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Author Topic: [1050 TH] BitMinter.com [1% PPLNS,Pays TxFees +MergedMining,Stratum,GBT,vardiff]  (Read 775120 times)
AaronS
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July 24, 2014, 04:41:00 AM
 #7121

Just because a graph has peaks and troughs does not mean it is systematic.  Any "two-week cycle" you are seeing is something your mind is imposing on the data.  Do a Fourier analysis and I am pretty sure you will find there is no reliable pattern.  I can say this with conviction because it is a random event and by definition will have no pattern.

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christhegoth
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July 24, 2014, 04:54:17 AM
 #7122

Just because a graph has peaks and troughs does not mean it is systematic.  Any "two-week cycle" you are seeing is something your mind is imposing on the data.  Do a Fourier analysis and I am pretty sure you will find there is no reliable pattern.  I can say this with conviction because it is a random event and by definition will have no pattern.



That 10 day bad patch, clearly shown on the graph, is a certain width. Compare it with other peaks & troughs & there is something there.

However, if it's only 10 days long ( for example ) then any pool-jumping will be pointless.

If you're above average for a month that's worth a look at.

Luck-wise for the past 2 months we've been average. We gained the lead we have due to a 2 month-ish period before then where we had good luck. The gradient on the bottom graph shows the changes. Which is differentiation, not Fourier.

We had a steeper gradient 2 months back to get to the gap between green & yellow we now have. That gap has stayed fairly constant in size since, which clearly shows us shifting back to average ( or it would have got bigger or smaller ).

It still means you have to use monthly averages to get a real view of what's going on.
DrHaribo
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July 24, 2014, 05:41:48 AM
 #7123

That 10 day bad patch, clearly shown on the graph, is a certain width. Compare it with other peaks & troughs & there is something there.

You're imagining things. It can look like there is a system or pattern when you look at a small set of data. In reality it's random.

However, if it's only 10 days long ( for example ) then any pool-jumping will be pointless.

No, it doesn't matter how long. If you could pool-hop based on predicting luck then you'd make a lot more coins. But you can't.

There's already many users struggling to understand random/luck. Some believe bad luck doesn't occur naturally and ask if the pool is broken every time we have bad luck.

Don't make it worse by suggesting luck is predictable and follows a certain pattern. It doesn't.

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hayseed
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July 24, 2014, 03:03:13 PM
 #7124

ChrisTheGoth

You keep reminding us you are an engineer but keep saying things that make no sense.  Huh

Please do the research/reading before posting things that are not correct or worst laughably absurd.

That post where you suggest the doc should obtain "easy" blocks instead of the "hard" ones for example does not sound like
someone with an engineering degree that has been mining for 8 months. There is no ACME brand of
soft chewy blocks. Hashing is not a card game where if you have seen three aces there is only 1 left.

Random is Random. (Im not going to debate which source of random algorithm should be used, thats best left for compiler theory, Don Keene Knuth and the NSA to argue over).

little pool vs big pool is do you want 1% of 1,000 or .001% of 1,000,000?

If you don't know, ask a question like "Why are the blocks taking longer to solve?" or "Can we pick easy vs hard blocks?"

or even better look back through the old posts. where these questions have been asked and answered over and over again.

Mining is now at the stage where all the easy gold laying on the ground has been claimed. Only people willing to
invest time/money and/or have the patience to stick it out should be involved.

==
Edit - corrected name, Don Knuth instead of what I listed as Don Keene.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming


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July 24, 2014, 05:59:44 PM
 #7125

ChrisTheGoth

You keep reminding us you are an engineer but keep saying things that make no sense.  Huh

Please do the research/reading before posting things that are not correct or worst laughably absurd.

That post where you suggest the doc should obtain "easy" blocks instead of the "hard" ones for example does not sound like
someone with an engineering degree that has been mining for 8 months. There is no ACME brand of
soft chewy blocks. Hashing is not a card game where if you have seen three aces there is only 1 left.

Random is Random. (Im not going to debate which source of random algorithm should be used, thats best left for compiler theory, Don Keene and the NSA to argue over).

little pool vs big pool is do you want 1% of 1,000 or .001% of 1,000,000?

If you don't know, ask a question like "Why are the blocks taking longer to solve?" or "Can we pick easy vs hard blocks?"

or even better look back through the old posts. where these questions have been asked and answered over and over again.

Mining is now at the stage where all the easy gold laying on the ground has been claimed. Only people willing to
invest time/money and/or have the patience to stick it out should be involved.







Amen
jjdub7
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July 24, 2014, 08:07:24 PM
 #7126

For further reference: http://organofcorti.blogspot.com/

Courtesy of OrganofCorti.  Seriously, everyone on this thread should have a quick read if you haven't previously.  Great blog that addresses the luck issue along with a bunch of other mining statistics by pool - gives an awesome "big picture" view of the mining network.

"Chips, picking chips off rocky thumbnail, chips.
Horrid! And gold flushed more." - James Joyce
DrHaribo
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July 24, 2014, 09:32:43 PM
 #7127

Organofcorti is awesome. Read his stuff.

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Biosman
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July 26, 2014, 05:15:35 PM
 #7128

To solve my problem, last posting here:

I think i found now the problem:

@home where all the Antminers are working, i got this Ports openend shown with a PortScanner:
Quote
SSH:            Port 22
HTTP:    Port 80
SMTP:   Port 25
POP3:    Port 110
NNTP:   Port 119
IMAP:    Port 143

@office i got on my Laptop computer only this ports openend:
Quote
SMTP:      Port 25
HTTP:       Port 80
POP3:       Port 110
NNTP:       Port 119
EPMAP:       Port 135
Shared Network Folder:    Port 139
IMAP:       Port 143
HTTPS:       Port443

You see for Antminer ist SSH Port 22 missing, can i change this in a way?

Thx for your answer
Gr€€tz Biosman
DrHaribo
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July 26, 2014, 05:58:56 PM
 #7129

Why do you need SSH on your laptop?

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hayseed
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July 26, 2014, 08:14:14 PM
 #7130

To solve my problem, last posting here:

I think i found now the problem:

@home where all the Antminers are working, i got this Ports openend shown with a PortScanner:
Quote
SSH:            Port 22
HTTP:    Port 80
SMTP:   Port 25
POP3:    Port 110
NNTP:   Port 119
IMAP:    Port 143

@office i got on my Laptop computer only this ports openend:
Quote
SMTP:      Port 25
HTTP:       Port 80
POP3:       Port 110
NNTP:       Port 119
EPMAP:       Port 135
Shared Network Folder:    Port 139
IMAP:       Port 143
HTTPS:       Port443

You see for Antminer ist SSH Port 22 missing, can i change this in a way?

Thx for your answer
Gr€€tz Biosman

no inbound ports need opened for bitcoin pool mining.

If you do not have your own router installed ignore the following:

You may be the victim of double NAT. What happens is most cable modem/dsl companies now install by default a
 modem with builtin router/wireless. If you have your own router behind this you end up with double NAT which
can cause havoc with various protocols.

From home:

To diagnose first goto http://www.ipchicken.com and write down the ip address it shows. Now goto your router
config page. (see your manual or use their wonky software helpers) Look for a summary or status page that
shows the WAN (not LAN) status. It should show the same ip address you wrote down from ipchicken. If it
shows 10.x.x.x or anything different then the number from ipchicken then your are being double NATed. Call
your provider and ask them to place the cable/dsl modem in bridge mode. Be aware that some DSL providers
require ppoe connections and you will need their assistance to configure that on your router. (Yes Verizon I'm
 looking at YOU). Make sure the wireless if the cable modem has it is also disabled. (Your router should have
its own wireless or you can get a plain Access Point at staples etc.

Comcast causes this issue a lot if their installation/repair techs are not smart enough to see that you already have a router.

If you can't  get team viewer or logmein to work at home. This almost 100% the problem.

I have had comcast replace cable modems at a several client residences, Next I get a call that vpn connections or
certain sites requiring SSL can't be used or just wonky unreliable web behavior. BINGO comcast strikes again.
christhegoth
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July 28, 2014, 06:28:57 PM
 #7131

ChrisTheGoth

You keep reminding us you are an engineer but keep saying things that make no sense.  Huh

Please do the research/reading before posting things that are not correct or worst laughably absurd.

That post where you suggest the doc should obtain "easy" blocks instead of the "hard" ones for example does not sound like
someone with an engineering degree that has been mining for 8 months. There is no ACME brand of
soft chewy blocks. Hashing is not a card game where if you have seen three aces there is only 1 left.

Random is Random. (Im not going to debate which source of random algorithm should be used, thats best left for compiler theory, Don Keene and the NSA to argue over).

little pool vs big pool is do you want 1% of 1,000 or .001% of 1,000,000?

If you don't know, ask a question like "Why are the blocks taking longer to solve?" or "Can we pick easy vs hard blocks?"

or even better look back through the old posts. where these questions have been asked and answered over and over again.

Mining is now at the stage where all the easy gold laying on the ground has been claimed. Only people willing to
invest time/money and/or have the patience to stick it out should be involved.







Amen


Sorry to burst the bubble but I watch 3 pools. And...

Where do you think this work is coming from? Someone is handing over a lump of data and a lump of Cash, & one of Satoshi's mates is then putting the data out to be crunched by us. Bitcoin is also issued as payment for this work.

I agree luck is difficult to predict, but of the 3 pools I watch Bitminter is keeping it's lead as the luckiest. Others may spot this & join us.

Seeing as Doc gets the work from somewhere I think it only reasonable to see if we can improve the supply ( although it turns out we can't ). Worth a punt anyway.

Bitcoin doesn't magically fall from the sky. Someone designed this thing & feeds work into it. And that work is ordered by someone. Who pays. It may look random, but what if it's rigged to help the little guy ( for example )?

The fact you don't seem to get this is a bit of a worry, but there you go.

There's no need to insult my intellect. I know how this product works, and am running tests to get real results ( rather than quoting wikipedia ). That's what engineers do.

So far Bitminter is having the best luck. If that changes in a 'good month bad month' way I know I won't be the only miner to consider moving. Such is life.

Ignore this at your peril.
eleuthria
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July 28, 2014, 06:31:45 PM
 #7132

Seeing as Doc gets the work from somewhere I think it only reasonable to see if we can improve the supply ( although it turns out we can't ). Worth a punt anyway.

Bitcoin doesn't magically fall from the sky. Someone designed this thing & feeds work into it. And that work is ordered by someone. Who pays. It may look random, but what if it's rigged to help the little guy ( for example )?

Uhmm...you should probably do some research before making foolish statements like the above.  Nobody "feeds work" into Bitcoin.  It is not "ordered" by anybody.

R.I.P. BTC Guild, 2011 - 2015.
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christhegoth
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July 28, 2014, 06:38:39 PM
 #7133

Seeing as Doc gets the work from somewhere I think it only reasonable to see if we can improve the supply ( although it turns out we can't ). Worth a punt anyway.

Bitcoin doesn't magically fall from the sky. Someone designed this thing & feeds work into it. And that work is ordered by someone. Who pays. It may look random, but what if it's rigged to help the little guy ( for example )?

Uhmm...you should probably do some research before making foolish statements like the above.  Nobody "feeds work" into Bitcoin.  It is not "ordered" by anybody.

So Satoshi built this thing & just feeds in junk data? I find that hard to believe.
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July 28, 2014, 07:35:10 PM
 #7134

So Satoshi built this thing & just feeds in junk data? I find that hard to believe.

I find it hard to believe somebody with over 60 posts has absolutely no clue how mining works and thinks somebody is feeding work into it, or especially that Satoshi is somehow involved in the creation of new blocks/work.  You should probably spend some time reading up on it: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide


TL;DR:  The work is random.  You are not accomplishing anything other than taking randomish data, increasing a counter, and producing a random result, hoping it's good enough.  The input data is "randomish" because it's part random and part network activity, which is not knowable in advance (so somewhat random), though it does carry meaning (so not complete random garbage).

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christhegoth
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July 28, 2014, 07:41:39 PM
 #7135

So Satoshi built this thing & just feeds in junk data? I find that hard to believe.

I find it hard to believe somebody with over 60 posts has absolutely no clue how mining works and thinks somebody is feeding work into it, or especially that Satoshi is somehow involved in the creation of new blocks/work.

The original paper ( I just refreshed my memory by re-reading it ) says 'same equation over & over'.

But...

I find it hard to believe that that much crypto-power is just 'making it up'. We are a huge problem-solving network, & only the man at the top gets to see it all. I think the original paper has been worked on since then.

Or I need to stop watching X-Files re-runs. It's one of the two.

I'm not the only one to have asked what the point was. It can't just be 'building security'.

Or maybe I'm wrong. I'll keep running my tests & see I guess.

Anyway, Bitminter is outperforming Ghash. That's worth a 'hurrah' at least.


To clarify:  From the 'encryption' viewpoint we are encrypting a file so that it cannot be counterfeited.  And it's a race against the hackers we must never lose.  But what is in the original file?

This would be a pretty bad-ass data storage network in the cloud let's face it.

From the 'decryption' viewpoint we're crunching through all this math.  What if we just decoded some terrorist stuff for The NSA without even knowing?  Serious question.

Crypto is an interesting place.



Most likely we'll never know, but there you go.  I guess some people are more curious than others.
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July 28, 2014, 08:39:54 PM
 #7136

There is no encryption involved in Bitcoin.
As Eleuthria said, you are clueless.

christhegoth
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July 28, 2014, 08:41:17 PM
 #7137

So Satoshi built this thing & just feeds in junk data? I find that hard to believe.

I find it hard to believe somebody with over 60 posts has absolutely no clue how mining works and thinks somebody is feeding work into it, or especially that Satoshi is somehow involved in the creation of new blocks/work.  You should probably spend some time reading up on it: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide


TL;DR:  The work is random.  You are not accomplishing anything other than taking randomish data, increasing a counter, and producing a random result, hoping it's good enough.  The input data is "randomish" because it's part random and part network activity, which is not knowable in advance (so somewhat random), though it does carry meaning (so not complete random garbage).

We're part of a hugely powerful encryption network, paid to keep encrypting, and the original file is just junk?

Or...

It's sensitive data being placed in a hugely advanced cloud-based safe, knowing the blockchain can be used to track all parts of the file for recovery.

The 'federal reserve' is all us miners ( thought of as 1 entity ) being given cash to encrypt in theory, but what if there is more to it then that?  An ultra-secret data-storage bin that hackers just won't be able to crack is worth a few quid...

Hence my feeling that someone is being paid to issue BTC etc if you see what I mean.
DrHaribo
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July 28, 2014, 08:46:15 PM
 #7138

Christhegoth, you need to read up on bitcoin and mining on the bitcoin wiki and bitcoin stack exchange. There's a lot of good information out there that can tell you exactly how things work. No need to guess. You can also ask here if there's anything you want to know. I'm happy to explain and so are many others. If you are unsure about something then just ask a question.

Here are some links you may find interesting:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/148/what-exactly-is-mining

You could also read the source code of several mining clients on github if you really want to get into the details.

Are we getting our work from Satoshi?

No. The Bitminter server puts together the data explained in the links above according to the bitcoin rules for a block. It generates a lot of different variations, and your mining client uses this data to generate even more variations of a block. For some of the data there is only one valid value at a given point in time. Some data is just random. And then there are all the transactions. If we mine a transaction you made then our work data was influenced by your transaction. Can you send a "magic" transaction that would instantly cause our pool to find a block? Read on...

Can't we improve luck by changing the data we are hashing, if we have bad luck?

We are changing the data. Billions of times per second. That's what mining is.

Can we improve our luck by changing the block data we mine in a certain way?

Only if you find a shortcut/weakness in SHA-256. There's a good explanation of the algorithm at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sha-256 - see if you can find a weakness in it. Weakness meaning that you can with better than 50/50 chance determine whether a certain input will give a low hash without actually doing the calculations. Please, no superstition or hand waving. One person once told me that if the pool has bad luck I need to generate a new pool wallet to break out of the bad luck. While you can't break or weaken SHA-256 by saying random things that indicate severe mental problems, you CAN perhaps do it if you are able to untangle all those calculations involved and find a way to predict how a certain input will have certain effects on the output.

Isn't future luck influenced by past luck or other past events?

No. You are suffering from gambler's fallacy or something similar. Probability is hard for humans to understand, and misconceptions are extremely common. That's how Las Vegas was built.

Wikipedia has a lot of interesting info on how your own mind can screw you over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

I'm not the only one to have asked what the point was. It can't just be 'building security'.

Yes, it can.

But that's not a small thing. The way the blockchain solves the Byzantine Generals Problem is a breakthrough in computer science. This may be more important than Bitcoin itself.

To understand how impossible it is to use bitcoin mining hardware to do something useful other than mining, read my answer to this question on the bitcoin stack exchange:

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/7236/bitcoin-mining-asics-used-for-cryptographic-application-rainbow-tables

From the 'decryption' viewpoint we're crunching through all this math.  What if we just decoded some terrorist stuff for The NSA without even knowing?  Serious question.

No, that's not what we're doing. You can't even crack a simple password with a bitcoin miner (see above).

Most likely we'll never know, but there you go.  I guess some people are more curious than others.

We know exactly which data is being hashed. We know the exact algorithm we are using. And we know what the purpose is. We also know it is damn near impossible to use this for anything else (see above).

If you are a little more curious you can just look all of this up. All of this information is right in front of you. It's not at all like we'll never know.

▶▶▶ Bitminter.com - Your trusted mining pool since 2011.
christhegoth
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July 28, 2014, 08:56:28 PM
 #7139

There is no encryption involved in Bitcoin.
As Eleuthria said, you are clueless.

Then why is it called a crypto-currency if there is no crypto involved?  Serious question.

Peer-to-peer, and having each pool ensuring the black chain cannot be re-written by sharing the burden ( the 50% rule ), still leaves a ton of data moving around.  How do you know what piece is what, without it having a 'label'.

That label is the crypto-hash from what I understand.  And it must not be faked.  Which is the race against the hackers who want to fake it.  If they crack it they can create a duplicate ( and double-spend creeps in ).

Insult me all you want but what you are saying doesn't add up.  No encryption in Bitcoin?  Yeah, right.  That number constantly changes so that the hackers can't keep up.  It's a crypto-cipher.  A hugely complex one.


And as a cipher it needs to be wrapped around something.  They can't exist on their own.  SHA-256 is not AES or Whirlpool sure, but it's still a cipher.


If there is no encryption in Bitcoin then all you'd need is 4 large bodies holding the blockchain between them, and then after that just slip yer mates a few coins ( it's just numbers, nothing more.  The address where it goes from and to are the only bit that matters if it's purely tracking lumps of unencrypted date ).  Instead we have a system where huge amounts of math is carried out, and you are rewarded for doing that math.  And it's getting more and more complex, as difficulty goes up.

Why all the math for a simple tracking system for unencrypted packets?


Sorry dude, but there's more to it then that.  With any currency only the issuer should be able to issue said currency; or it's over, as hyper-inflation comes in due to mass counterfeiting.  Bitcoin is no different.  That cipher exists for a reason.

If there is no encryption then why is difficulty going up?
christhegoth
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July 28, 2014, 08:59:27 PM
 #7140

Christhegoth, you need to read up on bitcoin and mining on the bitcoin wiki and bitcoin stack exchange. There's a lot of good information out there that can tell you exactly how things work. No need to guess. You can also ask here if there's anything you want to know. I'm happy to explain and so are many others. If you are unsure about something then just ask a question.

Here are some links you may find interesting:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/148/what-exactly-is-mining

You could also read the source code of several mining clients on github if you really want to get into the details.

Are we getting our work from Satoshi?

No. The Bitminter server puts together the data explained in the links above according to the bitcoin rules for a block. It generates a lot of different variations, and your mining client uses this data to generate even more variations of a block. For some of the data there is only one valid value at a given point in time. Some data is just random. And then there are all the transactions. If we mine a transaction you made then our work data was influenced by your transaction. Can you send a "magic" transaction that would instantly cause our pool to find a block? Read on...

Can't we improve luck by changing the data we are hashing, if we have bad luck?

We are changing the data. Billions of times per second. That's what mining is.

Can we improve our luck by changing the block data we mine in a certain way?

Only if you find a shortcut/weakness in SHA-256. There's a good explanation of the algorithm at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sha-256 - see if you can find a weakness in it. Weakness meaning that you can with better than 50/50 chance determine whether a certain input will give a low hash without actually doing the calculations. Please, no superstition or hand waving. One person once told me that if the pool has bad luck I need to generate a new pool wallet to break out of the bad luck. While you can't break or weaken SHA-256 by saying random things that indicate severe mental problems, you CAN perhaps do it if you are able to untangle all those calculations involved and find a way to predict how a certain input will have certain effects on the output.

Isn't future luck influenced by past luck or other past events?

No. You are suffering from gambler's fallacy or something similar. Probability is hard for humans to understand, and misconceptions are extremely common. That's how Las Vegas was built.

Wikipedia has a lot of interesting info on how your own mind can screw you over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

I'm not the only one to have asked what the point was. It can't just be 'building security'.

Yes, it can.

But that's not a small thing. The way the blockchain solves the Byzantine Generals Problem is a breakthrough in computer science. This may be more important than Bitcoin itself.

To understand how impossible it is to use bitcoin mining hardware to do something useful other than mining, read my answer to this question on the bitcoin stack exchange:

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/7236/bitcoin-mining-asics-used-for-cryptographic-application-rainbow-tables

From the 'decryption' viewpoint we're crunching through all this math.  What if we just decoded some terrorist stuff for The NSA without even knowing?  Serious question.

No, that's not what we're doing. You can't even crack a simple password with a bitcoin miner (see above).

Most likely we'll never know, but there you go.  I guess some people are more curious than others.

We know exactly which data is being hashed. We know the exact algorithm we are using. And we know what the purpose is. We also know it is damn near impossible to use this for anything else (see above).

If you are a little more curious you can just look all of this up. All of this information is right in front of you. It's not at all like we'll never know.



Thank you Dr, I shall have a read when I get some time.

You gotta admit though, it would make a seriously swanky crypto-vault in the Cloud.  A hash that can never be broken, as it is updated so quickly by us miners, is a very nice hash...
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