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Author Topic: [1050 TH] BitMinter.com [1% PPLNS,Pays TxFees +MergedMining,Stratum,GBT,vardiff]  (Read 775315 times)
philipma1957
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June 19, 2014, 03:58:59 AM
 #6581

I am getting concerned about multipool being on this pool in this environment.

As a pass through of other miners, multipool could be 90% block withholders and we would never know.  And they make an ideal cut out.  Who am I to sue if it turn out they are collecting rewards that are rightfully mine?

I am all for bitminter growing, but I don't like the sudden appearance of 20% of the pool from a group that doesn't deliver a block solution for weeks.

Let's have a serious discussion about the merits of allowing pass through accounts.  What is the up side of having them on bitminter?  And how long do we allow them to collect 17% of all rewards while their history has them contributing a statistically unlikely amount themselves?

     While not blaming them  and not saying they are innocent.

  A smaller pool  like bitminter  in the 1200 th size can be damaged pretty heavy by a group of this size 250th.

Here is the rub  we (meaning the doctor ) says they are bad and bans them.  

 They form 25-30     8th to 10 th  accounts  under the radar   of block making since 8th needs months to make a block.

 And bitminter has shit luck for 2 months.  what is the defense for this?

 one a miner can belong to 5 or six pools or 10 pools  since the  'BL'  cannon here may be a 250th canon it can attack just one pool our size  not 4 or 5 pools.

What can bitminter do.  Against  multipool which is a big group it is easy to see  he could ban them.  

 I rather he does not  I rather he builds the solo mining connection  have asked and begged for.  I rather anyone that want to use that connection can use it.  

And here is your kicker anyone in the top 100 miners is auto switched to the solo pool if his luck has gone to  shit.   This works to lessen the power of a BL canon.

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1480963722
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June 19, 2014, 04:24:12 AM
 #6582

Any word on what is causing the outage?
HerbPean
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June 19, 2014, 04:27:24 AM
 #6583

Any word on what is causing the outage?


Didn't find any informations about it anywhere. Switched my gears to an other pool for the moment.
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June 19, 2014, 04:28:48 AM
 #6584


Still down here too.

It's 6:30 AM in Germany. I know what I'd be doing at that time of the day.  Wink

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June 19, 2014, 04:30:26 AM
 #6585


Still down here too.

It's 6:30 AM in Germany. I know what I'd be doing at that time of the day.  Wink

Indeed Cheesy
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June 19, 2014, 04:36:52 AM
 #6586

ugh........ I am sad that my backup pool is Cex.io now :-( get it together  Bitminter :-(

5 year @.004  pbmining.com?ref=tek101
MoreBloodWine
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June 19, 2014, 04:37:12 AM
 #6587


Still down here too.

It's 6:30 AM in Germany. I know what I'd be doing at that time of the day.  Wink
Blunt n coffee lol ?

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June 19, 2014, 04:49:17 AM
 #6588

It's back !
organofcorti
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June 19, 2014, 05:20:39 AM
 #6589

I am getting concerned about multipool being on this pool in this environment.

Don't be.

As a pass through of other miners, multipool could be 90% block withholders and we would never know.  And they make an ideal cut out.  Who am I to sue if it turn out they are collecting rewards that are rightfully mine?

I don't think anyone mining on Multipool would have any idea how to with-hold a block. the idea that hundreds of miners would do it in concert from one proxy is just silly.


I am all for bitminter growing, but I don't like the sudden appearance of 20% of the pool from a group that doesn't deliver a block solution for weeks.

Let's have a serious discussion about the merits of allowing pass through accounts.  What is the up side of having them on bitminter?  And how long do we allow them to collect 17% of all rewards while their history has them contributing a statistically unlikely amount themselves?

If flound1129 posts the daily totals of d1 equivalent shares sent to Bitminter, I'll work it out for you.

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Entropy-uc
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June 19, 2014, 05:30:46 AM
 #6590

I am getting concerned about multipool being on this pool in this environment.

Don't be.

As a pass through of other miners, multipool could be 90% block withholders and we would never know.  And they make an ideal cut out.  Who am I to sue if it turn out they are collecting rewards that are rightfully mine?

I don't think anyone mining on Multipool would have any idea how to with-hold a block. the idea that hundreds of miners would do it in concert from one proxy is just silly.


I am all for bitminter growing, but I don't like the sudden appearance of 20% of the pool from a group that doesn't deliver a block solution for weeks.

Let's have a serious discussion about the merits of allowing pass through accounts.  What is the up side of having them on bitminter?  And how long do we allow them to collect 17% of all rewards while their history has them contributing a statistically unlikely amount themselves?

If flound1129 posts the daily totals of d1 equivalent shares sent to Bitminter, I'll work it out for you.

Dude I like you, but you don't have over $1M invested in hardware.  You also haven't been cheated out of over 100 BTC by the withholder on BTCguild.  I'm not going to hang around for months of 'bad luck'. If Flound wants to put all his rewards into escrow until we see several weeks of expected or better solved blocks that's great.  Otherwise we will move on if nothing is done to ensure everything is above board.
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June 19, 2014, 05:42:20 AM
 #6591

If flound1129 posts the daily totals of d1 equivalent shares sent to Bitminter, I'll work it out for you.

Dude I like you, but you don't have over $1M invested in hardware.  You also haven't been cheated out of over 100 BTC by the withholder on BTCguild.  I'm not going to hang around for months of 'bad luck'. If Flound wants to put all his rewards into escrow until we see several weeks of expected or better solved blocks that's great.  Otherwise we will move on if nothing is done to ensure everything is above board.

Sure, I don't have a huge investment mining investment, and I can understand how worried you might be about not making a return on that investment. But when you have that much cash on the line, the last thing you want is to be forced into an action without being certain that it's the right action.

Here's what I'd do if I had that much of an investment:
1. Mine at multiple pools, and not just some of the larger ones. It will reduce your variance further, and if you mine at multiple small pools you'll be helping the network (at the cost of extra accounting, I guess).
2. Get good at calculating statistics and making decisions based on those stats. I'm be happy to help you with that, it's not hard once you get some basic ideas.

I hope this doesn't come off as smart-assery, it's not. I just hate to see people make decisions that are not based on facts. I'll help you calculate the results that should inform the facts if you like.



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Entropy-uc
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June 19, 2014, 05:51:14 AM
 #6592

If flound1129 posts the daily totals of d1 equivalent shares sent to Bitminter, I'll work it out for you.

Dude I like you, but you don't have over $1M invested in hardware.  You also haven't been cheated out of over 100 BTC by the withholder on BTCguild.  I'm not going to hang around for months of 'bad luck'. If Flound wants to put all his rewards into escrow until we see several weeks of expected or better solved blocks that's great.  Otherwise we will move on if nothing is done to ensure everything is above board.

Sure, I don't have a huge investment mining investment, and I can understand how worried you might be about not making a return on that investment. But when you have that much cash on the line, the last thing you want is to be forced into an action without being certain that it's the right action.

Here's what I'd do if I had that much of an investment:
1. Mine at multiple pools, and not just some of the larger ones. It will reduce your variance further, and if you mine at multiple small pools you'll be helping the network (at the cost of extra accounting, I guess).
2. Get good at calculating statistics and making decisions based on those stats. I'm be happy to help you with that, it's not hard once you get some basic ideas.

I hope this doesn't come off as smart-assery, it's not. I just hate to see people make decisions that are not based on facts. I'll help you calculate the results that should inform the facts if you like.




Sigh.  I understand the statistics just fine.  Go ahead and calculate the probability of 250 Th/s solving only one block in that last 2 weeks if you want to put an exact number on the situation.  I don't need to do that.

It's serious enough, and there is enough solid information that there are active bad actors in play that the default assumption is that there is a problem.  I don't need to prove something in court.  I need to protect my investments.  If Bitminter can't do that, we will move on.
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June 19, 2014, 06:00:14 AM
 #6593

If flound1129 posts the daily totals of d1 equivalent shares sent to Bitminter, I'll work it out for you.

Dude I like you, but you don't have over $1M invested in hardware.  You also haven't been cheated out of over 100 BTC by the withholder on BTCguild.  I'm not going to hang around for months of 'bad luck'. If Flound wants to put all his rewards into escrow until we see several weeks of expected or better solved blocks that's great.  Otherwise we will move on if nothing is done to ensure everything is above board.

Sure, I don't have a huge investment mining investment, and I can understand how worried you might be about not making a return on that investment. But when you have that much cash on the line, the last thing you want is to be forced into an action without being certain that it's the right action.

Here's what I'd do if I had that much of an investment:
1. Mine at multiple pools, and not just some of the larger ones. It will reduce your variance further, and if you mine at multiple small pools you'll be helping the network (at the cost of extra accounting, I guess).
2. Get good at calculating statistics and making decisions based on those stats. I'm be happy to help you with that, it's not hard once you get some basic ideas.

I hope this doesn't come off as smart-assery, it's not. I just hate to see people make decisions that are not based on facts. I'll help you calculate the results that should inform the facts if you like.




Sigh.  I understand the statistics just fine.  Go ahead and calculate the probability of 250 Th/s solving only one block in that last 2 weeks if you want to put an exact number on the situation.  I don't need to do that.

*Very* roughly, 1 in 600.

It's serious enough, and there is enough solid information that there are active bad actors in play that the default assumption is that there is a problem.  I don't need to prove something in court.  I need to protect my investments.  If Bitminter can't do that, we will move on.

There was one block withholder, and there's no proof that he was a bad actor - from everything I've read he was mining in ignorance of the state of his hardware, and fixed it once he was told there was a problem. The fact he isn't going to repay the coin he took reveals him as a bad actor of sorts, but I don't think you were referring to that.

Although now that they've shown it's possible, it might encourage others to do the same, I suppose, for the same reason any vandal does what they do.  

However, if these guys that are mining on multipool can do a withholding attack, why not just mine on Bitminter (or any another pool they want to attack) directly? It's much harder to detect a block withholding attack performed by many smaller miners.

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flound1129
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June 19, 2014, 06:22:33 AM
 #6594

If flound1129 posts the daily totals of d1 equivalent shares sent to Bitminter, I'll work it out for you.

Dude I like you, but you don't have over $1M invested in hardware.  You also haven't been cheated out of over 100 BTC by the withholder on BTCguild.  I'm not going to hang around for months of 'bad luck'. If Flound wants to put all his rewards into escrow until we see several weeks of expected or better solved blocks that's great.  Otherwise we will move on if nothing is done to ensure everything is above board.

Sure, I don't have a huge investment mining investment, and I can understand how worried you might be about not making a return on that investment. But when you have that much cash on the line, the last thing you want is to be forced into an action without being certain that it's the right action.

Here's what I'd do if I had that much of an investment:
1. Mine at multiple pools, and not just some of the larger ones. It will reduce your variance further, and if you mine at multiple small pools you'll be helping the network (at the cost of extra accounting, I guess).
2. Get good at calculating statistics and making decisions based on those stats. I'm be happy to help you with that, it's not hard once you get some basic ideas.

I hope this doesn't come off as smart-assery, it's not. I just hate to see people make decisions that are not based on facts. I'll help you calculate the results that should inform the facts if you like.




Sigh.  I understand the statistics just fine.  Go ahead and calculate the probability of 250 Th/s solving only one block in that last 2 weeks if you want to put an exact number on the situation.  I don't need to do that.

It's serious enough, and there is enough solid information that there are active bad actors in play that the default assumption is that there is a problem.  I don't need to prove something in court.  I need to protect my investments.  If Bitminter can't do that, we will move on.

We have not had 250TH on for 2 weeks.

Let's get some facts straight here.  

- We have been on Bitminter since 6/8.  That's TEN DAYS, not two weeks.
- Our full BTC hashpower when the multiport is on BTC has been around 250-260TH only for about the past 3-4 days.  We started around 250, but quicky dropped to 180 or so due to issues with some of our largest hashers (share difficulty and lack of payments as we got into Bitminter's PPLNS).  We did not return to 250-260 until a few days ago when a couple of large miners moved back on.

We are also only on BTC about 75% of the time.  When we are not on BTC, we drop to about 60-80TH.

Here are the times and share totals for our last 11 payouts.  I am not including the first payout because there are some cex.io shares in there.

+------------+------------+
| time       | diff       |  hashrate
+------------+------------+
| 1402976440 | 4994809796 |  232TH
| 1402884360 | 1001667156 |  213TH
| 1402864221 |  816766904 |  151TH
| 1402841060 | 5430841828 |  256TH
| 1402750091 | 1868165592 |  222TH
| 1402714003 |  786003908 |   191TH
| 1402696412 |  596053444 |   144TH
| 1402678654 | 1687252668 |  165TH
| 1402634828 | 4918289664 |  232TH
| 1402544157 | 1333388092 |  179TH
| 1402512186 | 5877865492 |  283TH

I calculate an average hashrate of 217TH.

We have found:
1 BTC block (difficulty 11,756,551,916)
3 NMC blocks (difficulty 2x 8,769,848,379, 1x7,400,501,702)

Now you are proposing that some large percentage of over 1000 miners whose average hashrate is well under 200GH are not only block withholding, but selectively withholding only when we're on BTC.  And only sometimes.  Also they're not withholding NMC blocks.  Do you realize how ridiculous this all sounds?

Do you realize that eventually the luck will even out, and we'll find a larger than average number of blocks in some abitrary time period?  And you'd rather us be on some other pool when that happens?

Maybe you should sit back, relax and let the law of averages that is the main fucking reason for pool mining in the first place do its job.  And call off this stupid witch hunt.  Or I will take my hash elsewhere, and you will miss out.

This is like a guy beating his wife because she brought home scratch offs that didn't win him anything and telling her she better bring back more winners next time.

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June 19, 2014, 06:38:44 AM
 #6595

Apologies for downtime today.

Looks like a network issue of some sort with one of the servers.

More redundancy is coming soon to prevent this sort of thing!

▶▶▶ Bitminter.com - Your trusted mining pool since 2011.
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June 19, 2014, 06:40:26 AM
 #6596

Here are the times and share totals for our last 11 payouts.  I am not including the first payout because there are some cex.io shares in there.

+------------+------------+
| time       | diff       |  hashrate
+------------+------------+
| 1402976440 | 4994809796 |  232TH
| 1402884360 | 1001667156 |  213TH
| 1402864221 |  816766904 |  151TH
| 1402841060 | 5430841828 |  256TH
| 1402750091 | 1868165592 |  222TH
| 1402714003 |  786003908 |   191TH
| 1402696412 |  596053444 |   144TH
| 1402678654 | 1687252668 |  165TH
| 1402634828 | 4918289664 |  232TH
| 1402544157 | 1333388092 |  179TH
| 1402512186 | 5877865492 |  283TH

I calculate an average hashrate of 217TH.


Using the difficulties for each day and the sum of work difficulties, I get  submitted/expected= 2.493172.

This has an upper tail probability of 0.08264739, meaning that once out of every 12 reruns of those eleven days you'd see multipool have this level of luck. Not very unlucky.

2.5*diff shares per round happens multiple times per day for many different pools (well, those that solve multiple blocks per day, anyway), so it shouldn't surprise us when a particular miner submits work equivalent to 2.5*network difficulty and only solves on block.

Sorry, Entropy-uc, I'm not seeing a problem here. There might be a problem but statistically there's nothing unusual going on. If submitted/expected reach 7.0 (one in a thousand) or 8.0 (one in three thousand), I'd start to worry.

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Entropy-uc
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June 19, 2014, 06:53:05 AM
 #6597

Here are the times and share totals for our last 11 payouts.  I am not including the first payout because there are some cex.io shares in there.

+------------+------------+
| time       | diff       |  hashrate
+------------+------------+
| 1402976440 | 4994809796 |  232TH
| 1402884360 | 1001667156 |  213TH
| 1402864221 |  816766904 |  151TH
| 1402841060 | 5430841828 |  256TH
| 1402750091 | 1868165592 |  222TH
| 1402714003 |  786003908 |   191TH
| 1402696412 |  596053444 |   144TH
| 1402678654 | 1687252668 |  165TH
| 1402634828 | 4918289664 |  232TH
| 1402544157 | 1333388092 |  179TH
| 1402512186 | 5877865492 |  283TH

I calculate an average hashrate of 217TH.


Using the difficulties for each day and the sum of work difficulties, I get  submitted/expected= 2.493172.

This has an upper tail probability of 0.08264739, meaning that once out of every 12 reruns of those eleven days you'd see multipool have this level of luck. Not very unlucky.

2.5*diff shares per round happens multiple times per day for many different pools (well, those that solve multiple blocks per day, anyway), so it shouldn't surprise us when a particular miner submits work equivalent to 2.5*network difficulty and only solves on block.

Sorry, Entropy-uc, I'm not seeing a problem here. There might be a problem but statistically there's nothing unusual going on. If submitted/expected reach 7.0 (one in a thousand) or 8.0 (one in three thousand), I'd start to worry.


That's nice for you.  If I wait for that level of proof I'm out enough money to buy a luxury car, or a small house.

Flound can't even vouch for who his users are.  So how can he attest that they aren't using defective gear, or intentionally withholding?

Your numbers say that 92% of the time a honest contributor would not have performed so poorly.  That's is enough reason to freeze payments until more information is available.
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June 19, 2014, 07:07:56 AM
 #6598

Here are the times and share totals for our last 11 payouts.  I am not including the first payout because there are some cex.io shares in there.

+------------+------------+
| time       | diff       |  hashrate
+------------+------------+
| 1402976440 | 4994809796 |  232TH
| 1402884360 | 1001667156 |  213TH
| 1402864221 |  816766904 |  151TH
| 1402841060 | 5430841828 |  256TH
| 1402750091 | 1868165592 |  222TH
| 1402714003 |  786003908 |   191TH
| 1402696412 |  596053444 |   144TH
| 1402678654 | 1687252668 |  165TH
| 1402634828 | 4918289664 |  232TH
| 1402544157 | 1333388092 |  179TH
| 1402512186 | 5877865492 |  283TH

I calculate an average hashrate of 217TH.


Using the difficulties for each day and the sum of work difficulties, I get  submitted/expected= 2.493172.

This has an upper tail probability of 0.08264739, meaning that once out of every 12 reruns of those eleven days you'd see multipool have this level of luck. Not very unlucky.

2.5*diff shares per round happens multiple times per day for many different pools (well, those that solve multiple blocks per day, anyway), so it shouldn't surprise us when a particular miner submits work equivalent to 2.5*network difficulty and only solves on block.

Sorry, Entropy-uc, I'm not seeing a problem here. There might be a problem but statistically there's nothing unusual going on. If submitted/expected reach 7.0 (one in a thousand) or 8.0 (one in three thousand), I'd start to worry.


That's nice for you.  If I wait for that level of proof I'm out enough money to buy a luxury car, or a small house.

Flound can't even vouch for who his users are.

Are you suggesting DrHaribo or any public pool operator knows every user that hashes on his pool?  How exactly would you propose I 'vouch for' 1000 different users?  You ask for the impossible.

Your numbers say that 92% of the time a honest contributor would not have performed so poorly.  That's is enough reason to freeze payments until more information is available.

No it isn't.  And the second that happens we're gone.

So how can he attest that they aren't using defective gear, or intentionally withholding?

I can attest to that because we spend about 25-30% of the time mining other currencies and find blocks just fine and at a statistically normal rate.  It would be quite an elaborate scheme for someone to create hundreds of user accounts and configure them to do what you're suggesting.

I suspect you've either got paranoia issues, or you're just trying to justify to yourself moving to some other pool with lower payout variance.  I don't blame you, if I spent a million on hardware I'd think about doing the same thing every time the pool I was using had an unlucky streak.  But there's no need for you to involve me in it.

Biitminter is struggling enough to grow as it is, I know if I was a new user considering using this pool and came into this thread and read the last few pages, I probably wouldn't be putting my hash here.  You people are vicious.

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June 19, 2014, 07:10:31 AM
 #6599

That's nice for you.  If I wait for that level of proof I'm out enough money to buy a luxury car, or a small house.

Flound can't even vouch for who his users are.  So how can he attest that they aren't using defective gear, or intentionally withholding?

Your numbers say that 92% of the time a honest contributor would not have performed so poorly.  That's is enough reason to freeze payments until more information is available.

Wait you're not even mining here?  Your motives just became even more questionable.

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June 19, 2014, 07:21:37 AM
 #6600

1.   I do not believe in block withholding because it does not make sense for the actor.  
2.  My assertion has always been effed up gear.   That assertion fits this scenario (and many others).   I suspect the people that effed up BTCguild and Bitminter likely lied that they did not sell gear to the public and many people have the same shit miners they were using.   MAYBE they fixed it with a small tweak to their software and maybe they sent that fix to all the people that bought their gear, and maybe they did not.    Having solo mined until size pushed us out, I can assure everyone that there is NO way someone with 2PH/s (7 weeks ago) was not solo mining.    That means the person KNEW his gear did not work but did not know why.   So, finding the solution 24 hours after Michael and wizkid called them out on it, seems very unlikely to me.     They likely just pointed other miners at elegies (miners they could have bought with days of mining income from these pools) to satisfy wizkid "that the software bug was small and see I can solve blocks now?"

3.   Multipool, take your scratch ticket analogy and shove it.   That is stupid.   How about this.   It is like one (very fat) member of the community eating every day but only contributing to the food budget one in 11 days when over time everyone must contribute equally (to their percentage of consumption).   Koi has NEVER gone that long without contributing.   So, why don't you shut up until you have hit a block EVERY day for 6 days and are on the other side of this luck curve.

TL DR: A.  MultiPool has gone thru some bad luck.   Luck like that happens about 1 in 11 times.    Multipool is due for some good luck.    Expect to see them banging a lot of blocks out in the next week.  
B.  Still believe someone is selling equipment that does not work.   Many people do not believe that because they have never seen anyone in bit coin (especially producers of miners) be incompetent or unethical (so this could never happen).
Largest argument against this is "the design is so simple, it is hard to fuck up".....    Left turns are easy to make to but I still see a lot of wrecks at stoplights.   Ask GM how simple an ignition switch is to design.



too many grasshoppers, not enough ants
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