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Author Topic: [1050 TH] BitMinter.com [1% PPLNS,Pays TxFees +MergedMining,Stratum,GBT,vardiff]  (Read 775282 times)
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June 14, 2014, 09:13:28 PM
 #6521

So ... to completely change the subject ... nice to see those VERY outdated KNC adverts on the site have been resold ... to ... Spondoolies-Tech.

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MoreBloodWine
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June 14, 2014, 10:27:01 PM
 #6522

I believe there was a proposal to make block withholding impossible, but it required a hardfork. Maybe that's what needs to be done.
If this can bee one, I say every pool should do it. If they did I'd lik to think everyones numbers would change for the better.

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June 14, 2014, 10:45:02 PM
 #6523

WTF?  Who are you to call him out?   Get your ass educated about what is going on over the last 6 months and has been CAUGHT (by users) at other pools.
Your comment is ignorant and rude.   Guess michael (the owner of BTCGuild) is a conspiracy nut too?


the conspiracy theory I was referring to is that Multipool is the bad actor who has been withholding blocks, if he had done a fucking iota of research then he would be able to see that could not be the case.

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June 14, 2014, 10:46:35 PM
 #6524

You do not understand what you are talking about. And at the same time you do understand what you are talking about.  Wow that must be very hard on your mind.
Here is what I agree with.   Your theory is: multi pool's gear sucks and they jump all over the place with  broken gear they are stuck with  
Let me clear this up.  Multipool doesn't own any gear, other than a 30GH BFL little single in my garage.
We proxy BTC hash from our users to larger pools (currently Bitminter) to reduce our Bitcoin payout variance.  We pay out the rewards received from the larger pool on a proportional basis based on shares submitted since the previous payout.
Our software is a custom stratum proxy that rewrites the worker name and saves each share to the DB on our side after the share is accepted by Bitminter.  Other Stratum commands are proxied unaltered.
There is no way for me to withhold blocks, in fact doing so would decrease our profits by around 20% so what incentive do I have to do this on a pool whose sole purpose is to maximize profits?  I would lose all my users.  Shit, I lost about 50TH just because of the low profits while getting into Bitminter's PPLNS.  We have been operating for over a year.  If you want to know how trustworthy we are, come into our thread and ask our users. You people need to do some research before throwing around baseless accusations (not you Philip, but others).
If there were complete sets of miners that did not solve blocks, that has nothing to do with YOUR PERSONAL (or your pool's) trustworthiness.   You would not know.   If you are a stratified pool of small users, it is VERY unlikely that your pool would be a good place to "hide" bad gear, it would take too much effort making many accounts.

I obviously cannot tell for sure if my users are withholding blocks, but I am well aware of the possibility that this can happen and am on the lookout for it.  Our largest regular user only has 15TH, and he was one of our first and most loyal miners, so it's very unlikely that this could be a major issue.

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June 15, 2014, 01:19:05 AM
 #6525

guys it can very well be that a common miner such as the s-1 could have a flawed batch.  in theory 16ph of the entire network consists of s-1's.  1 chip run may have been for shit.

Or someone ran a batch of chips behind the back of any major chip/gear builder knocked off a ton of gear .  Lets say the dragon miners had a 'sneak batch built'

Anyone that has worked in a small factory knows what I am talking about.  Do A run of product behind the owners back.  So I am in China I knocked off a ton of bootleg dragon miners...  I set them up to solo mine  lets say back in feb.  they work ..  I feel good as I have a great score.  then they stop working lets  say at the 2.4 level mentioned.  I now have good money and 1000 dragon miners that don make blocks...  Since I am a clever weasel I decide to mine my gear at BTCguild or cex.io guild   leaching off the backs of the good gear miners most likely this has happen and is true.
  Just not exactly the way I just said.   But I theorize there is a lot of dud miners that can't make a block.

Now hear this the best way to combat this is for  all major pools to offer a solo fork.     why because the scumbag weasel dude with his 1-2ph of shit gear  can never make a block solo mining ........  he has to mine on shared pools to earn money.


So once again I ask all large  pools known to pay off and not steal the blocks to do this offer a solo fork to all of us.. 

 In fact force it on us  for a week  every 10th week  at least for that one week out of ten   the weasel won't steal from us. 

Sounds radical but it only mathematically hurts a guy with 'dead for blocks- live for hash gear'   If the dark miner or the 2ph of 'bad' gear is out there this method kills it while it is used.

Obviously pool ops have the truth about how hard it is to do my suggestion but one thing is for sure a rouge miner with shit gear gets  fully burned since he has no one to leach from while this happens.

Anyone that has an understanding of game theory should see my suggestion works.  So I ask all big ops why don't you do this or a variation of this.

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June 15, 2014, 03:49:35 AM
 #6526

guys it can very well be that a common miner such as the s-1 could have a flawed batch.  in theory 16ph of the entire network consists of s-1's.  1 chip run may have been for shit.

Or someone ran a batch of chips behind the back of any major chip/gear builder knocked off a ton of gear .  Lets say the dragon miners had a 'sneak batch built'

Anyone that has worked in a small factory knows what I am talking about.  Do A run of product behind the owners back.  So I am in China I knocked off a ton of bootleg dragon miners...  I set them up to solo mine  lets say back in feb.  they work ..  I feel good as I have a great score.  then they stop working lets  say at the 2.4 level mentioned.  I now have good money and 1000 dragon miners that don make blocks...  Since I am a clever weasel I decide to mine my gear at BTCguild or cex.io guild   leaching off the backs of the good gear miners most likely this has happen and is true.
  Just not exactly the way I just said.   But I theorize there is a lot of dud miners that can't make a block.

Now hear this the best way to combat this is for  all major pools to offer a solo fork.    why because the scumbag weasel dude with his 1-2ph of shit gear  can never make a block solo mining ........  he has to mine on shared pools to earn money.


So once again I ask all large  pools known to pay off and not steal the blocks to do this offer a solo fork to all of us..  

 In fact force it on us  for a week  every 10th week  at least for that one week out of ten   the weasel won't steal from us.  

Sounds radical but it only mathematically hurts a guy with 'dead for blocks- live for hash gear'   If the dark miner or the 2ph of 'bad' gear is out there this method kills it while it is used.

Obviously pool ops have the truth about how hard it is to do my suggestion but one thing is for sure a rouge miner with shit gear gets  fully burned since he has no one to leach from while this happens.

Anyone that has an understanding of game theory should see my suggestion works.  So I ask all big ops why don't you do this or a variation of this.

I don't really see how a chip that can calculate SHA-256 hashes would be able to have a flaw like this.  AIUI, the ASIC doesn't know about difficulty, it just hashes difficulty 1 shares.  ASICs don't actually assemble the block, the pool does that work.  The mining software just grabs whatever hashes it finds that are above the share difficulty from the ASIC and submits them to the pool..

Someone with a better understanding of this might be able to correct me but AFAIK, it would have to either work or not work.

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June 15, 2014, 05:20:25 AM
 #6527

I don't really see how a chip that can calculate SHA-256 hashes would be able to have a flaw like this.  AIUI, the ASIC doesn't know about difficulty, it just hashes difficulty 1 shares.  ASICs don't actually assemble the block, the pool does that work.  The mining software just grabs whatever hashes it finds that are above the share difficulty from the ASIC and submits them to the pool..

Someone with a better understanding of this might be able to correct me but AFAIK, it would have to either work or not work.

In the case of the April-May block withholding, the error, as I was told, was due to the software not the hardware.  The software was checking the difficulty of results the hardware returned, and was having an error when the representation of the difficulty was > uint32 for the share, causing it to be discarded even though it was still a valid result.

At the *hardware* level, I'm doubtful this is possible without being explicitly designed to do so.  ASICs are very dumb, as you pointed out.  They should only care about diff >= 1, and report the result back to the software for further checking and submission.

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June 15, 2014, 09:08:31 AM
 #6528

We had some good luck and then some even luck. We haven't been having bad luck for some time. Look at the reward graphs at https://bitminter.com/stats/rewards

The slightly bad luck I was talking about was Multipool alone. With their mining alone it is slightly bad luck that they haven't found a block yet. Which is completely normal.

The pool as a whole is currently having even luck, though, because others are finding blocks. Some miners in the pool are having good luck while others have bad luck. The pool is evening this out. This is one of the nice things that pools do.

The reward model at Bitminter does not punish you for coming and going. You can mine part time at the pool and the pay is still fair. Mining more does not change the pay you are going to get for the mining you already did. Like Blackjack, the hands you already played are done, there is no way to influence the winnings any more for those hands. But unlike Blackjack, the winnings have not been revealed yet. If you mine 12 hours per day at Bitminter, then you will on average make 50% of what you would get for mining 24/7. I say on average because the luck during the 50% you mine may not be the same as the 50% you don't mine. But over time that will even out.

Bitminter is not vulnerable to pool hopping. That's a technique where you hop between pools, timing it so that you get paid more than your fair share. The reward model at Bitminter was chosen specifically to make this impossible. Whether you earn more or less at Bitminter when you jump in and out of the pool is completely random. There is no way to predict whether mining pay at Bitminter in the next few hours will be higher or lower than other pools. Pool hopping was a way that some miners earned a lot more bitcoins at vulnerable pools, at the cost of the miners who were not pool hopping. I believe there are still a couple pools that are vulnerable to pool hopping. But the art/scam of pool hopping seems to be forgotten - I don't think any miners are doing it anymore.

You could try to switch between pools based on religious or superstitious beliefs. Maybe you believe luck is not random but related to karma or sin. Or maybe you believe that past luck influences future luck (this is called Gambler's Fallacy, you can read about it on Wikipedia). Maybe you belong to a Cargo Cult (also on Wikipedia) - you saw someone restart his miner and then he found a block. Now you believe restarting the miner increases the chance of finding blocks. All those beliefs go against all logic and science. I have never heard of anyone who is able to earn more bitcoins this way. But if you want to try it, you can. Bitminter won't punish your earnings for mining part time in the pool.


Doc are you even paying attention?

BTCGuild and Eligius users have both been ripped off by large users that withheld blocks.

Being suspicious of an anonymous company that somehow claims to charge no fees mining BTC at your pool (guaranteeing themselves a 1% loss if they are honest) isn't being superstitious, it's being practical.

a) I'm not anonymous, I'm very un-anonymous actually.  Multipool is a company registered as CryptoFish, LLC in California as it states in our footer.  I've posted numerous articles online using my real name.  Our thread here is 275 pages: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=167635.0

b) I don't lose anything by proxying our users' hash to Bitminter, the fees are passed through to the miners.

c) My fee is 1.5% on the altcoins that we mine when we're not on bitcoin.  People also donate.  Since we're on Bitcoin about 80% of the time, we need a stable pool we can proxy our hash to.  Unfortunately in order to attract BTC hash, you cannot charge a fee.  This is because the two of the three largest BTC pools do not charge a fee (cex and Eligius).  So it's not a simple matter to attract hashrate if you charge a fee, especially if you're a 'new' pool.  Many miners expect the pool to be free, which is not reasonable imo, but there it is.

d) We just moved to Bitminter a few days ago and I still haven't had time to change all the references to cex.io on the site.  We are fully on Bitminter now, assuming we're on BTC and not on another coin.

We have never mined on BTC Guild.
Sorry if I'm slow here, but how can b and c both be true? Your members are charged a fee for mining BTC.
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June 15, 2014, 01:20:37 PM
 #6529

I don't really see how a chip that can calculate SHA-256 hashes would be able to have a flaw like this.  AIUI, the ASIC doesn't know about difficulty, it just hashes difficulty 1 shares.  ASICs don't actually assemble the block, the pool does that work.  The mining software just grabs whatever hashes it finds that are above the share difficulty from the ASIC and submits them to the pool..

Someone with a better understanding of this might be able to correct me but AFAIK, it would have to either work or not work.

In the case of the April-May block withholding, the error, as I was told, was due to the software not the hardware.  The software was checking the difficulty of results the hardware returned, and was having an error when the representation of the difficulty was > uint32 for the share, causing it to be discarded even though it was still a valid result.

At the *hardware* level, I'm doubtful this is possible without being explicitly designed to do so.  ASICs are very dumb, as you pointed out.  They should only care about diff >= 1, and report the result back to the software for further checking and submission.

So you are giving the best reason yet for a major pool to run a solo fork for miners.  A  large 2000th mining op burns massive power to do 2000th ,

  but if software can never make a block  happen as you say your were told that was the case in april + may.

 BTW I mined 1th at that pool from APRIL 20th until today so I had bad luck for 40 plus days. Your pools could be sued by miners that were affected.  I could argue in a courtroom your pool failed to safeguard it's hash rate  from 'bad software'.

 If you had offered miners the easy option to use a solo-fork our problem would be of our own choice to not use your solo fork.  Without that offer every major pool could have this happen:

 Someone trashes  the luck with shit software for a month  or two causing 80 percent luck vs 96-102 percent luck.

The cat is out of the bag that  'bad' software 'bad' chip 'bad' pcb board 'bad' gear and does not matter what the reason it only matters that  a false hashrate can be done to a pool…

 This is true.   So all  pool operators need to  protect miners and themselves from false hashrate happening.  (FACT not BS)  

  A solo fork option  is  one method of protection .

  So once again I ask for the bigger pools to offer it.  

 This issue is not going to leave BTC.

  I am  giving a method of protection that would work against a high hash rate rig that never makes a block.

Okay how about the big guy cex.io     he decides to give any large pool shit luck  shoots 300th of shit gear at the pool for a month  and the pool has terrible luck.  why not  cex.io could do this to bit minter in a heartbeat……  make 50 miners up  with 1 to 10 th each  .  

they never hit a block  we abandon  bitminter  and go to cex.io     ..

Fact of the matter  this is doable   ,but  if bitminter had a solo fork  sending a stack of shit miners against that does nothing.  Zip  only person hurt is the guy sending the bad gear.


Tell me I am not correct if I am not.  Fact is I am correct.

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June 16, 2014, 03:11:46 AM
 #6530

Was there a reason we switched pools to bitminter? I don't really mind just curious. I went back 5 pages or so and just seen talk of no blocks. So I thought I would just go ahead and ask.

Steve

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June 16, 2014, 03:53:07 AM
 #6531

Was there a reason we switched pools to bitminter? I don't really mind just curious. I went back 5 pages or so and just seen talk of no blocks. So I thought I would just go ahead and ask.

Steve

You're looking for the multipool thread...
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June 16, 2014, 08:25:30 AM
 #6532

Sorry if I'm slow here, but how can b and c both be true? Your members are charged a fee for mining BTC.

The assertion being answered was that I must be ripping people off if I don't charge an additional fee for my Bitcoin port.

The point was that we don't charge additional fees on BTC+NMC rewards.

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June 16, 2014, 08:28:21 AM
 #6533

Was there a reason we switched pools to bitminter? I don't really mind just curious. I went back 5 pages or so and just seen talk of no blocks. So I thought I would just go ahead and ask.

Steve

Asked and answered here:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=167635.msg7265722#msg7265722

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June 16, 2014, 07:59:56 PM
 #6534

Sorry if I'm slow here, but how can b and c both be true? Your members are charged a fee for mining BTC.
The assertion being answered was that I must be ripping people off if I don't charge an additional fee for my Bitcoin port.
The point was that we don't charge additional fees on BTC+NMC rewards.
No the assertion is your pool is really unlucky and you still have to prove us wrong.
And also why does your hash rate swing over 50% constantly?
Can anyone explain to me the logic of joining a pool to mine at another pool?   Really?
Until multi pool because overly lucky, I still do not have a great feeling about them in general.

too many grasshoppers, not enough ants
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June 16, 2014, 08:51:02 PM
 #6535

Sorry if I'm slow here, but how can b and c both be true? Your members are charged a fee for mining BTC.
The assertion being answered was that I must be ripping people off if I don't charge an additional fee for my Bitcoin port.
The point was that we don't charge additional fees on BTC+NMC rewards.
No the assertion is your pool is really unlucky and you still have to prove us wrong.
And also why does your hash rate swing over 50% constantly?
Can anyone explain to me the logic of joining a pool to mine at another pool?   Really?
Until multi pool because overly lucky, I still do not have a great feeling about them in general.

The reason people mine at Multipool is because we switch their hash to other coins automatically when they're more profitable to mine than BTC.  That's also why our hashrate on BTC changes.

Why should anyone take anything you have to say seriously when it's clear you don't even know how the pool (or math, for that matter) works and can't be bothered to do the tiniest amount of research to back up your assertions?

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June 16, 2014, 08:57:47 PM
 #6536

Sorry if I'm slow here, but how can b and c both be true? Your members are charged a fee for mining BTC.
The assertion being answered was that I must be ripping people off if I don't charge an additional fee for my Bitcoin port.
The point was that we don't charge additional fees on BTC+NMC rewards.
No the assertion is your pool is really unlucky and you still have to prove us wrong.
And also why does your hash rate swing over 50% constantly?
Can anyone explain to me the logic of joining a pool to mine at another pool?   Really?
Until multi pool because overly lucky, I still do not have a great feeling about them in general.
The reason people mine at Multipool is because we switch their hash to other coins automatically when they're more profitable to mine than BTC.  That's also why our hashrate on BTC changes.
Why should anyone take anything you have to say seriously when it's clear you don't even know how the pool (or math, for that matter) works and can't be bothered to do the tiniest amount of research to back up your assertions?
Wow, some moron on the internet that attacked a bunch of people as "conspiracy theorists" when he had not even taken the time to educate himself what happened MONTHS earlier is calling me dumb.    Ouch.   That really hurts.
You are a fucking idiot.   Solve some blocks or STFU.   I am tired of carrying you.

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June 16, 2014, 09:05:56 PM
 #6537

Sorry if I'm slow here, but how can b and c both be true? Your members are charged a fee for mining BTC.
The assertion being answered was that I must be ripping people off if I don't charge an additional fee for my Bitcoin port.
The point was that we don't charge additional fees on BTC+NMC rewards.
No the assertion is your pool is really unlucky and you still have to prove us wrong.
And also why does your hash rate swing over 50% constantly?
Can anyone explain to me the logic of joining a pool to mine at another pool?   Really?
Until multi pool because overly lucky, I still do not have a great feeling about them in general.
The reason people mine at Multipool is because we switch their hash to other coins automatically when they're more profitable to mine than BTC.  That's also why our hashrate on BTC changes.
Why should anyone take anything you have to say seriously when it's clear you don't even know how the pool (or math, for that matter) works and can't be bothered to do the tiniest amount of research to back up your assertions?
Wow, some moron on the internet that attacked a bunch of people as "conspiracy theorists" when he had not even taken the time to educate himself what happened MONTHS earlier is calling me dumb.    Ouch.   That really hurts.
You are a fucking idiot.   Solve some blocks or STFU.   I am tired of carrying you.
At least every type of miner we have was tested and solved blocks solo mining.  You do not even know what crap you have throwing hashes. 
Right now you are just a free rider, a leach.   Contribute to the pool with some solved blocks and you might get a bit of respect.   You can do that simple math right?   

too many grasshoppers, not enough ants
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June 16, 2014, 09:10:09 PM
 #6538

Sorry if I'm slow here, but how can b and c both be true? Your members are charged a fee for mining BTC.
The assertion being answered was that I must be ripping people off if I don't charge an additional fee for my Bitcoin port.
The point was that we don't charge additional fees on BTC+NMC rewards.
No the assertion is your pool is really unlucky and you still have to prove us wrong.
And also why does your hash rate swing over 50% constantly?
Can anyone explain to me the logic of joining a pool to mine at another pool?   Really?
Until multi pool because overly lucky, I still do not have a great feeling about them in general.
The reason people mine at Multipool is because we switch their hash to other coins automatically when they're more profitable to mine than BTC.  That's also why our hashrate on BTC changes.
Why should anyone take anything you have to say seriously when it's clear you don't even know how the pool (or math, for that matter) works and can't be bothered to do the tiniest amount of research to back up your assertions?
Wow, some moron on the internet that attacked a bunch of people as "conspiracy theorists" when he had not even taken the time to educate himself what happened MONTHS earlier is calling me dumb.    Ouch.   That really hurts.
You are a fucking idiot.   Solve some blocks or STFU.   I am tired of carrying you.
At least every type of miner we have was tested and solved blocks solo mining.  You do not even know what crap you have throwing hashes. 
Right now you are just a free rider, a leach.   Contribute to the pool with some solved blocks and you might get a bit of respect.   You can do that simple math right?   

I don't care about your respect.  You're nobody as far as I am concerned.  If DrHaribo doesn't want us here, he can tell me and I'll find another pool.

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June 16, 2014, 09:16:08 PM
 #6539

Sorry if I'm slow here, but how can b and c both be true? Your members are charged a fee for mining BTC.
The assertion being answered was that I must be ripping people off if I don't charge an additional fee for my Bitcoin port.
The point was that we don't charge additional fees on BTC+NMC rewards.
No the assertion is your pool is really unlucky and you still have to prove us wrong.
And also why does your hash rate swing over 50% constantly?
Can anyone explain to me the logic of joining a pool to mine at another pool?   Really?
Until multi pool because overly lucky, I still do not have a great feeling about them in general.
The reason people mine at Multipool is because we switch their hash to other coins automatically when they're more profitable to mine than BTC.  That's also why our hashrate on BTC changes.
Why should anyone take anything you have to say seriously when it's clear you don't even know how the pool (or math, for that matter) works and can't be bothered to do the tiniest amount of research to back up your assertions?
Wow, some moron on the internet that attacked a bunch of people as "conspiracy theorists" when he had not even taken the time to educate himself what happened MONTHS earlier is calling me dumb.    Ouch.   That really hurts.
You are a fucking idiot.   Solve some blocks or STFU.   I am tired of carrying you.
At least every type of miner we have was tested and solved blocks solo mining.  You do not even know what crap you have throwing hashes. 
Right now you are just a free rider, a leach.   Contribute to the pool with some solved blocks and you might get a bit of respect.   You can do that simple math right?   
I don't care about your respect.  You're nobody as far as I am concerned.  If DrHaribo doesn't want us here, he can tell me and I'll find another pool.
I did not say you would gain my respect adam.   That will never happen after you attacked someone that was correct and you had NO IDEA what they were talking about yet you took it upon yourself to pontificate.   I meant others'.   
I only care that you contribute.   Consistently.   

too many grasshoppers, not enough ants
flound1129
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June 16, 2014, 09:17:46 PM
 #6540

Sorry if I'm slow here, but how can b and c both be true? Your members are charged a fee for mining BTC.
The assertion being answered was that I must be ripping people off if I don't charge an additional fee for my Bitcoin port.
The point was that we don't charge additional fees on BTC+NMC rewards.
No the assertion is your pool is really unlucky and you still have to prove us wrong.
And also why does your hash rate swing over 50% constantly?
Can anyone explain to me the logic of joining a pool to mine at another pool?   Really?
Until multi pool because overly lucky, I still do not have a great feeling about them in general.
The reason people mine at Multipool is because we switch their hash to other coins automatically when they're more profitable to mine than BTC.  That's also why our hashrate on BTC changes.
Why should anyone take anything you have to say seriously when it's clear you don't even know how the pool (or math, for that matter) works and can't be bothered to do the tiniest amount of research to back up your assertions?
Wow, some moron on the internet that attacked a bunch of people as "conspiracy theorists" when he had not even taken the time to educate himself what happened MONTHS earlier is calling me dumb.    Ouch.   That really hurts.
You are a fucking idiot.   Solve some blocks or STFU.   I am tired of carrying you.
At least every type of miner we have was tested and solved blocks solo mining.  You do not even know what crap you have throwing hashes. 
Right now you are just a free rider, a leach.   Contribute to the pool with some solved blocks and you might get a bit of respect.   You can do that simple math right?   
I don't care about your respect.  You're nobody as far as I am concerned.  If DrHaribo doesn't want us here, he can tell me and I'll find another pool.
I did not say you would gain my respect adam.   That will never happen after you attacked someone that was correct and you had NO IDEA what they were talking about yet you took it upon yourself to pontificate.   I meant others'.   
I only care that you contribute.   Consistently.   

I already explained what I was talking about, and that I was not calling the people talking about block withholding by OTHERS conspiracy theorists.  If you want to continue to misconstrue my comments then there is no point in responding to you anymore.

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