[ANN] Nxt :: descendant of Bitcoin

[snailbrain]

Here is an announcement of decentralized DNS -- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=323909.0

good luck with the project

with namecoin - you don't need to use browser plugins so you should probably edit that part out..
all you need is a DNS that supports namecoin..  you can run NMControl or other tools to do it all locally for complete trustlessness (it's a word?).. if you trust an external namecoin dns server, like Khal's, you can do a simple setup by using a browser plugin (this is maybe what you are talking about?)

[cunicula]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=297147.0

Would you consider implementing the hop protocol. It is a radical modification.

Similar goals to bitshares and mastercoin, but hop will actually work. Bitshares and mastercoin are failures in progress.

I think you need hop to oust bitcoin from the leaderboard. Lock-in is significant now. Marginally superior tech will lose to the incumbent, bitcoin.

Offer anything less than hop and you will be competing for second place. Why not aim higher?

[BCNext]

all you need is a DNS that supports namecoin..

It is still extra work done by a user, it doesn't matter if we call it "plugin", or "utility", or whatever.  I can not open http://dns.bit, but I will be able to open nxt-links.

I edited the OP.

[BCNext]

Would you consider implementing the hop protocol. It is a radical modification.

Thank you.  If this concept is viable I will put it into the first place in my to-do-after-the-launch list.

[snailbrain]

all you need is a DNS that supports namecoin..

It is still extra work done by a user, it doesn't matter if we call it "plugin", or "utility", or whatever.  I can not open http://dns.bit, but I will be able to open nxt-links.

I edited the OP.

that will be interesting: how you will be able to open the nxt-links without having to trust anybody, without any utilities or plugins

and how you will prevent someone registering the same name (or allow to change the old names values)

will keep watching

[cunicula]

Would you consider implementing the hop protocol. It is a radical modification.

Thank you.  If this concept is viable I will put it into the first place in my to-do-after-the-launch list.

If you are going to launch the coin first, the  it might be better to do it as a spin-off coin rather than directly in Nxt.
Or alternatively, you will need approval from users.

 It changes the inflation model. Holders of USD units of value are able to print 1 USD worth of Nxt. This means that the aggregate supply of Nxt fluctuates with the Nxt/USD exchange rate. That is a pretty substantial change.

[BCNext]

that will be interesting: how you will be able to open the nxt-links without having to trust anybody, without any utilities or plugins

Non-Nxt users have to trust Nxt bootstrapping nodes (but they won't notice this).  Nxt user can use their own Nxt client to resolve links.

and how you will prevent someone registering the same name (or allow to change the old names values)

Once someone registers a domain name noone else will be able to use the name to reassign the address.  The network will ignore all such attempts.

[BCNext]

If you are going to launch the coin first, the  it might be better to do it as a spin-off coin rather than directly in Nxt.
Or alternatively, you will need approval from users.

 It changes the inflation model. Holders of USD units of value are able to print 1 USD worth of Nxt. This means that the aggregate supply of Nxt fluctuates with the Nxt/USD exchange rate. That is a pretty substantial change.

Won't the concept work if I get rid of demurrage?

[cunicula]

Won't the concept work if I get rid of demurrage?

Suppose you issue an asset backed by nxt. There are three key questions:

Q1) What determines the price of the asset in terms of nxt?
A1) proof-of-stake voting; nxt owners have an incentive to report prices honestly because this increases the valu/usefulness of nxt.

Q2) Where does the nxt backing the asset come from?
A2) Assets are backed by the entire market capitalization of nxt.

Q3) What determines the amount of assets issued?
A3) The variable interest/demurrage ensures a stable supply as a percentage of market cap.

The interest/demurrage is  important for the following reasons:
a) if too many assets are issued the system can become insolvent provoking a bank-run. (demurrage prevents overissuance.)
b) if too few assets are issued, then the assets will be too scarce to be useful for txn purposes. Markets for the assets will be illiquid. (This is particularly important during bootstrapping.  Without interest, there is not going to be any incentive to hold the assets. You would either want Nxt or you would want the real assets. Interest encourages people to hold the assets dewpite their increased risk relative to the real thing.)

[BCNext]

I think I should hire someone to translate your whitepaper to a normal language understandable by an average person...

[klee]

I think I should hire someone to translate your whitepaper to a normal language understandable by an average person...

LMAO I feel so stupid here some times!

[BCNext]

After testing Nxt decentralized exchange I noticed that having no decimal places after the point is very inconvenient, because if an asset costs 10 NXT and you wish to sell it with profit the closest possible price is 11 NXT.  I will add "cents".

[R160K]

This project could be really interesting - especially the way that rather than "starting again" like most altcoins, it works by "transferring" existing bitcoins onto a new, more feature-rich chain. A couple of things I would like to ask/points I would like to make however:

1. What marketing/incentivisation are you planning to ensure a plentiful userbase?
I appreciate you are still in the development stage atm, but do you have any solid plans about this yet that would give potential investors confidence?

2. Is the domain name registration really any different to Namecoin? And is having a competing system really a good idea?
Your sole grievance with NMC appears to be that it is not AUTOMATICALLY browser-integrated. But your solution seems to amount to no more than installing some sort of browser plug-in alongside the client - I fail to see how this is not (trivially) possible with Namecoin? Anyone could just make an installer package that includes a .bit DNS resolver plug-in as well as namecoind/Namecoin-QT client. Also, your "no transfer" of domain names between addresses probably wouldn't work in practice, because people would simply sell the private keys for the addresses themselves.

Additionally, though I appreciate yours is only the second such system, is directly competing (at the moment) against Namecoin really a good idea? Namecoin right now is massively underdeveloped and underused, and offering an alternative at this stage could not only split developers and users between the projects, but would also decrease the value of NMC (because if R160K.bit was already taken, you could just buy R160K.nxt) and thus lessen interest. Although I feel competition is a good thing for crypto-development, I think it would be best to try and get Namecoin realising its full potential to get a feel for what's possible with decentralised DNS before competing away its users and developers. After all, DNS is different than coins: an altcoin directly competes AGAINST bitcoin as a potential store of value; but two DNS systems can complement each other: it is not a strict either/or whether to buy R160K.bit or R160K.nxt, you could have both if you wished; therefore, waiting for Namecoin to come along much further will not necessarily reduce the likelihood of people using NXT for domain names if it's implemented the future.

3. Will the file storage only be for "official" files (like the client), or will anyone be able to upload files?
I like the notion of storing the client on the blockchain - although this of course will only be the official client, and will not include any third-party clients. Also, if file storage ON THE BLOCKCHAIN is available to everyone, even if it is expensive, then the potential for blockchain bloat is enormous (also it will preclude the possibility of implementing some sort of mini-blockchain system). There is possibly an alternative - an idea I came up with a few days ago, though only managed to work out a couple of features (it may yet be impossible). (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=326808.0). The basic idea is that peers contribute storage space (measured in gibibytehours) and are rewarded for it in coins (could be a "coloured" altcoin on the NXT chain) which they can then either use to pay for file storage or can sell via exchanges to other users who want to buy storage. How the reward system should work, or the paying-for-storage, I have yet to devise; but I have already found a way to link uploaded files to coin addresses. I should warn you though, that idea is very rough (and possibly impossible) to implement.

4. What protocol improvements (over bitcoin) are you considering implementing?
You've already mentioned faster transaction times, PoS over PoW, and some new types of contracts; I think you also mentioned somewhere about coloured coins (or equivalent). But what about things like "mini-blockchain" (or one of the equivalent proposals like CoinWitness)? (Though in fairness that is perhaps best done on a client-level: users decide how much of the blockchain they want to validate and store locally, and the rest they get from their peers). What about "ZeroCoin" (although the current proposal is quite impractical due to validation times etc.)? What about "micro-payment channels"?

[BCNext]

1. What marketing/incentivisation are you planning to ensure a plentiful userbase?
I appreciate you are still in the development stage atm, but do you have any solid plans about this yet that would give potential investors confidence?

I am planning to have some cool features implemented by the end of November.  Everyone who gives them a try will definitely become an Nxt addict.  Sounds like a solid plan, doesn't it?

2. Is the domain name registration really any different to Namecoin? And is having a competing system really a good idea?
Your sole grievance with NMC appears to be that it is not AUTOMATICALLY browser-integrated. But your solution seems to amount to no more than installing some sort of browser plug-in alongside the client - I fail to see how this is not (trivially) possible with Namecoin? Anyone could just make an installer package that includes a .bit DNS resolver plug-in as well as namecoind/Namecoin-QT client.

It is arguable if Nxt DNS is really different to Namecoin.  But Nxt has one big advantage -- it will work from the box.  While Namecoin developers are talking/planning/dreaming I write the code.  I don't think Namecoin is a competitor, once Nxt DNS is launched NMC will become just an altcoin.

Also, your "no transfer" of domain names between addresses probably wouldn't work in practice, because people would simply sell the private keys for the addresses themselves.

How will you make sure the dude will not sell the private keys to someone else nor he use them for phishing?

3. Will the file storage only be for "official" files (like the client), or will anyone be able to upload files?
I like the notion of storing the client on the blockchain - although this of course will only be the official client, and will not include any third-party clients. Also, if file storage ON THE BLOCKCHAIN is available to everyone, even if it is expensive, then the potential for blockchain bloat is enormous (also it will preclude the possibility of implementing some sort of mini-blockchain system). There is possibly an alternative - an idea I came up with a few days ago, though only managed to work out a couple of features (it may yet be impossible). (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=326808.0). The basic idea is that peers contribute storage space (measured in gibibytehours) and are rewarded for it in coins (could be a "coloured" altcoin on the NXT chain) which they can then either use to pay for file storage or can sell via exchanges to other users who want to buy storage. How the reward system should work, or the paying-for-storage, I have yet to devise; but I have already found a way to link uploaded files to coin addresses. I should warn you though, that idea is very rough (and possibly impossible) to implement.

File storage will work for any files.  There is no difference what bloats the blockchain -- payment transactions or files.  It is okay while fees are paid.  Annual shrinking will get rid of all files so they must be uploaded again.  At the moment the blockchain is limited to 16 GiB per year, not a big deal to download 8 GiB in average.

4. What protocol improvements (over bitcoin) are you considering implementing?
You've already mentioned faster transaction times, PoS over PoW, and some new types of contracts; I think you also mentioned somewhere about coloured coins (or equivalent). But what about things like "mini-blockchain" (or one of the equivalent proposals like CoinWitness)? (Though in fairness that is perhaps best done on a client-level: users decide how much of the blockchain they want to validate and store locally, and the rest they get from their peers). What about "ZeroCoin" (although the current proposal is quite impractical due to validation times etc.)? What about "micro-payment channels"?

At the lowest level it is Messaging (includes contracts, file storage, DNS), Colored Coins, Voting System, Reputation System.  At higher (user-friendly) level it is Library, Shops (like decentralized app store), Asset Exchange, etc.  Extra functionality can be added via yet-to-be-nailed Service Providing based on subscription paid with NXT.  Mini-blockchains perfectly fit into Service Providing, by the way, big files can be stored with SP as well.

[BCNext]

UPDATE

Implemented Colored Coins.
Added two decimal places after the point.

We have to wait for changes in the client software.  The Russian guy who works on the client is on holidays (national holidays if I got him correctly).

[snailbrain]

1. What marketing/incentivisation are you planning to ensure a plentiful userbase?
I appreciate you are still in the development stage atm, but do you have any solid plans about this yet that would give potential investors confidence?

I am planning to have some cool features implemented by the end of November.  Everyone who gives them a try will definitely become an Nxt addict.  Sounds like a solid plan, doesn't it?

2. Is the domain name registration really any different to Namecoin? And is having a competing system really a good idea?
Your sole grievance with NMC appears to be that it is not AUTOMATICALLY browser-integrated. But your solution seems to amount to no more than installing some sort of browser plug-in alongside the client - I fail to see how this is not (trivially) possible with Namecoin? Anyone could just make an installer package that includes a .bit DNS resolver plug-in as well as namecoind/Namecoin-QT client.

It is arguable if Nxt DNS is really different to Namecoin.  But Nxt has one big advantage -- it will work from the box.  While Namecoin developers are talking/planning/dreaming I write the code.  I don't think Namecoin is a competitor, once Nxt DNS is launched NMC will become just an altcoin.

Also, your "no transfer" of domain names between addresses probably wouldn't work in practice, because people would simply sell the private keys for the addresses themselves.

How will you make sure the dude will not sell the private keys to someone else nor he use them for phishing?

3. Will the file storage only be for "official" files (like the client), or will anyone be able to upload files?
I like the notion of storing the client on the blockchain - although this of course will only be the official client, and will not include any third-party clients. Also, if file storage ON THE BLOCKCHAIN is available to everyone, even if it is expensive, then the potential for blockchain bloat is enormous (also it will preclude the possibility of implementing some sort of mini-blockchain system). There is possibly an alternative - an idea I came up with a few days ago, though only managed to work out a couple of features (it may yet be impossible). (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=326808.0). The basic idea is that peers contribute storage space (measured in gibibytehours) and are rewarded for it in coins (could be a "coloured" altcoin on the NXT chain) which they can then either use to pay for file storage or can sell via exchanges to other users who want to buy storage. How the reward system should work, or the paying-for-storage, I have yet to devise; but I have already found a way to link uploaded files to coin addresses. I should warn you though, that idea is very rough (and possibly impossible) to implement.

File storage will work for any files.  There is no difference what bloats the blockchain -- payment transactions or files.  It is okay while fees are paid.  Annual shrinking will get rid of all files so they must be uploaded again.  At the moment the blockchain is limited to 16 GiB per year, not a big deal to download 8 GiB in average.

4. What protocol improvements (over bitcoin) are you considering implementing?
You've already mentioned faster transaction times, PoS over PoW, and some new types of contracts; I think you also mentioned somewhere about coloured coins (or equivalent). But what about things like "mini-blockchain" (or one of the equivalent proposals like CoinWitness)? (Though in fairness that is perhaps best done on a client-level: users decide how much of the blockchain they want to validate and store locally, and the rest they get from their peers). What about "ZeroCoin" (although the current proposal is quite impractical due to validation times etc.)? What about "micro-payment channels"?

At the lowest level it is Messaging (includes contracts, file storage, DNS), Colored Coins, Voting System, Reputation System.  At higher (user-friendly) level it is Library, Shops (like decentralized app store), Asset Exchange, etc.  Extra functionality can be added via yet-to-be-nailed Service Providing based on subscription paid with NXT.  Mini-blockchains perfectly fit into Service Providing, by the way, big files can be stored with SP as well.

We could make namecoin work out of the box for browsing bit domains, and soon will do.. if the namecoin destroying feature is working "out of the box", i don't think this will be good enough.
but if you think you can get nxt to work flawlessly and without security issues, or years of scrutiny/bug fixing (ready for release) then well played. i look forward to seeing how it turns out

What you need to remember is that the namecoin community (devs)  are not in it to make a quick "buck"..
they are in it for a better world.. they are doing it for you, with virtually no donations or paid work..
You are not doing it a good service by those sort of comments.. are you saying we should give up now?

If you are in it for the community and not self gain you probably wouldn't say something like that IMO.. this sort of comment makes me think that Nxt is not an honest project (maybe this is just my own intuition)

[cunicula]

Listen he is really excited about what he is doing and wants it to succeed. You think this guy is in it mostly for the money?
That's ridiculous. The people who are in it for the money allocate 90% of their time to PR and 10% of their time to development.
The fact that PR is not so effective here strongly suggests that money is not the main objective.
(Go look at bitshares or [to a much lesser extent] mastercoin for a comparison)

[BCNext]

You are not doing it a good service by those sort of comments.. are you saying we should give up now?

Give up or do some coding.

If you are in it for the community and not self gain you probably wouldn't say something like that IMO

You are wrong.

this sort of comment makes me think that Nxt is not an honest project (maybe this is just my own intuition)

Depends on the point of view.  If you prefer to live in a world regulated by the government then this project is the most dishonest thing you have ever seen.

[snailbrain]

Listen he is really excited about what he is doing and wants it to succeed. You think this guy is in it mostly for the money?
That's ridiculous. The people who are in it for the money allocate 90% of their time to PR and 10% of their time to development.
The fact that PR is not so effective here strongly suggests that money is not the main objective.
(Go look at bitshares or [to a much lesser extent] mastercoin for a comparison)

come on mate.. unless you are actually his "vet" account, you can't really say that this is going to be better than bitshares (and i've read your bitshares ponzi threads)

Bitshares is at least professional/quality and bytemaster doesn't have a bad attitude

[cunicula]

Listen he is really excited about what he is doing and wants it to succeed. You think this guy is in it mostly for the money?
That's ridiculous. The people who are in it for the money allocate 90% of their time to PR and 10% of their time to development.
The fact that PR is not so effective here strongly suggests that money is not the main objective.
(Go look at bitshares or [to a much lesser extent] mastercoin for a comparison)

come on mate.. unless you are actually his "vet" account, you can't really say that this is going to be better than bitshares (and i've read your bitshares ponzi threads)

Bitshares is at least professional/quality and bytemaster doesn't have a bad attitude

I've stated my opinion clearly on both issues. You don't have to agree with me. Further discussion is moot.