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Author Topic: [TEK] TEKcoin Hi-PoS hybrid pos/pow no premine/ipo/ico  (Read 430406 times)
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crazyivan
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August 11, 2015, 08:44:24 PM
 #4061

Wow, what a dump. I see PoS diff very low recently, that must be the reason. What I don't understand is the fact PoS diff does not go up after so many stakes. Tek has not had 40% stake a long, long time ago.
The only thing I dislike with Tek is unlimited number of coins, this is very unusual in Crypto. Maybe the dev can look at this to change in one of future forks.

Ivan , what is your problem with Tek? You wouldnt like it if one of the devs from Tek came into the dmd thread and started to FUD. I am a holder of both DMD and Tek, so please stop the FUD here. Tek is a great coin as DMD is. If you dont like Tek, thats fine, keep it to yourself. Tek is a brilliant coin with an honest dev and an honest community as dmd is. If your looking to fud, go fud all those crap new scam coins out there, there are lots. Dont hurt a respected mature coin like tek. Thank you.

Vegas

I have no problem with TEK. Pls let us not go into that discussion again since I also hold both coins and neither of them looks great ATM.
I was not spreading any FUD, I just posted facts.



@ crazyivan

You horrible little toad-troll. You come in to this thread with your faint praise, peddling your piddling FUD. You consistently leave a gripe, while touting your loud diamond coin logo out of your tail-end. Don't you know that's bad manners?

Everyone's on to you, you creep.

@dave-ja-vu

Oh so sorry, I m gonna IMMEDIATELY remove my signature logo cause you do not like it. I m also going to immediately start caring what you think or what to see here or in any other thread.
SUCK MY BALLS MY FRIEND.

Cheers

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August 11, 2015, 08:47:17 PM
 #4062

Just to address some of the general questions, from my own experience, about tek staking. I have been involved with the coin since the november following it's launch. In that time, I have seen it go to dizzying prices and drop just as bad. I believe it was around 400 sats when I started mining it, and within a year was up to like .001 or higher. As POS rewards started exponentially increasing the coin supply, the prices dropped dramatically, but it has ALWAYS been cyclical. I think you see bill paying going on with that. Around the end and middle of the month, you see people dumping like madmen. Best time to buy Cheesy In between, they try to bring their balances back to where they want them, which is the best time to sell.

With the exception of GameCredits, al the coins I deal with outside of BTC are POS coins. Tek is BY FAR the easisest to stake. I have more than once even in times of high difficulty staked 1 coin. From watching it, and my own lacksadaisacal approach, I would guess that a great many people do NOT pay close attention to the diff. Those that do, get the greatest rewards. The rest of us are probably averaging 23 to 30 percent per month.

Of all the coins I play with, TEK still tops my list for POS coins, followed very closely by HyperStake. Hyp is a very different beast, and very HARD to stake. I shan't discuss that here, as it's out of place. I also like TRK and Version 2, but it's mainly because of their Dev, noise23. At this moment, they don't have great markets. TRK is rising pretty well, though, and might be that latecomer that surprises everyone. Vegas really likes Orbit, I have no experience with it. NXT scares me, but it has done well.

All in all, when I have spare BTC, I buy TEK ahead of all others.

Nice, thx for this info. Just be careful of people accusing you promote HYP, TRK or NXT cause u did mention those. Smiley

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August 11, 2015, 09:31:11 PM
 #4063

@ crazyivan

The difference is that Biomech was endorsing TEK above all other coins in the TEKcoin thread. You were making snide remarks about TEK in the TEKcoin thread, like the obnoxious troll that you are, while promoting your other coin with your banner arse-end.

I tell you what sunshine, let's continue this conversation in the Diamond coin thread.

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August 11, 2015, 10:09:31 PM
 #4064

Just to address some of the general questions, from my own experience, about tek staking. I have been involved with the coin since the november following it's launch. In that time, I have seen it go to dizzying prices and drop just as bad. I believe it was around 400 sats when I started mining it, and within a year was up to like .001 or higher. As POS rewards started exponentially increasing the coin supply, the prices dropped dramatically, but it has ALWAYS been cyclical. I think you see bill paying going on with that. Around the end and middle of the month, you see people dumping like madmen. Best time to buy Cheesy In between, they try to bring their balances back to where they want them, which is the best time to sell.

With the exception of GameCredits, al the coins I deal with outside of BTC are POS coins. Tek is BY FAR the easisest to stake. I have more than once even in times of high difficulty staked 1 coin. From watching it, and my own lacksadaisacal approach, I would guess that a great many people do NOT pay close attention to the diff. Those that do, get the greatest rewards. The rest of us are probably averaging 23 to 30 percent per month.

Of all the coins I play with, TEK still tops my list for POS coins, followed very closely by HyperStake. Hyp is a very different beast, and very HARD to stake. I shan't discuss that here, as it's out of place. I also like TRK and Version 2, but it's mainly because of their Dev, noise23. At this moment, they don't have great markets. TRK is rising pretty well, though, and might be that latecomer that surprises everyone. Vegas really likes Orbit, I have no experience with it. NXT scares me, but it has done well.

All in all, when I have spare BTC, I buy TEK ahead of all others.

Nice, thx for this info. Just be careful of people accusing you promote HYP, TRK or NXT cause u did mention those. Smiley

LOL!

I've been a bbs rat for 40 years. If I'm not gettin' trolled I figure I wasn't loud enough. I almost never take it personal. Those that know me know what kind of person I am, those that don't, fuck 'em with a lightpole.

The way you put things does come off a bit negative sometimes. No worries, some people just can't handle criticism, and I think even more just misinterpret.

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August 12, 2015, 06:09:38 AM
 #4065

Just to address some of the general questions, from my own experience, about tek staking. I have been involved with the coin since the november following it's launch. In that time, I have seen it go to dizzying prices and drop just as bad. I believe it was around 400 sats when I started mining it, and within a year was up to like .001 or higher. As POS rewards started exponentially increasing the coin supply, the prices dropped dramatically, but it has ALWAYS been cyclical. I think you see bill paying going on with that. Around the end and middle of the month, you see people dumping like madmen. Best time to buy Cheesy In between, they try to bring their balances back to where they want them, which is the best time to sell.

With the exception of GameCredits, al the coins I deal with outside of BTC are POS coins. Tek is BY FAR the easisest to stake. I have more than once even in times of high difficulty staked 1 coin. From watching it, and my own lacksadaisacal approach, I would guess that a great many people do NOT pay close attention to the diff. Those that do, get the greatest rewards. The rest of us are probably averaging 23 to 30 percent per month.

Of all the coins I play with, TEK still tops my list for POS coins, followed very closely by HyperStake. Hyp is a very different beast, and very HARD to stake. I shan't discuss that here, as it's out of place. I also like TRK and Version 2, but it's mainly because of their Dev, noise23. At this moment, they don't have great markets. TRK is rising pretty well, though, and might be that latecomer that surprises everyone. Vegas really likes Orbit, I have no experience with it. NXT scares me, but it has done well.

All in all, when I have spare BTC, I buy TEK ahead of all others.

Nice, thx for this info. Just be careful of people accusing you promote HYP, TRK or NXT cause u did mention those. Smiley

LOL!

I've been a bbs rat for 40 years. If I'm not gettin' trolled I figure I wasn't loud enough. I almost never take it personal. Those that know me know what kind of person I am, those that don't, fuck 'em with a lightpole.

The way you put things does come off a bit negative sometimes. No worries, some people just can't handle criticism, and I think even more just misinterpret.

There is a big difference between constructive criticism and trolling, don't you agree? If I am an investor and I hold TEK and I see something I do not like, for example unlimited number of coins, what course of actions should I take? 1) ask around and see if that issue might be fixed or at least explained to me why is it so, this way it might not be an issue anymore, 2) stay silent about it and hope things go well, 3) sell and get out

I would prefer option number 1 cause I hold TEK, I have almost ROIed from TEK and I do plan to increase my TEK holdings if everything goes well.

Actually the thing I hate the most is this communist style thinking, DONT ASK anything. As soon as you do, you are not welcome anymore. Well, I disagree and I will not let anyone silence me.

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August 12, 2015, 08:03:33 AM
 #4066

Just to address some of the general questions, from my own experience, about tek staking. I have been involved with the coin since the november following it's launch. In that time, I have seen it go to dizzying prices and drop just as bad. I believe it was around 400 sats when I started mining it, and within a year was up to like .001 or higher. As POS rewards started exponentially increasing the coin supply, the prices dropped dramatically, but it has ALWAYS been cyclical. I think you see bill paying going on with that. Around the end and middle of the month, you see people dumping like madmen. Best time to buy Cheesy In between, they try to bring their balances back to where they want them, which is the best time to sell.

With the exception of GameCredits, al the coins I deal with outside of BTC are POS coins. Tek is BY FAR the easisest to stake. I have more than once even in times of high difficulty staked 1 coin. From watching it, and my own lacksadaisacal approach, I would guess that a great many people do NOT pay close attention to the diff. Those that do, get the greatest rewards. The rest of us are probably averaging 23 to 30 percent per month.

Of all the coins I play with, TEK still tops my list for POS coins, followed very closely by HyperStake. Hyp is a very different beast, and very HARD to stake. I shan't discuss that here, as it's out of place. I also like TRK and Version 2, but it's mainly because of their Dev, noise23. At this moment, they don't have great markets. TRK is rising pretty well, though, and might be that latecomer that surprises everyone. Vegas really likes Orbit, I have no experience with it. NXT scares me, but it has done well.

All in all, when I have spare BTC, I buy TEK ahead of all others.

Nice, thx for this info. Just be careful of people accusing you promote HYP, TRK or NXT cause u did mention those. Smiley

LOL!

I've been a bbs rat for 40 years. If I'm not gettin' trolled I figure I wasn't loud enough. I almost never take it personal. Those that know me know what kind of person I am, those that don't, fuck 'em with a lightpole.

The way you put things does come off a bit negative sometimes. No worries, some people just can't handle criticism, and I think even more just misinterpret.

There is a big difference between constructive criticism and trolling, don't you agree? If I am an investor and I hold TEK and I see something I do not like, for example unlimited number of coins, what course of actions should I take? 1) ask around and see if that issue might be fixed or at least explained to me why is it so, this way it might not be an issue anymore, 2) stay silent about it and hope things go well, 3) sell and get out

I would prefer option number 1 cause I hold TEK, I have almost ROIed from TEK and I do plan to increase my TEK holdings if everything goes well.

Actually the thing I hate the most is this communist style thinking, DONT ASK anything. As soon as you do, you are not welcome anymore. Well, I disagree and I will not let anyone silence me.

Does DMD have a hard cap? Most pos coins do not

The following line is commonly mistaken as restricting the total supply. Which it does not.

https://github.com/DMDcoin/Diamond/blob/master/src/main.h#L38

As you can see by the following results its only a sanity check used for transactions. You cant create a single transaction greater than that size.

https://github.com/DMDcoin/Diamond/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=MAX_MONEY

Unless the following line which appears to be unique to dmd restricts it

https://github.com/DMDcoin/Diamond/blob/master/src/main.h#L39

But I dont see that referenced anywhere else in the codebase.

The pos reward allows for endless creation unless otherwise limited

https://github.com/DMDcoin/Diamond/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L996-L1015


Im not trying to jump in the debate or anything. Just curious if dmd did set a cap as PPC/NVC have no cap themselves and all these coins are based on them. Very few pos coins have any sort of a supply cap.
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August 12, 2015, 04:53:59 PM
 #4067


Does DMD have a hard cap? Most pos coins do not

The following line is commonly mistaken as restricting the total supply. Which it does not.

https://github.com/DMDcoin/Diamond/blob/master/src/main.h#L38

As you can see by the following results its only a sanity check used for transactions. You cant create a single transaction greater than that size.

https://github.com/DMDcoin/Diamond/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=MAX_MONEY

Unless the following line which appears to be unique to dmd restricts it

https://github.com/DMDcoin/Diamond/blob/master/src/main.h#L39

But I dont see that referenced anywhere else in the codebase.

The pos reward allows for endless creation unless otherwise limited

https://github.com/DMDcoin/Diamond/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L996-L1015


Im not trying to jump in the debate or anything. Just curious if dmd did set a cap as PPC/NVC have no cap themselves and all these coins are based on them. Very few pos coins have any sort of a supply cap.

The CIRCULATION_MONEY is an unused variable and is not unique to DMD, in fact it is in MINT which a large amount of PoS clones stem from used it as a calculation in the pow reward. As you pointed out DMD has no max supply, like almost every other PoS coin.

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August 13, 2015, 12:43:13 AM
 #4068

@mullick & @presstab

That is some good info!  Thanks!

There must be a way to add that into the DMD and/or TEK code though, right?

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August 13, 2015, 02:38:41 AM
 #4069

@mullick & @presstab

That is some good info!  Thanks!

There must be a way to add that into the DMD and/or TEK code though, right?

It would be easy to add but not practical

With bitcoin when the mining reward stops the only incentive to mine ad secure the network is transaction fees.

Transaction fees in PPC/NVC forks are destroyed. So if you set a cap on the supply there will be no incentive for anyone to secure the network

Eventually it SHOULD reach a point with enough adoption where the daily inflation is offset by the transaction fees being destroyed. So that in a way caps the supply but if difficulty drops then the chain is producing coins faster than it destroys them again


I guess you could set a cap. Then coins can only be produced as fast as they are destroyed. But I dont think it would be the best move
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August 13, 2015, 03:01:51 AM
 #4070

Sorry for my ignorance, but I don't understand.

I set my transaction fee to 1 TEK because I wanted to support the miners and with TEK, 1 coin is next to nothing.  Does this just get destroyed?

Why not keep transaction fees for the miners with TEK?  As more people stake the difficulty goes up and wouldn't that cap the supply?

I know this is the wrong thread for this, but since we are talking about it already.  I know the DMD developers plan on only having 4.32 million coins or something like that.  If I remember correctly from that thread they said they wouldn't be destroying any coins.

I think I am misunderstanding something fundamental here.  Why destroy them at all, and instead just say there is going to be 1 billion TEK or 4.32 million DMD?

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August 13, 2015, 03:47:54 AM
 #4071

Sorry for my ignorance, but I don't understand.

I set my transaction fee to 1 TEK because I wanted to support the miners and with TEK, 1 coin is next to nothing.  Does this just get destroyed?

Why not keep transaction fees for the miners with TEK?  As more people stake the difficulty goes up and wouldn't that cap the supply?

I know this is the wrong thread for this, but since we are talking about it already.  I know the DMD developers plan on only having 4.32 million coins or something like that.  If I remember correctly from that thread they said they wouldn't be destroying any coins.

I think I am misunderstanding something fundamental here.  Why destroy them at all, and instead just say there is going to be 1 billion TEK or 4.32 million DMD?


I am not entirely certain that network fees are destroyed in TEK. In general, what Mullick said is true, though. The point is an inflation control mechanism. Every transaction reduces the available supply by X amount, which offsets production to some degree. Thundertoe, are fees destroyed?

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August 13, 2015, 04:21:17 AM
 #4072

Sorry for my ignorance, but I don't understand.

I set my transaction fee to 1 TEK because I wanted to support the miners and with TEK, 1 coin is next to nothing.  Does this just get destroyed?

Why not keep transaction fees for the miners with TEK?  As more people stake the difficulty goes up and wouldn't that cap the supply?

I know this is the wrong thread for this, but since we are talking about it already.  I know the DMD developers plan on only having 4.32 million coins or something like that.  If I remember correctly from that thread they said they wouldn't be destroying any coins.

I think I am misunderstanding something fundamental here.  Why destroy them at all, and instead just say there is going to be 1 billion TEK or 4.32 million DMD?


I am not entirely certain that network fees are destroyed in TEK. In general, what Mullick said is true, though. The point is an inflation control mechanism. Every transaction reduces the available supply by X amount, which offsets production to some degree. Thundertoe, are fees destroyed?

Yep they are

https://github.com/maxxine/TEK/blob/51049fcc6ffd01644f837b4778b3836c8b26ac06/src/main.cpp#L1612-L1615
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August 13, 2015, 01:18:02 PM
 #4073

Sorry for my ignorance, but I don't understand.

I set my transaction fee to 1 TEK because I wanted to support the miners and with TEK, 1 coin is next to nothing.  Does this just get destroyed?

Why not keep transaction fees for the miners with TEK?  As more people stake the difficulty goes up and wouldn't that cap the supply?

I know this is the wrong thread for this, but since we are talking about it already.  I know the DMD developers plan on only having 4.32 million coins or something like that.  If I remember correctly from that thread they said they wouldn't be destroying any coins.

I think I am misunderstanding something fundamental here.  Why destroy them at all, and instead just say there is going to be 1 billion TEK or 4.32 million DMD?


I am not entirely certain that network fees are destroyed in TEK. In general, what Mullick said is true, though. The point is an inflation control mechanism. Every transaction reduces the available supply by X amount, which offsets production to some degree. Thundertoe, are fees destroyed?

Yep they are

https://github.com/maxxine/TEK/blob/51049fcc6ffd01644f837b4778b3836c8b26ac06/src/main.cpp#L1612-L1615

Thanks, Mullick. There's at least one POS coin I've messed with that don't destroy the fees. I just don't remember which one Tongue

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August 14, 2015, 08:46:56 PM
 #4074

Sorry for my ignorance, but I don't understand.

I set my transaction fee to 1 TEK because I wanted to support the miners and with TEK, 1 coin is next to nothing.  Does this just get destroyed?

Why not keep transaction fees for the miners with TEK?  As more people stake the difficulty goes up and wouldn't that cap the supply?

I know this is the wrong thread for this, but since we are talking about it already.  I know the DMD developers plan on only having 4.32 million coins or something like that.  If I remember correctly from that thread they said they wouldn't be destroying any coins.

I think I am misunderstanding something fundamental here.  Why destroy them at all, and instead just say there is going to be 1 billion TEK or 4.32 million DMD?


I am not entirely certain that network fees are destroyed in TEK. In general, what Mullick said is true, though. The point is an inflation control mechanism. Every transaction reduces the available supply by X amount, which offsets production to some degree. Thundertoe, are fees destroyed?

Yep they are

https://github.com/maxxine/TEK/blob/51049fcc6ffd01644f837b4778b3836c8b26ac06/src/main.cpp#L1612-L1615

Thanks, Mullick. There's at least one POS coin I've messed with that don't destroy the fees. I just don't remember which one Tongue
Does paying the fee improve the speed of the transaction? If not, is there any other advantage to paying the fee other than decreasing the supply?

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August 14, 2015, 09:46:42 PM
 #4075

Sorry for my ignorance, but I don't understand.

I set my transaction fee to 1 TEK because I wanted to support the miners and with TEK, 1 coin is next to nothing.  Does this just get destroyed?

Why not keep transaction fees for the miners with TEK?  As more people stake the difficulty goes up and wouldn't that cap the supply?

I know this is the wrong thread for this, but since we are talking about it already.  I know the DMD developers plan on only having 4.32 million coins or something like that.  If I remember correctly from that thread they said they wouldn't be destroying any coins.

I think I am misunderstanding something fundamental here.  Why destroy them at all, and instead just say there is going to be 1 billion TEK or 4.32 million DMD?


I am not entirely certain that network fees are destroyed in TEK. In general, what Mullick said is true, though. The point is an inflation control mechanism. Every transaction reduces the available supply by X amount, which offsets production to some degree. Thundertoe, are fees destroyed?

Yep they are

https://github.com/maxxine/TEK/blob/51049fcc6ffd01644f837b4778b3836c8b26ac06/src/main.cpp#L1612-L1615

Thanks, Mullick. There's at least one POS coin I've messed with that don't destroy the fees. I just don't remember which one Tongue
Does paying the fee improve the speed of the transaction? If not, is there any other advantage to paying the fee other than decreasing the supply?

It's still based on bitcoin, so, yes, it makes it a higher priority to have a fee.

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August 14, 2015, 10:50:17 PM
 #4076

sorry to disturb
but it did reach my ears there is a question about how DMD can promote to have a limited amount of total coins

and the answer is easy

we need like 30 years until this limit (4.3 million DMD) is close and we all know that the wallet that run DMD in 30 years will be different to the wallet that u see now

so its not of importance if there is any code parts in wallet now handling that and how

it is important that the wallet then will have the code parts

there is a clear commitment to have limited total coins amount from DMD Diamond Foundation

and there are lot ways to make this happen

just the most easy example would be tx fees are burned and POW/POS this way able mine/mint the tx fees

but we have 30 years to find other intersting paths to burn coins or other new mechanics........

but back to topic TEK i can guarantee u that i have highest respect for a coin that did choose clever path like

no premine no IPO no ICO with hybrid POW/POS (guess why Cool )
in area limited total coins or not we did choose different design goal both valid
in my opinion its easyer to calculate with a limit amount and u know ur share of the total cake in advance and it doesnt get smaller day by day

but endless nice POS earnings can be sexy too
i just think longterm a coin must be more than a POS coingenerator
and that is our main focus this days to work on services and apps on top of DMD
but im sure TEK team have similar goals and so both coins will have a bright future

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August 15, 2015, 03:03:03 PM
 #4077

Hey guys,

All this talk lately about max coins and inflation, and the return of .00006x difficulty has me seriously contemplating. And my conclusion: with such low difficulty so easily achievable, by perhaps a few whales adjusting their block sizes, exponential growth in the coin supply is inevitable.

At consistent 40% growth, and assuming all coins stake, by this time next year we'll have over 1.5 billion coins in existence, with no end in sight. That's a lot of coins. I don't think the current price will hold up. In fact, this kind of hyperinflation may actually undermine confidence. Yes, one can likely stake enough to stay ahead of price drops, but eventually you'll hit bottom. The future to me becomes uncertain.

I can't help but compare TEKcoin to Novacoin, another hybrid POW/POS with 100% advertised annual returns. Of course it's no where near that due extreme POS difficulty (+1.5). Despite its murky premine, the coin is popular, rising in value, and has low inflation and coin supply (+1.1MM). I could name off several others, but I think you get the point: low inflation with high difficulty works.

Therefore, unless we take measures to enforce inflation control, like max stake reward, I fear we will eventually drown in coins. I alone have the means to drive up POS difficulty, but I'm reluctant to do so for fear of becoming a pariah, and I believe it should be a community decision. I would rather simply move on.

I'm not saying this to initiate conflict, diss the coin or slight the dev. This is a marvellous project and achievement, and I will stay as long as I'm comfortable. But in the end, I will act in my best interests; there are just too many other good opportunities out there. I would love to hear others' opinions on this matter. Let's talk.

Sincerely,
Dick
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August 15, 2015, 03:23:16 PM
 #4078

sorry to disturb
but it did reach my ears there is a question about how DMD can promote to have a limited amount of total coins

and the answer is easy

we need like 30 years until this limit (4.3 million DMD) is close and we all know that the wallet that run DMD in 30 years will be different to the wallet that u see now

so its not of importance if there is any code parts in wallet now handling that and how

it is important that the wallet then will have the code parts

there is a clear commitment to have limited total coins amount from DMD Diamond Foundation

and there are lot ways to make this happen

just the most easy example would be tx fees are burned and POW/POS this way able mine/mint the tx fees

but we have 30 years to find other intersting paths to burn coins or other new mechanics........

but back to topic TEK i can guarantee u that i have highest respect for a coin that did choose clever path like

no premine no IPO no ICO with hybrid POW/POS (guess why Cool )
in area limited total coins or not we did choose different design goal both valid
in my opinion its easyer to calculate with a limit amount and u know ur share of the total cake in advance and it doesnt get smaller day by day

but endless nice POS earnings can be sexy too
i just think longterm a coin must be more than a POS coingenerator
and that is our main focus this days to work on services and apps on top of DMD
but im sure TEK team have similar goals and so both coins will have a bright future


Just wanted to make clear my comments were not meant in any negative way towards DMD I was just using it as an example Smiley

I figured the plan was to eventually add something to limit the supply. There is plenty of time. And giving yourself more time will likely result in better solutions then setting a hard coded max supply

I was more pointing out that very few PPC/NVC forks have any sort of a cap. The cap is really defined by difficulty. At a certain point the difficulty and inflation will be offset by fee destruction. IF the difficulty ever gets high enough. If the difficulty doesnt get that high then there really is no cap.
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August 16, 2015, 05:36:07 AM
 #4079

Anyone looking to get rid of some TEK, I am looking to add some more to my portfolio. I am looking to buy up to 300k @ 3000 sats. PM me if interested.

PIVX: DPQabewFmgSFxAtZPKszNKb2E6eHqPfJt5
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August 16, 2015, 08:41:19 AM
 #4080

Anyone looking to get rid of some TEK, I am looking to add some more to my portfolio. I am looking to buy up to 300k @ 3000 sats. PM me if interested.

Smiley Just go and place the BUY WALL at Crypsy// it will be twice as cool, then forum showoff Smiley
peace
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