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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2755393 times)
Come-from-Beyond
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February 05, 2014, 05:09:55 PM
 #29861

I would also be worried more about potential forks if the state could not be predicted in advance.

Final state can't be predicted. But u can't get different results if u have no truly random events. Transaction processing is completely deterministic, we just have to make sure we don't include RANDOMIZE opcode.

So, no timestamps and the like?

Why? U'll be able to get timestamp of any block/transaction.
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February 05, 2014, 05:13:11 PM
 #29862

""Transparent Forging" allow each user's client to automatically determine who will generate the next block, so that they can then send their transactions to that node. This will also allow additional fees to be realized for immediate/priority transactions.

An equally important feature of Transparent Forging is an outstanding security feature of the protocol to temporarily reduce to zero the forging power of nodes who should generate the next block but don't. This transparent forging feature will prevent against even a 90% majority owner of all NXT branching out and forcing a fork. So if a node that has 90% of all Nxt, and doesn't generate a block when scheduled, the system will reduce its mining power to zero temporarily to prevent a bad fork from being forced. "

this is what I read in Nxt wiki... but can anyone elaborate why this really enhances the network security? I mean it´s kind of random who are my nodes at the moment so if I get unlucky
and have more then a bunch of nodes with bad intentions (double-spending or w/e) they could deliberately miss out on generating a scheduled block
and getting away with it.

Or is this not a problem in reality? Sorry if this is a really stupid question, but I´m really unexperencied with this  proof-of-stake / forging as underlying security for a coin.

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ImmortAlex
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February 05, 2014, 05:13:26 PM
 #29863

Fee: 1.0
Until we really have high price for 1 NXT.
Until we really have big number of transactions per block.
Until we really start to scream: "WTF, I buy one gram of blow cheap cheneese smartphone and need to pay 5% of it's price as fee!"
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February 05, 2014, 05:13:58 PM
 #29864

I guess I am missing something - how then does it fly? Surely it needs to be validated as to what it does by all (or at least the majority) of nodes otherwise how can we know it has been processed correctly?

When u see a new block u attach it to ur blockchain. Upon attaching u iterate thru all transactions in the block and analyze them. If it's a payment, then u adjust corresponding balances. If it's a script, then u feed it to the interpretator. The interpretator processes all script commands one by one. If at some point it faces a problem (like division by zero), then it simply stops the processing.

Edit: Of coz scripts must be deterministic. No random events that could lead to different results.


Btw. something that came to my mind. How's gonna get the fees for executing the scripts?

The executors? Evenly split? The first executor? If later, then this boy could easily bloat the chain because paying 0 NXT per op.
msin
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February 05, 2014, 05:14:20 PM
 #29865

You? Of course you should not. It's designed for people thinking about secure messaging.

For secure messages I can use OTR for free.

The entire vision behind Nxt is to have the longest feature list among all alt-coins.  

Nxt - "Everything but the kitchen sink".


I guess this is a good time to announce that I plan to sell a Nxt kitchen sink by end of '15.

That could be one of the features in BCNxt 'secret plans' that he has "yet to reveal".

Perhaps that was the end game all along, Nxt Kitchen Sink in every home.
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February 05, 2014, 05:15:07 PM
 #29866

How's the weather in St. Petersburg these days?
Why do you think he is from St.Petersburg?
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February 05, 2014, 05:15:32 PM
 #29867

I would also be worried more about potential forks if the state could not be predicted in advance.

Final state can't be predicted. But u can't get different results if u have no truly random events. Transaction processing is completely deterministic, we just have to make sure we don't include RANDOMIZE opcode.

So, no timestamps and the like?

Why? U'll be able to get timestamp of any block/transaction.

I mean the real time. Like in datetime.datetime.now().

The clock for these scripts will be the blocks, right?
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February 05, 2014, 05:16:24 PM
 #29868

Btw. something that came to my mind. How's gonna get the fees for executing the scripts?

The executors? Evenly split? The first executor? If later, then this boy could easily bloat the chain because paying 0 NXT per op.
Script will be executed only by forger. So forger will get fee.
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February 05, 2014, 05:17:02 PM
 #29869

Fee: 1.0
Until we really have high price for 1 NXT.
Until we really have big number of transactions per block.
Until we really start to scream: "WTF, I buy one gram of blow cheap cheneese smartphone and need to pay 5% of it's price as fee!"

Exactly, my thoughts. Would also like a % of transaction's amount to be spent as fee with min 1NXT.
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February 05, 2014, 05:17:09 PM
 #29870

I would also be worried more about potential forks if the state could not be predicted in advance.

Final state can't be predicted. But u can't get different results if u have no truly random events. Transaction processing is completely deterministic, we just have to make sure we don't include RANDOMIZE opcode.

No RANDOM opcode is unfortunate.  I actually had an idea to do anonymous mixing that would rely on a RANDOM implementation and AM...

RANDOM is fine, I'm talking about RANDOMIZE.
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February 05, 2014, 05:17:32 PM
 #29871

why dont adjust fees in a predictably, dynamically and automatically way?? i mean, drecrease fees in relation with number of blocks in the block chain or something that makes fees go down as people use nxt more....as people use nxt more, price should rise, so, it would also be related to prices...
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February 05, 2014, 05:18:22 PM
 #29872

Btw. something that came to my mind. How's gonna get the fees for executing the scripts?

The executors? Evenly split? The first executor? If later, then this boy could easily bloat the chain because paying 0 NXT per op.
Script will be executed only by forger. So forger will get fee.

The same TF for the same blockchain? Aren't we going to have a different chain for each domain [transaction, script state, files] ?
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February 05, 2014, 05:19:34 PM
 #29873

The executors? Evenly split? The first executor? If later, then this boy could easily bloat the chain because paying 0 NXT per op.

Forger gets all the fees.
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February 05, 2014, 05:19:41 PM
 #29874

I would also be worried more about potential forks if the state could not be predicted in advance.

Final state can't be predicted. But u can't get different results if u have no truly random events. Transaction processing is completely deterministic, we just have to make sure we don't include RANDOMIZE opcode.

No RANDOM opcode is unfortunate.  I actually had an idea to do anonymous mixing that would rely on a RANDOM implementation and AM...

RANDOM is fine, I'm talking about RANDOMIZE.

Sorry? What's the difference?
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February 05, 2014, 05:20:50 PM
 #29875

I mean the real time. Like in datetime.datetime.now().

The clock for these scripts will be the blocks, right?

Right.
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February 05, 2014, 05:21:05 PM
 #29876

""Transparent Forging" allow each user's client to automatically determine who will generate the next block, so that they can then send their transactions to that node. This will also allow additional fees to be realized for immediate/priority transactions.

An equally important feature of Transparent Forging is an outstanding security feature of the protocol to temporarily reduce to zero the forging power of nodes who should generate the next block but don't. This transparent forging feature will prevent against even a 90% majority owner of all NXT branching out and forcing a fork. So if a node that has 90% of all Nxt, and doesn't generate a block when scheduled, the system will reduce its mining power to zero temporarily to prevent a bad fork from being forced. "

this is what I read in Nxt wiki... but can anyone elaborate why this really enhances the network security? I mean it´s kind of random who are my nodes at the moment so if I get unlucky
and have more then a bunch of nodes with bad intentions (double-spending or w/e) they could deliberately miss out on generating a scheduled block
and getting away with it.

Or is this not a problem in reality? Sorry if this is a really stupid question, but I´m really unexperencied with this  proof-of-stake / forging as underlying security for a coin.

the best I can tell you is in TF, if you do not generate an invalid block when you are expected to, then it is assumed that you are working on a fork implementation.  so then the network temporarily removes your forging power.

all I got
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February 05, 2014, 05:22:54 PM
 #29877

Sorry? What's the difference?

RANDOM returns a pseudo-random sequence based on a seed.
RANDOMIZE sets the seed according to truly random events like noise from a physical device.
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February 05, 2014, 05:23:20 PM
 #29878

I mean the real time. Like in datetime.datetime.now().

The clock for these scripts will be the blocks, right?

Right.

So, fully deterministic.

How can be prove the correct execution by a forger?
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February 05, 2014, 05:24:12 PM
 #29879

How's the weather in St. Petersburg these days?
Why do you think he is from St.Petersburg?

Why do you think he's not?

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February 05, 2014, 05:24:52 PM
 #29880

I actually agree with you when you think about messaging as a stand alone feature.  I look at it this way.  Secure messaging is just one tool I use when completing a fully independent Nxt transaction.  Meaning, at one point you will be able to browse products, communicate with seller, initiate purchase, put Nxt in escrow (receive item), send funds, leave feedback, all within Nxt client.  That is just one example of hundreds that could be used with Nxt secure messaging.

Messages should be used for technical staff and should be well-paid. 1.0

We are not talking about longterm. Right now no reason to lower fees because of messaging, because there is no use for messaging (chat).



Fee: 1.0
Until we really have high price for 1 NXT.
Until we really have big number of transactions per block.
Until we really start to scream: "WTF, I buy one gram of blow cheap cheneese smartphone and need to pay 5% of it's price as fee!"

Exactly.

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