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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2755952 times)
Come-from-Beyond
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February 06, 2014, 07:46:06 AM
 #30241

J-L: I hate u......<engaging upgrade process for the second time today>

U shouldn't blame J-L. When I got info about the bug I offered a solution that was implemented in 0.5.12, actually it was just an uneffective work-around. Later BCNext poped up and proposed a better way to fix the bug. Enjoy 0.6.0.
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February 06, 2014, 07:47:33 AM
 #30242

Folks, I have a "Nxt Basics" question I want to run past people who Know Better.  I could dig through code to figure this out for myself, I know, but I don't trust my ability to read Java.

Re: block generation: Is this true?

When an account wants to forge a block, it generates a hash based on the previous block's signature and its own secret key.  This hash is compared to the target, and if it is lower than the target, it "wins" the right to forge a block.

Am I correct in my thinking that an account only generates this hash ONCE, and then waits until the "hit value" doubles enough, each second, for this value to "win"?

My gut tells me this is right, because it forms a sensible basis for Transparent Forging, etc.  But I want to make sure before I, um, say it in a podcast.

Thanks!

Not "secret" key. Public one.
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February 06, 2014, 07:48:47 AM
 #30243

J-L: I hate u......<engaging upgrade process for the second time today>

U shouldn't blame J-L. When I got info about the bug I offered a solution that was implemented in 0.5.12, actually it was just an uneffective work-around. Later BCNext poped up and proposed a better way to fix the bug. Enjoy 0.6.0.

BCNext popped up  Grin  

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February 06, 2014, 07:49:42 AM
 #30244

J-L: I hate u......<engaging upgrade process for the second time today>

U shouldn't blame J-L. When I got info about the bug I offered a solution that was implemented in 0.5.12, actually it was just an uneffective work-around. Later BCNext poped up and proposed a better way to fix the bug. Enjoy 0.6.0.

BCNext popped up  Grin  


BCNext is now some magical fairy Cheesy Cheesy

Fuck Mt.Gox! Fuck Mintpal! Fuck Bter! FUCK kyc! Protect yourself use MGW! SUPERNET!
Recommended ASSET ->InstantDex : Lead Dev Jl777 (decentralized multi currency instant exchange)
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https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/(ann)-jinn/
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February 06, 2014, 07:52:00 AM
 #30245

If we do pruning (aka restart genesis) every 1k blocks, I'm pretty sure even the slowest smartphone can do it in under a second. Assuming a constant 1000tps, that's 60,000,000 transactions every 1000 blocks. I'm not sure how many processor cycles it takes to iterate through each transaction and do addition/subtraction to the proper accounts. I'm pretty sure my galaxy S2 (old phone, I know) can crunch that in a few seconds tops.

Why the hurry? 2 weeks (14*1440 blocks) should be fast enough for now. In the end, we can adjust the length according to our needs.

It's a security issue as well, if you cut the chain too often.

Remember, we still have only 0.05 TPS. So, don't worry. It the algos are flexible, we can change the parameters.

---

Another issue is, what to do with the other blockchains aka, script blockchain, file blockchain etc. Pruning these, seems highly impossible.
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February 06, 2014, 07:52:07 AM
 #30246

CfB:

How will new cryptos that use AM on top of NXT as their blockchain deal with the periodic purges of AM transactions?

And will implementation of .01 versus .001 for fees require differing amounts of work from dev teams ?


All AMs will be removed but child cryptos will have 1440 blocks from last chain. They r supposed to use it for storing actual data.

0.001 indeed requires more work than 0.01.
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February 06, 2014, 07:53:44 AM
 #30247

Is it possible to have scaling transaction fees?


You know, for larger transactions to get hit with more transaction fees? This would be a really nice feature for NXT

I would like it.
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February 06, 2014, 07:53:58 AM
 #30248

Who create that genesis block and distribute it? Or maybe everyone can create it with a simple tool.
How do we coordinate everyone?

Every node can construct new genesis block using previous blockchain. No need to distribute it.
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February 06, 2014, 08:05:42 AM
 #30249

Who create that genesis block and distribute it? Or maybe everyone can create it with a simple tool.
How do we coordinate everyone?

Every node can construct new genesis block using previous blockchain. No need to distribute it.

What's to stop malicious nodes from creating their own genesis blocks with super special bonus additions?

Notable projects 2019: Semux, Dero, Wagerr, BEAM
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February 06, 2014, 08:07:34 AM
 #30250

Who create that genesis block and distribute it? Or maybe everyone can create it with a simple tool.
How do we coordinate everyone?

Every node can construct new genesis block using previous blockchain. No need to distribute it.

What's to stop malicious nodes from creating their own genesis blocks with super special bonus additions?

That might be circumvented cryptographically.

Additionally, who else is going to verify that transaction? Nobody, because they don't see the super special bonus additions. So, the guy will spend nothing of the additional money.
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February 06, 2014, 08:17:47 AM
 #30251

Nxt's biggest and best feature is its blockchain and network.  Bitcoin is forever stuck on a Proof of Work form of consensus and a built-in scripting system for transactions. Neither of these can be "undone", and in fact the Bitcoin devs are loading even more bloat into the Bitcoin core with every release.  Everything "future-focused" that is being built on top of Bitcoin is being built on top of these inefficient, slow, "core" features.  Nxt has removed all of this and created a whole new set of primitives that bypass both of these hindrances.  Nxt has inherited some of Bitcoin's challenges (fungibility, blockchain growth, passphrase security), but it has completely bypassed several of the other ones (low transactions per second, an increasingly centralized mining network that burns $17 million in electricity per day)

Nxt is light because of its Proof of Stake mechanism, and it is agile because the "protocol layer" consists of simple transaction verification, a blockchain mechanism, and a few core transaction types.

+1
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February 06, 2014, 08:19:38 AM
 #30252

Please comment


Just want to catch on the discussion we had this afternoon about features and target audience for nxt.

1. (Possible) Features:
- TF for instant transactions
- TF + punishment against 50% attacks (correct?)
- no bloated blockchain
- energy friendly crypto
- mobile friendly crypto
- easy to add new features
- many many TPS
- parallel blockchains
- blockchain shrinking
- decentralized exchange
- colored coins
- decentralized voting/opiniongrabber
- decentralized AM (data storage, link storage (eg torrents), encrypted messaging, ...)
- dividend payouts (all fees per block) for everyone instead of mining of the few with lots of power
- Turing capability
- smart contracts
- anonymous transactions
- SMS gateway

2. Today it was clear that the nxt community isn't sure yet, which features are the most important ones, which could be ignored in favor of other features (some exclude each other), and who the target audience is. Would it be easier if we knew plan 2 and 3 from BCNext? I don't know. But regardless of BCNext's plans, we should discuss this topic in the community: which is our target audience now, next months and in one year? Does this depend on the features we implement or does the features depend on the audience we want to tackle? The answer is clear (or is nxt just fundamental research?) That's why we should discuss this.

3. Some thoughts on some features and their implications:
- TF was and is our key ingredient in nxt. I have no clue at which state it is right now, who will develop all the core ingredients of TF (JL?) and how important it will be in one year
- bloated blockchain: although I was quite shocked about today's statements about the size of the blockchain, I see it more clearly now. First of all I think it is still bad because solar powered  RaspberryPis and AndroidTV sticks will not work for securing the nxt network in the future, IF we will get to a large TPS. The idea of thousands of raspberrypis working and securing nxt is dead. That's really sad because it was a really nice idea, especially marketing wise. Otherwise, I came to the conclusion that our chain should currently be measured with the same transaction amount as bitcoin has right now. And then, our block chain is cute and tiny.
- we are still very energy friendly, but the loss of raspberrypis in the future is a slap in the marketing face
- with lightweight clients, we are able to use nxt on every smartphone. BUT is this different and superior to BTC if we can’t actually forge with our phone? (Leasing forge power is not the same since we are not really part of the nxt network with the phone). When we implement block shrinking and parallel blockchains, we could shovel weight of the important transaction chain which means smartphones and raspberrypis could work longer for nxt (until how many TPS? I have one clue)
- SMS gateway (bounty by CfB) must be developed (eg Africa is using SMS as some sort of currency). This would be a really nice feature, especially for marketing
- do we need turing stuff? if we have the resources to develop this (i don’t want CfB to waste his energy if this is a nice, but not a must have feature or if this feature would make some other features impossible (like high TPS or no bloated blockchain)), let’s do it. it is nice marketing also.
- High and fast TPS is important for a special target audience (professionals like people relying on VISA). It was advertised big since the beginning. if we are able to keep this promise, then we must do this. or we also should look at the possibility of hight TPS if we implement other features which might interfere with hight TPS.
- anonymous transactions is a freaking HUGE opportunity. if we can tackle this, then, absolutely, let’s do it.
- decentralized exchange and colored coins are a must.
- CfB states many times that it is easy to implement new features in nxt. I am no dev and just have to believe him. It should always be easy so nxt can adapt to new ideas and technologies.

some features are implemented, some are discussed, and some are plain ideas. We should discuss where nxt is heading to get a clear view what should be implemented in the next months. We should discuss all ideas and get an overview WHO will develop which services or features. And we should make a clear distinction between service providers (which uses nxt) and nxt features (which build nxt). and we should always be aware of paradox decisions (like 1000000TPS and mini blockchain for example). Now I have no clue who is responsible for what. I have a fear that many things just don’t get done because of diffusion of responsibility (Google it). I hope i’m wrong.



Maybe I forgot many major things, but it is a starting point.

-

All the written stuff above could be total bullshit, because I'm no programmer and have difficulties to keep up with all the stuff what's going on in the nxt ecosystem.

I sincerely hope that I get some comments from devs, idea makers, marketers, ... And I hope we get a discussion started about target audience, features and what is the meaning of nxt.

Please respond (think about diffusion of responsibility if you don’t want to click “reply”).

tl;dr invest in doge.
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February 06, 2014, 08:34:46 AM
 #30253

Please comment


Just want to catch on the discussion we had this afternoon about features and target audience for nxt.

1. (Possible) Features:
- TF for instant transactions
- TF + punishment against 50% attacks (correct?)
- no bloated blockchain
- energy friendly crypto
- mobile friendly crypto
- easy to add new features
- many many TPS
- parallel blockchains
- blockchain shrinking
- decentralized exchange
- colored coins
- decentralized voting/opiniongrabber
- decentralized AM (data storage, link storage (eg torrents), encrypted messaging, ...)
- dividend payouts (all fees per block) for everyone instead of mining of the few with lots of power
- Turing capability
- smart contracts
- anonymous transactions
- SMS gateway

2. Today it was clear that the nxt community isn't sure yet, which features are the most important ones, which could be ignored in favor of other features (some exclude each other), and who the target audience is. Would it be easier if we knew plan 2 and 3 from BCNext? I don't know. But regardless of BCNext's plans, we should discuss this topic in the community: which is our target audience now, next months and in one year? Does this depend on the features we implement or does the features depend on the audience we want to tackle? The answer is clear (or is nxt just fundamental research?) That's why we should discuss this.

3. Some thoughts on some features and their implications:
- TF was and is our key ingredient in nxt. I have no clue at which state it is right now, who will develop all the core ingredients of TF (JL?) and how important it will be in one year
- bloated blockchain: although I was quite shocked about today's statements about the size of the blockchain, I see it more clearly now. First of all I think it is still bad because solar powered  RaspberryPis and AndroidTV sticks will not work for securing the nxt network in the future, IF we will get to a large TPS. The idea of thousands of raspberrypis working and securing nxt is dead. That's really sad because it was a really nice idea, especially marketing wise. Otherwise, I came to the conclusion that our chain should currently be measured with the same transaction amount as bitcoin has right now. And then, our block chain is cute and tiny.
- we are still very energy friendly, but the loss of raspberrypis in the future is a slap in the marketing face
- with lightweight clients, we are able to use nxt on every smartphone. BUT is this different and superior to BTC if we can’t actually forge with our phone? (Leasing forge power is not the same since we are not really part of the nxt network with the phone). When we implement block shrinking and parallel blockchains, we could shovel weight of the important transaction chain which means smartphones and raspberrypis could work longer for nxt (until how many TPS? I have one clue)
- SMS gateway (bounty by CfB) must be developed (eg Africa is using SMS as some sort of currency). This would be a really nice feature, especially for marketing
- do we need turing stuff? if we have the resources to develop this (i don’t want CfB to waste his energy if this is a nice, but not a must have feature or if this feature would make some other features impossible (like high TPS or no bloated blockchain)), let’s do it. it is nice marketing also.
- High and fast TPS is important for a special target audience (professionals like people relying on VISA). It was advertised big since the beginning. if we are able to keep this promise, then we must do this. or we also should look at the possibility of hight TPS if we implement other features which might interfere with hight TPS.
- anonymous transactions is a freaking HUGE opportunity. if we can tackle this, then, absolutely, let’s do it.
- decentralized exchange and colored coins are a must.
- CfB states many times that it is easy to implement new features in nxt. I am no dev and just have to believe him. It should always be easy so nxt can adapt to new ideas and technologies.

some features are implemented, some are discussed, and some are plain ideas. We should discuss where nxt is heading to get a clear view what should be implemented in the next months. We should discuss all ideas and get an overview WHO will develop which services or features. And we should make a clear distinction between service providers (which uses nxt) and nxt features (which build nxt). and we should always be aware of paradox decisions (like 1000000TPS and mini blockchain for example). Now I have no clue who is responsible for what. I have a fear that many things just don’t get done because of diffusion of responsibility (Google it). I hope i’m wrong.



Maybe I forgot many major things, but it is a starting point.

-

All the written stuff above could be total bullshit, because I'm no programmer and have difficulties to keep up with all the stuff what's going on in the nxt ecosystem.

I sincerely hope that I get some comments from devs, idea makers, marketers, ... And I hope we get a discussion started about target audience, features and what is the meaning of nxt.

Please respond (think about diffusion of responsibility if you don’t want to click “reply”).

tl;dr invest in doge.


Great summary! A few thoughts on this:

Not only the target audience is undefined and might differ between people, but also the overall goal. This is what makes it so disturbing when CfB mentions "step X of "the plan"". The roadmap is not public and this makes it difficult to decide which features might make sense.

Having this somehow limited perspective, I think from your list of possible features "anonymous transactions" would be the killer feature.

Not just the possibility to use some kind of mixing service, but actually changing pseudo anonymity to real anonymity. It is beyond me to say if this is possible, but if it is and gets implemented, NXT will explode (not (just) the price, but adoption, resources and everything else).

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February 06, 2014, 08:34:59 AM
 #30254

I'm pretty damn sure they are pushing this update for one reason, that is to prevent exploitation of the said critical bug.

Right, as soon as majority of FORGING nodes upgrade, I'll disclose the details.
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February 06, 2014, 08:37:41 AM
 #30255

Why would someone need SHA256 in a script?

Atomic-cross chain transactions and the like will require a hash function (I would assume SHA256 would be the most likely to include).

If we can't get atomic-cross chain transactions to work then I think the idea of being able to have a trust-less P2P "coin" exchange simply won't work (not that we have to use a "smart contract" to do this of course but it would seem like something reasonable to support as other such "use cases" undoubtedly will arise).

Ok. Let's test Scripting without SHA256 and then add more opcodes if necessary.
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February 06, 2014, 08:38:14 AM
 #30256

I think from your list of possible features "anonymous transactions" would be the killer feature.

Not just the possibility to use some kind of mixing service, but actually changing pseudo anonymity to real anonymity. It is beyond me to say if this is possible, but if it is and gets implemented, NXT will explode (not (just) the price, but adoption, resources and everything else).



+1

And thanks for replying.
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February 06, 2014, 08:38:35 AM
 #30257

I am making good progress on getting AE into my Client - as let's see what the testing does. Any tentative dates for 'official launch' of AE??

11th of Feb - public test
Xth of Feb - release
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February 06, 2014, 08:38:46 AM
 #30258

I'm receiving these errors:

Quote
[2014-02-06 08:36:19.098] NRS 0.6.0 started successfully.
[2014-02-06 08:36:33.536] DEBUG: Failed to accept block received from 192.80.146.102, blacklisting
[2014-02-06 08:36:42.634] DEBUG: Failed to accept block received from 65.49.77.102, blacklisting
[2014-02-06 08:36:56.667] DEBUG: Failed to accept block received from 65.49.77.101, blacklisting
[2014-02-06 08:37:18.174] DEBUG: Failed to accept block received from 62.4.23.171, blacklisting
[2014-02-06 08:37:50.971] DEBUG: Failed to accept block received from 80.86.92.70, blacklisting
[2014-02-06 08:37:57.267] DEBUG: Failed to accept block received from node15.mynxt.info, blacklisting
[2014-02-06 08:38:01.185] DEBUG: Error processing GET request
java.lang.NullPointerException
   at nxt.http.GetAccountTransactionIds.processRequest(GetAccountTransactionIds.java:74)
   at nxt.http.HttpRequestHandler.process(HttpRequestHandler.java:92)
   at nxt.Nxt.doGet(Nxt.java:356)
   at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:687)
   at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:790)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.servlet.ServletHolder.handle(ServletHolder.java:717)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.servlet.ServletHandler$CachedChain.doFilter(ServletHandler.java:1644)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.servlets.CrossOriginFilter.handle(CrossOriginFilter.java:248)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.servlets.CrossOriginFilter.doFilter(CrossOriginFilter.java:211)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.servlet.ServletHandler$CachedChain.doFilter(ServletHandler.java:1624)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.servlets.DoSFilter.doFilterChain(DoSFilter.java:457)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.servlets.DoSFilter.doFilter(DoSFilter.java:326)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.servlets.DoSFilter.doFilter(DoSFilter.java:299)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.servlet.ServletHandler$CachedChain.doFilter(ServletHandler.java:1615)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.servlet.ServletHandler.doHandle(ServletHandler.java:550)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.server.handler.ScopedHandler.handle(ScopedHandler.java:143)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.security.SecurityHandler.handle(SecurityHandler.java:568)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.server.session.SessionHandler.doHandle(SessionHandler.java:221)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.server.handler.ContextHandler.doHandle(ContextHandler.java:1110)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.servlet.ServletHandler.doScope(ServletHandler.java:479)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.server.session.SessionHandler.doScope(SessionHandler.java:183)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.server.handler.ContextHandler.doScope(ContextHandler.java:1044)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.server.handler.ScopedHandler.handle(ScopedHandler.java:141)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.server.handler.ContextHandlerCollection.handle(ContextHandlerCollection.java:199)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.server.handler.HandlerCollection.handle(HandlerCollection.java:109)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.server.handler.HandlerWrapper.handle(HandlerWrapper.java:97)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.server.Server.handle(Server.java:459)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.server.HttpChannel.handle(HttpChannel.java:281)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.server.HttpConnection.onFillable(HttpConnection.java:232)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.io.AbstractConnection$1.run(AbstractConnection.java:505)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.util.thread.QueuedThreadPool.runJob(QueuedThreadPool.java:607)
   at org.eclipse.jetty.util.thread.QueuedThreadPool$3.run(QueuedThreadPool.java:536)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:724)
[2014-02-06 08:38:03.887] DEBUG: Failed to accept block received from 83.143.232.49, blacklisting
[2014-02-06 08:38:08.211] DEBUG: Failed to accept block received from vps18.nxtcrypto.org, blacklisting
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February 06, 2014, 08:45:29 AM
 #30259

J-L: I hate u......<engaging upgrade process for the second time today>

U shouldn't blame J-L. When I got info about the bug I offered a solution that was implemented in 0.5.12, actually it was just an uneffective work-around. Later BCNext poped up and proposed a better way to fix the bug. Enjoy 0.6.0.

BCNext popped up  Grin  


BCNext is now some magical fairy Cheesy Cheesy

I meant...



Just kidding  Grin
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February 06, 2014, 08:47:56 AM
 #30260

What's to stop malicious nodes from creating their own genesis blocks with super special bonus additions?

Master blockchain.
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