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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2755394 times)
ChuckOne
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February 06, 2014, 12:43:02 AM
 #30121

Things should be useful first, then fast. Nobody cares if low level implementation is "simple" or whatever. The simple fact that you can't deny is that an architecture with many opcodes is drastically faster, equivalent programs are drastically smaller and it's much easier to write in it.

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EvilDave
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February 06, 2014, 12:43:31 AM
 #30122


@ChuckOne and Panda:
One of the good things about having the voting site is that we can play around with various voting parameters until we come up with a system (or systems) that upset the least number of people for the shortest time.

That's right. However, I think parameters are evil. They simply shouldn't exist. If they do, the system is playable.

Quote
It's never going to be perfect, because everyone is slightly different, and yet everyone thinks that their own viewpoint is the right one.....democracy, eh, what ya gonna do?

Clearly monarchy.

Davearchy: The universe run by Daves. Sounds good to me.

Still having trouble getting my home 5.12 nodes to sync up cleanly. VPS seesm to be on the good path, luckily.

Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
Love your money: www.nxt.org  www.ardorplatform.org
www.nxter.org  www.nxtfoundation.org
xyzzyx
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February 06, 2014, 12:44:09 AM
 #30123

I will use the money for the /r/Nxt marketing campaign. If the community show me a better way I will implement this. Wink

I think the Nxt should go to you for building the site and maintaining, it's an awesome addition to the community.

+1

"An awful lot of code is being written ... in languages that aren't very good by people who don't know what they're doing." -- Barbara Liskov
pandaisftw
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February 06, 2014, 12:44:14 AM
 #30124

In addition, it seems that you are going for the more "fair" system, but by setting a minimum NXT holding limit, aren't you excluding all those who have less than this amount? So small stakeholders are being disenfranchised even more so than the 1 NXT = 1 vote system.

Do you mean with 1 NXT:
1) 1 NXT in balance
or
2) 1 NXT fee

Either way. People with larger stakes will care more about what they vote on whether or not they have to pay for it.

I would say it is better to be based on 1 NXT = 1 vote (without pay), otherwise it will discourage voting. We want a large as possible agreement, so that means we want as much NXT in the system voting as possible.

Do you really think, it would discourage voting? Large stakeholders can't afford to pay high fees, just because.

Another argument should be counted in: large stakeholders do a lot to secure the system. So, why jeopardizing it via 'appearing unfair' voting? In a system where only the balance counts they have to create smaller accounts just to vote fairly (assuming they want because of the stakeholder-argument). When they can determine the voting power directly (via fees), I dont see a problem with that.

Paying fees has the side-effect that more NXTs are distributed. That's basically a good thing, I think.

The only issue I see with having to pay a fee is that people who care most (ie. they vote the most) will find that they have less and less voting power over time. Their NXT may flow to hoarders who never vote at all. Without a fee system (simply 1 NXT = 1 vote) then everyone is encouraged to vote as much as possible, on every topic. Of course, no one (especially large stakeholders) would vote for something that would harm their own stake, so there is already an incentive to vote for the overall good of NXT built in.

NXT: 13095091276527367030
iruu
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February 06, 2014, 12:45:44 AM
 #30125

Things should be useful first, then fast. Nobody cares if low level implementation is "simple" or whatever. The simple fact that you can't deny is that an architecture with many opcodes is drastically faster, equivalent programs are drastically smaller and it's much easier to write in it.


You are using the clause order as an argument? Really? Since when the first thing to mention is the most important one? And why does it matter?

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February 06, 2014, 12:59:27 AM
 #30126

peer bug?

Quote
"213.57.82.19",
"node17.nxtbase.com",
"212.67.73.173",
"93.190.92.75",
"abctc.vps.nxtcrypto.org",
"node18.nxtbase.com",
"212.85.38.25",
"186.90.251.60",
"85.10.202.109",
"14.20.5.93",
"195.3.205.202",
"50.30.46.177;209.126.96.136;209.126.96.137;209.126.96.138",   <<<
"109.75.223.181",
"vps1.nxtcrypto.org",
"46.19.137.116",
"88.193.113.190",
"176.31.244.93",
"80.86.83.79",
"69.90.132.18",
"95.85.31.25",

In /admin.html => Get Peers
Jean-Luc
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February 06, 2014, 01:21:11 AM
 #30127

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Release 0.6.0

http://download.nxtcrypto.org/nxt-client-0.6.0.zip

sha256: 40154756de464c9587b738c84f14a4a06dfb02476507f1a2383cbe03dc5bd48b

Change log:

Fixed a critical bug. Everybody should upgrade immediately.
The fix in 0.5.12 was not enough.

A more detailed changelog will follow tomorrow, or you can
figure it out yourself. Now I go to sleep.

Did I mention that everyone should upgrade?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
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=z84D
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

lead Nxt developer, gpg key id: 0x811D6940E1E4240C
Nxt blockchain platform | Ardor blockchain platform | Ignis ICO
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February 06, 2014, 01:45:23 AM
 #30128

interesting day with many updates!

NXTio.org 0.6.0 updated! operating properly Smiley
bidji29
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February 06, 2014, 01:46:49 AM
 #30129

0.6.0 released

Fixed a critical bug. Everybody should upgrade immediately.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Release 0.6.0

http://download.nxtcrypto.org/nxt-client-0.6.0.zip

sha256: 40154756de464c9587b738c84f14a4a06dfb02476507f1a2383cbe03dc5bd48b

Change log:

Fixed a critical bug. Everybody should upgrade immediately.
The fix in 0.5.12 was not enough.

A more detailed changelog will follow tomorrow, or you can
figure it out yourself. Now I go to sleep.

Did I mention that everyone should upgrade?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
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=z84D
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


http://www.freebieservers.com/  100% FREE GAME SERVERS
allwelder
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February 06, 2014, 01:51:51 AM
 #30130

this has to be a record amount of time between comments in this thread
I thought it must have been broken!
If it weren't for my blabber, it would have been over 90 minutes between posts.

wonder why its so quiet. it isnt some sort of holiday or something is it.

chinese new year!
Chinese new year is over now.I miss all of you.
EvilDave
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February 06, 2014, 02:02:41 AM
 #30131

J-L: I hate u......<engaging upgrade process for the second time today>

@Allwelder.....nice 2 c u, bro. Good NewYear?

Block check, please:
59119      2584657662098653454      donderdag 6 februari 2014 2:59:13   
      
      0      0 + 0      0 B   
      
      2      11409980915768770703      1406 %   
   

Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
Love your money: www.nxt.org  www.ardorplatform.org
www.nxter.org  www.nxtfoundation.org
xyzzyx
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February 06, 2014, 02:07:06 AM
 #30132

J-L: I hate u......<engaging upgrade process for the second time today>

@Allwelder.....nice 2 c u, bro. Good NewYear?

Block check, please:
59119      2584657662098653454      donderdag 6 februari 2014 2:59:13   
      
      0      0 + 0      0 B   
      
      2      11409980915768770703      1406 %   
   


I see the same here:
Code:
59119  2584657662098653454   2/5/2014 8:59:13 PM
0      0 + 0                 0 B
2      11409980915768770703  1406 %

"An awful lot of code is being written ... in languages that aren't very good by people who don't know what they're doing." -- Barbara Liskov
EvilDave
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February 06, 2014, 02:09:42 AM
 #30133

J-L: I hate u......<engaging upgrade process for the second time today>

@Allwelder.....nice 2 c u, bro. Good NewYear?

Block check, please:
59119      2584657662098653454      donderdag 6 februari 2014 2:59:13   
      
      0      0 + 0      0 B   
      
      2      11409980915768770703      1406 %   
   


I see the same here:
Code:
59119  2584657662098653454   2/5/2014 8:59:13 PM
0      0 + 0                 0 B
2      11409980915768770703  1406 %

Yay, home nodes r good, VPS is screwy. Thx, mate!

Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
Love your money: www.nxt.org  www.ardorplatform.org
www.nxter.org  www.nxtfoundation.org
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February 06, 2014, 02:09:50 AM
Last edit: February 06, 2014, 01:54:33 PM by joefox
 #30134

Folks, I have a "Nxt Basics" question I want to run past people who Know Better.  I could dig through code to figure this out for myself, I know, but I don't trust my ability to read Java.

Re: block generation: Is this true?

When an account wants to forge a block, it generates a hash based on the previous block's signature and its own secret public key.  This hash is compared to the target, and if it is lower than the target, it "wins" the right to forge a block.

Am I correct in my thinking that an account only generates this hash ONCE, and then waits until the "hit value" doubles enough, each second, for this value to "win"?

My gut tells me this is right, because it forms a sensible basis for Transparent Forging, etc.  But I want to make sure before I, um, say it in a podcast.

Thanks!

I admin the Nxt Wiki at http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/ Please support my work by donating to Nxt account #1234567740944417915
brooklynbtc
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February 06, 2014, 02:11:52 AM
 #30135

0.25   Passion_ltc
0.01   landomata
0.1   CIYAM Open
0.1   longzai1988
0.1   LiQio
0.1   pinarello
0.01   minusbalancer
0.1   TwinWinNerD
0.1   BitcoinForumator
0.1   grex
0.1   bitcoinpaul
0.01   smaragda
0.01   mthcl
0.05   Jack Needles
0.1   gimre
0.001   Intel
0.01   Hegemon
0.1   lyynx
0.1   voldemort628
0.01   Ezravdb
0.1   Noltev
0.01   fmiboy
0.1   bidjl29
0.1   abuelau
0.1   seek4dream
0.1   wesleyh
0.1   achimsmile
0.1   Sebastien256
0.01  rriky92

FYI, compiling votes.  Here's what I've got from the thread so far.  Some not explicit (ie: +1 comment) taken as valid vote.

(Average = 0.0752)

sorry been at work and looking after sick wife
my vote for trans fees

0.1

SN
S   U   P   E   R    N   E   T
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀   
Uniting cryptocurrencies, Rewarding talent, Sharing benefits..

Blockchain Technology.

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February 06, 2014, 02:13:01 AM
 #30136

0.25   Passion_ltc
0.01   landomata
0.1   CIYAM Open
0.1   longzai1988
0.1   LiQio
0.1   pinarello
0.01   minusbalancer
0.1   TwinWinNerD
0.1   BitcoinForumator
0.1   grex
0.1   bitcoinpaul
0.01   smaragda
0.01   mthcl
0.05   Jack Needles
0.1   gimre
0.001   Intel
0.01   Hegemon
0.1   lyynx
0.1   voldemort628
0.01   Ezravdb
0.1   Noltev
0.01   fmiboy
0.1   bidjl29
0.1   abuelau
0.1   seek4dream
0.1   wesleyh
0.1   achimsmile
0.1   Sebastien256
0.01  rriky92

FYI, compiling votes.  Here's what I've got from the thread so far.  Some not explicit (ie: +1 comment) taken as valid vote.

(Average = 0.0752)

sorry been at work and looking after sick wife
my vote for trans fees

0.1

0.1 as well for me.
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February 06, 2014, 02:17:05 AM
 #30137


From my "average investor" point of view, I believe high and fast TPS will be the one thing that most dramatically sets Nxt apart from the competition. Once it becomes clear to the average investor that Nxt can take on not just Bitcoin, but Visa as well, this one fact will be become the main force to drive widespread adoption. This is something that everyone can understand immediately, without the need for complex explanations and examples of how it might be used in future.

Since marketing to-date has already focused on this, it should remain a top priority. At the very least, it would be good to have a system in place by April that can handle 100+ TPS with a clear roadmap of how 1000+ TPS can be achieved in the near future.  
Also, high TPS is coming with eMunue, so this is not something we can ignore if we are to remain competitive in this area:
http://forum.emunie.com/index.php/topic/226-processing-at-visa-scale/


OK, time for my evening rant on blockchain to go along with my morning rant here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4951414#msg4951414

I've decided that as usual CfB has the last say with Yoda style wisdom:

Blockchain pruning / minimization is for survival.

U should undestand that everything is in ur own hands. Pruning is not a rocket science. Just make a snapshot at some block height and use it as Genesis Block 2.

So let's talk about taking this 1000 TPS into our own hands.  

Do we want to demonstrate 1000 TPS if it is at all possible?  Hell yes.  We have promoted NXT as a 1000+ TPS Visa killer.  By God if it can be done, then we should demonstrate it as soon as possible on a testnet.  If we succeed the price of NXT will explode.  

A 300 GB chain pruned once per month is ridiculous for a 1000 TPS system.  I take back my request to show that is possible.  Even if you show it is possible, it's not a realistic scenario that will ever happen.  Instead let's develop and demonstrate a scenario that could really happen.

I propose that we demonstrate the production of sixty 1000 TPS blocks in a testnet with sixty different NXT nodes in a one hour period.  This means that 60,000 test/fake transactions that can be generated beforehand and aimed at the appropriate node that is generating that minute's block.  These fake transactions can be spit out by a relative handful of high speed servers logged into the testnet; the number of these transaction generating servers is TBD.  

We start with whatever the real NXT chain is just before the test.  60,000 transactions at 128 bytes per transaction will add 7.32 megabytes to the blockchain during the hour of the demonstration.  This seems like a reasonable amount.

I also propose that as part of the demonstration that we do blockchain pruning three times, at 20 minutes into the test, at 40 minutes into the test, and as the last block of the test.  

Notice that if we do this right we may still be able to use smartphones and Raspberry Pis in a 1000 TPS system.  In any given minute that is NOT a genesis block recalculation / pruning event, there is a block produced that is only 128K, and it's getting added to a file that's only at most ten or so megabytes long.  That doesn't sound too bad...

But it does imply that we might need beefier servers to do the genesis block reforging.  So some subset of all nodes with more capability would be selected every 20 minutes to do the presumably bigger chore of recasting a new genesis block.  This is a modification to transparent forging : every 20 minutes, pick from a small list of genesis block reforgers.  Maybe this opens up up to a 51% attack.  We can figure out how to stop that by adding more genesis nodes, right?

We can do this ourselves to show ourselves that it works.  We can then allow the press / the VCs / our competing cryptocoins to come up with their own input spreadsheets that have their proposed transaction inputs and what they expect as their account balance outputs after one hour.  We don't know their inputs or their outputs.  We provide seven blockchains for their inspection at the end: the original starting test blockchain, plus the before and after pruning blockchains from 20, 40 and 60 minutes into the test.

If we succeed in doing this, and demonstrating it under fire by sceptics in a testnet, THEN THE PRICE OF NXT EXPLODES AND WE ARE HEROES.  AND RICH.

We MUST implement blockchain pruning.  It is not optional.  Bitcoin does not have it.  If we do, we get ENORMOUS bragging rights.  What are we waiting for?  Turing complete language bolted onto NXT is an optional bit of fun.  Blockchain bloat pruning is A VITAL ESSENTIAL MUST-DO TASK, SO WHY NOT START ON THIS TASK TODAY???

Now after this burst of enthusiasm I must admit that I am not a programmer that can jump into this task.  We have got identify these programmers from with our own ranks and we've got to bribe them with a ridiculous NXT bounty to motivate them to jump on this task and complete it.  We have also got to define and fund the infrastructure required to create and sustain this 1000 TPS testnet so that any critics that want to demo it can do so at any time.  Two things I CAN do is keep ranting so this doesn't fall through the cracks, and ask questions whose answers can perhaps guide those smarter than me towards a solution.  

And I will do these two things, because I think coming up with a 1000 TPS one-hour simulator is really, really important.  So here's my first questions:

Do we currently know enough about the format of the NXT blockchain where we can start thinking about converting an existing blockchain into a new Genesis Block?  Or is there going to be a change to the NXT blockchain between now and open source release that will require us to wait for that release?

Let's just answer the questions one at a time, and discuss what it would take to make this testnet a reality.  

Humor me.  Let's see how far we can get with this.  It's really really really important.
  
Let me hear a HELL YEAH!
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February 06, 2014, 02:22:09 AM
 #30138

CfB:

How will new cryptos that use AM on top of NXT as their blockchain deal with the periodic purges of AM transactions?

And will implementation of .01 versus .001 for fees require differing amounts of work from dev teams ?
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February 06, 2014, 02:22:51 AM
 #30139

I can manage an mmmm, YEAH!

I think i get where ricky is going, seems +1 worthy.

Very late, upgrading VPS, not enthousiastic much.

Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
Love your money: www.nxt.org  www.ardorplatform.org
www.nxter.org  www.nxtfoundation.org
EvilDave
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February 06, 2014, 02:27:47 AM
 #30140

Immediate monstercrash starting 6.0 on my VPS....

Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
Love your money: www.nxt.org  www.ardorplatform.org
www.nxter.org  www.nxtfoundation.org
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