NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[iruu]

Maybe, I missed something. But what is a basic cryptographic function?

I meant commonly used things, like all shas. Also Curve25519 which is used by NXT, ecdsa used by bitcoin, perhaps something else.

Not sure. I get the intent. But what really bothers me is:

+, -, /, *, and, xor and the like will stay even in 20 years from now.

But sha256? Curve25519? These type of function come and go. They will inevitably become insecure. Having something like that as a low-level op is quite problematic I think.

Why is it problematic? They will just be unused, new ones will be added. We can have as many opcodes as we want. 

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[EvilDave]

If mini computers are still relevant, then maybe a NXT branded case could be an idea for conferences. These are mockups, but embossing aluminium could be an idea to give the 'forge' industrial look. I'm thinking of cutting/routing out the NXT logo, which would also act as a vent. This would look professional. Etching NXT Crypto could also be a idea. If anyone thinks this is worthwhile or has similar ideas, let me know and I'll keep tinkering.

I like it....


Yay: I''ve got 2 votes now. So it's a tie between Evillest being ever and Complete Pussycat.
Keep on voting....

On a serious topic.....there seems to be some forking going on. My VPS and my home node are on different planets right now, just watched my home node roll back a few hundred  blocks.

Can u guys have a look at your nodes/VPSes ?

Blockchain checks, go.

From my VPS:

59038      12292439833850569026      donderdag 6 februari 2014 0:55:12   
      
      0      0 + 0      0 B   
      
      2      3515348980133180958      1347 %

[iruu]

I like it....


Yay: I''ve got 2 votes now. So it's a tie between Evillest being ever and Complete Pussycat.
Keep on voting....

On a serious topic.....there seems to be some forking going on. My VPS and my home node are on different planets right now, just watched my home node roll back a few hundred  blocks.

Can u guys have a look at your nodes/VPSes ?

Blockchain checks, go.

Code:

59040 4747512364439223888

0 0 + 0 0 B

2 12043129049684076416 730 %

[jl777]

I officially request that the NXTcommunityfund put out a bounty for the first person that successfully forges a block onto a simulated 300 GB NXT blockchain in a testbed setup.  Full specifications of system used and documentation of experiences in accomplishing the task required to claim the reward.

If infrastructure committee does not take care of this, i will create bounty

I like fee of .1 nxt for now, we can adjust again later

I think marketing should shift to 100 tps and this allows raspis to be useful, let moores law keep doubling our tps. Bitcoin blockchain does not gain tps with moores law, nxt does

In two years 300 gb wont seem so big

Also, nxt core is such that all cool stuff, mission critical, competitor defensive, fun and quirky, everything can be developed in parallel as long as we have the resources.

We now have nearly 1 million usd budget to be able to fund everything in parallel, plus as nxt gains value so does budget!

These are very good developments for nxt! We are discussing seious issues and ways to improve all aspects of nxt. Everyone can contribute. I am so proud to be part of NXT!!!

James

holy crap.  you guys realize that telco bandwidths do not follow moores law, right?  at 300GB even publics nodes as SP's will choke on trying to transfer that

Advanced data compression algos are helped by moores law
Same for switches, routers
Cables are problem, but maybe big breakthrough in wireless bandwidth

[S3MKi]

Donate 5552153634766291106 if u like it! XD

[EvilDave]

Got 2 home nodes, 1 VPS, none of them agree with anything....bollocks

[opticalcarrier]

How is a token generated without a key? You can always ignore accounts without a key. 

yes, we would need to ignore votes from accounts w/o public keys if we went the token route.  but then, still people could amass an army of zombie accounts to vote their will, for just the fees of the initial transactions that created the public key

If you removed the token part then it comes with the issue of the standard 1acct=1vote model of people gaming it from multiple accounts

Why? There's no difference between sending nxt and generating a token. What matters is how you count a vote. 

dont quite follow you on this one

I say: accounts are irrelevant. Even that account age won't help. 1 vote = 1 user is not good. There is nothing at stake here.

If you pay more fees, then the option u paid for should be ranked higher. Then there is something at stake.

Still IMHO.

Don't know why 1 vote = 1 user should be good.

lol new guy missed out on all our previous 'fun'

[opticalcarrier]

Advanced data compression algos are helped by moores law
Same for switches, routers
Cables are problem, but maybe big breakthrough in wireless bandwidth

shannon says otherwise, and we are much closer to his comm theory limit than we are to running up on moore.  thats a very large maybe in there as well

[jl777]

Maybe, I missed something. But what is a basic cryptographic function?

I meant commonly used things, like all shas. Also Curve25519 which is used by NXT, ecdsa used by bitcoin, perhaps something else.

Not sure. I get the intent. But what really bothers me is:

+, -, /, *, and, xor and the like will stay even in 20 years from now.

But sha256? Curve25519? These type of functions come and go. They will inevitably become insecure. Having something like that as a low-level op is quite problematic I think.

I just want to make sure we can implement the fancy cross chain algos, dont care about details, just need to be able to do atomic cross blockchain transactions

[Meizirkki]

Would it be a good idea to automatically blacklist too old clients from connecting to new ones?

[iruu]

Why? There's no difference between sending nxt and generating a token. What matters is how you count a vote.  

dont quite follow you on this one

For 1 NXT = 1 vote, you need to:
- only accept vote from NXT on an account just before start of a vote (alternatively, just before first vote). This moment in time is now fixed, let's call it t.
- after decoding a token with a vote, check the balance for account at t.

That's it.  

[ChuckOne]

Why is it problematic? They will just be unused, new ones will be added. We can have as many opcodes as we want.  

The idea is to minimize it to a reasonable stable numbers of op-codes. Furthermore, each op should be worth the same amount of NXTs. It just doesn't fit so well. That's all. We could, in principle, add also square roots, differentiation, solving of systems of linear equations, QP, ... you get the idea.

The ones CfB mentioned are the very basis.

[jl777]

Advanced data compression algos are helped by moores law
Same for switches, routers
Cables are problem, but maybe big breakthrough in wireless bandwidth

shannon says otherwise, and we are much closer to his comm theory limit than we are to running up on moore.  thats a very large maybe in there as well

Adaptive bandwidth usage will be very important
We can have infrastructure that can handle bursts of very high tps, but only require lower sustained tps for all nodes

This should get R least two to one Advantage, maybe more
If moores law doesnt take us all the way to desired tps, we can always do the parallel blockchain approach
So both methods and we can be adaptive, ride moores law and have parallel blockchains

Details,details
Where is infrastructure committee?

[pandaisftw]

Hi CFB,

I think I've got it now. The final result;



And an extra image for the interested people.
Made it a little sketchy, because we are in development :p

Very nice, looks very serious.

http://wallet.nxtarea.com:7874/nxt?requestType=getBalance&account=11613767591090258913

http://www.nxtvote.com/view.php?vote=10667094504543355029

Someone voted the following for EvilDave -  "Yes, he is. Pure Evil thru and thru."


Seems the count is working. Double voting from the same account should be forbidden.

It also doesn't matter if you send 1 NXT or 5 NXT or 1000 NXT for the vote. It's always counting as 1 vote, as long as it comes from 1 account with the required attributes.

This system will be gamed, I guarantee it. What's to stop me from sending 100 accounts 1 NXT each now (to register public key), and in the future I will be able to have the voting power of 100 people? I simply transfer the minimum require funds to each account before the vote.

In addition, it seems that you are going for the more "fair" system, but by setting a minimum NXT holding limit, aren't you excluding all those who have less than this amount? So small stakeholders are being disenfranchised even more so than the 1 NXT = 1 vote system.

[ChuckOne]

I say: accounts are irrelevant. Even that account age won't help. 1 vote = 1 user is not good. There is nothing at stake here.

If you pay more fees, then the option u paid for should be ranked higher. Then there is something at stake.

Still IMHO.

Don't know why 1 vote = 1 user should be good.

lol new guy missed out on all our previous 'fun'

Don't know which posts you mean. But I followed the discussion for a long time now.

And still not convinced that 1 user = 1 vote is best way to vote if that very user has nothing at stake during voting. So, just voting because he can and has actual no real interest or knowledge in the topic.

[ChuckOne]

In addition, it seems that you are going for the more "fair" system, but by setting a minimum NXT holding limit, aren't you excluding all those who have less than this amount? So small stakeholders are being disenfranchised even more so than the 1 NXT = 1 vote system.

Do you mean with 1 NXT:
1) 1 NXT in balance
or
2) 1 NXT fee

[iruu]

The idea is to minimize it to a reasonable stable numbers of op-codes.

Why? Are we short on bytes in nxt client?

Furthermore, each op should be worth the same amount of NXTs.

Again, why? That's just a completely arbitrary restriction.

It just doesn't fit so well. That's all. We could, in principle, add also square roots, differentiation, solving of systems of linear equations, QP, ... you get the idea.

Why not?

Even Intel (and AMD) disagree with you, what with AES implemented in the cpu... and this is supposed to be an interpreted language where everything is possible and permitted

[pandaisftw]

In addition, it seems that you are going for the more "fair" system, but by setting a minimum NXT holding limit, aren't you excluding all those who have less than this amount? So small stakeholders are being disenfranchised even more so than the 1 NXT = 1 vote system.

Do you mean with 1 NXT:
1) 1 NXT in balance
or
2) 1 NXT fee

Either way. People with larger stakes will care more about what they vote on whether or not they have to pay for it.

I would say it is better to be based on 1 NXT = 1 vote (without pay), otherwise it will discourage voting. We want a large as possible agreement, so that means we want as much NXT in the system voting as possible.

[ChuckOne]

The idea is to minimize it to a reasonable stable numbers of op-codes.

Why? Are we short on bytes in nxt client?

I maybe repeating myself; read my previous posts.

It's not that would not be possible, theoretically, on the paper.
But, somebody has to implement it. The less, the better. The less, the less bugs, the less security issues, the less maintenance effort etc.
We discussed that issues at lengths some days ago.

Let high-level libraries handle the complex stuff.

Furthermore, each op should be worth the same amount of NXTs.

Again, why? That's just a completely arbitrary restriction.

Maybe, but it's a reasonable one. It simplifies a lot. See above.

Not because it can be done, should mean, it should be done.

It just doesn't fit so well. That's all. We could, in principle, add also square roots, differentiation, solving of systems of linear equations, QP, ... you get the idea.

Why not?

Even Intel (and AMD) disagrees with you, what with AES implemented in the cpu... and this is supposed to be an interpreted language where everything is possible and permitted

A low-level. So, each thing, you can build upon the very basis should be done on top of it. Not besides it: layered architecture.

It's just a pattern in computer science. It works quite well. Why violating it? Just because we can?

[martismartis]

Very strange behavior of 0.5.12. Recent blocks stopped before 59000. Had to delete .nxt and download everything from scratch both om public node and private node.

Interesting which critical error was before 0.5.12