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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2750636 times)
l8orre
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February 08, 2014, 08:59:55 AM
 #31121

Do we have a thread for those who deserve Dev Bounties from unclaimed Nxt?  I recommend the following allocation for dev:

l8oore (asset exchange) - 200k

We can add to these amounts in the future for ongoing projects.

I would like to see an asset exchange in action... cause i was going to implement it.
Since it is already done not sure if i will have to do so.

Yes, to be clear, these are for finished product, in the case of QBTC, it's more of a maintenance fee.

Hey that is good news in the Morning!

I will be scrambling to release it with the start of the AE on the mainNet.

The babies name will be nxtFreeRider

Anyone googling for images of freerider will have to know what they'll be using.

Also, it won't compete with the other full feature clients- because it won't be one.

On the other hand, it has the potential to become a reference implentation for the NXT API,
and it can be extended by anybody easily by modifying existing stuff in there.














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February 08, 2014, 09:00:20 AM
 #31122

Updates - 07/02/2014
- Shows multiple balances.
- Shows node status (Green = ON, Blue = OFF)

Now effective balance 136'722.00 NXT!!!

NXTCoin first automated forging platform!
Website: http://www.nxtio.org/

Is that really what we want? Centralization?

+1

I thank the pool operators for trying to provide a service for the community, but I think forging should remain individual.  Granted, Nxt is resistant to up to 90% concentration attacks, but I don't think this is a path we want to follow for multiple reasons.  Sooner or later, someone will open a pool and run off with everyone's Nxt.  I'm not saying the current ops will do this, but it's bound to happen.

You don't get any more using a pool, you just get more consistent payouts.

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jl777
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February 08, 2014, 09:01:50 AM
 #31123

If the source to SMTP server is reviewed that it does send the email (backed up with test results) and as part of the sending process it adds a hash value of email to the blockchain. I think that allows peer verification, please explain where I am wrong. I am certain I have made mistakes somewhere and I am still coming up to speed with this whole decentralized blockchain approach.

You might think that you could try to guarantee than an email has actually been sent if the "receiver" indicated that they had received it through another AM, however, just because they didn't receive it doesn't mean that it was sent - again - "there is simply NO WAY to do this - so please stop trying now" (you are wasting time just as much as you would trying to solve "the halting problem").

Understand that this is why you don't want to mix up stuff from "within the blockchain" to stuff that is "outside the blockchain" as only the former can ever "be proven by the blockchain".

Maybe proving that reviewed source code was invoked is useless in the case of email. Its advantages are that it is easy to verify, easy to understand what it does. Its purpose is NOT to send emails, but to work out architecture issues for plugins

A txid in the blockchain only means that the plugin code was executed. That is probably not enough, without error handling, etc., but this is first proof of concept version that is meant to be evolved with more and more robust solutions. Of course, we wont use it for actual sending of email

What I am looking for in the blockchain is that code was executed without error. For example, if the code that was executed is code that verified the existence of a transaction in the bitcoin blockchain, this mechanism can be used to step through the cross chain algos.

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February 08, 2014, 09:02:33 AM
 #31124

Please try to understand I am using email as a proof of concept for a NXTplugin. I have stated repeatedly that it is not intended for actual usage, but rather to work out the issues of having NXTplugins.

I am not even quite sure what a NXTplugin *is* but if it does has anything to do with the Nxt VM and its "scripts" then an email plugin would only be a "proof of what NOT to do".

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
jl777
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February 08, 2014, 09:03:25 AM
 #31125

If the source to SMTP server is reviewed that it does send the email (backed up with test results) and as part of the sending process it adds a hash value of email to the blockchain. I think that allows peer verification, please explain where I am wrong. I am certain I have made mistakes somewhere and I am still coming up to speed with this whole decentralized blockchain approach.

You might think that you could try to guarantee than an email has actually been sent if the "receiver" indicated that they had received it through another AM, however, just because they didn't receive it doesn't mean that it was sent - again - "there is simply NO WAY to do this - so please stop trying now" (you are wasting time just as much as you would trying to solve "the halting problem").

Besides, there are many other problems. Most of these emails would end up in spam folders anyway

Sender Policy Framework

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Policy_Framework

As long as the people testing it can get the emails, it would have served its purpose. The purpose is not to send emails but to verify that a plugin has executed. Think of it as a poor mans SNARK

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February 08, 2014, 09:03:29 AM
 #31126

I don't see why you would want a Nxt VM script to "output an email" (or do anything else outside of the blockchain for that matter) - you do understand that whether such email was actually even really sent simply *cannot be proven* (as you are dealing with SMTP rather than a blockchain)?

Also SMTP is going to require accounts that need to be signed into and you don't want to end up with people effectively running "relay servers" or they'll end up on email blacklists.

Wouldn't it make more sense for such things to be services instead?

About walking vs. running - you are getting far too excited jl777 - can you just take something to slow down to a pace that we can keep up with (by the time we've tried to discuss one of your ideas you typically have posted 3 others).

NXTsmtp is just for proof of concept that incorporates something everybody is familiar with. I want to verify the peer verifiability of hardcoded NXTplugin followed by external NXTplugin. I am not worried about NXTsmtp for anything other than proving that NXTplugins work and are peer verified. At first I couldnt understand how on earth a DAC could be implemented. When I started thinking about email plugin, it became not as hard.

If the source to SMTP server is reviewed that it does send the email (backed up with test results) and as part of the sending process it adds a hash value of email to the blockchain. I think that allows peer verification, please explain where I am wrong. I am certain I have made mistakes somewhere and I am still coming up to speed with this whole decentralized blockchain approach.

The problem is that I see all of the things I am posting about as connected. Like the elephant described by different people. All sounds very different, but it is all the same elephant. If I described the elephant in its entirety, it wouldnt fit in posts. I feel a great sense of urgency due to competitive pressures.

James

P.S. I usually dont post when I am sleeping or flying Smiley

I could think of useful ideas for onchain plugins. But offchain?

It's the same as with other offchain activities like crosschain exchange, fiat exchange. Nxt has no control of process outside of it.

Anyway, what I wanted to add is: we should reserve a branch for each plugin on the blockchain. That is nodes that do not want to contribute to that chain does not need to download the data.
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February 08, 2014, 09:06:56 AM
 #31127

What I am looking for in the blockchain is that code was executed without error. For example, if the code that was executed is code that verified the existence of a transaction in the bitcoin blockchain, this mechanism can be used to step through the cross chain algos.

Okay - well in that case why not make your "prototype" plugin check for the existence of a Bitcoin transaction instead (that has at least x confirmations)?

The "script" will have "state" so any "plugin calls" it makes would presumably have some sort of "return value" that could be checked and/or kept in the script's state.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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jl777
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February 08, 2014, 09:10:17 AM
 #31128

Please try to understand I am using email as a proof of concept for a NXTplugin. I have stated repeatedly that it is not intended for actual usage, but rather to work out the issues of having NXTplugins.

I am not even quite sure what a NXTplugin *is* but if it does has anything to do with the Nxt VM and its "scripts" then an email plugin would only be a "proof of what NOT to do".

I want to find out what changes need to be made to NXT core to support plugins
My constraint is to not utilizing CfB or jean-luc or anybody else on mission critical development

I wanted to think through how to implement DAC in the real world. I have asked for but received ZERO help other than from Alias, so I pushed forward on my own. I am open to suggestions on how to implement DAC's especially under NXT framework. All of this helps with solving the issue of adding zerocoin and other cool features.

What good is NXT VM if all it can do is create an AM for output? The true value add would be for that output to directly do things outside the NXT blockchain.

Please dont get bogged down on the unreliability of email. The important thing is if we can actually verify whether code external to current Java core has actually be executed. If we can do this, then a whole new world opens up

James

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February 08, 2014, 09:13:03 AM
 #31129

Updates - 07/02/2014
- Shows multiple balances.
- Shows node status (Green = ON, Blue = OFF)

Now effective balance 136'722.00 NXT!!!

NXTCoin first automated forging platform!
Website: http://www.nxtio.org/

Is that really what we want? Centralization?
Not think it is as big concentration. My goal is to create different accounts as you get to an acceptable amount.

I thank the pool operators for trying to provide a service for the community, but I think forging should remain individual.  Granted, Nxt is resistant to up to 90% concentration attacks, but I don't think this is a path we want to follow for multiple reasons.  Sooner or later, someone will open a pool and run off with everyone's Nxt.  I'm not saying the current ops will do this, but it's bound to happen.

You don't get any more using a pool, you just get more consistent payouts.
Those with very few nxt could forge something through my system. Also, consider that you can be forged without being individually 24hr online.

I think it has advantages and disadvantages.

Yet to be seen, if it is efficient. Is a long-term experiment.
And think that in less than a week running, seem going to to work very well.


If you do not use all your NXTcoin's and you never open your client, what purpose are your NXTcoin's? I think NXTio is the answer to this problem, so I decided to give a solution.

Sorry the bad English, I really speak Spanish.
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February 08, 2014, 09:13:42 AM
 #31130

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-01/27/bitcloud
http://maidsafe.net/

Any new ideas here? Decentralized internet and cloud services based on the (Nxt) platform, coupled  with a currency and a Proof of Work (or Service) system, that gives the users an initiative to provide space and resources?

Looks similar to Nxt Service Providers.

For the people with less knowledge: Clarify exactly with more than 3 words what's your definition of "service providers" is.
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February 08, 2014, 09:14:10 AM
 #31131

What I am looking for in the blockchain is that code was executed without error. For example, if the code that was executed is code that verified the existence of a transaction in the bitcoin blockchain, this mechanism can be used to step through the cross chain algos.

Okay - well in that case why not make your "prototype" plugin check for the existence of a Bitcoin transaction instead (that has at least x confirmations)?

The "script" will have "state" so any "plugin calls" it makes would presumably have some sort of "return value" that could be checked and/or kept in the script's state.

I didnt think there was a chance to find bitcoind in Java form that jean-luc would consider adding to NXT core.

It is MUCH simpler to solve the issues with a hardcoded NXTplugin since we dont have to deal with Evil Bob changing the executable. Not having to worry about Evil Bob seemed prudent for the first attempt at adding parsing of AM data to see what plugins to call, etc.

If we cant solve the issue with simple hardcoded plugin, no chance for complex external plugin. That is why I chose email as the proof of concept.

Also, for testing, it will be much more nervous if it was bitcoin transactions for the first attempt at plugin. Doing this step was a couple miniprojects down the road. Believe it or not, I am pacing myself!

James

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February 08, 2014, 09:14:17 AM
 #31132

node17.nxtbase.com      node17.nxtbase.com      7'000      96 B      453 B      NRS (0.4.9e) @ 22k

Did this person leave nxt in the closet and only coming back in one years time to see the price change?  Grin

Fuck Mt.Gox! Fuck Mintpal! Fuck Bter! FUCK kyc! Protect yourself use MGW! SUPERNET!
Recommended ASSET ->InstantDex : Lead Dev Jl777 (decentralized multi currency instant exchange)
Recommended ASSET -> Jinn : Lead Dev Come-from-Beyond (ternary processors!)
https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/(ann)-jinn/
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February 08, 2014, 09:14:35 AM
 #31133


Here is my idea for avoiding blockchain bloat while doing 1000TPS. I am surprised nobody mentioned this, so it is either because it is a really bad idea for some reason, or too obvious nobody bothered??

From my understanding, it will be possible to have regular snapshots of the entire state of the NXT blockchain so that you wont need to parse all the blocks from genesis.

Secondly, very little of this "entire state of NXT" data has a life beyond 1440 blocks.

So, my proposal is to generate a daily snapshot, peer reviewed by nodes, checksummed, fingerprinted, signatured, whatever we need to make sure it is a valid unmolested snapshot. We actually dont even need these snapshots, but while we are doing this, might as well avoid having to download the entire blockchain. Bandwidth savings alone makes it worthwhile.

OK, so one way or another, let us assume the node is current. Now the problem is keeping up with 1000TPS (lets make the overall network adaptive so we can handle bursts of 1000TPS, sustained 250 TPS) and that requires bandwidth, though with binary data, 250 TPS should be around what 100TPS will be now. So 100kbps would be enough to handle bursts of 1000TPS and sustained 250TPS

But where does all that data go?

Actually, I say just throw it away! Why can't we use a FIFO that stores the most recent 1441 blocks for all the blockchains (when we go parallel). Since we synced the the full blockchain with the last days checkpoint, then as long as we are properly updating the "entire state of NXT network" at any given block, we are able to forge a valid block.

Unless I totally missed some reason why we need to locally store more than the last 1441 blocks, this should work. We can then specify that any NXT VM (Turing scripts) will need to be designed to use only data from prior 1440 blocks. This I do not see as a big limitation as if it is really important the client issuing script can just get data it needs and put it into AM. So, the NXTcore would need to implement the FIFO, preferably based on a web.xml parameter. That would allow people who run NXT VM generating clients to have access to exactly the window of time they need.

I hope this puts useful forging back on the table for raspis. 100kbps to fully support 1000TPS (peak output) NXT network

James

I think, snapshots were mentioned or spoken about a couple of times.
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February 08, 2014, 09:15:33 AM
Last edit: February 08, 2014, 09:26:54 AM by bitcoinpaul
 #31134

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-01/27/bitcloud
http://maidsafe.net/

Any new ideas here? Decentralized internet and cloud services based on the (Nxt) platform, coupled  with a currency and a Proof of Work (or Service) system, that gives the users an initiative to provide space and resources?

I live up the road from Kim Dot Com and he's very approachable. Perhaps he could play a role.

Kim is a lone wolf, but we could try?!
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February 08, 2014, 09:16:37 AM
 #31135

James, has anyone been successful in contacting anyone from the zerocoin/cash team?
rickyjames has had no luck. I think we need to show them a working NXTcash testnet. talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words

I've reached out to several Zerocoin members; Matthew Green, Ian Miers and Christina Garman.  All of which were personally referred to me by other Professors.  I did receive a response from Matthew about our initial algo review, but nothing more.  I'm not holding high hopes for getting help with Zerocoin from any of their core group.  We need to explore other options.  
The option I chose was to push forward on our own as fast as we can!

I can't recall keywords now, but AFAIK there is a way to validate encrypted transactions. U don't see who paid whom but u r able to check that coins r not created out of thin air. Such encrypted transactions require that at some step u reveal data of a particular transaction. Also u can't use multiplication of numbers (only 1 time is possible IIRC). Maybe it could be used for anonymization too? No need to "mix" coins, the goal is just to break the links between accounts.

Interesting. So we have NXTcash and your idea right now for the project "anonymous transactions", right?
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February 08, 2014, 09:17:39 AM
 #31136

I don't see why you would want a Nxt VM script to "output an email" (or do anything else outside of the blockchain for that matter) - you do understand that whether such email was actually even really sent simply *cannot be proven* (as you are dealing with SMTP rather than a blockchain)?

Also SMTP is going to require accounts that need to be signed into and you don't want to end up with people effectively running "relay servers" or they'll end up on email blacklists.

Wouldn't it make more sense for such things to be services instead?

About walking vs. running - you are getting far too excited jl777 - can you just take something to slow down to a pace that we can keep up with (by the time we've tried to discuss one of your ideas you typically have posted 3 others).

NXTsmtp is just for proof of concept that incorporates something everybody is familiar with. I want to verify the peer verifiability of hardcoded NXTplugin followed by external NXTplugin. I am not worried about NXTsmtp for anything other than proving that NXTplugins work and are peer verified. At first I couldnt understand how on earth a DAC could be implemented. When I started thinking about email plugin, it became not as hard.

If the source to SMTP server is reviewed that it does send the email (backed up with test results) and as part of the sending process it adds a hash value of email to the blockchain. I think that allows peer verification, please explain where I am wrong. I am certain I have made mistakes somewhere and I am still coming up to speed with this whole decentralized blockchain approach.

The problem is that I see all of the things I am posting about as connected. Like the elephant described by different people. All sounds very different, but it is all the same elephant. If I described the elephant in its entirety, it wouldnt fit in posts. I feel a great sense of urgency due to competitive pressures.

James

P.S. I usually dont post when I am sleeping or flying Smiley

I could think of useful ideas for onchain plugins. But offchain?

It's the same as with other offchain activities like crosschain exchange, fiat exchange. Nxt has no control of process outside of it.

Anyway, what I wanted to add is: we should reserve a branch for each plugin on the blockchain. That is nodes that do not want to contribute to that chain does not need to download the data.
What if NXT was extended to deal with additional features and then added that to the blockchain. If we extend the meaning of NXT blockchain, then what used to be offchain becomes onchain.

THAT is what I am trying to do. Open the possibility of making anything we can fit into an AM into something that we can see was called, onchain. Now the issue of is running the code enough is answered by as long as all the error cases are reported and handled properly, I think it very well could be.

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
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February 08, 2014, 09:18:26 AM
 #31137

ind ourself that the POSSIBILITY of 1000TPS brings us to 1000TPS in a few years. If we now state "not possible", we lose one feature.

1000TPS will not even touch the sides in a few years, if NXT manages to get it right.

In the adoption of e-currency in emerging markets are light years ahead of western markets. I know its not crypto but the average citizen in the emerging market cares about the outcome not the technology and in this model crucially the bank or telco offering the service helps the person get the money back if it goes astray - when your income is $10 / day then you are very careful where you put your money.

There have until recently been just 2 african countries where this has taken off but from 2012 this phenomenon has been spreading to other countries where telco's or banks basically take away the FIAT and provide electronic tokens that can be used by dumb text phones, to move money electronically and instantly via and e-wallet and yes these phones will be around a long time. no PCs no smart phones - these countries are still toxic to these technologies.

The recent GSMA report I've seen shows at least 10 countries where adoption of this way of paying is following a hyperbolic or hockey stick trajectory. In one of these countries the transaction platform can perform around between 300-400tps and resides in Europe not Africa.

Over a day in one of the major African markets demand can go from 0tps to 500tps, this is with only around 15m active customers and the market is less than 30% penetrated in terms of retail transactions and this is only one country. Average transaction time is <10s with full confirmation (yes this includes shipping everything from Africa to Germany and back) and for small transactions the cost is ZERO.

This kind of stuff is now being trialled in India, and there the transaction volumes will be way higher than 1000tps if you break into the for retail space, but for retail unlike general P2P you need instant transactions - VISA fakes it (authorise and then clear later), the e-money platforms do it all realtime and currently the crypto currencies do not address the problem of the retailer. Although some posts from I think cfb about how to implement instant transactions is the first I've seen of a crypto solution to this problem and i would hang onto it even if its implemented later.

So I would plan for far higher than 1000tps, solve the accompanying block chain problem and make sure you can do instant transactions, unless you just want to nibble around the crumbs that VISA / Mastercard will drop - both of whom have bough e-money platform companies...

With parallel chains, we could tackle the >1000TPS and other things like touring stuff... who is in charge of parallel chains? BCNext? JL? Community?
bitcoinpaul
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February 08, 2014, 09:20:12 AM
 #31138

What about securing the network by giving the nodes running with the full blockchain a higher forging chance motivating the owners to go on with the full blockchain?
Others, like the guys on a rasp or on a smartphone would use a "light" version of the blockchain (something like James proposed)

If we start pruning someone needs to keep a full copy I guess so some kind of motivation would be needed to maintain this as a service to the network with associated bandwidth etc.

Phone clients should not need a block chain at all (unless someone really wants to burn battery and data bundles forging) when we have proper clients and should just access a public node with a full copy for any block chain needs.

Lightweight phone clients will not forge but verify transactions itself and send it to nodes. I hope someone is developing this "client side verification process" right now.
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February 08, 2014, 09:21:24 AM
 #31139

I didnt think there was a chance to find bitcoind in Java form that jean-luc would consider adding to NXT core.

Why would you need/want that rather than just doing RPC commands to a "real bitcoind"?

It is MUCH simpler to solve the issues with a hardcoded NXTplugin since we dont have to deal with Evil Bob changing the executable. Not having to worry about Evil Bob seemed prudent for the first attempt at adding parsing of AM data to see what plugins to call, etc.

You are *always* going to have Evil Bob using the "wrong plugin" and *you will not be able to tell* especially if your plugin has no way to be verified (which was the point about an SMTP plugin).

If we cant solve the issue with simple hardcoded plugin, no chance for complex external plugin. That is why I chose email as the proof of concept.

Exactly my concern - a plugin that issues a "bitcoind" RPC command (hell - why not just use "blockchain.info" for that matter) is at least *verifiable* in that given x servers running the "supposedly same" plugin you would get the exact same result from all of them (if they are able to give a result at all that is).

If you want a "dead simple" plugin then how about one that just does this:

return "hello";

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
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February 08, 2014, 09:21:44 AM
 #31140

Updates - 07/02/2014
- Shows multiple balances.
- Shows node status (Green = ON, Blue = OFF)

Now effective balance 136'722.00 NXT!!!

NXTCoin first automated forging platform!
Website: http://www.nxtio.org/

Is that really what we want? Centralization?
Not think it is as big concentration. My goal is to create different accounts as you get to an acceptable amount.

I thank the pool operators for trying to provide a service for the community, but I think forging should remain individual.  Granted, Nxt is resistant to up to 90% concentration attacks, but I don't think this is a path we want to follow for multiple reasons.  Sooner or later, someone will open a pool and run off with everyone's Nxt.  I'm not saying the current ops will do this, but it's bound to happen.

You don't get any more using a pool, you just get more consistent payouts.
Those with very few nxt could forge something through my system. Also, consider that you can be forged without being individually 24hr online.

I think it has advantages and disadvantages.

Yet to be seen, if it is efficient. Is a long-term experiment.
And think that in less than a week running, seem going to to work very well.


If you do not use all your NXTcoin's and you never open your client, what purpose are your NXTcoin's? I think NXTio is the answer to this problem, so I decided to give a solution.

Sorry the bad English, I really speak Spanish.

You make some valid points.  People who can't run their client 24/7 benefit and the network benefits.  Nxt is certainly in a better position to deal with security concentration than it's PoW counterparts.

Thanks again for providing a service to the community.

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