NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[EvilDave]

Just caught up with the thread, with a couple of short interruptions to pick my G/F up from the airport and for my No.1 PC to explode.

I <expletive deleted> hate <expletive deleted> computers.

I like the auroracoin/krona idea, though. Auroracoin would be easy enough, but how hard/legally tricky is it to set up the krona end of the equation?
Set up some semi-random BTC/scryptcoin pairs in any case, may i suggest we just use the top 5 cryptos from a mining profitability calculator ? Like:
http://cointweak.com/calculator/index/scrypt
Miiners love that shit, and will be very happy to get into bed with NXT if they can shift profitable coin that often has a limited number of exchanges available. Maybe we can then persuade them to host some nodes.....

Going to be rebuilding stupid PCs after I get out of bed. Sleep tight, Europe.

EDIT: +100 to the above.

[rickyjames]

NXT FUNDING COMMITTEE VOTE IS NOW UNDERWAY UNTIL 12:15 AM MARCH 8 (UTC)

Does that mean that votes are limited to nominees and candidates by default ? just wondering.

Everybody gets to vote.  I have edited my original post to clarify.

I had hoped to have this better organized at this point, but I've had a bad week.  Sorry.

Hey, guys, if you would, please edit your quote of my vote post so only the corrected original one shows up in the thread here.  Thx.

Thanks rickyjames for putting in the work. I think your reputation is impeccable but imho there may be an issue with voting setup this way as you are the only one who know who votes and by exclusion who does not vote. This may turn out well because people trust you but let's consider this case. If in a certain committee, the fifth voted candidate is only one or two votes above the sixth voted candidate, then sixth candidate should have the right to question you about what criterion you use to decide if an user who asked you for voting can get the right to vote (password+username in this case). It could get even worse if the sixth voted candidate is someone supposed to get in by the public while fifth voted candidate is not.  
"Everybody gets to vote" is probably not a well-thought proposition because that means you are giving the votes to new users, as well as Emule if he wants so. So I guess you will use some kind of criterion which imo should be well-defined ASAP.

To be honest, I prefer the open voting style with some activity criterion used back then when we voted for NXT logo. Since the way it is set up now will leave quite a few question marks on the shoulder of the voting organizer. It could work given Rickyhames impeccable reputation but I would rather avoid this type of precedent.

Well, I do have criteria in my mind which should be stated up front.  I do not intend to send a code to anybody who established an account after we started this election process a week ago, and if I don't recognize a familiar name, I intend to check.  

As for Emule....why should he not vote?  He is a PITA.  So what?

Lurkers - they should get to vote too, I think.  Lurking is not a crime.

Hopefully this will all turn out OK, with the community overwhelming any outliers as they should.  We'll see.  

I agree the possibility exists that some kind of sticky situation coming up at the end.  It is my intention to publish at the end everybody's name who voted and their assigned ID/password.   I am the first filter as an caring individual to make sure that there is no manipulation.  I want to give out as much info at the end so the group as a whole can make that determination too as a second filter.

As far as your worst case scenario, that a sixth person overwhelms a fifth that "should" have won - I don't really see how that can happen or how anybody would know it had happened.  What I worry about is a runoff to break a tie.

All I can say is let's go forward and see what DOES happen.  I've got some codes to mail out....

[Fern]

TestNXT please

18124369775920592423

[EmoneyRu]

TestNXT please

18124369775920592423

if someone needs testNXT - please write your test acc here: https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=832

[2Kool4Skewl]

I'm trying to simulate TF using Ian's program if we limit all accounts to a 1% forge balance.  Using 100 accounts holding 1% of the currency over a ten year period, I'm getting a combined best streak of ~23.  This is combining the first 50 accounts.  (These are the accounts assumed to be under the same control.)

very cool.  I cant do this type of stuff - too busy with other things.  I have a question of this scenario though; is it adding even more risk by prohibiting full balances from forging?  If we prohibit lots of NXT from forging, then does the possibility of someone obtaining 90% of forging power (though forcing to use multiple accounts to do so) actually increase?

Good point.  By limiting forging power to 1% per account, I think we are opening ourselves up to a greater threat.  Any thoughts?

Come-from-Beyond said that the TF algo wasn't going to undergo any more changes, but BCNext mentioned that later TF was going to penalize accounts?  Come-from-Beyond, can you please clarify this?

[2Kool4Skewl]

I'm considering locking this thread on page 2100.  What are everyones' thoughts?

I don't want to interrupt communication, but I think we would make more progress if we were better organized.

Poll - https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=839

[jl777]

@james
(and others)

Speaking of Iceland...

I’m considering the marketing effect if we tested a NxtCoin as national currency in Christiania, Copenhagen. It’s a self-proclaimed autonomous neighbourhood of about 850 residents. But Christiania is visited by 500.000 tourists every year.

The media attention that Christiania gets, will benefit us. And vice versa. And in quite a few ways we share common grounds. It's like the old meets the new.

Christiania is a social experiment in it's origin. Talking decision making, it's a live version of our Nxt community. Chrisitanists make consensus-based decisions in matters that concern their whole community. OMG, it's long haired, and I admire it, the strength of discussing until consensus is reached. In difficult matters, this could be the next morning, or half a year. But they always get there.

Customers in Christiania choose whether they want their change in Danish Kroner or LØN (the Christianian currency since 1997). Christiania has it's own coin! - but they might be interested in going digital. Christiania has strong feelings about the environment, and with Nxt “making Greenpeace happy” and all, it would be a perfect fit.

Christiania "consensus"-meetings are closed for outsiders, but I am pretty sure that I can get in + bring another from the Nxt community with me, using my contacts. Even if the whole of Christiania does not agree on making a unique LØN NxtCoin their local currency, the shops in Christiania could easily begin accepting Nxt.

Imagine the media attention, if a society like Christiania agreed on making Nxt - or a coin made on top of Nxt - their "national currency". If "INTERESTED", let me know.

/apenzl

I think we should make a coin for every country! Maybe state, region, city, organization, etc. The more NXTcoins, the better. With AE, it is really just a little bit of tech and more about finding the market. Any cohesive group you can find can certainly get their own coin. The more coins we have, the more things get valued in NXT.

James

[jl777]

An "automated gateway" for NXT is just a decentralized exchange right?

Would it be possible to get it to look as much like an Exchange (think Bter, Cryptsy, etc.) as possible? Or is that not what an automated gateway would look like? Keep it simple and understandable for everyone that trades on the other exchanges.


If I have it all wrong...then sorry haha 

The gateway is actually just the "finances" page of the exchange. the page where you go to get a new deposit address or submit a request for withdrawal.

The trading happens within AE. Gateway just allows all other crypto to be directly traded by proxy, with assurance that they can be redeemed for the real thing

There is no reason that the clients can display the crypto AE's in a format nearly identical to what you see on exchanges and I strongly recommend that they do. Even though the bid/ask resolution is .01 NXT, as long as you are trading larger lots you can get a lot more decimal places in the price. The trade page can sort based on this higher precision price.

James

[xiahui135]

can somebody answer me a question?

I withdraw 200 nxt coin to my account about 1 month ago.  i can see my balance in the blockchain records.
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=13001171831413444318

but there is no any credit in my account when i logged in.
plus: i logged in at local address https://127.0.0.1:7875/

ths.

[2Kool4Skewl]

can somebody answer me a question?

I withdraw 200 nxt coin to my account about 1 month ago.  i can see my balance in the blockchain records.
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=13001171831413444318

but there is no any credit in my account when i logged in.
plus: i logged in at local address https://127.0.0.1:7875/

ths.

Has your client downloaded the entire blockchain?  Wait a few minutes and see if your balance shows up.

[xiahui135]

can somebody answer me a question?

I withdraw 200 nxt coin to my account about 1 month ago.  i can see my balance in the blockchain records.
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=13001171831413444318

but there is no any credit in my account when i logged in.
plus: i logged in at local address https://127.0.0.1:7875/

ths.

Has your client downloaded the entire blockchain?  Wait a few minutes and see if your balance shows up.

maybe it is the problem. my client always show last transaction time nov.24 2013.

[wakasaki808]

can somebody answer me a question?

I withdraw 200 nxt coin to my account about 1 month ago.  i can see my balance in the blockchain records.
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=13001171831413444318

but there is no any credit in my account when i logged in.
plus: i logged in at local address https://127.0.0.1:7875/

ths.

are you using NRS 0.8.3? It shouldn't take too long to update

[2Kool4Skewl]

can somebody answer me a question?

I withdraw 200 nxt coin to my account about 1 month ago.  i can see my balance in the blockchain records.
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=13001171831413444318

but there is no any credit in my account when i logged in.
plus: i logged in at local address https://127.0.0.1:7875/

ths.

Has your client downloaded the entire blockchain?  Wait a few minutes and see if your balance shows up.

maybe it is the problem. my client always show last transaction time nov.24 2013.

Make sure that you are using the most recent client 0.8.3 and give it some time to download the blockchain.

[xiahui135]

can somebody answer me a question?

I withdraw 200 nxt coin to my account about 1 month ago.  i can see my balance in the blockchain records.
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=13001171831413444318

but there is no any credit in my account when i logged in.
plus: i logged in at local address https://127.0.0.1:7875/

ths.

are you using NRS 0.8.3? It shouldn't take too long to update

------------
the problem has been solved. i download nxt solaris, and it seems work.
thank you~

[jl777]

James,

I have a few more questions about your gateway, if you have time to answer. I am starting to realize what the capabilities of this gateway are. This understanding raised the question: If someone will be able to send an external asset to the gateway and it is then represented by an internal asset that can be traded on the AE, what happens to the external asset? Is it held in a collective wallet, like an escrow account or security account? Or is the external asset even transferred at all and the AE generated internal asset is just a promise to pay, and the holder of the External asset would still have to be trusted to deliver the asset once traded?  I know you are busy, and hate to keep bugging you, I just was pondering the implications of this.

I am doing a nearly atomic exchange of the actual crypto with NXT asset. The only glitch could be during an internal transfer, the NXT asset issuance fails for some reason. I havent had a chance to implement full error handling, it is only 10 days old, but when all the error cases are handled, all the confirmed crypto deposits will match up to confirmed NXT asset transfers.

The actual crypto is put into a multisig account. That is why it took me so long to get the alpha release. I had to tediously construct rawtransactions based on looking at all of the unspent outputs, which I had to recreate since bitcoind (at least dogecoind) didnt seem to properly track multisig transactions.

The AE asset therefore represents not just a promise to pay, but there will be a publicly visible multisig acct with the funds there. There will be a gatewaychain.info analogous to blockchain.info where you can verify deposits and withdrawals and their intermediate state.

To add more weight to the promise to redeem the asset for the crypto, multiple (3) gateways are simultaneously monitoring the NXT blockchain for asset transfers back that are coming in for redemption. All gateways query their local bitcoind and generate a proposed rawtransaction and a signed rawtransaction. Every single byte of the raw transaction must be identical between all of the gateways, then the selected gateway signs the already signed rawtransaction from one of the other gateways and submits it to the network.

I will be creating NODEcoin 2.0, which in addition to rewarding people for forging, will be actively validating all gateway transactions and will generate alerts if it ever detects any funny business. As long as the gateway monitors are happy, all is well. I dont expect more than an occasional yellow alert, when there is a network glitch and a transaction has to be manually resent. With the malleability issue, we need to be careful about blindly trusting any request for manual payment.

As long as the NXT community operated gateways continue to function and two of the independent gateway operators dont collude, all the withdrawals are assured. In case the deposit balance in the multisig accounts get too big, we can always fragment them and have dozens of multisig accts, each with a small fraction of the overall balance. Minimize the size of the acct to remove temptation to steal it, and require cooperation of another party to pull of the withdrawal.

I would think that most people would assess the security of this setup as much more secure than trusting some centralized exchange from going rogue or being hacked (c-cex for 300 BTC, poloniex for 150 BTC both this past week) or going belly up (Mtgox, etc).

Properly implemented after thorough testing and review, there would be no practical difference between trading a NXT AE crypto asset or the real thing. We will get the automated gateway so reliable that we will be able to offer NDIC (NXT deposit insurance), max 10000 NXT per person 100000 NXT total. So if the gateway ever causes a loss, there will be the insurance to cover some of the losses.

James

P.S. Can some marketing types take all this and make it nice and presentable?

[jl777]

I'm considering locking this thread on page 2100.  What are everyones' thoughts?

I don't want to interrupt communication, but I think we would make more progress if we were better organized.

Poll - https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=839

I didnt realize our progress was so slow...
I find it really convenient that everything NXT is here. If I have to keep going to many different places, there is a much larger chance that I will miss something.
Please dont kill this thread. Its cool. Its history.
All that would happen is that someone (me) will create a new thread, so it wont serve any purpose.

James

[Uniqueorn]

Developers, we made it into a scientific paper (as NXTcoin, lol), it claims that PoS is easily "killed" by a 51% attack:

It Will Cost You Nothing to 'Kill' a Proof-of-Stake Crypto-Currency

Abstract:     
It is a widely spread belief that crypto-currencies implementing a proof of stake transaction validation system are less vulnerable to a 51% attack than crypto-currencies implementing a proof of work transaction validation system. In this article, we show that it is not the case and that, in fact, if the attacker’s motivation is large enough (and this is common knowledge), he will succeed in his attack at no cost.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2393940

Responses?

[wakasaki808]

Developers, we made it into a scientific paper (as NXTcoin, lol), it claims that PoS is easily "killed" by a 51% attack:

It Will Cost You Nothing to 'Kill' a Proof-of-Stake Crypto-Currency

Abstract:     
It is a widely spread belief that crypto-currencies implementing a proof of stake transaction validation system are less vulnerable to a 51% attack than crypto-currencies implementing a proof of work transaction validation system. In this article, we show that it is not the case and that, in fact, if the attacker’s motivation is large enough (and this is common knowledge), he will succeed in his attack at no cost.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2393940

Responses?

was talked about earlier

Nxt is mentioned here - http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2393940 (It Will Cost You Nothing to 'Kill' a Proof-of-Stake Crypto-Currency)

Resume of this paper: All PoS coins will die except Nxt coz it's 90% attack-proof.

It doesn't matter how many coins are needed for destruction in his model, even 99.9% attack-proof currency would fall. 
It doesn't matter for NXT and other PoS currencies, because it's a ridiculous model. 

Short summary:
Each unit has a known, true value. 
Holders are willing to sell their coins at higher price than their real value.
An attacker has enough money to buy enough coins (using "true" valuation) to destroy the currency. 
Because he can do it, everyone sells his coins for nothing, because if he does buy the coins, anyone left holding will lose money. This causes the price to go to zero.
Therefore, it costs nothing to destroy any PoS currency. 

pure genius. let's sell nxt, everyone.

How can they assume that the price per unit (aka 1 NXT) will stay the same if someone is buying up a large quantity of them? The more the attacker buys, the more the price will increase (exponentially) because other people will see the price rising and want to buy too. No one is going to sell their coins for "0" just because someone on the internet claims they can buy out all of PoS instantly - which they cant anyways, because not all coins are for sell on the market at any given time. For comparison, I think only ~1-2% of Bitcoins are moved a day (volume): http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/. If someone bought up that 1%, Bitcoin price would be in the thousands, with more and more people willing to buy and sell higher and higher.

Also another scenario: If everyone knows this guy has the money to buy out a significant portion of the coins, wouldn't they just hold because they know he wants a certain amount and will pay whatever price to get it? Basic market forces here, if everyone knows there is huge demand, they are going to put their selling price higher and higher until the supply matches the demand.

Last bit: Is the author's use of "cost nothing" an exaggeration? Like I mentioned earlier, no one will believe someone who claims he can buy out any PoS currency until he actually does it. Therefore, it does cost something, and the attacker would have to be willing to part with $millions-$billions of his own money. And then there's the fact that NXT is 90% resistant, so he'd pretty much be giving all (90%) of the current stakeholders a incredibly large sum of money.

[jl777]

What is the feeling of everyone about integrating zerocoin into the NXT mainnet after testing?

Since we cant integrate C++ code into the NXT core, it would have to be put into the gateways and clients for peer validation. If we put NXTcash validation into NODEcoin also, we would get a large scale peer reviewed NXTcash. Essentially it would be a NXTcash blockchain on top of NXT that is enforced by NODEcoin. We might not have to store the large 30K proofs in the blockchain, not sure on this yet but there is a promising approach using gateway that could encapsulate the large proofs. I am hopeful that we will be able to submit to jean-luc and all Java set of mods to the NXT core that will support NXTcash. In March.

This technique could be expanded to add other blockchains that could be totally independent unto themselves, or be interwoven with NXT blockchain via gateway.

I used to think gateways were just boring deposit/withdrawal functionality. Now I am realizing that a gateway can be used to bridge the gap between a lot of things that are not NXT with NXT. By doing so, NXT gets effectively extended.

James

[msin]

I'm considering locking this thread on page 2100.  What are everyones' thoughts?

I don't want to interrupt communication, but I think we would make more progress if we were better organized.

Poll - https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=839

I didnt realize our progress was so slow...
I find it really convenient that everything NXT is here. If I have to keep going to many different places, there is a much larger chance that I will miss something.
Please dont kill this thread. Its cool. Its history.
All that would happen is that someone (me) will create a new thread, so it wont serve any purpose.

James

Locking this thread would be an absolutely terrible decision.  Aren't we all about the freedom to do what we want, why force people to a certain forum.  We are getting tons of stuff done here and other threads, leave it.