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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2755395 times)
salsacz
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March 14, 2014, 09:18:50 AM
 #44261

Cunicula owns 600.000 NXT, but we can consider them as lost, at least for near future. He said some smart opinions, like this:

Listen he is really excited about what he is doing and wants it to succeed. You think this guy is in it mostly for the money?
That's ridiculous. The people who are in it for the money allocate 90% of their time to PR and 10% of their time to development.
The fact that PR is not so effective here strongly suggests that money is not the main objective.
(Go look at bitshares or [to a much lesser extent] mastercoin for a comparison)

I just submitted one of his last papers before he left Bitcointalk and Reddit accounts:
http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/20e2rk/why_is_cpu_mining_a_very_bad_idea_cuniculas_game/

the paper ends:
Quote
Under this condition (where the miner has no sunkinvestment in the system), there is no way of sustaining the good equilibrium.Implication, restricting a coin to CPU mining is a very bad idea.Exercise for the reader: What does this exercise tell us about proof-of-stake?

in the Bitcoin discussion about this text he said how to deal with trolls:
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Eh, people who are really interested in substance are good at ignoring everything else.

Nxt tips: NXT-R67P-6BZ2-XWAK-8RHZR | Nxt forum | Nxt Academy | Donate for Nxt at the Universities // BTCD: RVMLrnxYYy7uy8YZo9FcGfXbk1ZMnNifdg
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March 14, 2014, 09:25:06 AM
Last edit: March 14, 2014, 09:35:11 AM by ChuckOne
 #44262

- lick us at facebooks and twitters and retweet us

LOL

U, guys, can't stop creating memes as I see. YUB, HODL and LICK!

Edit: Oh, I forgot about FOGRE...

You missed SODL.


These are the five elements of NXT.

There is a natural flow from FOGRE -> HODL -> SODL -> YUB -> LICK and back to FOGRE.

We call this the elementary cycle of NXT.
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March 14, 2014, 09:40:46 AM
Last edit: March 14, 2014, 09:58:50 AM by rickyjames
 #44263

I have no control over what goes into the NXT core.

It is not part of NXT core, it is just a NXT asset that I made

nodecoins are NOT part of NXT core. It is not part of NXT basic structure.
It is simply an asset I created using NXT core.
anybody can do this

I have spent some more time thinking about this and have one more post to say about nodecoins in a calm, non-confrontational manner.  No "this will destroy NXT" chest thumping here - just some core identity questions to think about.

It is true that nodecoins are just one more type of created asset and that it is not part of the NXT core code in Java and that soon anybody is going to be able to create their own coin and trade it on AE.

Where nodecoin becomes part of the fabric of NXT is if we as a community decides to offer it as an official ongoing reward to run a computer and support our network.

Once we do this, once we cross over this line, we can no longer call ourselves a pure Proof of Stake cryptocurrency.  

We will have changed the core definition of what NXT is if the NXT experience is expanded to include the awarding of nodecoin along with the forging of NXT.

Now, we are a very young cryptocurrency.  We have to build a brand if we are to survive.  Branding involves differentiating yourself from other brands; in our case, Bitcoin.  Good branding also has to be clear and distinct and simple to understand on a gut or subconscious level without having to do a lot of reasoning or logic to figure out what the difference is with a competing brand.

The best branding NXT has come up with so far is that it is green.  NXT uses far less electricity than PoW mining - megawatts less, and that's a hugely significant amount.  A simple way of communicating this "green idea" is "They're PoW and use lots of power; we're PoS so we don't have to".  Even at Texas Bitcoin Conference the Jane Sixpack who was sitting beside me in the panel got that idea when I expressed it and said it would resonate among the average public.  

Now I am afraid - I have fear without proof - that officially structuring our product to give out nodecoins as a created-out-of-thin air reward to our users will compromise our brand.  This SOUNDS like Proof of Work.   In fact it is not, since the person doing it hasn't done one single thing they would not have done if the reward was not given to them.  They have done no extra computations.  They have burned no extra electricity.  Really they have just given to NXT Proof of Existence or Proof of Participation.  It's like getting a Perfect Attendance award in elementary school - a piece of paper that makes you feel good for something you should do anyway.  

But now if we do this we take away significant differences between us and our competition.  Now NXT officially gives out "award coins" out of thin air, just like Bitcoin.   Now we WANT people to think the award coins have speculative value and will rise in value on our AE through speculation and trading, just like Bitcoin.  We have created a way for people to get-rich-quick on NXT, just like Bitcoin.  So - how are we different from Bitcoin?

And if we do this we also have to add caveats to our story we tell to brand ourselves.   NXT is green - but their Proof of Work coins are dirty and our Proof of Work coins are clean, because they have to burn megawatts of electricity and throw away literally 15 thousand million billion perfectly good cryptographic block candidates that don't have enough zeros on the front end to win a prize to get their next block and win extra prize coins, and we give our prize coins away at the next block for doing absolutely nothing extra at all.  It makes us sound as crazy as Bitcoin.  

Compare that to "They're PoW and use LOTS of power; we're PoS so we don't have to".

It's not nodecoins themselves I have a problem with.  The ability to create new coins on top of the NXT blockchain is a brilliant piece of work, James.  I can see where that is of interest to many people and will draw many people to NXT.  It's the rationale that NXT has to give nodecoins away to help "secure the network" or "pay for the network" that I question.  If people are creating their own coins and trading them on AE, won't they have their clients open and be supporting the NXT network during that time?   As we become more successful and add the other services such as streaming quotes and AE  candlestick charts and all the rest so AE looks more and more like an "official" exchange, isn't THIS going to keep people interested in keeping their clients open so they can follow the ever-growing action?   Won't THIS support and secure the network?

I would go so far to say that instead of giving out free nodecoins on AE, we should cut NXT transaction fees to zero on AE.  Won't THIS bring more people to AE - making it a TOTALLY FREE exchange with NO service fees or house cut AT ALL?  Now THAT'S branding.  THAT'S a product differentiator.  That will bring people to NXT in droves:  FREE FREE FREE.  And it costs us nothing - it's just another feature in the client software, and a choice we make as a community on how to operate our coin, and an approach that DOES NOT COMPROMISE OUR STATUS AS A PURE PROOF OF STAKE COIN.

James, don't be discouraged.  You have done a brilliant piece of work that will draw many people to NXT.  As you say, though, this tech is so revolutionary and so disruptive that it has the potential to disrupt NXT itself.  And something with that much power we have GOT to have open conversations about and decide if we want to do genetic engineering on ourselves and alter our very DNA and mutate into something new.  

I say let everybody in the world create 1000 new coins and trade them with wild, crazy abandon on AE - but not NXT itself.  In my opinion, NXT itself should not do this.  Do not create a "special" extra NXT coin, and certainly not one that is then GIVEN AWAY.  The casino runs the game, it doesn't play at the tables itself.  Let the action generated by everybody else's coins being traded cause clients to be open and the NXT network supported.  Don't try to generate this support by the emotional draw of a "free giveaway" that tries to pull people in by playing to their greed and raise in them hopes of get-rich-quick.

It's beyond cool keeping your eyes glued on your terminal, then seeing notifications pop up in wesley's client that you've just received nodecoins. It's fun. It's addictive. It's engaging. It pings that pleasure/reward center in the way a good game keeps you playing one more turn. It's brilliant (but I'm prone to hyperbole).

I'm buying nodecoins on the AE like I drunken sailor. I can't get enough of them. I'm using (test)NXT to buy them, btw.

Don't make NXT have a component that appeals to the problem gambler that lurks in all of us.  Especially me, my name is rickyjames and I am a poker addict...

Before we pull the trigger and decide as a community if free nodecoin giveaways will be part of our brand, we should ask and answer the following questions:

1. Will AE trading alone without nodecoin giveaways pull in enough interest to keep clients open and so generate network support?

2. Will free AE trading with NO NXT fees cause more interest than a nodecoin giveaway?

3. Is there even a need for nodecoin giveaways to support the network?  What is the status of the network, and what does it need in infrastructure and capital investment?

4. What is the expected moneyflow and cashflow amounts generated by a nodecoin giveaway that leads to cash payments of hallmarked nodes in a server farm?

We have time to think about and discuss all of this, and we need to.  Mixing in nodecoin giveaways as part of the NXT experience will change what we are, forever.  It is not a step to be taken lightly or just because we can.
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March 14, 2014, 09:42:57 AM
 #44264


It doesn't make sense to write what you call an ultralight client then.

Why would you not implement this yourself in a client and have a trustless solution?

THESE 2.  JLP, can you add an option to allow NRS to only process certain API requests from localhost?

Why? The prepareTransaction is good to get server side error handling (one shouldn't rely on client side error handling), when we get the response back, we can "unpack" it and see if it's the same as our input, if so, broadcast it out. You shouldn't disable this functionality.

Yes, if it's done like this it is ok from a security point of view.

On the other hand, looking at SendMoney.java for example, it's really just a check for enough funds. The rest of the checks in there is trivial and should be checked client-side anyway.

So I don't think prepareTransaction is worth the (asynchronous) hassle.
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March 14, 2014, 10:05:52 AM
 #44265

Nodecoins or not- I think that the principle issue that is behind most of the concerns on this thread in the past few days is the value and role of NXT as a 1.0 currency.

There seem to be two contradicting directions here that I'd like to try and point out. I think that without solving this as a community-(dont know how. voting? vision and strategy committee/foundation?)- this will continue to present an obstacle in the evolution of NXT.  

1) BCNext's model and vision is to have NXT function as a building block for a decentralized Internet on which a set of decentralized macro applications such as exchanges, messaging, storage email etc are built. we'll call this "decentralized cypto-platforms 2.0"

2) This model allows for decentralized units of exchange (Crypto-currencies) to built on top of the NXT blockchain and function as what we call "classic" bitcoin 1.0. or crypto currencies 1.0.

3) However, and that's the real underlying problem: many of us community members recognize, that by being a full 2.0 concept and by using NXT ONLY as a building block and NOT (Also, and as an inherent function) as a 1.0 currency, we will see its economic value diminish as there will be really no use for it aside from this great decentralized building block.


In other words- you cant have it both ways: if the value of 1NXT is high than the network is not cheap to run and loses lost of its value to users. and if the network is almost free because of the innovation it entails- than the value of 1NXT cant be high.

4) James and others (and I say this with respect even-though I disagree personally) on the other hand believe that the overall value of transactions within the NXT ecosystem will drive the value of a single NXT and the overall market cap even if NXT itself is no longer a currency. One other person in this thread called it the gold, the basic store of value etc.

5) I believe that this, or aspects of this are the real problem and a contradiction

If this was a centralized company (like ripple or google) than I would be very happy to become a decentralized Sysco (infrastructure) or Google (implementation) and enjoy my price per share (the parallel to my price per NXT) go through the roof. However, in a decentralized setting- this is not the same thing. The NXT building blocks per se are not worth anything if not ALSO functioning as a unit of exchange either within the NXT ecosystem or as a combination of ecosystem and real world transactions (BTC in overstock or Virgin for example)

Since this is NOT a share or a financial asset (if primarily a building block as BCNEXT and friends want it) it will have no real monetary value. it will only have monetary value if used as the oil within the NXT ecosystem (this is what Etherium are doing with their ETHER), i.e. that you need to have some to create anything + to transact + to pay dividends etc. NOT just a building block  

6) I think that a compromise and solution should be to somehow separate the two entities by definition. no sure how. one possible solution that can have both (great by the way) visions is to continue with BCNEXT's 2.0 decentralized Internet vision via the NXT protocol WHILE not abandoning the 1.0 aspect by establishing a cryptocurrency ---to be called a "NXTcoin" currency to be functioning on top of NXT the protocol. All current NXT holders will become owners of the same amount of NXTcoins while "old NXT" remains the building block and than we have both.

but having the same token as both the building block for fully decentralized and almost free platforms and as a coin with a BTC like value is a contradiction economically and in reality. the only way is to make this NXT coin an oil to the machine hence NOT for the functioning of the PoS network per se (for that maybe the NODECOIN is a good solution)

comments appreciated- even if I am not accurate on some of the details I am interested if you agree on the principle problem. Understanding a problem is half the path for a solution
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March 14, 2014, 10:06:07 AM
 #44266

[Some valid points.. ]


Nxt is still green as you can even run it on a RasPi running with solar power only. If you have a computer network, you will need electricity. Nodecoin is just a gift, that was created by one of the community members to give it to the people participating in the Nxt network. The amount of Nodecoin you get doesn´t depend on the forging rig you are using. I don´t think that makes Nxt "less green".
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March 14, 2014, 10:12:11 AM
 #44267

[Some valid points.. ]


Nxt is still green as you can even run it on a RasPi running with solar power only. If you have a computer network, you will need electricity. Nodecoin is just a gift, that was created by one of the community members to give it to the people participating in the Nxt network. The amount of Nodecoin you get doesn´t depend on the forging rig you are using. I don´t think that makes Nxt "less green".

There's three possibilities and only three possibilities.  

1. Nobody gets this gift for participating
2. Some people don't get this gift even though they did participate
3. Everybody gets the same gift

We as a community are doing something useless that is a waste of time if we do 3.  
We as a community are doing something "unfair" if we do 2.  
That's why I vote 1.
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March 14, 2014, 10:13:51 AM
 #44268

[Some valid points.. ]


Nxt is still green as you can even run it on a RasPi running with solar power only. If you have a computer network, you will need electricity. Nodecoin is just a gift, that was created by one of the community members to give it to the people participating in the Nxt network. The amount of Nodecoin you get doesn´t depend on the forging rig you are using. I don´t think that makes Nxt "less green".

+1
Same opinion, only ends with lazy people which have the computer turned on but don't open nxt client, by this way thay will have an incentive "supposing they don't realice that keep the nxt network save protect they're own inversion" it's something psychological and for getting a more tangible reward
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March 14, 2014, 10:14:31 AM
Last edit: March 14, 2014, 10:32:28 AM by igmaca
 #44269


Once we do this, once we cross over this line, we can no longer call ourselves a pure Proof of Stake cryptocurrency.  

It's the rationale that NXT has to give nodecoins away to help "secure the network" or "pay for the network" that I question.  

these are questions for which it would be nice to have clear and concise answers:

1) why is the forging mechanism insufficient for protecting the nxt network?

currently there are not decentralization

Quote
...
the transaction fees are still too damn high, forging rewards are way to low & come too slow for all but the richest Nxters.
...
In my opinion, you're better off dishing out smaller rewards at a faster pace. People are like lab rats who feel rewarded when they get a pellet. It would be better to get .001 NXT every couple of days than 10 NXT after many months. It is simple psychology. Almost every successful software "invention" these days is successful because it's addicting. Twitter, facebook, Angry Birds, Flappy Birds, Candy Crush, Farmville. All very successful and all very addicting. Give the people their pellets and they will be addicted and they will forge.



2) what behavior does the nodecoin encourage? is it possible to encourage this behavior through a modification of the forging mechanism?

yes with share fee group. is very simple to implement only have to be desire to change the process of assignment of forging fees.

I don't get your idea, or I get it. I don't know.
Instead of leasing forge power, you commit with your account to share fees among others in the same "share fee group" if you forge a node. You still try to forge a block on your own, but you commit to share the incentive with others if you are successful (with special conditions like committing to run the node for some time, ...). Could this be done with AT and would that make sense?

I really like this idea because your node still has to be online to be part of the shared group.
It retains the decentralisation and number of nodes.

Forging is a bit like bingo/lottery anyway rather than mining and it smooths out the impact of penalty and people pool hopping if the pool was based on a single node...
So generally in stead of buying a single big ticket you are offering to share your ticket and any winnings with lots of others and vice versa
Penalties would only affect the nodes in the shared pool an would not take huge chunks of NXT out of the forging balance in one go by taking a whole pool out.

currently there are very few transactions and nxt prices are low and therefore the fees for forging (1 nxt) are unattractive
so I think that node coin could short term until the number of transactions does not increase a very good solution

3) who will pay for nodecoins once they are mined? why will they pay for nodecoins?

lease active nodes for several services. (I think I understand)

4) the answer to #3 above, should also help to answer this question: does the existence of nodecoins dilute the value of 1 nxt?

i propose to mantein forging fees with share fee group and using nxt coins
and i propose lease active nodes using node coin

in the future if the transactions goes up forging fees will be more interesting to ensure the network

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March 14, 2014, 10:14:59 AM
 #44270


- lick us at facebooks and twitters and retweet us
Grin

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March 14, 2014, 10:21:00 AM
 #44271

[Some valid points.. ]


Nxt is still green as you can even run it on a RasPi running with solar power only. If you have a computer network, you will need electricity. Nodecoin is just a gift, that was created by one of the community members to give it to the people participating in the Nxt network. The amount of Nodecoin you get doesn´t depend on the forging rig you are using. I don´t think that makes Nxt "less green".

There's three possibilities and only three possibilities.  

1. Nobody gets this gift for participating
2. Some people don't get this gift even though they did participate
3. Everybody gets the same gift

We as a community are doing something useless that is a waste of time if we do 3.  
We as a community are doing something "unfair" if we do 2.  
That's why I vote 1.

We reward only the people who are supporting the network.
It is already there, why don´t use it?

And it is actually James´ decision as he created the asset. If it will be worth $0 nobody will care about it. If it will be worth something, Nxt will benefit from it.
I think we should let the market decide.
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March 14, 2014, 10:25:54 AM
 #44272

And it is actually James´ decision as he created the asset. If it will be worth $0 nobody will care about it. If it will be worth something, Nxt will benefit from it.
I think we should let the market decide.

I fully agree. It's the purpose of NXT to enable people to build services on top of it.

They do it on their own. It has nothing else to do with NXT except that NXT is one of their buliding blocks.

Period.
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March 14, 2014, 10:29:43 AM
 #44273


- lick us at facebooks and twitters and retweet us
Grin


Member of the Nxt Foundation | Donations: NXT-D6K7-MLY6-98FM-FLL5T
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March 14, 2014, 10:31:33 AM
 #44274

And it is actually James´ decision as he created the asset. If it will be worth $0 nobody will care about it. If it will be worth something, Nxt will benefit from it.
I think we should let the market decide.

I fully agree. It's the purpose of NXT to enable people to build services on top of it.

They do it on their own. It has nothing else to do with NXT except that NXT is their buliding block.

Period.

We had 5 months to deliver something, that makes Nxt unique. We had the benefit of being first. If we failed to take this advantage, then let it be. If something built ON TOP of Nxt can destroy it, than it is not the system that the world needs.

The forks of Bitcoin have nothing to do with Bitcoin itself, they are just copies/forks, but Bitcoin managed to stay alive and be the Nr1 cryptocurrency. Now we will have coins built ON TOP of Nxt, which has a stong correlation and connection to Nxt, unlike Bitcoin and his other alts. If this kills Nxt, then let it be.
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March 14, 2014, 10:33:48 AM
 #44275

"They're PoW and use LOTS of power; we're PoS so we don't have to".

This still stands.

AE users don't run nodes by having their clients unlocked.
Rewarding (and compensating) Nxters who run nodes for securing the network, seems fair to me.

I also have nothing against the gamification element.
Yeeeeeah, it's fun to see Nodecoins being generated. But "gambling"? How? You don't play.
It's like fearing that folks should get addicted to watching a spinning washing machine. Most people don't. Wink

AE is far more dangerous in that aspect than a (green) reward system, called Nodecoin. NodePoints. Is that better?



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March 14, 2014, 10:35:59 AM
 #44276


Hey guys!

Gamblex has added NXT to our exchange and our gambling site. It will be fully implemented, that means we will also sell shares that distribute a part of the NXT fee revenue to stakeholders.

Check out our thread and maybe Invest!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=498311.msg5676745#msg5676745

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March 14, 2014, 10:39:31 AM
 #44277

Apropos gambling  Grin

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March 14, 2014, 10:43:56 AM
 #44278

"They're PoW and use LOTS of power; we're PoS so we don't have to".

This still stands.

AE users don't run nodes by having their clients unlocked.
Rewarding (and compensating) Nxters who run nodes for securing the network, seems fair to me.

I also have nothing against the gamification element.
Yeeeeeah, it's fun to see Nodecoins being generated. But "gambling"? How? You don't play.

AE is far more dangerous in that aspect than a (green) reward system, called Nodecoin. NodePoints. Is that better?


I think there is a generational thing here and I am on the old end of the stick.  I never spent any time playing a video game watching a point counter go up and up and up to happy little sounds, I wasted my time watching people go for huge piles of money on The Sopranos, The Shield and Breaking Bad.  I want huge piles of money.  I want 1 NXT = $1000.  I don't see how giving out free coins makes that happen.  Of course, I don't understand how Farmville or Candy Crush or Twitter makes money either.  Oh wait, they don't.

NXT is an ecosystem and lots of things find their niche in a true ecosystem.   Good luck, James.
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March 14, 2014, 10:44:35 AM
 #44279

Where nodecoin becomes part of the fabric of NXT is if we as a community decides to offer it as an official ongoing reward to run a computer and support our network.

Once we do this, once we cross over this line, we can no longer call ourselves a pure Proof of Stake cryptocurrency.

Quote
The best branding NXT has come up with so far is that it is green.  NXT uses far less electricity than PoW mining - megawatts less, and that's a hugely significant amount.  A simple way of communicating this "green idea" is "They're PoW and use lots of power; we're PoS so we don't have to".  Even at Texas Bitcoin Conference the Jane Sixpack who was sitting beside me in the panel got that idea when I expressed it and said it would resonate among the average public.  

Quote
James, don't be discouraged.  You have done a brilliant piece of work that will draw many people to NXT.  As you say, though, this tech is so revolutionary and so disruptive that it has the potential to disrupt NXT itself.  And something with that much power we have GOT to have open conversations about and decide if we want to do genetic engineering on ourselves and alter our very DNA and mutate into something new.  

+1

And it is actually James´ decision as he created the asset. If it will be worth $0 nobody will care about it. If it will be worth something, Nxt will benefit from it.
I think we should let the market decide.

I fully agree. It's the purpose of NXT to enable people to build services on top of it.

They do it on their own. It has nothing else to do with NXT except that NXT is one of their buliding blocks.

Period.

Please see above.

I vote for fundamental research (what James is doing right now with nodecoin) but don't mix it up with our Nxt branding. Not yet.
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March 14, 2014, 10:47:39 AM
 #44280

Hey James,

I really like the Idea of Nodecoins. Please don't let it die! If you need donations or something let me know, I can pitch some to you.
If someone doesn't like the idea of nodecoins, he can just refuse to use them. I see no way of how that layer can hurt us.

Thank you,
Paul!

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