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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2755205 times)
opticalcarrier
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March 13, 2014, 09:20:06 PM
 #44081

What about a TF coin?

It will be awarded to all the nodes that publish their IP address that enables transparent forging. Based on the nodecoin discussion, I am convinced this will kill TF. After all, anything that reinforces a certain behavior is sure to do the exact opposite.

James

Edit: Too late, I just issued TFcoin. TF is doomed!

can you issue an emulecoin while youre at it?
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March 13, 2014, 09:22:11 PM
 #44082

Can anyone tell me why I get nodecoin even though I'm not running the nodecoin script?
Because the nodeminers that are running have detected that you are actually running a NXT node. In their supreme evilness, they then report to central "destroy NXT" headquarters that you must be rewarded for doing so. This will then make you immediately stop running a NXT node, thus destroying all of NXT.

muhwahwahwahwa

James

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grandpa_seth
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March 13, 2014, 09:22:59 PM
 #44083

I'm not saying I know the answer to this as I have just thought of this this second. But if bitcoin from the beginning gave miners bitcoins AND "minecoins". What would bitcoin's value look
like today?
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March 13, 2014, 09:23:24 PM
Last edit: March 13, 2014, 09:37:45 PM by wakasaki808
 #44084

I don't get why we can't build coins on top of NXT (ala Nodecoin, etc.). I don't think it would make NXT less valuable because these coins built on NXT require NXT to be stable. If of course we want these these Nodecoin-like crypto's to replace the Bitcoin-clones.

Even though Nodecoin is in essense POW imo. NXT will grow if cryptos make NXT the platform to grow on.

For example, if 100 Nodecoin-like crypto's are built on top of NXT as a result of NXT being more secure compared to Bitcoin, unless of course "Nodecoin"(s) make it more likely to have an effect like a 51% attack for NXT, then from my view the NXT system will become more valuable because NXT will be their backbone.

Maybe my thinking is wrong...idk Tongue


also...can any other crypto do something like 'nodecoin'?  Huh
jl777
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March 13, 2014, 09:24:02 PM
 #44085

nodecoin is a response to the need for people to get regular and predictable feedback for running a NXT node. It satisfies this requirement. As to what all the other side effects it creates, I am just a simple C programmer and when you start extrapolating things like the behaviors of large groups of people, well, I admit I cannot predict. AUR proves this.

Also, notice that if trying to boost the NXT network via nodecoin purchases doesnt work, what have we lost? Without nodecoin, there wouldnt even be that option. nodecoin price fluctuations do not impact NXT. nodecoin is not NXT. nodecoin is a NXT asset. If NXT relies on nodecoin for all of its network infrastructure incentive and nodecoin fails, then where are we? I think we would be where we are now, without nodecoin.

James

There's a saying that when you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that you originally intended to drain the swamp.   That's what we've got here.  

The original problem is that everybody eventually comes to the realization that forging NXT isn't getting them rich like they expected Bitcoin mining would do, in fact, if they've got under 2000 NXT, they probably won't even mine a single block in a year (if all NXT owners had their client open and were forging too).   This is a disappointment and demotivator to them, and understandably so.  But hey, that what PoS as implemented by NXT is.  Everybody gets the same ROI / interest rate on their stake, and if you ain't got much stake, your equal share of the pie is gonna be really, really small.  

The original BCNext (and I believe correct) solution to the problem is to realize that NXT doesn't need super expensive computers to keep the node network going, that people will keep their clients open and bear the minimal expense as an altruistic item on their part, that instead of profit motive to run NXT we have community spirit.

Some people feel that a bigger motive / incentive is needed.  This is very noble and I am not cutting them down.  But I come back to my previously stated BCNext's First Law - For every attempt to create a new incentive in the zero-sum NXT system, an equal and opposite disincentive is created somewhere else in that system.  

Money in NXT is not created out of thin air every few minutes like it is in BCT.  There is only so much and if it goes into one person's pocket, it came out of somebody else's pocket.

So here's the bottom line question.  If nodecoin is created as a new source of value to motivate people to support the NXT network, WHOSE POCKET DID THIS VALUE COME FROM IN THE FORM OF NXT?
It comes from the pockets of people who speculate in nodecoin. It is their BTC converted to NXT that they will be spending to support nodecoin, which supports NXT nodes.

It is not a zerosum situation at all, when external money flows in and buys NXT to buy nodecoins

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
farl4web
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March 13, 2014, 09:26:02 PM
 #44086

James is a beast with great ideas and implementation. But our opinions are not trolling. If you like nodecoin please explain to me why its good for Nxt. I'd love to change my mind if it is.

James is one of the few here actively developing his ideas.  I support people who produce.

The goal of nodecoin is to offer a simple reward for running a node and supporting the network.  As issuer, James is free to issue the asset as he sees fit.  As with any asset in AE, there is no intrinsic value.  Only time will tell if nodecoins will have any real market value...  if there is no market, then it becomes one of (possibly) hundreds of worthless assets listed in AE.  

nodecoin is an experiment, and will live or die (as any other asset) on its own with no harm to NXT.

+ 1

Now we have no rewards for the guys running nodes, then we have nodecoin, don't worry about it. If it worth nothing in the end, no harm is done. Love the ideas of James. We need to get a lot of nodes out there and Peerexplorer is not always filled with enough cashes.

It pollutes and confuses the brand and user experience.
Pffff  Lips sealed

The average crypto enthusiast don't run nodes or understand this, why would it hurt the brand? Maybe it even attracts miner 2.0 because they can finally mine on the Nxt network. Who knows, just let it happen, that's were AE is made for!  Smiley

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jl777
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March 13, 2014, 09:27:57 PM
 #44087

James is a beast with great ideas and implementation. But our opinions are not trolling. If you like nodecoin please explain to me why its good for Nxt. I'd love to change my mind if it is.

James is one of the few here actively developing his ideas.  I support people who produce.

The goal of nodecoin is to offer a simple reward for running a node and supporting the network.  As issuer, James is free to issue the asset as he sees fit.  As with any asset in AE, there is no intrinsic value.  Only time will tell if nodecoins will have any real market value...  if there is no market, then it becomes one of (possibly) hundreds of worthless assets listed in AE.  

nodecoin is an experiment, and will live or die (as any other asset) on its own with no harm to NXT.

+ 1

Now we have no rewards for the guys running nodes, then we have nodecoin, don't worry about it. If it worth nothing in the end, no harm is done. Love the ideas of James. We need to get a lot of nodes out there and Peerexplorer is not always filled with enough cashes.

It pollutes and confuses the brand and user experience.
I forgot about the marketing aspects. Maybe some marketing guys who understand human behavior a bit would like to comment on whether NXT becomes more or less attractive, if they automatically get bonus coins just for running NXT. Do people prefer to get free stuff or do they hate it?

Does this confuse or enhance what NXT is? Does it improve or degrade the user experience?

James

Edit: I could just see the big problem this creates. What if everyone that installs NXT started getting dozens of free coins that they could sell in AE? It would be like a multifaceted faucet if people could select what free coins they wanted and which ones they didnt want.

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
Jean-Luc
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March 13, 2014, 09:30:22 PM
 #44088

I should have local (trustless) signing online tomorrow (no password sent to the server). A big thank you to CFB, Antonios, BloodyRookie and Jaguar0625 for all their help with this Smiley
I want to make sure people understand that it is not "trustless" signing. Unfortunately, the way we are doing it, you still have to trust the server. You don't send the password to the server, but you sign an array of bytes that the server sent to you. How do you know that this array really represents the transaction you intended to sign? To be sure, the client would need to parse and verify it, so the client needs to know exactly how each transaction type should be represented as a byte array. This is not a secret, it is in the source code, but if you need to implement this logic on the client side, you might as well construct the byte array yourself, and not trust the server to do it for you correctly. So by letting the client be simple and lazy and let the server construct the byte array, you necessarily have to trust the server. Furthermore, you have to trust that the server response you received has not been modified in transit - and the issue of using SSL to talk to the server becomes important again.



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grandpa_seth
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March 13, 2014, 09:31:26 PM
 #44089

I forgot about the marketing aspects. Maybe some marketing guys who understand human behavior a bit would like to comment on whether NXT becomes more or less attractive, if they automatically get bonus coins just for running NXT. Do people prefer to get free stuff or do they hate it?

Does this confuse or enhance what NXT is? Does it improve or degrade the user experience?

James

Economists and marketers please chime in
antanst
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March 13, 2014, 09:33:48 PM
 #44090

A big thank you to CFB, Antonios antanst, BloodyRookie and Jaguar0625 for all their help with this Smiley

Fixed it for you :-) Keep up the excellent work with the client.

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March 13, 2014, 09:36:16 PM
 #44091

I support Nodecoin and jl777 !

+1, you guys need to take a step back for a second, nodecoin will have a positive effect on Nxt.  It encourages people to run a node, why is that bad?  It's a utility coin and it had the potential to bring a couple thousand new users to Nxt, which is great.  It's an accomplishment that James was able to create a mine-able coin in AE, that is awesome.  I think many people are greatly overestimating the effect it will have on Nxt.  To get anything done with Nxt core, you will need to spend Nxt, so people aren't going to circumvent the Nxt core with nodecoin.  

I still think charging nodecoin for services like DAC is a great idea.  Anyone using DAC will still be spending Nxt in the end.  It gives people incentive to run a node, which is incredibly simple, and they will feel like they are accomplishing something and "part of the Nxt club".  It's more of a novelty, but would be cool to make people run a client for a while in order to use DAC, or NxtCash. To say it's bad for Nxt just doesn't make any sense to me.   If it doesn't work out and no one mines it or uses it, so what, at least we know how to create a mine-able coin in AE.
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March 13, 2014, 09:37:22 PM
 #44092

I have an idea!

If nodecoin is so bad for NXT, then I will create the antinodecoin. yes, this coins will reward only the accounts that are never active. Accounts that never help the NXT network. Those are the accounts that will get the antinodecoins

We need something to battle the evil nodecoin and the coin anti-earned by people who never use NXT is clearly the answer.

Just think of all those antinodecoins silently accumulating toward the nodecoin armageddon. Sparks will fly, prices will go up and down. NXT will be vaporized. NXT will reappear. Mass confusion and chaos.

I will also release globalwarming coins and globalcooling coins. If the days temperature is higher than the historical average, everybody gets globalwarming coins. If it is cooler, people get globalcooling coins.

James



ROFLMAO  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

This is your best idea EVER, James!!!!  Grin

rickyjames
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March 13, 2014, 09:39:00 PM
 #44093

nodecoin is a response to the need for people to get regular and predictable feedback for running a NXT node. It satisfies this requirement. As to what all the other side effects it creates, I am just a simple C programmer and when you start extrapolating things like the behaviors of large groups of people, well, I admit I cannot predict. AUR proves this.

Also, notice that if trying to boost the NXT network via nodecoin purchases doesnt work, what have we lost? Without nodecoin, there wouldnt even be that option. nodecoin price fluctuations do not impact NXT. nodecoin is not NXT. nodecoin is a NXT asset. If NXT relies on nodecoin for all of its network infrastructure incentive and nodecoin fails, then where are we? I think we would be where we are now, without nodecoin.

James

There's a saying that when you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that you originally intended to drain the swamp.   That's what we've got here.  

The original problem is that everybody eventually comes to the realization that forging NXT isn't getting them rich like they expected Bitcoin mining would do, in fact, if they've got under 2000 NXT, they probably won't even mine a single block in a year (if all NXT owners had their client open and were forging too).   This is a disappointment and demotivator to them, and understandably so.  But hey, that what PoS as implemented by NXT is.  Everybody gets the same ROI / interest rate on their stake, and if you ain't got much stake, your equal share of the pie is gonna be really, really small.  

The original BCNext (and I believe correct) solution to the problem is to realize that NXT doesn't need super expensive computers to keep the node network going, that people will keep their clients open and bear the minimal expense as an altruistic item on their part, that instead of profit motive to run NXT we have community spirit.

Some people feel that a bigger motive / incentive is needed.  This is very noble and I am not cutting them down.  But I come back to my previously stated BCNext's First Law - For every attempt to create a new incentive in the zero-sum NXT system, an equal and opposite disincentive is created somewhere else in that system.  

Money in NXT is not created out of thin air every few minutes like it is in BCT.  There is only so much and if it goes into one person's pocket, it came out of somebody else's pocket.

So here's the bottom line question.  If nodecoin is created as a new source of value to motivate people to support the NXT network, WHOSE POCKET DID THIS VALUE COME FROM IN THE FORM OF NXT?
It comes from the pockets of people who speculate in nodecoin. It is their BTC converted to NXT that they will be spending to support nodecoin, which supports NXT nodes.

It is not a zerosum situation at all, when external money flows in and buys NXT to buy nodecoins

My big concern is that people will come to see speculation in nodecoin to be more important to them than the value of NXT itself.   If this happens, we are screwed.  At that point NXT is just the fee required to access  AE and make vast fortunes running up the price of nodecoin they buy directly with BTC.  It is now in the speculator's interest to have/drive the exchange fee (NXT itself) as low as possible.  What is the motivator in this scenario to have my big stake in NXT retain a high value instead of being driven down to a low value?
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March 13, 2014, 09:40:17 PM
 #44094

I forgot about the marketing aspects. Maybe some marketing guys who understand human behavior a bit would like to comment on whether NXT becomes more or less attractive, if they automatically get bonus coins just for running NXT. Do people prefer to get free stuff or do they hate it?

Does this confuse or enhance what NXT is? Does it improve or degrade the user experience?

James

Economists and marketers please chime in

I can make NodeCoin look good or bad, take your pick  Grin

Seriously, it depends on who you want to attract.
NodeCoin is, as I see it, made to do what people know from mining.
We already know that the mining model "works" to incentivise people.
What we don't know, if NodeCoin does this, too, but as far as I can see, it creates the same "buzz".

As far as I can see, it would work, for now. I, and I expect no one else, can really not predict what the repercussions in the future are or what effect it will have for Nxt in general.

As I said, though, I don't think NodeCoin is the issue at stake here at all Smiley


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March 13, 2014, 09:41:06 PM
 #44095

All that nodecoin brings to Nxt,wont be naturally done by every other PoW coin people run on top of Nxt too???Why give nodecoins so much weight and link them to Nxt structure so much??
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March 13, 2014, 09:42:04 PM
 #44096

Can anyone tell me why I get nodecoin even though I'm not running the nodecoin script?

Because skyNXT is self aware and knows how important your work is to its ultimate domination....

Seriously James started out with an idea to reward people running nodes so that they did not just rely on forging.
Nodecoin has been around a number of weeks as a result and valuable time has been spent on it...

All I see in the thread is downside and negativity, ok nodecoin is not perfect, but its not cancer, and if it is - lets hear the alternative?

Do we still need to reward people who run nodes?

Are we waiting for BCNext or his 12 or is it 21 disciples and the super nodes they will deploy to forge on and earn all the transaction fees from everyone else's handwork?


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grandpa_seth
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March 13, 2014, 09:43:32 PM
 #44097

I support Nodecoin and jl777 !

+1, you guys need to take a step back for a second, nodecoin will have a positive effect on Nxt.  It encourages people to run a node, why is that bad?  It's a utility coin and it had the potential to bring a couple thousand new users to Nxt, which is great.  It's an accomplishment that James was able to create a mine-able coin in AE, that is awesome.  I think many people are greatly overestimating the effect it will have on Nxt.  To get anything done with Nxt core, you will need to spend Nxt, so people aren't going to circumvent the Nxt core with nodecoin.  

I still think charging nodecoin for services like DAC is a great idea.  Anyone using DAC will still be spending Nxt in the end.  It gives people incentive to run a node, which is incredibly simple, and they will feel like they are accomplishing something and "part of the Nxt club".  It's more of a novelty, but would be cool to make people run a client for a while in order to use DAC, or NxtCash. To say it's bad for Nxt just doesn't make any sense to me.   If it doesn't work out and no one mines it or uses it, so what, at least we know how to create a mine-able coin in AE.

So then why has my original suggestion been ignored about having nodecoins be redeemable for Nxt like a points/airline miles program? That way nobody disputes that the value
nodecoins have is in that it can increase my Nxt stake. The only problem I see is how to donate this fund and whether one of the committees will fund this. Any funding for this
will only be temporary because I can't imagine it would take more than a year for Nxt to be successful enough to not need nodecoins for incentive to forge.
opticalcarrier
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March 13, 2014, 09:46:30 PM
 #44098

I should have local (trustless) signing online tomorrow (no password sent to the server). A big thank you to CFB, Antonios, BloodyRookie and Jaguar0625 for all their help with this Smiley
I want to make sure people understand that it is not "trustless" signing. Unfortunately, the way we are doing it, you still have to trust the server. You don't send the password to the server, but you sign an array of bytes that the server sent to you. How do you know that this array really represents the transaction you intended to sign? To be sure, the client would need to parse and verify it, so the client needs to know exactly how each transaction type should be represented as a byte array. This is not a secret, it is in the source code, but if you need to implement this logic on the client side, you might as well construct the byte array yourself, and not trust the server to do it for you correctly. So by letting the client be simple and lazy and let the server construct the byte array, you necessarily have to trust the server. Furthermore, you have to trust that the server response you received has not been modified in transit - and the issue of using SSL to talk to the server becomes important again.




Wait... is it possible for a client to sent a transaction request to a VPS and the VPS to determine client balance and use that as the amount and change the destination account to his own account, and , then wrap all that up in bytes for the client to sign and submit to the network?  if so this is a BAD idea, regardless of if you have legit SSL certs or not.

ETA:  I mean its a BAD idea to develop this "ultralight" client, if what I say is true.  Then a "light" client which does all the work itself and just broadcasts the signed transaction to the network is the only way to go
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March 13, 2014, 09:46:55 PM
 #44099


My big concern is that people will come to see speculation in nodecoin to be more important to them than the value of NXT itself.   If this happens, we are screwed.  At that point NXT is just the fee required to access  AE and make vast fortunes running up the price of nodecoin they buy directly with BTC.  It is now in the speculator's interest to have/drive the exchange fee (NXT itself) as low as possible.  What is the motivator in this scenario to have my big stake in NXT retain a high value instead of being driven down to a low value?

rickyjames, how would speculators drive the price of nxt down in this scenario? Wouldn't supply (finite and fixed) and demand (increasing) cause the price to go up?
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March 13, 2014, 09:49:22 PM
 #44100

Can anyone tell me why I get nodecoin even though I'm not running the nodecoin script?

Because skyNXT is self aware and knows how important your work is to its ultimate domination....

Seriously James started out with an idea to reward people running nodes so that they did not just rely on forging.

All I see in the thread is downside and negativity, ok nodecoin is not perfect, but its not cancer, and if it is - lets hear the alternative?

Do we still need to reward people who run nodes?

Are we waiting for BCNext or his 12 or is it 21 disciples and the super nodes they will deploy to forge on and earn all the transaction fees from everyone else's handwork?

The alternative is to get the price of running a node so cheap that nobody needs a reward to do it.   What we are doing here is creating a pseudo-POW to make up for perceived weaknesses in PoS.  If PoS is strong enough to stand on its own, then let it.  If we try to go pseudo-PoW to be a motivator, then REAL PoW will ALWAYS be a better alternative and who needs NXT?
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