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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2755827 times)
Come-from-Beyond
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March 13, 2014, 10:13:57 PM
 #44121

I should have local (trustless) signing online tomorrow (no password sent to the server). A big thank you to CFB, Antonios, BloodyRookie and Jaguar0625 for all their help with this Smiley
I want to make sure people understand that it is not "trustless" signing. Unfortunately, the way we are doing it, you still have to trust the server. You don't send the password to the server, but you sign an array of bytes that the server sent to you. How do you know that this array really represents the transaction you intended to sign? To be sure, the client would need to parse and verify it, so the client needs to know exactly how each transaction type should be represented as a byte array. This is not a secret, it is in the source code, but if you need to implement this logic on the client side, you might as well construct the byte array yourself, and not trust the server to do it for you correctly. So by letting the client be simple and lazy and let the server construct the byte array, you necessarily have to trust the server. Furthermore, you have to trust that the server response you received has not been modified in transit - and the issue of using SSL to talk to the server becomes important again.

Very good point. I completely overlooked that server can return malicious transaction bytes.
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March 13, 2014, 10:15:05 PM
 #44122

Pls someone answer.  If in some time,we had lots of nodes supporting the network,could we just get rid of nodecoins??Or would they be part of Nxt in their most basic structure???
Once issued, nodecoins will exist for 27 years as they are given out 100 per block.
nodecoins are NOT part of NXT core. It is not part of NXT basic structure.
It is simply an asset I created using NXT core.
anybody can do this

Clearly NXT is a very disruptive tech. It can disrupt itself!

There are literally more than 47 to the 10th power of potential assets that can be created. That a lot of assets. nodecoin is just one asset.

Still think nodecoin does not add value to NXT? Just the discussion it has created has now gotten a bunch of people thinking about how they can create their own coin and issue it on AE. Dont deny it, I know you are. I charge 2% of coins as they are mined, if you need my help.

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
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March 13, 2014, 10:15:49 PM
 #44123

Good job Jean-Luc for implementing client side transaction signing and confirming the need for SSL between client and server for security!

I've missed that. Could you point me to where he said that?

its due to the use of an "ultralight" client versus a "light" client.  The API that JLP has just completed allows for an "ultralight" client to submit  transactions to a node, where the node prepares the transaction and gives bytes for the ultralight client to sign.  So if clients implement this "ultralight" functionality, then not only is SSL a must, but then these ultralight clients must implicitly trust that the VPS operators wont screw them over and steal their NXT.  As a VPS operator, this worries me.  What if the VPSs I run get hacked?  Then I'll get blamed.

Contrast a "light" client that figures everything out on its own, but since doesnt maintain a blockchain, it submits the completed signed transaction to a VPS where SSL then is not that huge of a deal.
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March 13, 2014, 10:16:29 PM
 #44124


grandpa_seth
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March 13, 2014, 10:17:34 PM
 #44125


It is a temporary solution I see nodecoin as. James made it to solve our forging problem that has been discussed a million times. Nodecoins would definitely solve short term
forging issues until we have thousands of businesses supporting the network for their own sakes. But nodecoin must be traded in for a fixed amount of Nxt like a points system.
James of course should be rewarded well by one of the committees if this is approved

OK, there's 525,600 minutes in a year.  Say everybody gets 5 nodecoins per block.  That's 2.6 million node coins per year.  If their value under a "points" system is 0.01 NXT (completely arbitrary, who knows what the market price would be), that's the same as creating a new stash of 26,000 NXT per year - that's an inflation rate of 0.0000026%.  At the current nickel per NXT, that's $1300 per year raised for servers.  If NXT goes up by a factor of 10, that's $13K per year.

Let me just say, if NXT goes up by a factor of 10, there are PLENTY of stakeholders here (me included) that would pay a voluntary "donation" / tax of 0.0000026% to support the computer network that made it happen.

this is my point. This to me is an infrastructure committee bounty. And again James should be compensated well if we can implement this. Again this is temporary. Nxt needs to

pay for this support because it is an infant.
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March 13, 2014, 10:19:05 PM
 #44126

Pls someone answer.  If in some time,we had lots of nodes supporting the network,could we just get rid of nodecoins??Or would they be part of Nxt in their most basic structure???
Once issued, nodecoins will exist for 27 years as they are given out 100 per block.
nodecoins are NOT part of NXT core. It is not part of NXT basic structure.
It is simply an asset I created using NXT core.
anybody can do this

Clearly NXT is a very disruptive tech. It can disrupt itself!

There are literally more than 47 to the 10th power of potential assets that can be created. That a lot of assets. nodecoin is just one asset.

Still think nodecoin does not add value to NXT? Just the discussion it has created has now gotten a bunch of people thinking about how they can create their own coin and issue it on AE. Dont deny it, I know you are. I charge 2% of coins as they are mined, if you need my help.

James

Jesus.  We will have our own little coin market cap war inside NXT.  It's a recursive fight to the death.  I thought AE would just be a way to trade coins peer-to-peer and avoid transaction fees altogether.  As soon as you devalue NXT to be the transaction fee token instead of a 1st gen coin, it is automatically devalued to be less than the coins being traded on it.  This coin will self-destruct in five seconds...
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March 13, 2014, 10:20:14 PM
 #44127

Good job Jean-Luc for implementing client side transaction signing and confirming the need for SSL between client and server for security!

I've missed that. Could you point me to where he said that?

its due to the use of an "ultralight" client versus a "light" client.  The API that JLP has just completed allows for an "ultralight" client to submit  transactions to a node, where the node prepares the transaction and gives bytes for the ultralight client to sign.  So if clients implement this "ultralight" functionality, then not only is SSL a must, but then these ultralight clients must implicitly trust that the VPS operators wont screw them over.

Contrast a "light" client that figures everything out on its own, but since doesnt maintain a blockchain, it submits the completed signed transaction to a VPS where SSL then is not that huge of a deal.

It doesn't make sense to write what you call an ultralight client then.

The only difference between what you call a light and an ultralight client are these lines of code:

 public byte[] getBytes() {

        ByteBuffer buffer = ByteBuffer.allocate(getSize());
        buffer.order(ByteOrder.LITTLE_ENDIAN);
        buffer.put(type.getType());
        buffer.put(type.getSubtype());
        buffer.putInt(timestamp);
        buffer.putShort(deadline);
        buffer.put(senderPublicKey);
        buffer.putLong(Convert.nullToZero(recipientId));
        buffer.putInt(amount);
        buffer.putInt(fee);
        buffer.putLong(Convert.nullToZero(referencedTransactionId));
        buffer.put(signature != null ? signature : new byte[64]);
        if (attachment != null) {
            buffer.put(attachment.getBytes());
        }
        return buffer.array();

    }

(ok, a bit more due to the attachment bytes...)

Why would you not implement this yourself in a client and have a trustless solution?
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March 13, 2014, 10:21:14 PM
 #44128


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March 13, 2014, 10:21:47 PM
 #44129


It is a temporary solution I see nodecoin as. James made it to solve our forging problem that has been discussed a million times. Nodecoins would definitely solve short term
forging issues until we have thousands of businesses supporting the network for their own sakes. But nodecoin must be traded in for a fixed amount of Nxt like a points system.
James of course should be rewarded well by one of the committees if this is approved

OK, there's 525,600 minutes in a year.  Say everybody gets 5 nodecoins per block.  That's 2.6 million node coins per year.  If their value under a "points" system is 0.01 NXT (completely arbitrary, who knows what the market price would be), that's the same as creating a new stash of 26,000 NXT per year - that's an inflation rate of 0.0000026%.  At the current nickel per NXT, that's $1300 per year raised for servers.  If NXT goes up by a factor of 10, that's $13K per year.

Let me just say, if NXT goes up by a factor of 10, there are PLENTY of stakeholders here (me included) that would pay a voluntary "donation" / tax of 0.0000026% to support the computer network that made it happen.

this is my point. This to me is an infrastructure committee bounty. And again James should be compensated well if we can implement this. Again this is temporary. Nxt needs to

pay for this support because it is an infant.

I still say outline for me the path money takes from being created as nodecoin to paying for a server via Paypal.  Or Bitcoin.  Because NXT is still an infant.
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March 13, 2014, 10:24:25 PM
 #44130

Pls someone answer.  If in some time,we had lots of nodes supporting the network,could we just get rid of nodecoins??Or would they be part of Nxt in their most basic structure???
Once issued, nodecoins will exist for 27 years as they are given out 100 per block.
nodecoins are NOT part of NXT core. It is not part of NXT basic structure.
It is simply an asset I created using NXT core.
anybody can do this

Clearly NXT is a very disruptive tech. It can disrupt itself!

There are literally more than 47 to the 10th power of potential assets that can be created. That a lot of assets. nodecoin is just one asset.

Still think nodecoin does not add value to NXT? Just the discussion it has created has now gotten a bunch of people thinking about how they can create their own coin and issue it on AE. Dont deny it, I know you are. I charge 2% of coins as they are mined, if you need my help.

James

Jesus.  We will have our own little coin market cap war inside NXT.  It's a recursive fight to the death.  I thought AE would just be a way to trade coins peer-to-peer and avoid transaction fees altogether.  As soon as you devalue NXT to be the transaction fee token instead of a 1st gen coin, it is automatically devalued to be less than the coins being traded on it.  This coin will self-destruct in five seconds...

But all of these coins competing with each other are generating fees in NXT to forgers...

As time goes on, the value of NXT will only grow as more and more services and coins are built ontop of it generate more and more fees (thus increasing the incentive for people to buy and hold their stake).

NXT: 13095091276527367030
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March 13, 2014, 10:25:17 PM
 #44131


Coins, assets services- everything created on top of NXT strengthens it. Like some have said, NXT is an ecosystem. Do you want to rely on us just being a transfer of value? Just a currency unit? If so, then we have already lost. It is what is built on top of what we already have is what will make NXT come out on top. We have an innovative platform to work with that enables all of these great things. And people want to bitch when the innovation starts to happen. Good grief.

If we have 10000 people mining nodecoin from their Windows taskbar that is 10000 people involved in NXT that weren't involved before. Thats 10000 new nodes. Thats 10000 people that were not making transactions in NXT before. If nodecoin ultimately fails we lose nothing. But if it succeeds we gain many new users that we would not have had. People who can become familiar with what NXT ECOSYSTEM truly is..

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March 13, 2014, 10:25:35 PM
 #44132


Jesus.  We will have our own little coin market cap war inside NXT.  It's a recursive fight to the death.  I thought AE would just be a way to trade coins peer-to-peer and avoid transaction fees altogether.  As soon as you devalue NXT to be the transaction fee token instead of a 1st gen coin, it is automatically devalued to be less than the coins being traded on it.  This coin will self-destruct in five seconds...

Ricky - if you look at AE in isolation - maybe yes...
But AE is not / will not be all we have.

Why should people just use AE coins? and if they do - so what...

If NXT doesn't allow these traceable items to be made,,,, ripple, counterparty, eXO, etherium, mastercoin, NEM, nick nack paddy whack and who knows what other coins will come along with AE type capabilities....

We need to give people reasons to use NXT as a primary coin, not prevent them from doing something with NXT....

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March 13, 2014, 10:26:12 PM
 #44133


It doesn't make sense to write what you call an ultralight client then.

Why would you not implement this yourself in a client and have a trustless solution?

THESE 2.  JLP, can you add an option to allow NRS to only process certain API requests from localhost?
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March 13, 2014, 10:29:14 PM
 #44134

Nxt on a major dump? please enlighten sb who doesnt have the time to check the megathread often.

what the holy rick is going on? nodecoins? nxt at 0.00006255? Hello? Smiley

thank u
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March 13, 2014, 10:29:56 PM
 #44135

Pls someone answer.  If in some time,we had lots of nodes supporting the network,could we just get rid of nodecoins??Or would they be part of Nxt in their most basic structure???
Once issued, nodecoins will exist for 27 years as they are given out 100 per block.
nodecoins are NOT part of NXT core. It is not part of NXT basic structure.
It is simply an asset I created using NXT core.
anybody can do this

Clearly NXT is a very disruptive tech. It can disrupt itself!

There are literally more than 47 to the 10th power of potential assets that can be created. That a lot of assets. nodecoin is just one asset.

Still think nodecoin does not add value to NXT? Just the discussion it has created has now gotten a bunch of people thinking about how they can create their own coin and issue it on AE. Dont deny it, I know you are. I charge 2% of coins as they are mined, if you need my help.

James

Jesus.  We will have our own little coin market cap war inside NXT.  It's a recursive fight to the death.  I thought AE would just be a way to trade coins peer-to-peer and avoid transaction fees altogether.  As soon as you devalue NXT to be the transaction fee token instead of a 1st gen coin, it is automatically devalued to be less than the coins being traded on it.  This coin will self-destruct in five seconds...
Your basis for this conclusion is?

i claim the NXT market cap will correlate with the SUM of the value of all the assets in AE. I provide as evidence, XRP market cap, which has done exactly that. At least as a rough approx, as big surge in December corresponded to big influx in CNY and subsequent decay in gradual exodus of assets out of ripple network.

Like it or not, AE makes NXT a similar animal as XRP. I have first hand experience with ripple and how it has fluctuated. I used to be an active market maker there, until the total fiat inside ripple drained away. I am not an economist, but when I see 70% of assets disappear and market value drops by 70%, well I was able to put two and two together.

What is your evidence of NXT destruction?

How exactly did you envision creating an economy using NXT by by building on top of NXT?
What is an economy? Isnt it people trading stuff with each other? Having a coinmarketcap war inside of NXT will bring a lot of activity and new blood into NXT. It will spawn the need for charting services, automated bot services, market makers, etc. Not exactly the joe-sixpack demographic, but in crypto land we know this is the group that provides liquidity.

I believe that I understand a lot of nuances about all this. If you have any evidence to support your theory that having active trading market of assets is totally destructive to NXT, please post. Otherwise you are just yelling "fire" in a movie theater, when there is no fire.

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
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March 13, 2014, 10:31:28 PM
 #44136

Pls someone answer.  If in some time,we had lots of nodes supporting the network,could we just get rid of nodecoins??Or would they be part of Nxt in their most basic structure???
Once issued, nodecoins will exist for 27 years as they are given out 100 per block.
nodecoins are NOT part of NXT core. It is not part of NXT basic structure.
It is simply an asset I created using NXT core.
anybody can do this

Clearly NXT is a very disruptive tech. It can disrupt itself!

There are literally more than 47 to the 10th power of potential assets that can be created. That a lot of assets. nodecoin is just one asset.

Still think nodecoin does not add value to NXT? Just the discussion it has created has now gotten a bunch of people thinking about how they can create their own coin and issue it on AE. Dont deny it, I know you are. I charge 2% of coins as they are mined, if you need my help.

James

Jesus.  We will have our own little coin market cap war inside NXT.  It's a recursive fight to the death.  I thought AE would just be a way to trade coins peer-to-peer and avoid transaction fees altogether.  As soon as you devalue NXT to be the transaction fee token instead of a 1st gen coin, it is automatically devalued to be less than the coins being traded on it.  This coin will self-destruct in five seconds...

Could this problem of devaluation get solved increassing the necessary fee to pay in nxt according to the value of the nodecoins in order to mantain a demand of nxt?
I mean, if everyone want to use nodecoin but in order to use them he have to pay 5nxt in fee, we can mantain the demand of nxt high enought to not devaluate it
Obviously this shouldn't be applied to all assets, I'm not coder and don't know if this can be done...
Maybe so stupid what I'm saying? It's late and the day was long  Tongue
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March 13, 2014, 10:31:41 PM
 #44137

Nodecoin will not allow you to circumvent Nxt fees, it's not built into core.  It's just an asset that you get for running a node, very simple. People will have to run Nxt client to get Nodecoin, so I have no idea why this would be perceived as bad for Nxt.  Nodecoin should be redeemable for accessing services (DAC, NxtCash, whatever), not for Nxt itself.  I don't see anyone trading Nxt for Nodecoin.  It gives us a good testcase for AE coins.  Thank you James.  Now let's help James with DAC, NxtCash, the good stuff!  
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March 13, 2014, 10:32:08 PM
 #44138

Nxt on a major dump? please enlighten sb who doesnt have the time to check the megathread often.

what the holy rick is going on? nodecoins? nxt at 0.00006255? Hello? Smiley

thank u

Two whales dumping part of their coins.
Even the biggest account is joining in on Bter with 1,3 million Smiley

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March 13, 2014, 10:32:53 PM
 #44139


I still say outline for me the path money takes from being created as nodecoin to paying for a server via Paypal.  Or Bitcoin.  Because NXT is still an infant.

I don't understand what you mean - why doesn't this from my earlier post provide a funding path

If the number of nodes in the network needs to be stimulated / maintained.
Create an order for node coins on the AE at a price people think it worth it...
People will run nodes to generate node coins to fill the order and redeem the coins for NXT


If people can get NXT then they can decide what to do with it...
I dont understand why the 'infant' means this can't be NXT and should be paypal or bitcoin...

the work is 'reward' not 'pay'... if they can't 'pay their bills' they shouldn't be running a node in the first place...

if we need to continue to pay for nodes directly then we need to do that not use node coin for that.

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grandpa_seth
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March 13, 2014, 10:38:12 PM
 #44140

Nodecoin is not a clear cut issue. It seems more want to see where this goes than not. James, release the hounds. I hope you make a lot of money on it.
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