NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[jl777]

I have idea for high level language to put on top of C. Why not some subset of Java?
If we can then allow access to a subset of Java (the safe ones) in the NXT core to the script, then it would be most powerful setup:

Java -> C -> higher_subleq -> subleq -> subleq VM

Since the C compiler for higher_subleq is relatively untested, this would require a project to port and validate the Java (subset) using that compiler.

Anybody interested? How much work would it be? Just running a small java program could generate so much NXT! Probably not so practical, but for a tech demonstration on the power of NXT, it would certainly get a lot of PR. Also, depending on how we count transactions, 1000TPS now seems it might not be enough...

James

P.S. http://arxiv.org/pdf/1106.2593.pdf is the key paper on this

[1715297111]

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[1715297111]

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[xyzzyx]

Does anybody know of any open source C compiler for the 28 opcode language? Libraries?

I know of an Oberon compiler for the 28 opcode language.  

If I have to choose between subleq and another unproven simple machine language ecosystem, I would choose subleq just because is to kind of cool with one opcode. But only if it is at the equivalent state.

I don't really care what underlying architecture is ultimately chosen.  I do think, however, that an expensive one in terms of overall performace vs. NXT cost will drive fragmentation to alternative less-costly architectures once the Nxt code is open.

AST/Slim-binaries will win here.

[jl777]

So, please explain why C compiler -> higher_subleq -> subleq is useless academic and not a practical solution. You have to remember I have been proven to be incompetent in technical stuff so I need to have things explained to me, even if it is obvious to the smart guys

James

Hmmm. Where to start with?

1) Yes, it could be done with it.
Why, because both languages are turing complete. (That's the stuff on the paper, proven with formulas etc.)

2) Yes, it could be practical.
But, the bugs are not on the paper and not in the formulas. But in the source code of the compilers and the VM AND their respective compilers.
It's not the mathematical proof that's wrong, it's just that programmers make mistakes as human usually do.

3) So, use proven technologies in the sense that time has proven them to be reliable.
Not proven in the sense of formulas.
It's more like robust or bulletproof code for VM and compilers.
Less bugs, more support, because more people are using them right now.
What if the subleq developers discontinue development? And so on.

But anyway, yes. You won the contest. 1 Op-Code is cool.

Hey, as cool as one opcode is I much prefer to use 28 or 32 or whatever if it gives us a better starting point as far as fully debugged libraries, etc. goes. The less work we have to do to be able to construct useful solutions, the better. That is my metric.

Does anybody know of any open source C compiler for the 28 opcode language? Libraries?

If I have to choose between subleq and another unproven simple machine language ecosystem, I would choose subleq just because is to kind of cool with one opcode. But only if it is at the equivalent state.

So, please anybody know of simplified machine language with open source C compiler and lots and lots of library code and projects verified on it?

James

ARM-RISC, there is. Compilers and VMs en masse.

VM for ARM-RISC.... have to research that. But's time to catch some sleep.

order of magnitude more work to implement ARM VM than OSIC VM, OSIC is the CPU they designed using subleq

[EvilDave]

Now that I've caught up with this thread, and it's almost bed time for the Evil one, I've got a couple of non-coding points to make:
(love the code talk, btw, I can smell the big-brain coding skills from here, it's the smell of success!)

Great job everyone, these last few pages of juicy dev talk are giving me the first nxt hard-on this february.

+1

Voting:

NXTvote.com looks tight

Damn right on that, having nxtvote up and running will make decisions around here a lot easier and probably fairer.


Most important bit: CfB and BCNext:

We've always known that CfB wasn't going to be around forever as NXT dev-in-chief.
He's a talented guy and without him, NXT would not be what it is today.
But we have a lot of talented guys (take a bow, everyone) and more coming in every day. NXT will carry on without CfB and will still be a success. We got thru 4 days without him last week, and made some good progress in that time.

It's easy to see guys in important roles as irreplaceable leaders, but the truth is that anyone can be replaced.
So stop looking at him like he's the Messiah, he's just a very naughty boy.


BCNext has good reason to be Mr. Anonymouse, look at the amount of pressure that gets put on Dan/Fuserleer from eMunie. Every time he sneezes, eMunie catches a cold. He definitely doesn't want to be the Messiah....
With BCNext in the background, communicating only with mysterious prophesies and complex code, the NXT community is forced to step up and build almost everything we need ourselves, which makes NXT a lot stronger than if we always had the option to turn to BCNext and ask "What do we do now, Daddy?"  

Ask yourselves this: if CfB was always going to be here, and BCnext was actually present and working, what would NXT look like now ?
A massive community, or 2 guys working and a 1000 watching?

Last point:
Get on with each other, ffs, save the fighting until we are on our island paradise in the Maldives.....we can build a Thunderdome!


 

[TwinWinNerD]

Bounty: Reddit.com Tip-Bot

https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=710&p=3403#p3403

http://www.reddit.com/r/NXT/comments/1wyi9j/looking_at_doge_i_really_think_we_need_a_reddit/

Donation address: NXTcommunityfund (jl777) 13776816462073143763
Write a PM to jl777 --> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=177323  
and tell him that you want to dedicate the donation to the reddit tip-bot.

Write a PM to me and let me know how much you sent to jl777 so i can keep this post uptodate!

List of Donations until now:
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507 NXT gs02xzz
(100-500 NXT Zahlen, but direct donation after finshed work)


Total: 607 NXT

We really need this bot going to increase our publicity on reddit!

[bitcoinpaul]

Anybody here from NxtCrypto.org have an issue with me using a cropped version of the Nxt on fire within my installer as seen below? I'm trying to spice it up a bit.

I thinks, it is not good.

- the message (a coin gets burned)
- it's streched
- imho the graphic should have a cleaner and more techy/flat style. This is not 2010. Should look professional, not playful

[Meizirkki]

That's an image from nxtcrypto.org.

Totally ok in the installer, whoever downloads it has already seen it in the main web page for this coin.

[TwinWinNerD]

That's an image from nxtcrypto.org.

Totally ok in the installer, whoever downloads it has already seen it in the main web page for this coin.

I really like the fire image!!!!

[TwinWinNerD]

@someone who knows how the NXT-"address" are created. Does the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford%27s_law apply here? I just wonder because the most accounts i see are starting with a 1. Is this equal distributed or Benford's law?

[xyzzyx]

Get on with each other, ffs, save the fighting until we are on our island paradise in the Maldives.....we can build a Thunderdome!

Does this chainmail make my thighs look fat?

[gimre]

Only a worry to those working on the VM, most users will never be concerned with it.

Imagine that u want to debug the byte-code of a transaction...

That's where my knowledge is lacking...  I don't understand how a concept like a programming language can be molded with the NXT platform.  I'll do more research.

I mean that debugging of stack-based code is more difficult than debugging of code working with arbitrarily accessed memory.

My 2 nxts...

The choice of VM instructions should depend on what you want allow this VM to do...

your machine can access whatever it wants (registers, memory, APIs, whatever), but machine code itself SHOULD be stack based.
It actually is and will be MUCH EASIER to debug.
(so obviously vm emu will have to be written in language, that the "node" is written in)

The other thing that should be done is some kind of small compiler (well assembler actually),
that would turn "code" written using mnemonics into (stack-based) "vm" bytecode

Please, think about it once again. I've written few VMs and stack-based are ALWAYS easier to implement, easier to parse, easier to debug, and if there's a need - EASIER TO OPTIMIZE.

[lucky88888]

looks like a fancy chocolate birthday cake

While I commend you for your work, I am wondering what is this for specifically?

I thought we all agreed that coins and similar representations should not be a thing in NXT?
NXTs logo is all we really need? Why do we need a geometric shape?

This is the ugliest thing i seen this month!  
I'm just speaking out loud.  

[jl777]

Who wants to make 10000 NXT?

I dont want to make a mistake on the selection of low level opcode.

Part of the task is to actually use the subleq, higher_subleq, C compiler, etc. and to make sure it functions properly. http://arxiv.org/pdf/1106.2593.pdf

We need an objective assessment, so lets compare it with the Oberon compiler or whatever other proposed solutions are made. Limit of three candidates to make sure it doesnt turn into never ending task.

We also need a C compiler test suite to assess what percentage of the language is even implemented and what percentage passes the tests. Identifying this test suite is part of the task.

We also need a bunch of low level C library source code (no machine dependencies) along with matching test suites to validate library functions. This portion of the task is valid regardless of what low level selection we make. This is why I am announcing bounty so quickly. I want there to be a repository of all the library code that has been verified to work with whatever compiler/language/machine code we end up with.

I prefer cooperative approach and this task has many parts. Please quote this post if you are interested in doing this.  The clock is ticking, lets get this done!

James

[TwinWinNerD]

Daily Update of NXT Top Account distribution:





Data can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtzyrOvYCfTTdEphdjBHNlNUMVZZUXd2RmlNVDRiUWc&usp=sharing

Includes the 2 big Exchange accounts: 10715382765594435905 and 12292439833850569026 and 16386134630970163904

Summary of the day: No notable transaction in/out of the Top60 accounts recorded.

[EvilDave]

Get on with each other, ffs, save the fighting until we are on our island paradise in the Maldives.....we can build a Thunderdome!

Does this chainmail make my thighs look fat?

Yes...but if u accessorise with a bigger chainsaw, it has a slimming effect.

[Anon136]

Libraries/Demo

Libraries for programs written in SUBLEQ assembly, as accepted by sqasm, are available.

They provide several common functions:

getint (read integer from input)
gets (read string from input)
putint (write integer to output)
puts (write string to output)

Several useful procedures are also available:

bubblesort (sort a string of characters)
calc (perform a given operation on two integers)
factorial (calculate the factorial of a positive integer)
primes (generate and print a list of primes)
Usage information and equivalent C code (where appropriate) is provided in the comments of each of these files.

A menu-driven program demonstrating the above libraries is also provided. Simply call make run in the project root directory to run the demo program.

Interpreter
A very minimal (only 222 bytes in size) SUBLEQ interpreter written in C is available:
_____________

What everyday operations do you have in mind?

You really like it, right? It's okay. Nevermind.

It's just that I trust technology like that only after many years of production. That's all.

It's not that I do not think they weren't capable of producing a good piece of compiler and libs.

It's just that: nobody's perfect, especially no programmers.

In the end, only time can 'prove' correctness.

Well if we can use proven solution, then we wouldnt have to develop our own. Do you want to wait until etherium is proven and then use that? I am confused again.

I think we can have a path to Turing complete script with C compiler and a small amount of functions.

The alternative is to implement 28 or 32 opcodes, which is a lot more work as each opcode needs to be implemented and tested, etc.

If CfB signs off on subleq VM, then we can start in parallel fleshing out and TESTING more and more C libraries based on subleq C compiler. I like being able to develop a project in separate pieces. As soon as we have subleq scripting, we can then hook up all the higher level stuff that has been ported and tested.

Does that make sense? Anon, Alias, CIYAM, other smart guys. Please tell me if I am being incompetent again, or did I get lucky?

James

P.S. If CfB signs off on subleq VM, I will authorize bounties for getting the higher level functions done. It is clear to me that we need a layer of code that abstracts the details of script, AM, etc and allows higher level development. With a C compiler available, maybe one of the bounties will be to port a higher level language to subleq VM

sorry. i'm not knowledgeable enough on this subject to have anything valuable to contribute. i will say though that we should probably not just lay about at let eTherium monopolize this market.

[qqNxt]

Have you guys noticed Vertcoin? It blasted up 300%+ now at $6.
The reason was that it went on Cryptsy. Now imagine nxt going on Cryptsy.  

[pandaisftw]

Have you guys noticed Vertcoin? It blasted up 300%+ now at $6.
The reason was that it went on Cryptsy. Now imagine nxt going on Cryptsy.  

All the more reason to not delay buying NXT. Cryptsy is going to add NXT sooner or later, you want to be holding NXT before that happens

[swartzfeger]

Bounty: Reddit.com Tip-Bot

https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=710&p=3403#p3403

http://www.reddit.com/r/NXT/comments/1wyi9j/looking_at_doge_i_really_think_we_need_a_reddit/

Donation address: NXTcommunityfund (jl777) 13776816462073143763
Write a PM to jl777 --> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=177323  
and tell him that you want to dedicate the donation to the reddit tip-bot.

Write a PM to me and let me know how much you sent to jl777 so i can keep this post uptodate!

List of Donations until now:
100 NXT TwinWinNerD
507 NXT gs02xzz
(100-500 NXT Zahlen, but direct donation after finshed work)


Total: 607 NXT

We really need this bot going to increase our publicity on reddit!

Agreed. Donation sent, PM'd you and James.

I'll be a reddit junkie if this gets off the ground.

[swartzfeger]

i will say though that we should probably not just lay about and let eTherium monopolize this market.

Dude, you're my hero. You just made me smile with that little portmanteau.