NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[VanBreuk]

Centralization is an issue. How do we counteract?

Pooled forging / leasing forging power will be great for that. Coming with account control features, iirc.

[swartzfeger]

I am just thinking out loud about how we can get Nxt more fair and better.

I currently hold 7288 NXT. I just purchased 1500 more ($70 USD). I'd love to have 30k by April 3.

There are two ways to be fair:

1. Buy your NXT
2. Work/earn your NXT

That 1500 NXT I purchased? I could afford it because I signed up for an extra shift where I work. That's fair.

Sorry to sound inflammatory, but everything else is BS.

I'd like to add that I've earned more in Nxt last month than I do at my regular job  

Well done, sir!

[Damelon]

Lower transaction fees will actually end up ENCOURAGING more transactions.

A twentieth part of a thousand pies gives one more pies than a tenth of a hundred pies

Edit: I'm hungry now 

[jl777]

PROPOSAL FOR AUTOMATED GATEWAY BACKED BY NXT COMMUNITY


I wanted to get the community's feedback on having a community backed gateway for the popular cryptos, eg. BTC, DOGE, LTC, etc. Long term, I want to have fully automated DAC's, but rather than wait for the NXT VM to be completed, I want to have a way for everyone to be able to trade cryptos in a decentralized way with a minimal amount of trust required.

What I am envisioning is the community will create automated gateway code that will be open sourced and it would be run on a hardened community server. If we cant find a volunteer to code the automated gateway, then I would be willing to hire for NXT someone to write the code. I have the design pretty much worked out, even using the existing AE restrictions.

deposit BTC -> gateway -> get BTC Asset
<BTC Asset is traded via AE>
withdraw BTC Asset -> gateway -> get BTC in wallet

The above is a simplified flow and you can replace BTC with DOGE or whatever we end up supporting. While the gateway would still be a single point of failure, it would be backed by the NXT community. Trusted members would manage the hardened server(s) and I think it makes sense to have a bit of NDIC (NXT deposit insurance by community) so in case of a loss caused by failure of gateway server. I am thinking that a 100000 NXT allocation against exploding data center will give additional peace of mind for people using the gateway. No protection if your computer gets hacked, the insurance is against the gateway server failures.

Assuming the community approves and I can get a volunteer to do the coding and a volunteer to get a hardened server (or maybe add this to an existing NXT node?) we can get this in place very quickly. As long as the gateway code runs, the  deposits and withdrawals will be processed automatically. Once inside the AE, everybody can trade it knowing it can be automatically withdrawn to the real thing at any time.

This means that within NXT there will be a decentralized exchange for all the cryptos, possibly within weeks!

If the client devs will also add a custom crypto exchange to the clients, NXT will effectively have this built in for all users. I am pretty sure DOGE can't do this!

James

Edit: Since community is paying for this, there will be no costs charged other than bare minimum protocol requires.

[swartzfeger]

This is the situation now, when we still haven't got many transactions (although more than a month ago).

The fees will rise when services are in place. I am still working on getting payment modules in place and also working on a simple shop.
Once there are more shops/services, fees will rise dramatically. Block can hold up to 255 transactions. That can be a LOT of Nxt to forge!

I can imagine why you say this in the current situation, but if we make it higher now, we will have major adoption problems in the future.

Patience, and knowing that there WILL be higher fees in the blocks are important here

Yes. I'm now 90+ minutes waiting for my NXT to arrive (my friend sent via dgex).

Higher fees means quicker turnaround. All sorts of creative folks will offer services that will fill the chain with fees.

[swartzfeger]

If the client devs will also add a custom crypto exchange to the clients, NXT will effectively have this built in for all users. I am pretty sure DOGE can't do this!

James

This is fantastic. Let's make it happen.

With all the Mt. Gox stuff happening, something like this will get a lot of attention.

Where would I toss some NXT to for a show of support if we get approval?

[ChuckOne]

Well, can't see why a percentage would be bad.

Centralization is an issue. How do we counteract?

dude, if you think the thrashing to NXT reputation has been bad so far, just wait till howling about how "the 73 big fat rich NXT stakeholders have decided to mandatory charge a percentage based transaction fee".
And will you still think its a good idea the next time YOU want to transfer 10000 NXT and are hit with a 100 NXT transfer fee instead of our soon to be base fee of .1 NXT?  Especially when that 100 NXT ends up going to a 'big fat rich stakeholder'?  If you do this, prepare for NXT adoption rates to plummet.  

1% transaction fee? You are kidding.

0.05% would be acceptable I think.

Why do you think a percentage is not a good idea?

I think it this way: percentages will lead to higher fees in total, which will lead to higher distribution of NXTs.

[Damelon]

PROPOSAL FOR AUTOMATED GATEWAY BACKED BY NXT COMMUNITY


If the client devs will also add a custom crypto exchange to the clients, NXT will effectively have this built in for all users. I am pretty sure DOGE can't do this!

James

Edit: Since community is paying for this, there will be no costs charged other than bare minimum protocol requires.

If this is safe and works, I'd be willing to back this with some funds (5000 Nxt)
I can't judge that myself, but if some devs say it is, I'm game.

[ChuckOne]

Centralization is an issue. How do we counteract?

Pooled forging / leasing forging power will be great for that. Coming with account control features, iirc.

But why is pooling aka centralization good?

I would like many nodes rather than a few.

[kknk808]

Centralization is an issue. How do we counteract?

Pooled forging / leasing forging power will be great for that. Coming with account control features, iirc.

But why is pooling aka centralization good?

I would like many nodes rather than a few.

pooled forging is to help the people that can't forge much alone.

This isn't send all your NXT to a single account which in general creates more a forging chance; but instead the nxt accounts all a part of the pool just lease forging power to the pool without giving any NXT to them outright. So don't think we would be giving up nodes  

Unless I understand the whole thing wrong 

[jl777]

PROPOSAL FOR AUTOMATED GATEWAY BACKED BY NXT COMMUNITY


If the client devs will also add a custom crypto exchange to the clients, NXT will effectively have this built in for all users. I am pretty sure DOGE can't do this!

James

Edit: Since community is paying for this, there will be no costs charged other than bare minimum protocol requires.

If this is safe and works, I'd be willing to back this with some funds (5000 Nxt)
I can't judge that myself, but if some devs say it is, I'm game.

Community will review the source code to make sure it is safe. I am thinking that we verify cross chain transactions with both the local bitcoind and also blockchain.info to get two sources of transaction confirmation. To minimize any concentration of deposits issue, we can create many deposit wallets that withdrawals are taken from. On each server, only the server admin will know the wallet address for that server, so we compartmentalize the financial risk.

If we wanted to take the insurance concept a bit further, we could have the server operators put up a bond against any deposits disappearing.

The entire trust issue is something that MUST be solved, otherwise AE will not be useful for trading anything with real value.

Directed donations to NXTcommunityfund are alway welcome. Just post here and rickyjames will tally it all up.

James

[ChuckOne]

Centralization is an issue. How do we counteract?

Pooled forging / leasing forging power will be great for that. Coming with account control features, iirc.

But why is pooling aka centralization good?

I would like many nodes rather than a few.

pooled forging is to help the people that can't forge much alone.

This isn't send all your NXT to a single account which in general creates more a forging chance; but instead the nxt accounts all a part of the pool just lease forging power to the pool without giving any NXT to them outright. So don't think we would be giving up nodes  

Unless I understand the whole thing wrong  

Maybe, I have not made myself clear enough. Let me rephrase it:

The more node the better because if there are more nodes, less and less of them are malicious.

node = computing device

If you transfer your forging power to somebody, then his node becomes stronger and we have less nodes.

[Eadeqa]

On each server, only the server admin will know the wallet address for that server, so we compartmentalize the financial risk.

How is that different than trusted gateway? Here we are trusting

(1) Server Admin (that's human)
(2) Hack protection of the server
(2) Client software

[gs02xzz]

If the client devs will also add a custom crypto exchange to the clients, NXT will effectively have this built in for all users. I am pretty sure DOGE can't do this!

James

+1

[ChuckOne]

PROPOSAL FOR AUTOMATED GATEWAY BACKED BY NXT COMMUNITY


If the client devs will also add a custom crypto exchange to the clients, NXT will effectively have this built in for all users. I am pretty sure DOGE can't do this!

James

Edit: Since community is paying for this, there will be no costs charged other than bare minimum protocol requires.

If this is safe and works, I'd be willing to back this with some funds (5000 Nxt)
I can't judge that myself, but if some devs say it is, I'm game.

Community will review the source code to make sure it is safe. I am thinking that we verify cross chain transactions with both the local bitcoind and also blockchain.info to get two sources of transaction confirmation. To minimize any concentration of deposits issue, we can create many deposit wallets that withdrawals are taken from. On each server, only the server admin will know the wallet address for that server, so we compartmentalize the financial risk.

If we wanted to take the insurance concept a bit further, we could have the server operators put up a bond against any deposits disappearing.

The entire trust issue is something that MUST be solved, otherwise AE will not be useful for trading anything with real value.

Directed donations to NXTcommunityfund are alway welcome. Just post here and rickyjames will tally it all up.

James

+1

[jl777]

On each server, only the server admin will know the wallet address for that server, so we compartmentalize the financial risk.

How is that different than trusted gateway? Here we are trusting

(1) Server Admin (that's human)
(2) Hack protection of the server
(2) Client software

It isn't. I am trying to find a community acceptable way to create a trusted gateway. No magic here. Just trying to create a trusted gateway. Once we have that, we hook it up to AE and we instantly get decentralized trading with only the trusted gateway requiring any trust.

The client software will be open sourced and preferably included in official client.

So it is not a breakthrough of any sort, just a plain vanilla project to create a community trusted gateway. As one of the leading skeptics of such things I would like to hear what we need to do to create such a trusted gateway.

James

Edit: I am posting here to get constructive feedback on this idea. If we cant figure this out, then we will end up with dozens of fragmented markets all still requiring trust of an isolated issuer. Thats no better than ripple...

[VanBreuk]

Centralization is an issue. How do we counteract?

Pooled forging / leasing forging power will be great for that. Coming with account control features, iirc.

But why is pooling aka centralization good?

I would like many nodes rather than a few.

The way I imagined this implied rather "block fees pooling", where you keep your coins in your account, but if you are joined to the pool, all the fees gathered by pool members generating blocks go to a common pool fund and are distributed to everyone according to their pool share.

[opticalcarrier]

1% transaction fee? You are kidding.

0.05% would be acceptable I think.

Why do you think a percentage is not a good idea?

I think it this way: percentages will lead to higher fees in total, which will lead to higher distribution of NXTs.

ok thats not a bad rate at all.  I was expecting some yahoo to want a much bigger cut.  so then we have something like



amt                   percentage     fee       rounded
1.00                   0.05%   0.0005   0.01
10.00                   0.05%   0.005       0.01
100.00           0.05%   0.05       0.01
1,000.00           0.05%   0.5       0.5
10,000.00           0.05%   5       5
100,000.00           0.05%   50       50
1,000,000.00   0.05%   500       500
10,000,000.00   0.05%   5000       5000
100,000,000.00   0.05%   50000    50000



Those lower amount transactions have their fees rounded up to .01 as it appears that will be our lowest expressable amount of NXT in the near future.  CfB has stated that .01 is fairly easy to accomplish, but that lower than that will be 'complex'

Can you elaborate on why you think it will improve distribution? I say that its the fatcats that are forging that will suck those up, actually making the distribution worse, countertuitive to your logic, but I may be wrong, can you walk me through it if you think Im wrong?

Then there is the issue of all the high rollers's transactions always having priority over lower ones.

IMO a percentage based fee goes against the spirit of the concept of decentralized banking.  Where now, thats how the bankers do things - they get their % cut.  With a single fee everything is equal, unless you WANT priority by paying for it.

[jl777]

1% transaction fee? You are kidding.

0.05% would be acceptable I think.

Why do you think a percentage is not a good idea?

I think it this way: percentages will lead to higher fees in total, which will lead to higher distribution of NXTs.

ok thats not a bad rate at all.  I was expecting some yahoo to want a much bigger cut.  so then we have something like

Code:

amt                   percentage	  fee	    rounded
1.00	                0.05%	0.0005   0.01
10.00	                0.05%	0.005	    0.01
100.00	        0.05%	0.05	    0.01
1,000.00	        0.05%	0.5	    0.5
10,000.00	        0.05%	5	    5
100,000.00	        0.05%	50	    50
1,000,000.00	0.05%	500	    500
10,000,000.00	0.05%	5000	    5000
100,000,000.00	0.05%	50000    50000
[code]

Those lower amount transactions have their fees rounded up to .01 as it appears that will be our lowest expressable amount of NXT in the near future.  CfB has stated that .01 is fairly easy to accomplish, but that lower than that will be 'complex'

Can you elaborate on why you think it will improve distribution? I say that its the fatcats that are forging that will suck those up, actually making the distribution worse, countertuitive to your logic, but I may be wrong, can you walk me through it if you think Im wrong?

Then there is the issue of all the high rollers's transactions always having priority over lower ones.

IMO a percentage based fee goes against the spirit of the concept of decentralized banking.  Where now, thats how the bankers do things - they get their % cut.  With a single fee everything is equal, unless you WANT priority by paying for it.

[/code]

New rate will be 0.1 NXT per transaction. Anything other than fixed rate will require more code changes and I seriously doubt the community will ever agree on any sort of scaled fee per send, especially since current all fees are the same, send, alias, etc. Remember, we are planning on 1000TPS. That means 100NXT per SECOND in forging. If that is not enough then you need to sell all your NXT and get something that returns 500% per year.

[Damelon]

On each server, only the server admin will know the wallet address for that server, so we compartmentalize the financial risk.

How is that different than trusted gateway? Here we are trusting

(1) Server Admin (that's human)
(2) Hack protection of the server
(2) Client software

I see this as a transitory stage, which may well be replaced in the future by a trustless system.

I think James is saying that at this point we need such à gateway because we need nxt to be traded to get people involved and generally get the machinery working.

I agree on this.

Correct me if I am misrepresenting your motivation here, James.