NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[swartzfeger]

I am just thinking out loud about how we can get Nxt more fair and better.

I currently hold 7288 NXT. I just purchased 1500 more ($70 USD). I'd love to have 30k by April 3.

There are two ways to be fair:

1. Buy your NXT
2. Work/earn your NXT

That 1500 NXT I purchased? I could afford it because I signed up for an extra shift where I work. That's fair.

Sorry to sound inflammatory, but everything else is BS.

[opticalcarrier]

maybe this http://wiki.eclipse.org/Jetty/Howto/Configure_SSL#Configuring_Jetty

yes those were the instructions I used.  Actually most of that has already been done, as the NRS client as provided by JLP already has SSL enabled with a default keystore and a self-signed cert.

I just imported my cert in there as per those instructions, should be fairly simple, but...

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I dont think approaching anything from the "rich getting richer" is a good idea in a 100% POS system.  IMO though fee should be based on transaction byte size.  And even if it were based on scale of larger transactions = larger fee, the 'rich' are more apt to mine those higher fee blocks anyways.  There just doesnt seem to be a way to prevent the 'problem', as it were.  Regardless, 'the critics' wont matter the more and more NXT features are released.

The real concern here is people just giving up forging, or centralizing their forging power into central pools.

I understand that in a POS system the people with the most stake are getting more rewarded. But how about people with less money/BTC and also want to join Nxt?
I have over 100k, but in 24/7 I forge 9 NXT in a month... So from today I quited forging, to much risk for the reward. I am sorry.

I am just thinking out loud about how we can get Nxt more fair and better.

BTC:  buy tons of mining power, which depreciates, and the cost of the BTC you earn also depreciates by 10% each year.  Or  buy tons of NXT to forge NXT, which doesnt depreciate.  NXT is just as 'unfair' as BTC is; Id say the fact that asic power depreciates puts NXT over the top.  As well as NXT is deflationary since some bozos destroy their NXT.

Dude, RIGHT FREAKING NOW is the opportunity to buy TONS of NXT, BEFORE it really goes mainstream.  We are at the point now comparable to BTC's stage when BTC was $0.01/BTC.  I just dont understand what people are bitching about.  Oh, but some other people bought 49M NXT for only 1BTC, WHAAAAAAAA!  Well what about the point when BTC cost was only $.0001/BTC, was that also not unfair?

[ChuckOne]

Sometimes I feel a bit frustrated about the fee-system of Nxt, when I see these kind of blocks passing by:


Fee = 0,0016%


Fee = 33,33%

It's not really fair and the rich are getting even richer this way. I love Nxt, but there are small flaws which needs to be addressed. The critics will talk negative about Nxt because of these kind of issues. 

Maybe a percentage instead of a fixed fee? Curious to hear about the options.

I dont think approaching anything from the "rich getting richer" is a good idea in a 100% POS system.  IMO though fee should be based on transaction byte size.  And even if it were based on scale of larger transactions = larger fee, the 'rich' are more apt to mine those higher fee blocks anyways.  There just doesnt seem to be a way to prevent the 'problem', as it were.  Regardless, 'the critics' wont matter the more and more NXT features are released.

The real concern here is people just giving up forging, or centralizing their forging power into central pools.

Well, can't see why a percentage would be bad.

Centralization is an issue. How do we counteract?

[Damelon]

I am just thinking out loud about how we can get Nxt more fair and better.

I currently hold 7288 NXT. I just purchased 1500 more ($70 USD). I'd love to have 30k by April 3.

There are two ways to be fair:

1. Buy your NXT
2. Work/earn your NXT

That 1500 NXT I purchased? I could afford it because I signed up for an extra shift where I work. That's fair.

Sorry to sound inflammatory, but everything else is BS.

I'd like to add that I've earned more in Nxt last month than I do at my regular job 

[farl4web]

Dude, RIGHT FREAKING NOW is the opportunity to buy TONS of NXT, BEFORE it really goes mainstream.  We are at the point now comparable to BTC's stage when BTC was $0.01/BTC.  I just dont understand what people are bitching about.  Oh, but some other people bought 49M NXT for only 1BTC, WHAAAAAAAA!  Well what about the point when BTC cost was only $.0001/BTC, was that also not unfair?

I'm not bitching dude, I'm just making constructive criticism. Let me phrase it like this:



Is 1 NXT per 1000 NXT transaction a better idea?  

[Damelon]

Dude, RIGHT FREAKING NOW is the opportunity to buy TONS of NXT, BEFORE it really goes mainstream.  We are at the point now comparable to BTC's stage when BTC was $0.01/BTC.  I just dont understand what people are bitching about.  Oh, but some other people bought 49M NXT for only 1BTC, WHAAAAAAAA!  Well what about the point when BTC cost was only $.0001/BTC, was that also not unfair?

I'm not bitching dude, I'm just making constructive criticism. Let me phrase it like this:



Is 1 NXT per 1000 NXT transaction a better idea?  

This is the situation now, when we still haven't got many transactions (although more than a month ago).

The fees will rise when services are in place. I am still working on getting payment modules in place and also working on a simple shop.
Once there are more shops/services, fees will rise dramatically. Block can hold up to 255 transactions. That can be a LOT of Nxt to forge!

I can imagine why you say this in the current situation, but if we make it higher now, we will have major adoption problems in the future.

Patience, and knowing that there WILL be higher fees in the blocks are important here

[opticalcarrier]

Well, can't see why a percentage would be bad.

Centralization is an issue. How do we counteract?

dude, if you think the thrashing to NXT reputation has been bad so far, just wait till howling about how "the 73 big fat rich NXT stakeholders have decided to mandatory charge a percentage based transaction fee".  Think about it this way: will you still think its a good idea the next time YOU want to transfer 10000 NXT and are hit with a 100 NXT transfer fee instead of our soon to be base fee of .1 NXT?  Especially when that 100 NXT ends up going to a 'big fat rich stakeholder'?  If you do this, prepare for NXT adoption rates to plummet.  

Lower transaction fees will actually end up ENCOURAGING more transactions.

WTF people, I swear its like all the libtards here in the US wanting to raise taxes EVERYWHERE to pay for their social programs, resulting in lower activity in business, and then they wonder why shit isnt working.  WTF people, yeah all the 0bamacare bullshit is REALLY helping out, people are starting to wake up now that employers are starting to cut hours of employees to prevent having to pay healthcare.  nice move dumbasses

[VanBreuk]

Centralization is an issue. How do we counteract?

Pooled forging / leasing forging power will be great for that. Coming with account control features, iirc.

[swartzfeger]

I am just thinking out loud about how we can get Nxt more fair and better.

I currently hold 7288 NXT. I just purchased 1500 more ($70 USD). I'd love to have 30k by April 3.

There are two ways to be fair:

1. Buy your NXT
2. Work/earn your NXT

That 1500 NXT I purchased? I could afford it because I signed up for an extra shift where I work. That's fair.

Sorry to sound inflammatory, but everything else is BS.

I'd like to add that I've earned more in Nxt last month than I do at my regular job  

Well done, sir!

[Damelon]

Lower transaction fees will actually end up ENCOURAGING more transactions.

A twentieth part of a thousand pies gives one more pies than a tenth of a hundred pies

Edit: I'm hungry now 

[jl777]

PROPOSAL FOR AUTOMATED GATEWAY BACKED BY NXT COMMUNITY


I wanted to get the community's feedback on having a community backed gateway for the popular cryptos, eg. BTC, DOGE, LTC, etc. Long term, I want to have fully automated DAC's, but rather than wait for the NXT VM to be completed, I want to have a way for everyone to be able to trade cryptos in a decentralized way with a minimal amount of trust required.

What I am envisioning is the community will create automated gateway code that will be open sourced and it would be run on a hardened community server. If we cant find a volunteer to code the automated gateway, then I would be willing to hire for NXT someone to write the code. I have the design pretty much worked out, even using the existing AE restrictions.

deposit BTC -> gateway -> get BTC Asset
<BTC Asset is traded via AE>
withdraw BTC Asset -> gateway -> get BTC in wallet

The above is a simplified flow and you can replace BTC with DOGE or whatever we end up supporting. While the gateway would still be a single point of failure, it would be backed by the NXT community. Trusted members would manage the hardened server(s) and I think it makes sense to have a bit of NDIC (NXT deposit insurance by community) so in case of a loss caused by failure of gateway server. I am thinking that a 100000 NXT allocation against exploding data center will give additional peace of mind for people using the gateway. No protection if your computer gets hacked, the insurance is against the gateway server failures.

Assuming the community approves and I can get a volunteer to do the coding and a volunteer to get a hardened server (or maybe add this to an existing NXT node?) we can get this in place very quickly. As long as the gateway code runs, the  deposits and withdrawals will be processed automatically. Once inside the AE, everybody can trade it knowing it can be automatically withdrawn to the real thing at any time.

This means that within NXT there will be a decentralized exchange for all the cryptos, possibly within weeks!

If the client devs will also add a custom crypto exchange to the clients, NXT will effectively have this built in for all users. I am pretty sure DOGE can't do this!

James

Edit: Since community is paying for this, there will be no costs charged other than bare minimum protocol requires.

[swartzfeger]

This is the situation now, when we still haven't got many transactions (although more than a month ago).

The fees will rise when services are in place. I am still working on getting payment modules in place and also working on a simple shop.
Once there are more shops/services, fees will rise dramatically. Block can hold up to 255 transactions. That can be a LOT of Nxt to forge!

I can imagine why you say this in the current situation, but if we make it higher now, we will have major adoption problems in the future.

Patience, and knowing that there WILL be higher fees in the blocks are important here

Yes. I'm now 90+ minutes waiting for my NXT to arrive (my friend sent via dgex).

Higher fees means quicker turnaround. All sorts of creative folks will offer services that will fill the chain with fees.

[swartzfeger]

If the client devs will also add a custom crypto exchange to the clients, NXT will effectively have this built in for all users. I am pretty sure DOGE can't do this!

James

This is fantastic. Let's make it happen.

With all the Mt. Gox stuff happening, something like this will get a lot of attention.

Where would I toss some NXT to for a show of support if we get approval?

[ChuckOne]

Well, can't see why a percentage would be bad.

Centralization is an issue. How do we counteract?

dude, if you think the thrashing to NXT reputation has been bad so far, just wait till howling about how "the 73 big fat rich NXT stakeholders have decided to mandatory charge a percentage based transaction fee".
And will you still think its a good idea the next time YOU want to transfer 10000 NXT and are hit with a 100 NXT transfer fee instead of our soon to be base fee of .1 NXT?  Especially when that 100 NXT ends up going to a 'big fat rich stakeholder'?  If you do this, prepare for NXT adoption rates to plummet.  

1% transaction fee? You are kidding.

0.05% would be acceptable I think.

Why do you think a percentage is not a good idea?

I think it this way: percentages will lead to higher fees in total, which will lead to higher distribution of NXTs.

[Damelon]

PROPOSAL FOR AUTOMATED GATEWAY BACKED BY NXT COMMUNITY


If the client devs will also add a custom crypto exchange to the clients, NXT will effectively have this built in for all users. I am pretty sure DOGE can't do this!

James

Edit: Since community is paying for this, there will be no costs charged other than bare minimum protocol requires.

If this is safe and works, I'd be willing to back this with some funds (5000 Nxt)
I can't judge that myself, but if some devs say it is, I'm game.

[ChuckOne]

Centralization is an issue. How do we counteract?

Pooled forging / leasing forging power will be great for that. Coming with account control features, iirc.

But why is pooling aka centralization good?

I would like many nodes rather than a few.

[kknk808]

Centralization is an issue. How do we counteract?

Pooled forging / leasing forging power will be great for that. Coming with account control features, iirc.

But why is pooling aka centralization good?

I would like many nodes rather than a few.

pooled forging is to help the people that can't forge much alone.

This isn't send all your NXT to a single account which in general creates more a forging chance; but instead the nxt accounts all a part of the pool just lease forging power to the pool without giving any NXT to them outright. So don't think we would be giving up nodes  

Unless I understand the whole thing wrong 

[jl777]

PROPOSAL FOR AUTOMATED GATEWAY BACKED BY NXT COMMUNITY


If the client devs will also add a custom crypto exchange to the clients, NXT will effectively have this built in for all users. I am pretty sure DOGE can't do this!

James

Edit: Since community is paying for this, there will be no costs charged other than bare minimum protocol requires.

If this is safe and works, I'd be willing to back this with some funds (5000 Nxt)
I can't judge that myself, but if some devs say it is, I'm game.

Community will review the source code to make sure it is safe. I am thinking that we verify cross chain transactions with both the local bitcoind and also blockchain.info to get two sources of transaction confirmation. To minimize any concentration of deposits issue, we can create many deposit wallets that withdrawals are taken from. On each server, only the server admin will know the wallet address for that server, so we compartmentalize the financial risk.

If we wanted to take the insurance concept a bit further, we could have the server operators put up a bond against any deposits disappearing.

The entire trust issue is something that MUST be solved, otherwise AE will not be useful for trading anything with real value.

Directed donations to NXTcommunityfund are alway welcome. Just post here and rickyjames will tally it all up.

James

[ChuckOne]

Centralization is an issue. How do we counteract?

Pooled forging / leasing forging power will be great for that. Coming with account control features, iirc.

But why is pooling aka centralization good?

I would like many nodes rather than a few.

pooled forging is to help the people that can't forge much alone.

This isn't send all your NXT to a single account which in general creates more a forging chance; but instead the nxt accounts all a part of the pool just lease forging power to the pool without giving any NXT to them outright. So don't think we would be giving up nodes  

Unless I understand the whole thing wrong  

Maybe, I have not made myself clear enough. Let me rephrase it:

The more node the better because if there are more nodes, less and less of them are malicious.

node = computing device

If you transfer your forging power to somebody, then his node becomes stronger and we have less nodes.

[Eadeqa]

On each server, only the server admin will know the wallet address for that server, so we compartmentalize the financial risk.

How is that different than trusted gateway? Here we are trusting

(1) Server Admin (that's human)
(2) Hack protection of the server
(2) Client software