NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[ZeroTheGreat]

Thanks for explaining. Now I understand. But if Im right, forging NXT, will not give you a lot of NXT..

0.18% per month. That's before AE, low activity. After AE activity'll stabilize at some higher level.

[fmiboy]

Thank you dear Mr. Stackeholder, what a generous move!!  

This is so cool!

I think we would all appreciate if more big stakeholders did what 7017504655955743955 has done today, especially top 50 accounts which are all from 5 million to 50 million NXT.

To them to spread 100,000 like 7017504655955743955 did would be nothing but this would show even more greatness of this community and this project.

In the end, doing something like this would just raise the worth of NXT in a long run and paradoxically their main stash would be worth much more than this little part that they have possibly disbursed to this hard working community.

Just something to think about.

Once again BRAVO for 7017504655955743955!!

It would be nice if there was a multisend feature in the client. If I could line up all the addresses of hard working nxt'ers and one-click send a given amount, say 1000nxt (as in each would get 1000) I'd be very inclined to give more regular donations in just this way. Sitting at the computer and putting in 50 or how ever many transactions is a PITA.

It was a pain for my giveaway, +1

Yeah, I felt this myself too giving to 10 NXT to 100 people in the last 3 days! 

thank you 7017504655955743955.

Multisend support already exist in ClieNxt! I had this implemented at early stages, to help giveaways and there was even manual exchange that time.

[Meizirkki]

if we are changing the fees from 1 NXT drastically to 0.01 NXT when transactions are few right now, isn't it a security concern since people will stop running nodes since there is little incentive to it?

0.01 is too low. it would not be sufficient to mitigate spamming. people would be using the blockchain like they use twitter.

I don't think that's a problem. High tps should be throughly tested before there's a real need for it.

[Anon136]

if we are changing the fees from 1 NXT drastically to 0.01 NXT when transactions are few right now, isn't it a security concern since people will stop running nodes since there is little incentive to it?

0.01 is too low. it would not be sufficient to mitigate spamming. people would be using the blockchain like they use twitter.

I don't think that's a problem. High tps should be throughly tested before there's a real need for it.

wow. good argument.

[BrianNowhere]

if we are changing the fees from 1 NXT drastically to 0.01 NXT when transactions are few right now, isn't it a security concern since people will stop running nodes since there is little incentive to it?

I would continue to run a node just protect my investment and to be a good member of the NXT community even if there was no chance of increasing my NXT. I have close to 70K NXT and have been forging since the first of the year and have generated 3 blocks - each of them for 0 NXT.

This guy is the ideal Nxt citizen. Although I can hardly believe anybody is forging right now to make nxt money, the fees are more about preventing
spamming. Its a tricky balance we are faced with especially at this early stage. We anticipate a robust nxt economy where hundreds or thousands
of businesses are dependent on the nxt network with our 1000 tps. When that day comes fees will not need to be so high yet forging will still be
profitable due to the constant influx of transactions. However at this point its like a ghost town in comparison so 1 nxt fee is still necessary.

That is why right now it is very important for everyone to support nxt not to get fees but to keep the network alive and well until that day comes.
I think I will cry when that day comes. No, not because all the community's hard work will have been paid off. No, not because BCNext's vision
of a new economy and less reliance on government control will be here. Not because there will be a Nxt Bible published filled with CFB's
mysterious riddles divided into chapters and Psalms. Not because of any of that. But because we will all be rich  

Im forging also since 0.4.0. I'm not doing it for fee, but only to protect the network. I believe in NXT future and this is sufficient for forging. Im sure there is many other like me out there.

Edit: Right now, I believe that people that are forging fee would be better to give away those to promote NXT. This would probably generate a better ROI than only keeping the fee for themselve.

People like me and you will run nodes for free because we are the kind of people who read bitcointalk.org and geek out on this kind of stuff. People like me and you go around answering users questions on different forums, donate to bounties for developers and spread tips around like candy all to spread the word because we want NXT to be a success.

Thing is, most people are not like you and me, so the questions remains; how many users will be needing to run nodes when TF is fully implemented and there's a lot of users, most of whom will probably not be forging but just using the currency like people use bitcoin?

Is there a mathematically known figure for what percentage of the network will need to be running nodes for the network to work reliably?

It worries me a little bit how cavalierly this question gets treated here. I GET IT that forging should be a civic duty. I WILL do this. But will enough people do it? What if they don't? If it's not a problem I'll stop asking but just assuming people will be all koom-by-ya and run a 24/7 node because they love NXT so much is a little on the naive side.

[Jerical13]

Thank you dear Mr. Stackeholder, what a generous move!!  

This is so cool!

I think we would all appreciate if more big stakeholders did what 7017504655955743955 has done today, especially top 50 accounts which are all from 5 million to 50 million NXT.

To them to spread 100,000 like 7017504655955743955 did would be nothing but this would show even more greatness of this community and this project.

In the end, doing something like this would just raise the worth of NXT in a long run and paradoxically their main stash would be worth much more than this little part that they have possibly disbursed to this hard working community.

Just something to think about.

Once again BRAVO for 7017504655955743955!!

It would be nice if there was a multisend feature in the client. If I could line up all the addresses of hard working nxt'ers and one-click send a given amount, say 1000nxt (as in each would get 1000) I'd be very inclined to give more regular donations in just this way. Sitting at the computer and putting in 50 or how ever many transactions is a PITA.

It was a pain for my giveaway, +1

Yeah, I felt this myself too giving to 10 NXT to 100 people in the last 3 days! 

thank you 7017504655955743955.

Multisend support already exist in ClieNxt! I had this implemented at early stages, to help giveaways and there was even manual exchange that time.

What if there were some sort of flat fee applied over a time period or something? For accounts that have a lot of activity? If you could chose to pay by the transaction or choose to pay a rate for a group of transactions like you suggest or choose to pay like a weekly or monthly rate if you move a lot of NXT? Honestly though, I don't think the fees will really be an issue for businesses, as the buck will be passed and fees will just be overhead that will be adjusted for in pricing for services or products. Once the asset exchange is up and functional, the benefits of the NXT network will out weigh any issues with fees. besides the fact that the more people who buy NXT and the more evenly it is dispersed the higher the odds that any account will have to compensate for fees buy forging blocks, as the individual fee per transaction will be the same but there will be more transactions per block, plus (ideally) there will be fewer accounts holding such large amounts of NXT. Higher participation and more even distribution is naturally going to make fees a non issue.

I would also like to thank 7017504655955743955.

[lucky88888]

whale selling bitcoin on bitstamp 

https://www.bitstamp.net/market/order_book/
$579.34   6890.30799740   $3,991,831.04
was around 9k i think.

[CIYAM]

In regards to forging we actually have a dilemma - so let's look at it carefully:

Current approach of PoS with "pools" will lead to exactly the same situation as Bitcoin (a few pools controlling the entire network). This is okay from a performance perspective (you'd expect them to be running great hardware) but it is not okay from the perspective of decentralisation. If governments decide to seize the servers of the pools then Nxt could literally disappear.

The approach I have suggested will probably not be "botnet" proof - but at the end of the day does that matter?

At least it is decentralised - and if everyone is arguing that the whole "forging" thing is something we shouldn't even talk about (as it is not an incentive) then why not let the botnets help us to secure the network?

To use a Simpsons style quote:

I for one welcome our new botnet overlords!

[BrianNowhere]

Thank you dear Mr. Stackeholder, what a generous move!!  

This is so cool!

I think we would all appreciate if more big stakeholders did what 7017504655955743955 has done today, especially top 50 accounts which are all from 5 million to 50 million NXT.

To them to spread 100,000 like 7017504655955743955 did would be nothing but this would show even more greatness of this community and this project.

In the end, doing something like this would just raise the worth of NXT in a long run and paradoxically their main stash would be worth much more than this little part that they have possibly disbursed to this hard working community.

Just something to think about.

Once again BRAVO for 7017504655955743955!!

It would be nice if there was a multisend feature in the client. If I could line up all the addresses of hard working nxt'ers and one-click send a given amount, say 1000nxt (as in each would get 1000) I'd be very inclined to give more regular donations in just this way. Sitting at the computer and putting in 50 or how ever many transactions is a PITA.

It was a pain for my giveaway, +1

Yeah, I felt this myself too giving to 10 NXT to 100 people in the last 3 days!  

thank you 7017504655955743955.

Multisend support already exist in ClieNxt! I had this implemented at early stages, to help giveaways and there was even manual exchange that time.

What if there were some sort of flat fee applied over a time period or something? For accounts that have a lot of activity? If you could chose to pay by the transaction or choose to pay a rate for a group of transactions like you suggest or choose to pay like a weekly or monthly rate if you move a lot of NXT? Honestly though, I don't think the fees will really be an issue for businesses, as the buck will be passed and fees will just be overhead that will be adjusted for in pricing for services or products. Once the asset exchange is up and functional, the benefits of the NXT network will out weigh any issues with fees. besides the fact that the more people who buy NXT and the more evenly it is dispersed the higher the odds that any account will have to compensate for fees buy forging blocks, as the individual fee per transaction will be the same but there will be more transactions per block, plus (ideally) there will be fewer accounts holding such large amounts of NXT. Higher participation and more even distribution is naturally going to make fees a non issue.

I would also like to thank 7017504655955743955.

I think the asset exchange idea is awesome, but sometimes I think the developers are putting all their eggs in this basket, which is probably going to be kind of niche thing and somewhat of a small market. Most people have no interest in organizing an internet business or investing in online start-ups and all the things that the asset exchange will be able to do. It will be a thing for businesspeople and the internet savvy but not really something for the everyday joe who just wants to pay a nickel to read an article in the new york times or buy some shoes online without using a credit card.

The alternative currency that comes out on top of this coin-boom is going to be the one that people recognize and use to easily send money from point a to point b. There will be one currency that has the name recognition of Google that everyone knows is the one to acquire and utilize. Right now that's clearly Bitcoin, which is actually quite inadequate for the task because of the slow confirmation times.


There's a tremendous opportunity to take the lead here for a currency that works better than bitcoin. POS is the technology that can do that. NXT could become the new Google of alternative-currency but if it does it will be first and foremost because it does what Bitcoin does better than Bitcoin does it. Asset Exchanges, Decentralized Exchanges and Colored Coins are cool and revolutionary ideas (Ripple actually has a bit of a head start on NXT in this area) but being able to send micro-transactions over the internet anonymously is really still the Pièce de résistance of what is really going to attract people in droves.

[stoneone]

Green Nxt: exotic video, new version:
http://youtu.be/cP4KFH6Iz0g

feel free to share

good job.

[Eadeqa]

In regards to forging we actually have a dilemma - so let's look at it carefully:
Current approach of PoS with "pools" will lead to exactly the same situation as Bitcoin (a few pools controlling the entire network). This is okay from a performance perspective (you'd expect them to be running great hardware) but it is not okay from the perspective of decentralisation. If governments decide to seize the servers of the pools then Nxt could literally disappear.

The approach should be to reduce the transaction fee. People who are invested in Nxt will still run full NRS software just to protect the network, but there would be no incentive for pools as the fees would be too low to even bother.  I suspect vast majority of people who own $1000+ worth of Nxt would still run it, not to make money but  for keeping the network (thus their investment) secure.

 Unlike Bitcoin, running a Nxt node doesn't cost anything. If someone has Internet connection and old unused computer, and has $1000+ worth of Nxt, why not run a node?
 

[CIYAM]

Unlike Bitcoin, running a Nxt node doesn't cost anything. If someone has Internet connection and old unused computer, and has $1000+ worth of Nxt, why not run a node?

Of course people can run a node with zero chance of getting any forging reward but they are not helping with confirmations (so they are not really helping to *secure* the network at all).

Understand with TF we are actually going to be directly sending our requests to probably 1 of x servers (where I expect x will not be a large number) owned by pools (so the rest of the network is actually not doing anything apart from trying to "keep up").

[BrianNowhere]

People who are invested in Nxt will still run full NRS software just to protect the network.

People keep stating this like it's a fact. What if enough people don't do this? What is the minimum percentage of users who need to run nodes for everything to work? Most people are not rational actors, especially once NXT is operating on a grand scale.
It makes me nervous that no one who is in the know has ever answered this questions when I ask it. It just gets ignored and glossed over.

[CIYAM]

Maybe I need to draw a picture (as clearly people are just not getting this).

We are going to have this situation after TF is implemented as currently planned:

Code:

[Pool 1] [Pool 2] [Pool 3] ... [Pool x]
   1/x      1/x      1/x   ...    1/x

Where 1/x is each pool's chance of forging the next block (once we have pools then non-pool nodes are going to be a very small minority).

You are only going to send you tx to one of those pools - you are not going to bother sending it anywhere else as you want your "instant confirmation" (and who wouldn't?).

So the network is being *secured* (meaning forging blocks not just passing packets) by a total of "x" nodes.

Clear enough yet?

[BrianNowhere]

 Unlike Bitcoin, running a Nxt node doesn't cost anything. If someone has Internet connection and old unused computer, and has $1000+ worth of Nxt, why not run a node?
 

Because most people don't bother with doing things that don't have some benefit for them. Most non-tech savvy people I know turn off their computers when they aren't using it. If you told every Bitcoin user that it would be really helpful if they ran a small program on their computer but that they'd receive nothing in return for doing it, only a very small percentage of them would actually do it.

A good comparison might be Bittorrent. The hard-core users run an open node and let people download things off their hard-drive 24/7 because they want to support the concept, while most people just leech, only opening up their torrent program when they want something and then immediately X'in out of it once they have it.

If that sort of arrangement is enough to make NXT network and TF work, then fine. I can't seem to get a straight answer though if that is enough.

If you're asking a majority of users to run open nodes for little to no reward I can almost guarantee failure.

[msin]

There's a tremendous opportunity to take the lead here for a currency that works better than bitcoin. POS is the technology that can do that. NXT could become the new Google of alternative-currency but if it does it will be first and foremost because it does what Bitcoin does better than Bitcoin does it. Asset Exchanges, Decentralized Exchanges and Colored Coins are cool and revolutionary ideas (Ripple actually has a bit of a head start on NXT in this area) but being able to send micro-transactions over the internet anonymously is really still the Pièce de résistance of what is really going to attract people in droves.

+1

[CIYAM]

If you're asking a majority of users to run open nodes for little to no reward I can almost guarantee failure.

Not only is there no reward but under the currently proposed TF there is actually *zero* benefit (i.e. they are not helping to secure the network at all).

[sepehr]

If you're asking a majority of users to run open nodes for little to no reward I can almost guarantee failure.

Not only is there no reward but under the currently proposed TF there is actually *zero* benefit (i.e. they are not helping to secure the network at all).

Agree with CIYAM,

I'm running 4 servers now!
But if it continues this way, may stop all!
I have more than $7000 in NXT but received 1 NXT per week after several weeks!!! It's really frustrating and community should consider it!

I know that it's about 430 peers on NXT Network now but what happening after frustration? God knows!

Network may not shape correctly and securely if this continues!

Just IMHO!

[BrianNowhere]

Maybe I need to draw a picture (as clearly people are just not getting this).

We are going to have this situation after TF is implemented as currently planned:

Code:

[Pool 1] [Pool 2] [Pool 3] ... [Pool x]
   1/x      1/x      1/x   ...    1/x

Where 1/x is each pool's chance of forging the next block (once we have pools then non-pool nodes are going to be a very small minority).

You are only going to send you tx to one of those pools - you are not going to bother sending it anywhere else as you want your "instant confirmation" (and who wouldn't?).

So the network is being *secured* (meaning forging blocks not just passing packets) by a total of "x" nodes.

Clear enough yet?

Is joining a pool going to be something that is transparent within the Client, where you can basically "set it and forget it" and not think about it, or is it something that is going to require fucking around with the command line or installing strange things on your computer?
If it's the latter, most people are just not going to bother. If it's this hard to explain to us here, imagine how hard it;s going to be to explain to John Q Fumblefingers.

[Eadeqa]

If you're asking a majority of users to run open nodes for little to no reward I can almost guarantee failure.

Not only is there no reward but under the currently proposed TF there is actually *zero* benefit (i.e. they are not helping to secure the network at all).

Everyone with 50,000 Nxt has like once in a week chance of forging? If there are are 1000 such accounts that are forging outside of pools, they will have a pretty significant role in securing the network.