NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[redsn0w]

In ~8 hours I'm planning to reload the testnet, balances will be reset.

Hi Cfb , at the moment I still have 30k  TestNxt in my account :   4940924250576724047

[CIYAM]

How can we sure that no entity will game the system, when there is no functioning penalty?

As I stated to "game the system" you need a huge amount of forging power as you need to be able to create "multiple" blocks behind peoples back in order to have any hope of winning against those "playing fairly" (remember that the longest chain with the best tickets is the winner every time - so if enough honest players are out there then it would be rather hard to beat them).

So for a small player there doesn't seem to be much reason for the penalty (as there would need to be many such small players "in on" the deal to try and help with a fork) - with regards to the larger players it does make some sense (as an "extra" insurance).

[msin]

SWARM NEEDED

Here is the reddit post, please everyone sign up at Bittrex.

Hello NXT community,

I solicited feedback on another thread about which coins we should support on our exchange before our public launch. NXT was overwhelmingly recommended.

Before we make the final decision, we're providing a special invite code for NXT users to experience our site first hand. Go to https://bittrex.com/Account/Register and use SUPPORT_NXT as the invite code. This gets you past the invite code queue. Place some trades, enabled 2FA, or try any of our other features to help us stress the site before the final launch. If you find a bug, we're handing out bug bounties as well. Having a great exchange helps us but also helps the NXT community.

If we get 100 signs ups using that code and active on our site, we'll add NXT before our public launch.

Please let me know if you have any questions or feedback, Bill

Just a reminder for everyone who hasn't already to please sign up for Bittrex.  Will also update everyone on Atomic Trade soon.  Thank you

68 signups as of this mornings, we need 32 more people to sign up at Bittrex, please do so if you have not.  Thank you.

[pandaisftw]

So the idea is, that the above is nonsense?

IMO it isn't necessary to do it this way but I don't know the *exact* details of this TF so it is hard to be certain.

Secretly trying to create an alternative blockchain "behind our backs" would require a lot of collusion (although this does depend upon just how many pools we end up with).

I can see if we ended up with only a very small number of pools that controlled the vast majority of forging power then you would have a very real potential threat but if our forging power is spread much better than that then I don't see it is an issue (it would require a lot of different parties to collude and the chances of that would become lower according to the number of said parties).

Another idea does spring to mind though - maybe we should "only apply the penalty to forgers controlling more than x% of the stake" (unless we are worried about collusion happening between potentially thousands of smaller forging nodes). This would protect against the largest stake holders colluding whilst giving smaller stake holders more incentive to forge.

The most important thing we have to consider here is the "health of the network".

https://blockchain.info/pools

2 pools in bitcoin own ~51% of the network hashpower... have they ever colluded (since they only need 51%)? Also, I wonder why this isn't big news... 2 pools that large is definitely unhealthy. Anyways, extrapolating the % distribution to NXT (91% attack), all 10 of the named pools + half of the unknown sources on that list would all have to be in collision at the same time.

Pretty much impossible (relative to Bitcoin).

[bitcoinpaul]

Let me construct a scenario to better understand it.

1. I'm Janet Yellen and want to score a coup.
2. I buy a shitload of NXT since february 2014.
3. Running some servers till christmas and then say to the admins: "Ok, guys. Now every time, we are the only nodes in the group who should forge a block we don't. Ok?" "Yes, Madame"
4. We disturb the whole Nxt network by not forging when we should do it.
5. We do it over and over again because we are not penalized.

Now how likely is it that we are the only nodes in the forging group? Well, this depends on how big the group is, how many Nxt and accounts I have. But, well Janet has a lot. How large is the group? Don't know.

Where is my mistake?

[CIYAM]

Pretty much impossible (relative to Bitcoin).

Yes - this is also my opinion - so although I can see it might be useful as an "extra insurance" against possible collusion I am worried that it result in "less forging nodes" as those who only have 1 account and find themselves constantly being penalised are likely to prefer to allocate their forging rights to a pool rather than get frustrated.

[CIYAM]

4. We disturb the whole Nxt network by not forging when we should do it.

This is where you're misunderstanding things - although there is always a "best ticket" out there we can accept one that is "close enough" if we see it (this is why a lot of people are going to get penalised as they will be saying "try my ticket" but the network will end up choosing another "better ticket" as the best ticket was sent out after yours and others decided to pick it instead of yours).

The stake holder with the best ticket may not bother forging or assigning his/her forging rights to a pool.

So the network will *always* have another block to pick from so your "not forging" is not likely to "disturb" the network at all. The threat is that you and a band of conspirators are building a secret "best chain" offline ready to replace the last X blocks (i.e. the >50% attack).

[bitcoinpaul]

4. We disturb the whole Nxt network by not forging when we should do it.

This is where you're misunderstanding things - although there is always a "best ticket" out there we can accept one that is "close enough" if we see it (this is why a lot of people are going to get penalised as they will be saying "try my ticket" but the network will end up choosing another "better ticket" as the best ticket was sent out after yours and others decided to pick it instead of yours).

So the network will *always* have another block to pick from so your "not forging" is not likely to "disturb" the network at all. The threat is that you and a band of conspirators are building a secret "best chain" offline ready to replace the last X blocks.

I get that the bigger threat is the secret offline chain we want to build.

But the other part, I don't get. Can you rephrase it?

edit: Ok, I might get it now. But have to think more about it - thought I could disturb the network. Not 'destroy' it, but disturb.

[redsn0w]

SWARM NEEDED

Here is the reddit post, please everyone sign up at Bittrex.

Hello NXT community,

I solicited feedback on another thread about which coins we should support on our exchange before our public launch. NXT was overwhelmingly recommended.

Before we make the final decision, we're providing a special invite code for NXT users to experience our site first hand. Go to https://bittrex.com/Account/Register and use SUPPORT_NXT as the invite code. This gets you past the invite code queue. Place some trades, enabled 2FA, or try any of our other features to help us stress the site before the final launch. If you find a bug, we're handing out bug bounties as well. Having a great exchange helps us but also helps the NXT community.

If we get 100 signs ups using that code and active on our site, we'll add NXT before our public launch.

Please let me know if you have any questions or feedback, Bill

Just a reminder for everyone who hasn't already to please sign up for Bittrex.  Will also update everyone on Atomic Trade soon.  Thank you

68 signups as of this mornings, we need 32 more people to sign up at Bittrex, please do so if you have not.  Thank you.

Done  .

[CIYAM]

But the other part, I don't get. Can you rephrase it?

Okay - so let's say that the best ticket for the next block should be #12345 and you have #12344 and someone else has #12346.

If #12345 is not transmitted then nodes will accept your ticket or the other ticket instead (remember that each node in the network can't *see* everything at once so both you and the other node after a certain amount of time waiting to see #12345 decide it isn't going to appear and "try your luck").

So your node will send out #12344 and the other node will send out #12346. The network is happy to build on one of those new chains (lets assume that the "lower" ticket closest is always the best) so now #12346 will be "penalised".

It hasn't hurt the network - it is fine to keep on building with your #12344 but it has now hurt #12346 as they can't forge for a day.

Also network latency makes it impossible for you to be sure whether in fact #12345 has been sent or not (due to timing it may well have but your slow internet connection means that you didn't see it on time).

So if #12345 actually had been broadcast but both you and the other forger just didn't see it quickly enough then now you are both penalised.

[evanxxx]

How can we sure that no entity will game the system, when there is no functioning penalty?

As I stated to "game the system" you need a huge amount of forging power as you need to be able to create "multiple" blocks behind peoples back in order to have any hope of winning against those "playing fairly" (remember that the longest chain with the best tickets is the winner every time - so if enough honest players are out there then it would be rather hard to beat them).

So for a small player there doesn't seem to be much reason for the penalty (as there would need to be many such small players "in on" the deal to try and help with a fork) - with regards to the larger players it does make some sense (as an "extra" insurance).

If small player not penalized, what if large stakeholders split their Nxts into multiple accounts and game the system?

[CIYAM]

If small player not penalized, what if large stakeholders split their Nxts into multiple accounts and game the system?

The whole point of being able to "lease" your forging right would mean that a pool can't do that (effectively you end up with no pools otherwise).

Pools are not a bad idea as to achieve the high TPS we are wanting we are most likely going to need them.

[evanxxx]

If small player not penalized, what if large stakeholders split their Nxts into multiple accounts and game the system?

The whole point of being able to "lease" your forging right would mean that a pool can't do that (effectively you end up with no pools otherwise).

Pools are not a bad idea as to achieve the high TPS we are wanting we are most likely going to need them.

Maybe I don't get the point, but by gaming the system, I mean something like forging a secret chain.

[Meizirkki]

I don't get the whole pool thing? Is it possible now to lease your forging power without sending out all your nxt?

[CIYAM]

Maybe I don't get the point, but by gaming the system, I mean something like forging a secret chain.

Okay - let's imagine two chains (and think of the numbers after each letter as being "weight"):

A(100) B(10) C(50) = 160 (total weight)

A(50) B(200) C(100) = 340 (total weight)

So although A(100) is better than A(50) once we have B(200) and C(100) added to it then it is of no use for A(100) to "suddenly appear".

Thus if you are going to "game the system" you need to be sure that you can win the game. Without collusion you will not achieve this.

[S3MKi]

Do we have news about crypto audit?

[CIYAM]

I don't get the whole pool thing? Is it possible now to lease your forging power without sending out all your nxt?

Not right at the moment - but it soon will be.

This will actually make it possible via the use of an AT (Automated Transaction or "Turing complete transaction") to create yourself a "savings account" which after being created won't even require you to have your computer on to earn extra NXT (depending upon your stake of course).

[Meizirkki]

I don't get the whole pool thing? Is it possible now to lease your forging power without sending out all your nxt?

Not right at the moment - but it soon will be.

This will actually make it possible via the use of an AT (Automated Transaction or "Turing complete transaction") to create yourself a "savings account" which after being created won't even require you to have your computer on to earn extra NXT (depending upon your stake of course).

I assume this will be implemented by the community if nxt devs don't do it.. so yea. A real problem right here.

[bitcoinpaul]

I don't get the whole pool thing? Is it possible now to lease your forging power without sending out all your nxt?

Not right at the moment - but it soon will be.

This will actually make it possible via the use of an AT (Automated Transaction or "Turing complete transaction") to create yourself a "savings account" which after being created won't even require you to have your computer on to earn extra NXT (depending upon your stake of course).

Today is Q&A with CIYAM

Why do we need AT for the savings account?

[CIYAM]

Why do we need AT for the savings account?

Actually you don't but the AT will be more designed as a "term deposit" (i.e. the funds are *locked* until a certain time then released).

It will be helpful for those that "don't trust themselves" and also could function for passing on "an inheritance" of NXT (by having it tie into the Dormant Funds Transfer AT I've built).