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Author Topic: [SKY] Skycoin Launch Announcement  (Read 381238 times)
xibeijan
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June 28, 2017, 10:12:30 AM
 #3061

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Coins have to be held for the development process.

How many % ? plz

They are only holding 95% for development and arbitrary distribution..
http://explorer.skycoin.net/blocks

95%?!?!

Notable projects 2019: Semux, Dero, Wagerr, BEAM
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June 28, 2017, 03:34:19 PM
 #3062


We will have an AMA with one of the main devs of skycoin on https://ark.io/slack/ on Thursday 29th, at 11pm Hong Kong time.

See you there.
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June 28, 2017, 03:40:15 PM
 #3063

Sky[Suspicious link removed]d name, hope his price will go to the sky
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June 28, 2017, 06:56:30 PM
 #3064

AMA with SkyCoin in ARK Slack Thursday, 29th of June at 8am PT (11 am EST).
Join ARK slack to participate and ask SkyCoin developers questions: https://ark.io/slack/










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June 29, 2017, 04:33:00 AM
 #3065

I am interested in a Skycoin feature..

- powerful scripting language for contracts (non-turing complete statically typed LISP variant)

Is that in accord to these lectures?

the science of insecurity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEfedtQVOY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7etmSeivU8


http://heatledger.com LIVE ICO 3.0 GENERATION CRYPTO WITH COMPANY STOCK IPO OPTIONS
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June 29, 2017, 06:08:17 AM
 #3066


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June 29, 2017, 02:41:57 PM
 #3067


AMA with SkyCoin in ARK Slack starts in 20 minutes!
Join ARK slack to participate and ask SkyCoin developers questions: https://ark.io/slack/










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June 29, 2017, 07:39:03 PM
 #3068

Happy to announce that skycoin will attend cryptofiancing conference in London: https://www.crypto-financing.com/speakers/enda-crowley/

https://twitter.com/Skycoinproject/status/880505710831960064
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June 29, 2017, 10:51:33 PM
 #3069

Skycoin is the best coin. Security from the ground up. Can't wait for some sky hardware  Grin

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June 30, 2017, 03:20:52 AM
 #3070

Log of the AMA:

https://twitter.com/Skycoinproject/status/880626935751168001

https://www.reddit.com/r/ArkEcosystem/comments/6kb4wz/log_of_ama_with_skycoin/

Big thanks to ARK for hosting!

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June 30, 2017, 04:05:39 PM
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Unfortunately I was unable to attend the AMA, but have read through the log. Some excellent questions were asked and thank you synth for giving detailed answers. I have a few questions and comments of my own.

The skynode hardware is planned to use ARM, which I agree is better than x86 for our purposes. Have you considered the Risc-V architecture? Obviously it is still quite new, so there are reasons not to use risc-v such as limited availability and inmature toolchains/ software ecosystem. However it is the most open spec CPU which is ideal for skycoins goal of eliminating potential hardware backdoors. Risc-v chips may be available in limited quantities and higher prices currently, but to drive production up and prices down people need a reason to buy risc-v over arm. Skycoin could be that reason.

Another question, what layer of the OSI model will skywire protocol occupy? From what I've read it sounds like Layer 3 network protocol, however that would require some way for nodes to bridge over tcp/ip (the regular internet) unless they are directly connected. Or is skywire layer 7 application protocol, riding on top tcp/ip like most everything else?

Finally, to the people complaining about distribution, maybe it's not ideal but I've seen far worse schemes used and result in successful project. I am still eager to see the specifics regarding future distribution, but I think it is actually pretty wise of them to retain control over distribution (for now at least) because it's still an alpha phase project and protocol implementation details are still being finalized. Also I think many people may not realize that if you want to eliminate miners (and all the associated issues) from the equation, there are few ways (maybe none? idk) to secure the network without having all coins (or atleast a large portion like in PoS) generated in the genesis block. So it is a trade off, one that I think is worth it since PoW is highly inefficient and consuming massive amounts of electricity globally when there are more earth-friendly ways to secure crypto coins.
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July 02, 2017, 06:03:47 PM
 #3072

Update:

The prototype for the Skywire miner is done.

"Dedicated hardware for the new internet".



This is
- 8 CPU boards
- 2 GB of RAM per board
- 4 CPU cores per board
- 64 GB of storage per board
- 64 bit linux (Alpine Linux)
- gigabit ethernet, 8+1 port switch

- We are doing a production run of 300 units
- We are getting the software toolchain for automated deployment and being able to deploy and configure the Skycoin daemons/nodes/processes across a cluster (Skycoin node, CXO node, consensus node, Skywire node, bbs node, sky-exchange node, etc)
- Working on  reverse SSH proxy and firewall hole punch and the administrative tools.

The initial target is to be "zeroconf"
- zero configuration
- plug it in and it will start reporting to a command server and you can start deploying processors

The VPN and Socks5 proxy is done, but we are still implementing bandwidth metering and settlement and clearing in Skywire. You wont be able to receive coins for operating the network, until metering and then settlement/clearing is implemented. This could take two months.

You still have to peer nodes and clusters by hand, but after Sky-messenger ( github.com/skycoin/net ) is working, we should have a chatbot and be able to peer clusters by public key.

For second hardware generation will want to add
- OLED screen in the front, for RAM/CPU/Bandwidth, Skycoins per hour
- OpenWRT router
- SATA ports on the board for at least 4 CPU boards or m.2 when its available
- 32 and 64 board models

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July 02, 2017, 07:49:34 PM
Last edit: July 03, 2017, 07:30:40 AM by skycoin
 #3073

Unfortunately I was unable to attend the AMA, but have read through the log. Some excellent questions were asked and thank you synth for giving detailed answers. I have a few questions and comments of my own.

The skynode hardware is planned to use ARM, which I agree is better than x86 for our purposes. Have you considered the Risc-V architecture? Obviously it is still quite new, so there are reasons not to use risc-v such as limited availability and inmature toolchains/ software ecosystem. However it is the most open spec CPU which is ideal for skycoins goal of eliminating potential hardware backdoors. Risc-v chips may be available in limited quantities and higher prices currently, but to drive production up and prices down people need a reason to buy risc-v over arm. Skycoin could be that reason.

Another question, what layer of the OSI model will skywire protocol occupy? From what I've read it sounds like Layer 3 network protocol, however that would require some way for nodes to bridge over tcp/ip (the regular internet) unless they are directly connected. Or is skywire layer 7 application protocol, riding on top tcp/ip like most everything else?

Finally, to the people complaining about distribution, maybe it's not ideal but I've seen far worse schemes used and result in successful project. I am still eager to see the specifics regarding future distribution, but I think it is actually pretty wise of them to retain control over distribution (for now at least) because it's still an alpha phase project and protocol implementation details are still being finalized. Also I think many people may not realize that if you want to eliminate miners (and all the associated issues) from the equation, there are few ways (maybe none? idk) to secure the network without having all coins (or atleast a large portion like in PoS) generated in the genesis block. So it is a trade off, one that I think is worth it since PoW is highly inefficient and consuming massive amounts of electricity globally when there are more earth-friendly ways to secure crypto coins.

Yes. We are planning on doing RISC-V.

We are trying to get a $30 million government R&D grant for public private partnership in order to fund dual use RISC-V open source CPU ASICs. That would be competitive in price and performance with existing ARM processors. The ideal thing is to get someone else to pay for it completely, but doing it this way is slower and is based upon relationships.

RISC-V already runs on FPGA, so the engineering overhead on our side would be rather low. Cutting out the wifi, video card and all of the junk on a modern ARM processor, also cuts down the chip area and improves the yield.

China currently has domestic MIPs processors for military, government and domestic applications. Russia has also developed their own domestic ARM processors for military and government.

I think the next generation is definitely looking at moving from MIPS to RISC-V.

We have to build our own demand and consumer market, for the volumes to make sense. When we need to ship several hundred million a year, we are definitely commited to dedicated ASICs. However, we believe a competitive market for these ASICs will develop even if we do no do them themselves. It may be better, to subsidize the engineering and development costs for promising projects rather than doing it ourselves (unless we can get a government or large sponsor willing to fund the whole toolchain).

The end goal is always open source hardware. Some of the early ICO money went towards modest funding of an end-to-end completely open source FPGA tool chain. However the open source compatible FPGAs do not have the gate count to run a full CPU yet.

The cryto and routing protocol for Skywire, was designed to be FPGA native. So we may end up skipping RISC-V and going to to FPGA for the networking layer, leaving secure RISC-V processors for applications and

Skycoin's CX programming language (github.com/skycoin/cx) is being designed for RISC-V type processors with explicit load/store at each cache level and with no CPU flags (add and add and jmp if carry are separate instructions).

>is skywire layer 7 application protocol, riding on top tcp/ip like most everything else?

Skywire will run over anything that can transmit bitstreams. Including HAM radio, Wifi, Ethernet, UDP, TCP/IP and even embedding chained messages in a DHT. It is even designed to work with asymmetric connection topologies that can only transmit or can only receive.

> I am still eager to see the specifics regarding future distribution, but I think it is actually pretty wise of them to retain control over distribution (for now at least)

When Skycoin's market cap is ten billion dollars, then we can start doing serious infrastructure investment.

Skycoin's market cap and specifically its usefulness is tied to physical infrastructure. The velocity of money and real spending (not speculative spending, but real economic activity), is going to be a linear function of specific infrastructure that the project needs to bootstrap.

Some of these ASICs for SDR can cost $5 million to $20 million each. Some of the things we want, require expensive, highly specialized analog/digital ASICs. The RISC-V ASIC may be $30 million dollars and have no other existing consumer market, but be absolutely necessary to deliver particular security guarantees to network stakeholders.

For custom PCB boards and more control over the hardware toolchain and to bootstrap and open source ecology, among several companies is going to be at least $120,000 to $600,000 but offset by consumer orders.

We may also need to get full time staff, to compile our own linux distribution and for preparing deterministic build setups for packages and completely removing binary blobs from the kernel.

Security architecture and hardening is going to be a large issue, because I do not think the MtGox style exchange heists are over yet. The Intel and AMD remote management engine back doors are in the public domain now and it is going to be almost impossible for anyone running servers on AMD or Intel hardware to keep their coins from being looted and pillaged.

Open source hardware wallets and RONJA hardware is another area we can invest in.

Distribution:

Skycoin's development model is basic upon ASICminers, because their approach was very successful. They were the first cryto-stock to exceed a hundred million dollar market cap and they did not even have a blockchain to track equity ownership because Ethereum did not even exist yet and I think Bitcoin was still at $8.

The more Skycoin are "distributed", the less each of them is worth. For instance
- ASIC miners takes money and invests in hashing power and pays a reward to their investors
- A. ASIC miners sells 1 million shares at $5 a share, and buys 50% of hashing power
- B. ASIC miners sells 2 million shares at $5 a share, and buys 50% of hashing power

- In both cases the value of the shares went up hundreds of times and the reward pays off the cost of a share hundreds of times.
- However, the pie is the same size for both A and B.
- In B, the pie is divided among twice as many people, so each person gets half as much

Skycoin really should be priced as an equity, with a cap on the issuance. Issuing more Skycoin, means the pie (the value of the network and the velocity of money from real economic activity) is divided among more coins, but the value itself of all coins equals the value of the network.

If there are 100 million Skycoin issued, then the value of the network is divided more per coin than if only 10 million Skycoin are issued.

Skycoin blurs the boundaries between different types of assets, because of its design
- a crypto-coin (fixed cap)
- an equity (coins representing shares of value of network/economic activity, stock buybacks from economic operations through skywire)
- a fixed income instrument (coin-hours)
- a crop-share
- a store of value
- value derived from use
- an open ended investment fund (infrastructure development/investment)

It is going to get very confusing for several reasons
- coins are issuing coin-hours (that can be used to rent network capacity flows)
- coins are also used as a currency
- a person can "rent" (buy coin hours) or buy a share of network capacity flows (buy coinhour producing assets, equivalent to a crop share or stake of network ownership). (stocks and flows are different units and have to be treated differently or the equations do not balance or even have the right units).
- there are buybacks (a tithe from skywire operation used for skycoin buybacks)
- there is directed infrastructure investment for demand creation (both in software, the ecosystem and later in physical hardware and physical infrastructure)

This is an experiment in a new economic model.

One example, besides ASICminer is STEEMIT
- STEEMIT has miners who receive coins for generating blocks
- A percentage of the coins received by miners are allocated to a content platform
- people who create content on the platform are given given (based upon user votes and content popularity)
- The content attracts users, some of whom then on to purchase STEEMIT tokens to tip content creators

These are all struggling attempts, experiments at creating a closed economic system of consumption and production (a microcosm of society), within the context of a crypto-currency. Bitcon, STEEMIT, gnosis and Ethereum are really embryonic. No one has succeeded in creating an actually, closed, self sustaining system of consumption and production. None of these coins have engineered, designed or implemented a closed loop economic system yet.

Right now, the crypto markets are completely driven by speculation and new capital inflows (unsustainable). People are investing hundreds of millions of dollars in ICOs and buying at a dollar, to sell at $5 while no real value is being created, no real economic activity is occurring and the development teams have done nothing by market and hype.

This can only continue for as long as you have an exponentially increasing wave of new capital flooding in (and this probably going to continue for at least a decade). While the volume of money coming in to a market, is increasing at a faster rate than the money leaving, then everything can go up all the time, regardless of merit, purpose or common sense.

You are going to see people, holding vast holdings of hundreds of millions of dollars in nominal coin wealth on paper, who are unable to convert their "wealth" to anything or spend it. They are going to have $3 billion dollars on paper, but it wont be liquid because it will take them 500 years at the rate of liquidity the market will allow, to convert the coin into anything else without tanking the market.

You have to differentiate between demand that is created by speculators and demand that is created by real economic activity and use value. Speculative demand can evaporate as a matter of opinion, while demand and transactions generated by real economic activity is immutable and eternal, and exists independent of opinion (speculation).

The reason we have so many ICOs, if that coins can raise 10 million dollars, then for every $1 in marketing, they can produce $10 in new capital inflows. So everyone makes money (in the short term), but these flows are merely speculative capital inflows and do no represent real wealth or real economic activity. However, this situation can continue for as long as new capital continues to flood into the crypto asset class and may continue for a decade or two at the current rate.

Skycoin was built with a very specific economic philosophy and outlook. The people who understand that philosophy are not telling us to "distribute" more coins carelessly, they are saying "Why raise money by selling coins at $5, when you can wait a while and sell them at $50". The whole point of raising money, is that we can invest $1 and create $50 in network value. If we are only getting $0.50 on the dollar for every dollars we put in, then its malinvestment and we should not be doing it.

I have met people who are going to regret everyday for the rest of their lives that they did not buy Bitcoin when it was at a penny. I think if the Skycoin project delivers on 1/3rd of its objective, there are going to be people who will commit suicide and kill themselves, because they did not buy Skycoin when they could. And Skycoin is only designed to be a niche coin, in a specific, strategic, defensive part of the ecosystem.

So there is a compromise between a well defined targeted, specific audience and something like Dash, Monero and Bitcoin. The larger positions are often not defensible and any innovation (in marketing or technical) is easily and rapidly copied (open source software). Meaning that there are only a few defensible or long term stable niches in the markets.

If you actually look at what Skycoin is doing and can understand it. Then no one would want to copy it, they would not want to commit the resources to it, they would not be able to find the resources and even if they could, there would be far easier ways to make quick money. Why spend six years building something long term, when you can do zero development and raise 250 million dollars with an Ethereum token tomorrow, without having to deliver anything?

The reason I think people will literally kill themselves for not investing in this or that crypto, is fairly simple.

If you look at how many hundreds of trillions of dollars there are offshore being hunted down and money in toxic assets, non-performing debt and speculative bubble that have not popped yet, the number is beyond comprehension. In some scenarios if governments do not freeze accounts and do "bail ins" and grab money out of circulation, restrict capital flight, or suspend asset sales we could see a bubble phase of fleeing capital, where cryptos end up priced at a multiple of total world assets (or atleast at levels comparable to the value of all gold and government fiat).

You have banks and scam artists looting whole countries like Greece with engineered debt scams and seizing pension funds, then sizing up other countries and asking "Can we do this to Germany?", "Could we get away with this in America?", "Can we do this to Russia again like we did in 1994?". These people are plundering and looting whole nations, to the degree that they have so much money they have already bought up all the liquid real assets available.

I have no idea how they are going to fit their trillions of dollars of loot and plunder into this 80 billion crypto asset class, but that is what they are going to do. When the whole asset class goes up 100x, anything you buy is going to go up. You are going to see people peddling the peak of human retardation, becoming billionaires overnight.

I think under some scenarios, we could be entering a bout of temporary insanity and the largest asset bubble in human history, for at least the last five hundred years. At the same time as the largest financial crisis and catastrophic implosion of empire in the past five hundred years.

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July 02, 2017, 08:07:50 PM
 #3074

Quote

Coins have to be held for the development process.

How many % ? plz

They are only holding 95% for development and arbitrary distribution..
http://explorer.skycoin.net/blocks

95%?!?!

The coins will probably be distributed over 14 years.

The distribution rate has been pretty constant for five years now.

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July 02, 2017, 08:14:15 PM
 #3075

I just completed reading the entire thread... OMG..

Most of it is people asking how to participate in the ICO...

So many got in @ 10c and then @ 50c...

Last was only whales...

So now there is no liquidity and whales just holding to dump in profits.

There are many requests for ideas on distribution after over 5 years of development - time is overdue.

ICO -- ROUND 3 --

I would say the best method is to time stamp from the end of this month..

Scrape every forum post member on this thread with a post count of over 20.

Private message them a one time use code, to send up to 5btc to a bitcoin address with a return Sky address for the coins.

Out of those who respond they are already vetted to be very interested in this project.

It gives all the past inquiries the answer to their problem of joining the ICO and distributes nicely across interested parties.

Set the price of Skycoin @ $1.. So all past buyers have made between 2x and 10x. Then we have liquidity....

That places Sky @ 100,000,000 million dollars and then let the market take it higher.

Set the bots to buy if it goes under .80c...

It seems very easy and everyone wins.

Devs get a minimum $100,000,000 coin with still 70% plus in their possession.

Early investors get good returns and liquidity to allow the price to increase with more participants.

Everyone who feels like they missed out on this coin gets their chance... As they were also the early birds in forum participation.

How does this seem?

Also all participants in this new ICO are required to change their forum signature to one created by skycoin - that would be great for advertising and members happy to do so as they are now ICO Skycoin investors...



Good post, lots of good suggestions to fix distro problem this coin has.

Having huge amount of undistributed coins for this long will kill skycoin, which would be a terrible outcome.

We are suppose to do something like this.

We hired two people, two separate times, to gather up the bitcoin talk thread people and PM them codes. And each time, they never did it. So it just fell through.

We are probably going to try to do it again. It is more complicated now, because the coin is trading now.

We are also trying to put together a bounty program.

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July 02, 2017, 08:22:28 PM
 #3076

Is there a listing planned on a big major echange?
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July 02, 2017, 08:39:43 PM
 #3077

I know that there are a lot of silent guys like me wanting to get in, but are weary because of the extremely large number of uncirculated coins held by the devs.

Before we invest, we want to see some BIG changes in the Skycoin Supply

The price has been doubling every 40 days, for how many years now...

If you are going to buy, keep waiting for it to double another twenty times.

We distribute the coins at the minimum rate, so that there is an order book and so people can buy them. If the liquidity freezes up and people cannot buy, then sometimes we "inject more liquidity", but not more than needed.

The market is clearing and volume is healthy for this point, so we can ignore the market completely and go back to development and getting the big stuff launched. I stopped looking at the ticker at all. I only check it once a week.

We also tried to sell to only people with a long term time preference and to scare off speculators.

We also tried to distribute the coin over the largest number of people possible, with caps of 10 BTC.

We also tried to ensure that contributors received coins.

And we tried to ensure ownership among people with development and media assets, or who can otherwise assist in the endeavor.



There is a dillution/inflation cap
- 5% of coin in circulations means max of 20x max dilution ceiling
- 10% of coins in circulation means max of 10x max dilution ceiling
- 20% of coins in circulation means max of 5x max dilution ceiling
- 25% of coins in circulation means max of 4x max dilution ceiling

- I think we will reach the 20% to 30% distribution benchmark by next year.
- 10% of distribution will be to nodes for Skywire and BBS and building out community/infrastructure and driving adaption
- then distribution will probably be around 5% per year for 14 years. It will probably be time locked in code. Meaning max dilution per year will be less than 25% per year (0.5 / 0.20, assuming 20% distribution total and a maximum distribution of 5% per year; but in reality, less than that).

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July 02, 2017, 08:58:27 PM
 #3078

Can i ask what portion of the Skycoins is reserved for your angel round investment by the IT Group?

http://www.itr.cn/

"C2CX was launched with the aid of an angel round investment by the IT Group. The IT Group is one of China’s leading IT service providers with offices in Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Chengdu."

-----------------------
Did 'IT Resources' only provide capital or is also the staff and management involved in Skycoin?

And again same questions what portion of skycoins is reserved for C2CX and are they the same staff and management?

https://www.c2cx.com/in/about_us


---------------------------------------------
"C2CX is targeted towards traders and entities seeking to digitize their src/assets by using blockchain technology,making them both easily transferable and trackable on the Skyledger."

"Currently C2CX supports trading in bitcoin, ether and ether classic. C2CX is currently in the process of helping to launch skycoin, a digital currency powering the new distributed internet."

---------------------------------------

I hope one day there can be translation on the news page would love to read it..

https://news.c2cx.com/



It will be an interesting race..

Decentralized internet coming out of China and one coming out of Scotland..



Are these statements correct?

Out of one hundred million coins you have released six miliion.

So 6 percent released to the public since 2013?

http://explorer.skycoin.net/blocks

Skycoin is a company along with c2cx.com based in China seed funded by a Chinese IT company.

So at present it is centralized, what is the roadmap to decentralize it?

The devs are a team of anonymous individuals but are the same team as c2cx.

Are you employed by IT resources?

Your distribution rate of the 100 million coins is 0.1 every few months if the price is higher than the last.

Every time you release an ICO only with higher prices the money goes 100% into development or also into debt financing to IT Resources who originally funded the project?

Thanks for your time if you can answer these as i am doing due diligence before i start to invest.

>Are you employed by IT resources?
>Your distribution rate of the 100 million coins is 0.1 every few months if the price is higher than the last.
>Every time you release an ICO only with higher prices the money goes 100% into development or also into debt financing to IT Resources who originally funded the project?

C2CX was funded by ITR group.

The Skycoin developers are not employed by ITR or C2CX. I do not work for ITR.

C2CX did the website for Skycoin.net (but the new website is by someone else).

C2CX also debugged the Skycoin CLI and API for getting the coin launched and traded. Lots of bug tracking work. Also wallet QA.

Skycoin Project does not owe any debt to C2CX/ITR and C2CX/ITR does not have any debt that I know about. The company is completely owned without investors or debt.

>So 6 percent released to the public since 2013?

Yes.

There is a JSON API for seeing the distributed coins and the addresses the undistributed coins are locked in. There should be an "API" page on the explorer.skycoin.net website, documenting the API.

>Decentralized internet coming out of China and one coming out of Scotland

Why does Scotland need internet?

Skycoin has Chinese, Russian, Israelis and Americans. And New Zealand and Ireland.

I cannot even keep track of it.

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July 02, 2017, 10:35:12 PM
 #3079

@skycoin your answers and explanations have been very helpful, thanks. Regarding risc-v, I want to point out that there already exists a risc-v chip in production, no need to simulate on FPGA or fabricate your own silicon.

https://www.sifive.com/products/freedom-e310/

Also there is a university in colombia that has taped out risc-v samples, last thing I had read about it said they are currently seeking partnership for production.

https://www.crowdsupply.com/onchip/open-v

Just mentioning these in case you were unaware.
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July 03, 2017, 08:46:40 AM
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@skycoin your answers and explanations have been very helpful, thanks. Regarding risc-v, I want to point out that there already exists a risc-v chip in production, no need to simulate on FPGA or fabricate your own silicon.

https://www.sifive.com/products/freedom-e310/

Also there is a university in colombia that has taped out risc-v samples, last thing I had read about it said they are currently seeking partnership for production.

https://www.crowdsupply.com/onchip/open-v

Just mentioning these in case you were unaware.

Yes.

We were going to do hardware and antenna development at the start, but someone else is doing all the components we need, so we found out that if we just wait a few years and do nothing, that the hardware would appear.

So then we started to focus on just the software. The software and ecosystem is the difficult part while the hardware is continuously improving.

>Running at 320+ MHz, the FE310 is among the fastest microcontrollers in the market

This is a microcontroller, not a full CPU, so it can do signing of transactions, but it cannot run linux. We need 2 or 3 Ghz chips and a modern process, where as this is only 300 Mhz.

These chips would be suitable for a hardware wallet. Is there a price point per unit?


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