[Guide] Dogie's Comprehensive Manufacturer Trustworthiness Guide [1st Feb 2016]

[dogie]

how come using other companies chips drops the trustworthiness score?

I dont see how RM using AM chips should make them less trustworthy

Dropping $1-5M in chip orders makes it much less likely they're going up to do a runner on your order as the investment required is so much more substantial than buying in. If I'm an integrator, I can buy third party chips with as little as $3000. With $3000 I can build, test and offer working miners which is a significantly smaller 'investment' I was to reap a scam.

The huge investment of designing and fabricating one's own chip is therefore rewarded.

[1714002959]

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[1714002959]

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[dogie]

Bitmine has a way too high a score. Refunds, communication and ethics should all be 1/BFL. They owe customers hundreds of thousands if not millions and haven't paid a single refund in months. They answer maybe 1 out of 10 emails and every reply is some copy/paste BS. They built their own mining farm in Iceland using customer money they were supposed to pay back ages ago. They are definitely scammers, no doubt about it.

I need specific examples. They already have significant penalties on communication and refunds, I need evidence that they are specifically doing underhand things regarding refunds to lower their score further. They already have a penalty for running a commercial farm.

I can't just set all their scores to 1 because you don't like them, its not how it works.

[Squeaker]

Let's reserve judgement until we've had a chance to see what they've done, rather than on what they said they were going to do.

=squeak=

[Inaba]

I can't just set all their scores to 1 because you don't like them, its not how it works.

Are you serious?  That's exactly how it works.  Lets see here:

BFL:

Delivered miners?  Few ... I mean, it's not like BFL hasen't delivered over 50k miners or anything.  I guess anyone who's delivered less than 50k miners has delivered "few."  Oh wait... that doesn't jive with the rest of your chart.
Uses preorders?   Yes ... O Rly? BFL Hasn't taken preorders in months. Additionally we were and are selling off the shelf miners from the 65nm generation.
Refund Issues?   BFL has been issuing refunds to anyone and everyone who asks for them prior to delivery of their order for awhile now. Prior to that, any order that was over 6 months old was refundable in full.
Communication? We are more open about our process and timeline than just about anyone else in the industry.
Ethics: You've created a special category with our name because you don't like us, plain and simple.

So what's this BS about "I can't just set all their scores to 1 because you don't like them" again?  That's all your guide is, there's nothing objective about it. You set scores arbitrarily based off of zero facts or figures.  It's all about your flawed, biased opinion.  At least Bickdullski admits his guide is opinionated and biased.   

But by all means, carry on.  I just wanted to laugh at your knee slapper of a quote and point out your incredible hypocrisy.

[Bicknellski]

What a f-ing thief you are Inaba.

Give back the millions you stole.

BFL's rating is way too high considering what you have consistently failed to deliver time and time again.

Let us be clear no one should ever buy a BFL chip, BFL miner or use your mining pool / cloud hashing services. It is time the community put an end to BFL by simply not buying your brand of bullshit ever again. How long before the next bullshit product? 2 Weeks?

[Inaba]

How's that BPM... I mean Wasp... I mean.. whatever sham product you are hawk now treating you?  Got that product out yet?  No?  Aww...  Yet another failure for Bickdullski.  That makes you what... 0 for how many?  You have a 100% failure rate and you want to tell other people how to run a business?  Please...  Your entire life is one failure after another.

Failure to deliver is what you do.  BFL has delivered everything ordered.  It may be late, but at least they deliver.  Unlike you.

[Bicknellski]

You are sack shit pure and simple.

There is no one in this community, bar the people you pay to lie in these forums, who would believe anything you say.

Walk away loser it is over for you and BFL. If anything the rating you get here is overly generous.


Going to come beg to get on the dais again like in HK? That was simply you at your most desperate and that is all you are doing here now cowboy... begging for attention. You do know people laugh when they hear BFL? Right you get that right? You are the joke.

[Squeaker]

As much as I hesitate to agree with Inaba, he does have a point...

When I was first going through the list, and saw that you were using BFL as one of your rating points, any thought about objectivity about this list went out the window.

Keeping the list is an important thing for people to be able to compare how a company has performed, but only if it is objective.

It appears that the maintainer/administrator of the list has a personal axe to grind and is using the list to do it with, and sorry, but that gives your list as a whole, a lower ethics rating than you probably want it to have.

There is no question that BFL has earned itself a lot of bad karma with the community in the past, but the way the list digs specifically at BFL, it makes it appear that no matter what BFL does to make things right and improve their image, they will never be able to raise their reputation as far as the list is concerned.

Guys... your list suffers by doing this. Be objective.

=squeak=

[Bicknellski]

As much as I hesitate to agree with Inaba, he does have a point...

When I was first going through the list, and saw that you were using BFL as one of your rating points, any thought about objectivity about this list went out the window.

Keeping the list is an important thing for people to be able to compare how a company has performed, but only if it is objective.

It appears that the maintainer/administrator of the list has a personal axe to grind and is using the list to do it with, and sorry, but that gives your list as a whole, a lower ethics rating than you probably want it to have.

There is no question that BFL has earned itself a lot of bad karma with the community in the past, but the way the list digs specifically at BFL, it makes it appear that no matter what BFL does to make things right and improve their image, they will never be able to raise their reputation as far as the list is concerned.

Guys... your list suffers by doing this. Be objective.

=squeak=

If anything it points to the limitations of the system in that it gives BFL a higher rating that it deserves given the millions they have stolen from people. Let us not forget that fact.

There is nothing in what BFL stands for as a company that would warrant a positive number on any scale or system. They are an abject failure as a company and to agree with Inaba with regards to giving BFL a "fair" shake? Pardon me but where was that fair shake for their customers the past 2 years? Seriously... when do customers get the benefit of proper and timely refunds, honest specifications and a company that rectifies their customers problems. If that is the scale we use then BFL gets a failing grade on all accounts. This is just funny that anyone would argue that BFL needs to be given the same scale to measure them on. At this point their failures should remove them from any scale and a big red warning label applied DO NOT BUY FROM BFL EVER is all that needs to be said. Right? I think everyone except Inaba will agree with that assessment.

[Squeaker]

If anything it points to the limitations of the system in that it gives BFL a higher rating that it deserves given the millions they have stolen from people. Let us not forget that fact.

There is nothing in what BFL stands for as a company that would warrant a positive number on any scale or system. They are abject failures as a  company.

I don't give a damn about the rating itself... if BFL earned a poor rating then give them a poor rating...

What I'm talking about is this:

Rating System
Position in the list signifies trustworthiness, the higher the better. A perfect score is 100 and the worst possible score is 10. Criteria includes the use of preorders, prompt delivery, the investment of custom chips, hardware and refund issues, communication ability, ethical behaviour and company size.
   90+ = AAA tier firm
   80+ = A tier firm
   70+ = B tier firm, solid company but can improve practises
   50+ = C tier firm, issues to be resolved
   30+ = D tier firm, significant issues or problems
   30-  = BFL tier

No amount of improvement in their service, is going to matter to you guys, cuz you made it personal. You're no longer objective, and you're just going to keep on bashing BFL no matter what, solely because they're BFL and you got your crusade that takes precedence.

I have my own issues with BFL, but that doesn't stop me from being objective, and the maintainers of this list should have the personal integrity to be objective too, or they're no better than the level of ethics they accuse BFL of, themselves.

=squeak=

[Bicknellski]

Dude.

Bottomline.

Would you recommend ANYONE buy from BFL?

If you do then you are seriously not really helping anyone in this community.

Cut the crap let us just get to the point.

BFL has for the past 2 years or more lied and stolen from members of the community. There is no scale that Dogie can build that would be fair to BFL unless it was simply a DO NOT BUY WARNING on them. They do not even belong in the same class as the companies that actually ship to customers to the specifications and dates that they give. They are basically a scam nothing more or less than that along with about 40% or more of all fabricators. Spin the numbers how you like there are only a handful of choices and you need not debate that.

... Inaba should be ignored and given his lies and threats to people in this community he doesn't even deserve mention nor does BFL.

Sorry for posting here but Inaba and BFL should be dropped from any list that gives them any quarter that could be interpreted as positive.

Monarch? Late? Still not shipped? Please this is a joke. How many times does BFL get a chance to do this again?

They have proven time and time again to be one of the LEAST trustworthy companies in mining. There really is no debate on their next product release right? It would be late. It would be mined by others before it is shipped. It would be an enormous blindspot for anyone to purchase anything from them to help perpetuate that company.

... no one seems to fighting for those who lost a lot of money when they play games with rating systems like this. There is only one recommendation based on the evidence. DO NOT BUY FROM BFL EVER.

[Inaba]

Grind that axe, man!  Grind it!

[Bicknellski]

Anyone out there want to recommend BFL?

Anyone?

Thought not.

No one should be giving Inaba or BFL any slack. There is nothing in their pattern of business that is redeemable at this juncture. It is clear they are crap and buying anything from them means nothing more than waiting for a refund or 12 months for a product that is way overpriced.

How does that jive with a 33%. Please. Just make it simple. Do not buy from BFL ever. No one gets hurt. No one loses money again.

[Squeaker]

You've let it get personal, Bicknellski...

You've turned rabid, frothing at the mouth at anything BFL does, any objectivity you may have is out the window.

It isn't about whether I would recommend BFL or not. I was one of the pre-orders, who ended up feeling let down when I finally got my kit over a year later, and ended up taking a loss in the end.

Those are the breaks in mining. I'm not their friend, or advocate. This has nothing to do with how I personally feel about them. This is about the objectivity and integrity of the list, and its perceived anti-BFL bias in the rating system itself.

Change BFL to another company which I have had no business with, and I would still feel the same way... in fact, I would probably feel even stronger since I wouldn't have the personal animus with the other company that I have with BFL...

... but this isn't about my personal feelings about BFL, but about the integrity and objectivity of the list... and I don't trust it, as they made it personal, and not objective.

Understand?

=squeak=

[Bicknellski]

You've let it get personal, Bicknellski...

You've turned rabid, frothing at the mouth at anything BFL does, any objectivity you may have is out the window.

It isn't about whether I would recommend BFL or not. I was one of the pre-orders, who ended up feeling let down when I finally got my kit over a year later, and ended up taking a loss in the end.

Those are the breaks in mining. I'm not their friend, or advocate. This has nothing to do with how I personally feel about them. This is about the objectivity and integrity of the list, and its perceived anti-BFL bias in the rating system itself.

Change BFL to another company which I have had no business with, and I would still feel the same way... in fact, I would probably feel even stronger since I wouldn't have the personal animus with the other company that I have with BFL...

... but this isn't about my personal feelings about BFL, but about the integrity and objectivity of the list... and I don't trust it, as they made it personal, and not objective.

Understand?

=squeak=

It isn't personal.


It is business.

Who would you buy from?

Bitmaintech or BFL?

Simple Bitmaintech everytime.

There is no debate.

This isn't personal it is simple consumer advocacy.

If you want to get screwed buy BFL.
If you want to get something in 3 days buy Bitmaintech.


Am I lying?

No.

Is it personal.

No.

Are BFL a bunch of lying sacks of shit?

Not really debatable if you have read what others have posted about them for the past 2 years. There is evidence right here in the forums go read it.

Seriously what is the point of even entertaining the notion of buying from BFL when you have 4 or 5 alternatives all shipping in reasonable time factors to specifications at half the price or lower?

Are you serious?

Come on let us be brutally honest.

There is no one right now that would put money on a Monarch over anything that Bitmaintech puts out right now.

[Squeaker]

It isn't personal.


It is business.

Who would you buy from?

Bitmaintech or BFL?

Simple Bitmaintech everytime.

There is no debate.

This isn't personal it is simple consumer advocacy.

If you want to get screwed buy BFL.
If you want to get something in 3 days buy Bitmaintech.


Am I lying?

Your recent postings, betray your "it isn't personal" claim.

=squeak=

[Bicknellski]

It isn't personal.


It is business.

Who would you buy from?

Bitmaintech or BFL?

Simple Bitmaintech everytime.

There is no debate.

This isn't personal it is simple consumer advocacy.

If you want to get screwed buy BFL.
If you want to get something in 3 days buy Bitmaintech.


Am I lying?

Your recent postings, betray your "it isn't personal" claim.

=squeak=

Are you answering the question?

BFL vs Bitmaintech

Answer

Bitmain...

You don't have to be PERSONAL to make a simple smart choice.

Right?

Has nothing to do with the fact that BFL lies and fails miserably to deliver every time it builds something. That is fact not emotion or personal. It is the truth.

Seriously would you buy BFL?

No you wouldn't that is just smart.

Why you need to even put a number on BFL at this point seems to cause more problems.

Simply relegate them to the DO NOT BUY FROM section as there are many other reputable places to buy from. Problem solved. Less work. No need to bother with them given they can't produce anything viable. No one is buying a Monarch are they?

[Finnminer]

I need specific examples. They already have significant penalties on communication and refunds, I need evidence that they are specifically doing underhand things regarding refunds to lower their score further. They already have a penalty for running a commercial farm.

What kind of proof do you need? bitminerefund.com lists over $400k of confirmed unpaid refunds. 6 months after I submitted the refund request form they still haven't paid me a single cent of the $5000 they owe me.  AFAIK no refunds have been paid in months. Yet they built a mining farm in Iceland. With money they owe their customers. I have personally sent around 10 emails in the last few weeks and got 2 replies, both telling me that I could convert the refund they owe me to mining contracts before August 15th. After 8/15 they completely stopped responding to any of my emails.

I'm sure there are dozens of similar stories if you ask in the official Bitmine thread.

[Squeaker]

Then put them in the "do not buy from" section if that's where you feel they should be...

but don't use them as part of the scale you use to rate the companies.

They're hardly the first company to over-promise and under-deliver.
They're hardly the first people who are their own worst enemy when it comes to PR.

They have had plenty of opportunity to learn from their mistakes early on, even tho it doesn't seem that they have learned as much as they could have.

All valid arguments, which I share.

But you continue to make my comments here, about BFL itself, when my comments are solely about the list.

I don't give a fuck about BFL or Inaba... (and Inaba, you guys seriously need to get someone who's only responsibility is running the business itself and the PR, so the rest of you guys can focus on the tech and production, IMHO, and stop fanning the flames... you're not helping yourselves in that respect.)

The maintainers of the list, should take the integrity of the list seriously, and be more objective, and less personal.

=squeak=

[jimmothy]

Delivered miners?  Few ... I mean, it's not like BFL hasen't delivered over 50k miners or anything.  I guess anyone who's delivered less than 50k miners has delivered "few."  Oh wait... that doesn't jive with the rest of your chart.

I think dogie should change this category to "undelivered miners". Yes, you have delivered a ton of vaporware to senile old folks and people learning how to use the internet but ignoring the massive backlog of monarchs would be dishonest.

Uses preorders?   Yes ... O Rly? BFL Hasn't taken preorders in months. Additionally we were and are selling off the shelf miners from the 65nm generation.

Are you trying to deny the fact that you take preorders? Is the sky not blue?

When you start shipping current gen hardware from stock I agree the rating should be changed but it should always be noted that BFL is never to be trusted with preorders.

Refund Issues?   BFL has been issuing refunds to anyone and everyone who asks for them prior to delivery of their order for awhile now. Prior to that, any order that was over 6 months old was refundable in full.
Communication? We are more open about our process and timeline than just about anyone else in the industry.

Have to agree on these two. Refunding/communication is about the only thing BFL is doing right.

Ethics: You've created a special category with our name because you don't like us, plain and simple.

It's not because dogie specifically doesn't like you.

He's created it based on the verb "BFL" which means to completely fuck over. source: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=BFL

You didn't earn possibly the most negative trust ratings on the forum because of your great ethics.