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Author Topic: [Guide] Dogie's Comprehensive Manufacturer Trustworthiness Guide [1st Feb 2016]  (Read 130993 times)
Inaba
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October 06, 2014, 03:35:28 AM
 #721

Not only have I told you that is a false statement, the Internet Archive would seem to disagree with you as well. That would make you a liar.  You wouldn't be posting false information to make yourself feel better about things, would you?  No...

The first time that page was updated, the August Tapeout verbiage was removed.

As I said, numerous edits were made to that page, while Big Fat Lies were left in place. Here's just one example.

Sep 1, 2014

https://web.archive.org/web/20140901161740/http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/

Quote
The bottom line is that BFL is the only 28nm chip manufacturer on its 2nd generation ASIC.

Bitmain released their 2nd 28nm chip in July. Since I don't have the exact dates of the Monarch page updates, I'll just post 2 more that prove edits were made to that page after Bitmain released their 2nd chip.

In Aug the old stats were there: https://web.archive.org/web/20140824162506/http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/
In Sep the new stats were there: https://web.archive.org/web/20140901161740/http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/

Conclusion. I win. You lose.

Good work Sherlock Holmes. You used shit from a year AFTER the page in question.  It's 2014 NOW you idiot. We're talking about 2013.  Try to keep up. The sad part is, I know you try your hardest to keep up, but you just can't quite ever figure out what's going on around you.  I bet you are amazing to watch in real life, stumbling and bumbling your way through your daily routines.



If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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October 06, 2014, 04:18:47 AM
 #722

Good work Sherlock Holmes. You used shit from a year AFTER the page in question.  It's 2014 NOW you idiot. We're talking about 2013.  Try to keep up. The sad part is, I know you try your hardest to keep up, but you just can't quite ever figure out what's going on around you.  I bet you are amazing to watch in real life, stumbling and bumbling your way through your daily routines.
I bet you're fun at parties....
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October 06, 2014, 04:29:12 AM
 #723

Good work Sherlock Holmes. You used shit from a year AFTER the page in question.  It's 2014 NOW you idiot. We're talking about 2013.

LOL, you are so insane. You latch on to some little detail and fail to see the whole picture. We're talking about 2013 and 2014. It's not just about a "tapeout" reference. It's about lots more than that. How BFL leaves invalid information in place as a marketing tool. Big Fat Lies is the cornerstone to your business plan. It always has been. And as long as crooked people like you, Sonny, Nasser, etc are in charge, it'll stay that way.

Buy & Hold
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October 06, 2014, 05:19:04 AM
 #724

Good work Sherlock Holmes. You used shit from a year AFTER the page in question.  It's 2014 NOW you idiot. We're talking about 2013.

LOL, you are so insane. You latch on to some little detail and fail to see the whole picture. We're talking about 2013 and 2014. It's not just about a "tapeout" reference. It's about lots more than that. How BFL leaves invalid information in place as a marketing tool. Big Fat Lies is the cornerstone to your business plan. It always has been. And as long as crooked people like you, Sonny, Nasser, etc are in charge, it'll stay that way.

I swear I don't understand how you're able to operate a computer.  We are not "talking about 2013 and 2014."  Are you that stupid?

We were talking about that page and you decided to chime in with your stupidity, and then you get all butthurt when you are proven wrong and then go on a rant about how you're talking about other stuff. Here, let me quote the thread, so you might (just might) be able to follow along with the adults:

What is he talking about here?

If you check the Wayback Machine 6 weeks later, they were still claiming that August 2013 tapeout:
https://web.archive.org/web/20131219192442/http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/

So the shipping dates were not changed at all any time close to that conversation.

Or am I missing something?

Oops!  He's talking about the http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/ page, as evidenced by the fact that he linked to it in his post.

And I respond:

It was true at the time the advertisement was made,  which was the point of the accusations made which I was responding to. Don't try to play semantic games to make your false statements appear to be true (oddly enough Dogie appears to be the rational one in this case... Mind blown).

Dick Trickle there was asking about false advertising and I was responding. We did absolutely believe we would tape out in August when that ad copy was created.

Oh my, I was responding about that page.

Here comes Mr. Derp, I mean Syke, trying to be part of a conversation he doesn't understand:

It was true at the time the advertisement was made,  which was the point of the accusations made which I was responding to.

Numerous edits were made to the page over many months, every time leaving in place "facts" that were no longer true. Since the people editing the page knew they were no longer true statements, and they chose to leave them in place, they became BFL (Big Fat Lies).

So, lets see.  Numerous edits were not made, in fact NO edits were made.  As no edits were made, there could not have been a chance to of "leaving in place facts that were no longer true."  Since the page wasn't edited, there was no "people editing the page knew they were no longer true statements" and by logical deduction, they could not have "chose to leave them in place."

So, you see, either you are so incredibly stupid that you can't read and understand what's written or you lied. Either way, you're an idiot.

If you want to talk about other stuff, don't inject yourself into the middle of a conversation and then expect people to understand what's going on in that little brain of yours.  Face it, you are a liar, you've been proven to be a liar over and over and you just can't handle it.  Sorry man.  You're wrong, once again.  Just like every single time you've tried to challenge me on an issue in the past.  You are a joke, man.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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October 06, 2014, 05:44:33 AM
 #725

So, lets see.  Numerous edits were not made, in fact NO edits were made.  As no edits were made, there could not have been a chance to of "leaving in place facts that were no longer true."  Since the page wasn't edited, there was no "people editing the page knew they were no longer true statements" and by logical deduction, they could not have "chose to leave them in place."

I'm talking about other quotes on the Monarch page that were left in place even when they were no longer true. I showed one example (there are many). Why don't you address that issue instead of avoiding it? Let's start with the claim "BFL is the only 28nm chip manufacturer on its 2nd generation ASIC." Why was that quote left in place during edits even when it was no longer true?

Buy & Hold
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October 06, 2014, 05:45:27 AM
 #726

Your cognitive dissonance is truly amazing.

The Wayback machine - https://web.archive.org/web/20131219192442/http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/ - clearly indicates that BFL, through your website, your primary marketing channel, was still advertising the fiction that tapeout had occurred in August 2013, all the way up to the end of 2013. The date of this capture is December 19th.

If you click "Pre-Order Now" on that page, it takes you to December 7th, 2013, which contains more lies about your projected shipping schedule: https://web.archive.org/web/20131207022652/https://products.butterflylabs.com/600-gh-bitcoin-mining-card.html
In that capture, dated December 7th, BFL still claimed - and I quote:
Quote
we feel our timeline to begin shipments towards the end of the year is solid.  Orders are shipped in order date priority so any order placed now should be expected to be delivered in February.

Contrast that with the Skype chat log found on a BFL computer by the FTC (thanks to Gleb for compiling this):

Quote
[11/6/2013 11:09:58 AM] Josh Zerlan: Except, we don't even know if we've taped out
yet :p

Quote
[11/6/2013 11:19:29 AM] Josh Zerlan: Honestly, if we haven't even taped out at this
point, I dont' see us shipping a product until the very end of January at the
earliest, more like middle of February.

Quote
[11/12/2013 1:01:19 PM] Josh Zerlan: Instead of giving them false promises for
November when we didn't even tape out until November.
[11/12/2013 1:01:57 PM] Sonny: Clearly when we laid out that timeline, we fully
expected tapeout sooner than November.
[11/12/2013 1:02:11 PM] Sonny: You, me - chronicle tech etc.
[11/12/2013 1:02:14 PM] Josh Zerlan: No, I knew we would not be taping out until
late October at the earliest.

Quote
[11/12/2013 1:11:26 PM] Nasser Ghoseiri: We can announce that we've taped out on
Friday
[11/12/2013 1:11:35 PM] Nasser Ghoseiri: and let everyone know how it goes
[11/12/2013 1:11:55 PM] Josh Zerlan: No, I don't thin kwe should mention when we
taped out. We were suppose to tape out in September. Telling them we taped out
last week is suicide.

Quote
[11/26/2013 11:15:19 AM] Josh Zerlan: We still haven't even taped out 28nm, though.
We still have 16 and then by the time that's out, we're looking at 12 or 10.

Call me an idiot, but I don't see any way how that can not be construed as misleading, deceptive advertising.

Furthermore, by the evidence of the statements in your own chat log, this deceptive advertising was intended to collect as many pre-orders as you could, to scoop the competition, even though you all knew at the time that your projected timeline was pure wishful thinking.

What truly puzzles me is that you seemed to be the voice of reason in that debate, in stark contrast to your complete rejection of the clear evidence now.
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October 06, 2014, 05:45:52 AM
 #727

So, lets see.  Numerous edits were not made, in fact NO edits were made.  As no edits were made, there could not have been a chance to of "leaving in place facts that were no longer true."  Since the page wasn't edited, there was no "people editing the page knew they were no longer true statements" and by logical deduction, they could not have "chose to leave them in place."

I'm talking about other quotes on the Monarch page that were left in place even when they were no longer true. I showed one example (there are many). Why don't you address that issue instead of avoiding it? Let's start with the claim "BFL is the only 28nm chip manufacturer on its 2nd generation ASIC." Why was that quote left in place during edits even when it was no longer true?

Just admit you were wrong or that you lied to try and make your point and you got caught (again) and we can move on.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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October 06, 2014, 05:46:58 AM
 #728

So, lets see.  Numerous edits were not made, in fact NO edits were made.  As no edits were made, there could not have been a chance to of "leaving in place facts that were no longer true."  Since the page wasn't edited, there was no "people editing the page knew they were no longer true statements" and by logical deduction, they could not have "chose to leave them in place."

I'm talking about other quotes on the Monarch page that were left in place even when they were no longer true. I showed one example (there are many). Why don't you address that issue instead of avoiding it? Let's start with the claim "BFL is the only 28nm chip manufacturer on its 2nd generation ASIC." Why was that quote left in place during edits even when it was no longer true?

Just admit you were wrong or that you lied to try and make your point and you got caught (again) and we can move on.

You first.
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October 06, 2014, 05:49:34 AM
 #729

Your cognitive dissonance is truly amazing.

The Wayback machine - https://web.archive.org/web/20131219192442/http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/ - clearly indicates that BFL, through your website, your primary marketing channel, was still advertising the fiction that tapeout had occurred in August 2013, all the way up to the end of 2013. The date of this capture is December 19th.

If you click "Pre-Order Now" on that page, it takes you to December 7th, 2013, which contains more lies about your projected shipping schedule: https://web.archive.org/web/20131207022652/https://products.butterflylabs.com/600-gh-bitcoin-mining-card.html
In that capture, dated December 7th, BFL still claimed - and I quote:
Quote
we feel our timeline to begin shipments towards the end of the year is solid.  Orders are shipped in order date priority so any order placed now should be expected to be delivered in February.

Contrast that with the Skype chat log found on a BFL computer by the FTC (thanks to Gleb for compiling this):

Quote
[11/6/2013 11:09:58 AM] Josh Zerlan: Except, we don't even know if we've taped out
yet :p

Quote
[11/6/2013 11:19:29 AM] Josh Zerlan: Honestly, if we haven't even taped out at this
point, I dont' see us shipping a product until the very end of January at the
earliest, more like middle of February.

Quote
[11/12/2013 1:01:19 PM] Josh Zerlan: Instead of giving them false promises for
November when we didn't even tape out until November.
[11/12/2013 1:01:57 PM] Sonny: Clearly when we laid out that timeline, we fully
expected tapeout sooner than November.
[11/12/2013 1:02:11 PM] Sonny: You, me - chronicle tech etc.
[11/12/2013 1:02:14 PM] Josh Zerlan: No, I knew we would not be taping out until
late October at the earliest.

Quote
[11/12/2013 1:11:26 PM] Nasser Ghoseiri: We can announce that we've taped out on
Friday
[11/12/2013 1:11:35 PM] Nasser Ghoseiri: and let everyone know how it goes
[11/12/2013 1:11:55 PM] Josh Zerlan: No, I don't thin kwe should mention when we
taped out. We were suppose to tape out in September. Telling them we taped out
last week is suicide.

Quote
[11/26/2013 11:15:19 AM] Josh Zerlan: We still haven't even taped out 28nm, though.
We still have 16 and then by the time that's out, we're looking at 12 or 10.

Call me an idiot, but I don't see any way how that can not be construed as misleading, deceptive advertising.

Furthermore, by the evidence of the statements in your own chat log, this deceptive advertising was intended to collect as many pre-orders as you could, to scoop the competition, even though you all knew at the time that your projected timeline was pure wishful thinking.

What truly puzzles me is that you seemed to be the voice of reason in that debate, in stark contrast to your complete rejection of the clear evidence now.

If you insist:  You are an idiot. Happy now?

As I've explained now, how many times?  You go count, because it's more than I care to contemplate... not sure why I have to keep explaining the same thing over and over, but anyway... that page was not updated for months. It was true at the time of creation and was not updated or even looked at. It was old advertising material, so why would we go back and revisit it?  When you clicked the pre-order now button, you were taken to the actual order page with the updated information.  Do you dumb asses really not understand how advertising works?  Just because something is not true NOW doesn't mean wasn't true in the PAST.  When you create something in the past, if you don't go back and update it, it DOESN'T GET CHANGED.  I thought this was a self-evident fact of life, but apparently you mouth breathers can't even grasp this simple concept of the arrow of time and cause and effect.

Absolutely amazing. Talk about cognitive dissonance, wow.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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October 06, 2014, 05:49:54 AM
 #730

Just admit you were wrong or that you lied to try and make your point and you got caught (again) and we can move on.

I never mentioned the tape-out issue. Now, on to the "28nm manufacturer" issue. Your answer?

Buy & Hold
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October 06, 2014, 05:50:31 AM
 #731

So, lets see.  Numerous edits were not made, in fact NO edits were made.  As no edits were made, there could not have been a chance to of "leaving in place facts that were no longer true."  Since the page wasn't edited, there was no "people editing the page knew they were no longer true statements" and by logical deduction, they could not have "chose to leave them in place."

I'm talking about other quotes on the Monarch page that were left in place even when they were no longer true. I showed one example (there are many). Why don't you address that issue instead of avoiding it? Let's start with the claim "BFL is the only 28nm chip manufacturer on its 2nd generation ASIC." Why was that quote left in place during edits even when it was no longer true?

Just admit you were wrong or that you lied to try and make your point and you got caught (again) and we can move on.

You first.

Why would I do that?  I am not wrong. I showed you that I was not wrong. I showed you that you were wrong (or I am betting you just lied, because that's what you do).  So do tell, why would I admit I was wrong when that is simply not the case?

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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October 06, 2014, 05:59:17 AM
 #732

So, lets see.  Numerous edits were not made, in fact NO edits were made.  As no edits were made, there could not have been a chance to of "leaving in place facts that were no longer true."  Since the page wasn't edited, there was no "people editing the page knew they were no longer true statements" and by logical deduction, they could not have "chose to leave them in place."

I'm talking about other quotes on the Monarch page that were left in place even when they were no longer true. I showed one example (there are many). Why don't you address that issue instead of avoiding it? Let's start with the claim "BFL is the only 28nm chip manufacturer on its 2nd generation ASIC." Why was that quote left in place during edits even when it was no longer true?

Just admit you were wrong or that you lied to try and make your point and you got caught (again) and we can move on.

You first.

Why would I do that?  I am not wrong. I showed you that I was not wrong. I showed you that you were wrong (or I am betting you just lied, because that's what you do).  So do tell, why would I admit I was wrong when that is simply not the case?

If you really don't understand why the deceptive information on your website is such a big deal, then there is no reasoning with you. This isn't just a simple failure of omission. It's willful deception.

You were updating that website regularly, as the multiple snapshots on the Wayback Machine show. You could have - and indeed were required to - remove the misleading, incorrect information at any time. But instead you chose to maintain the fiction - publicly - that your tapeout occurred in August. As the Skype chat logs show, you were aware of that fact personally and reminded the other principals at BFL of it on a regular basis.

Those are the lies I'm talking about. Those are the lies that caused the FTC to shut you down.
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October 06, 2014, 06:35:00 AM
 #733

Good work Sherlock Holmes. You used shit from a year AFTER the page in question.  It's 2014 NOW you idiot. We're talking about 2013.  Try to keep up. The sad part is, I know you try your hardest to keep up, but you just can't quite ever figure out what's going on around you.  I bet you are amazing to watch in real life, stumbling and bumbling your way through your daily routines.

Hey retard how about you pay your bet? http://www.bitcoindf.org/

H/w Hosting Directory & Reputation - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622998.0
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October 06, 2014, 07:24:50 AM
 #734

Your cognitive dissonance is truly amazing.

The Wayback machine - https://web.archive.org/web/20131219192442/http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/ - clearly indicates that BFL, through your website, your primary marketing channel, was still advertising the fiction that tapeout had occurred in August 2013, all the way up to the end of 2013. The date of this capture is December 19th.

If you click "Pre-Order Now" on that page, it takes you to December 7th, 2013, which contains more lies about your projected shipping schedule: https://web.archive.org/web/20131207022652/https://products.butterflylabs.com/600-gh-bitcoin-mining-card.html
In that capture, dated December 7th, BFL still claimed - and I quote:
Quote
we feel our timeline to begin shipments towards the end of the year is solid.  Orders are shipped in order date priority so any order placed now should be expected to be delivered in February.

Contrast that with the Skype chat log found on a BFL computer by the FTC (thanks to Gleb for compiling this):

Quote
[11/6/2013 11:09:58 AM] Josh Zerlan: Except, we don't even know if we've taped out
yet :p

Quote
[11/6/2013 11:19:29 AM] Josh Zerlan: Honestly, if we haven't even taped out at this
point, I dont' see us shipping a product until the very end of January at the
earliest, more like middle of February.

Quote
[11/12/2013 1:01:19 PM] Josh Zerlan: Instead of giving them false promises for
November when we didn't even tape out until November.
[11/12/2013 1:01:57 PM] Sonny: Clearly when we laid out that timeline, we fully
expected tapeout sooner than November.
[11/12/2013 1:02:11 PM] Sonny: You, me - chronicle tech etc.
[11/12/2013 1:02:14 PM] Josh Zerlan: No, I knew we would not be taping out until
late October at the earliest.

Quote
[11/12/2013 1:11:26 PM] Nasser Ghoseiri: We can announce that we've taped out on
Friday
[11/12/2013 1:11:35 PM] Nasser Ghoseiri: and let everyone know how it goes
[11/12/2013 1:11:55 PM] Josh Zerlan: No, I don't thin kwe should mention when we
taped out. We were suppose to tape out in September. Telling them we taped out
last week is suicide.

Quote
[11/26/2013 11:15:19 AM] Josh Zerlan: We still haven't even taped out 28nm, though.
We still have 16 and then by the time that's out, we're looking at 12 or 10.

Call me an idiot, but I don't see any way how that can not be construed as misleading, deceptive advertising.

Furthermore, by the evidence of the statements in your own chat log, this deceptive advertising was intended to collect as many pre-orders as you could, to scoop the competition, even though you all knew at the time that your projected timeline was pure wishful thinking.

What truly puzzles me is that you seemed to be the voice of reason in that debate, in stark contrast to your complete rejection of the clear evidence now.

If you insist:  You are an idiot. Happy now?

As I've explained now, how many times?  You go count, because it's more than I care to contemplate... not sure why I have to keep explaining the same thing over and over, but anyway... that page was not updated for months. It was true at the time of creation and was not updated or even looked at. It was old advertising material, so why would we go back and revisit it?  When you clicked the pre-order now button, you were taken to the actual order page with the updated information.  Do you dumb asses really not understand how advertising works?  Just because something is not true NOW doesn't mean wasn't true in the PAST.  When you create something in the past, if you don't go back and update it, it DOESN'T GET CHANGED.  I thought this was a self-evident fact of life, but apparently you mouth breathers can't even grasp this simple concept of the arrow of time and cause and effect.

Absolutely amazing. Talk about cognitive dissonance, wow.


Zerlan talking about cognitive dissonance, I'm mind blown.
You need psychiatric treatment urgently.
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October 06, 2014, 10:38:37 AM
 #735

As I've explained now, how many times?  You go count, because it's more than I care to contemplate... not sure why I have to keep explaining the same thing over and over, but anyway... that page was not updated for months. It was true at the time of creation and was not updated or even looked at. It was old advertising material, so why would we go back and revisit it?  When you clicked the pre-order now button, you were taken to the actual order page with the updated information.  

Do you dumb asses really not understand how advertising works?  

Just because something is not true NOW doesn't mean wasn't true in the PAST.  

When you create something in the past, if you don't go back and update it, it DOESN'T GET CHANGED.  

I thought this was a self-evident fact of life, but apparently you mouth breathers can't even grasp this simple concept of the arrow of time and cause and effect.

Absolutely amazing. Talk about cognitive dissonance, wow.

You said it !

*mumbles something about bunker mentality*

Quote
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October 06, 2014, 10:57:52 AM
 #736

Guys, take it down a notch in here. Josh, were you called back in to or are you going to rest up now?

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October 06, 2014, 10:59:42 AM
 #737

 Do you dumb asses really not understand how advertising works?

Your understanding of advertising is obviously soooooooooooooooooooooooo good that you were able to get the attention of the FTC.  Even got a judge to agree to an ex parte TRO that has been extended now LOL.

Yup you guys advertised yourself right out of business hahaha, great job asshole!

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Lassi
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Burn the wings off those bastards.


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October 06, 2014, 11:05:04 AM
 #738

Moderators need to move all Josh's diatribe to BFL Fucked Us Over Again they are not even manufacturing units anymore why is BFL even on the list?

Now it's time for the FTC to put everything Butterfly Labs has done through the magnifying glass and then burn the wings off those bastards.
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October 06, 2014, 11:06:22 AM
Last edit: October 06, 2014, 12:03:30 PM by ElGrandJefe
 #739

Guys, take it down a notch in here.
Sorry, Josh called me an idiot, so I can't leave it at that. He still refuses to admit that BFL was lying about their shipping schedule for the entire second half of 2013 and well into 2014, claiming that the top Monarch page wasn't relevant, and only the regularly updated order page was material. So here we go.

On December 7, the Monarch page clearly stated (the bold is theirs, as you can see by visiting the archived page):
Quote
All manufacturers in this space have experienced some degree of delay with their first generation ASIC.  Every last one of them, so we're reluctant to give a specific delivery date.  However, this is our second generation, so we have much greater clarity on the process and we feel our timeline to begin shipments towards the end of the year is solid. Orders are shipped in order date priority so any order placed now should be expected to be delivered in February.

Wait a minute! That would seem to indicate that they're still on schedule, with shipping of the mythical bullet run units already underway, but new orders would have to wait until February due to the vast backlog. No lies there, right? Especially since the preceding page still said "Tape out August 2013, November/December - Initial Shipping (Sold out)".

The Monarch page was next updated on February 9, 2014 (I've underlined the most relevant part):
Quote
However, this is our second generation, so we have much greater clarity on the process and plan to begin shipments in January 2014.  Orders are shipped in order date priority so any order placed now should be expected to be delivered in March.
Given the alleged timely nature of this information, you might be led to believe that shipping had already begun and if you were fast enough in getting an order in, all that efficient hashing power would be yours by the end of March.

Last but not least, let's take a look at the first appearance of the mighty Imperial Monarch, which - at an amazing 1 TH/s - would strike fear into the hearts of all BFL competitors. On April 3, 2014, the 1 TH/s Monarch page stated:

Quote
However, this is our second generation, so we have much greater clarity on the process and plan to begin shipments in March 2014.  Orders are shipped in order date priority so any order placed now should be expected to be delivered in June.
Oops.

Now do you understand why people are calling BFL - and you - liars, Josh?
PatMan
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October 06, 2014, 11:57:40 AM
 #740

Dogie,

Now that your employer has started shipping the abomination that is the S4 with all it's failings, can we expect a realistic update on your guide?  Wink

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
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