[Guide] Dogie's Comprehensive Manufacturer Trustworthiness Guide [1st Feb 2016]

[jimmothy]

So roadstress, do you think Spondooliestech is actually going to meet their estimated specs this time?

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[DebitMe]

Could you explain what BFL'ing is as far as ethics?  I cannot find anything where BFL has been worse than BA and yet they still have an ethics rating.  Just some clarification here would be helpful.

[jimmothy]

Could you explain what BFL'ing is as far as ethics?  I cannot find anything where BFL has been worse than BA and yet they still have an ethics rating.  Just some clarification here would be helpful.

I agree blackarrow is about as bad as it gets when it comes to ethics.

[DebitMe]

Could you explain what BFL'ing is as far as ethics?  I cannot find anything where BFL has been worse than BA and yet they still have an ethics rating.  Just some clarification here would be helpful.

I agree blackarrow is about as bad as it gets when it comes to ethics.

They have also announced that they are broke (aka bankrupt) and have had a large amount of coins stolen (apparently their security isn't great as they also apparently had their email list stolen). So that should also fit in somewhere.

[jimmothy]

Could you explain what BFL'ing is as far as ethics?  I cannot find anything where BFL has been worse than BA and yet they still have an ethics rating.  Just some clarification here would be helpful.

I agree blackarrow is about as bad as it gets when it comes to ethics.

They have also announced that they are broke (aka bankrupt) and have had a large amount of coins stolen (apparently their security isn't great as they also apparently had their email list stolen). So that should also fit in somewhere.

Source?

[DebitMe]

Could you explain what BFL'ing is as far as ethics?  I cannot find anything where BFL has been worse than BA and yet they still have an ethics rating.  Just some clarification here would be helpful.

I agree blackarrow is about as bad as it gets when it comes to ethics.

They have also announced that they are broke (aka bankrupt) and have had a large amount of coins stolen (apparently their security isn't great as they also apparently had their email list stolen). So that should also fit in somewhere.

Source?

It was a post on ecointalk, let me see if I can find where someone copied it about being broke.

About having coins stolen, they made a thread here talking about it and some changes they would like to see to the protocol.  Should be easy enough to find.

[RoadStress]

I agree with dogie on this.. AM was not really a pre order since they had chips in hand. AM just needed new boards and they had a holiday. SP is defently a pre order company...


Now scamalon being rated higher than AM is just silly though.

Please re-read my post. SP-Tech has chips in hand since August. What's the difference between AM and SP-Tech if they both have chips in hand and the product are already developed?

So roadstress, do you think Spondooliestech is actually going to meet their estimated specs this time?

Yes. Do you think that you will see some AM dividends this year?

[jimmothy]

I agree with dogie on this.. AM was not really a pre order since they had chips in hand. AM just needed new boards and they had a holiday. SP is defently a pre order company...


Now scamalon being rated higher than AM is just silly though.

Please re-read my post. SP-Tech has chips in hand since August. What's the difference between AM and SP-Tech if they both have chips in hand and the product are already developed?

So what you are saying is that Guy lied when he said:

The SP20 should give better results then what we published. We'll get the faster ASICs in 2 weeks and revise the spec.

It's only 3 weeks past the date they expected to publish the "fast ASIC" results but I'm sure the delay/silence can only be a good sign.

[RoadStress]

It's only 3 weeks past the date they expected to publish the "fast ASIC" results but I'm sure the delay/silence can only be a good sign.

I know that you haven't missed Guy's reply about this, but I will share it with you one more time:

- Updated SP31, SP35 and SP20 spec will be published on Tuesday or Wednesday next week

Now let's keep this thread on topic and tell me what's the difference between AM's pre-orders and SP-Tech's ones and if they should be on par or not in dogie's guide.

[jimmothy]

Now let's keep this thread on topic and tell me what's the difference between AM's pre-orders and SP-Tech's ones and if they should be on par or not in dogie's guide.

It's been spelled out for you several times already, I'm not sure anyone can simplify it further.

Please just try to learn the difference between built-to-order and preorders.

The SP10 was BTO because they built/tested a prototype and verified the specs before taking orders.

The AM Prisma is also BTO because they built/tested a prototype before taking orders.

SP35/31/20 are all preorders because they use an untested chip and the specs are estimations.

[dogie]

Since August there were no pre-orders. Only batch products with a lead time. We are past half October. That's over 2 months since the SP30s exist on the market. Am I wrong? Even now you can order the SP35 Novermber Batch 1. Where is the pre-order?

You can't make that an arbitrary cutoff when all those September and October SP35s were funded off the back of 1000s of preorders. ST's business model requires preorders and it will until they raise more cash or make more money.

[dogie]

The SP10 was BTO because they built/tested a prototype and verified the specs before taking orders.

I'd disagree on this point in relation to the guide. The SP10 was using known chips, but it was sold with longer lead times than typical batch and preorders for future 'batches' far into the future. Those preorders are what was able to fund the next gen chip orders. It was sort of BTO, but BTO too far into the future to be considered batch.

[RoadStress]

SP35/31/20 are all preorders because they use an untested chip and the specs are estimations.

It's the same chip as in SP30 so it can't be worse. Only better, but I got it now.

The SP10 was BTO because they built/tested a prototype and verified the specs before taking orders.

I'd disagree on this point in relation to the guide. The SP10 was using known chips, but it was sold with longer lead times than typical batch and preorders for future 'batches' far into the future. Those preorders are what was able to fund the next gen chip orders. It was sort of BTO, but BTO too far into the future to be considered batch.

Lol at "far into the future". All SP10s were sold with delivery in maximum 3 weeks. Even less from time to time. Care to share what was the lead time for the AM Prisma miners? I think it's over 2 weeks now and nobody has reported getting any unit up to this point (review units don't count).

[dogie]

Could you explain what BFL'ing is as far as ethics?  I cannot find anything where BFL has been worse than BA and yet they still have an ethics rating.  Just some clarification here would be helpful.

Its to represent that what they pulled with the 65nm delays, mis-selling, making potentially false/misleading claims, potentially misleading statements about tapeout etc, targeting new buyers with insanely old hardware and the repeated 'tradeups' with the second generation delays. Simply put, no other company has come close to what BFL did over the last 18-24 months - as highlighted by the FTC taking over the company. Blackarrow is getting close, but they're not at that level yet and still have an opportunity to fix it.

[drasted]

nobody has reported getting any unit up to this point (review units don't count).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=795477.msg9273242#msg9273242

[jimmothy]

Its to represent that what they pulled with the 65nm delays, mis-selling, making potentially false/misleading claims, potentially misleading statements about tapeout etc, targeting new buyers with insanely old hardware and the repeated 'tradeups' with the second generation delays. Simply put, no other company has come close to what BFL did over the last 18-24 months - as highlighted by the FTC taking over the company. Blackarrow is getting close, but they're not at that level yet and still have an opportunity to fix it.

Blackarrow

- Repeatedly lied about shipping dates.
- Only 30% of hardware shipped 6 months late.
- Promised to be the best $/gh but decided screw it that would cost money.
- Several customers blackmailed/doxed by the company
- Shipping hardware to resellers before customers who ordered earlier
- Denied refunds even though they were promised after they began shipping.
- Compensation completely garbage for the huge delays.
- Heavy censorship of their thread/forum.
- Nearly every customer left feeling ripped off.

Ethics: 5/10

BTCGarden

- No delays
- No problem with RMAs/partial refunds.
- Great customer support which makes sure customers do not feel ripped off.
- MAY have told a lie about their DOA %.

Ethics: 5/10

[dogie]

Its to represent that what they pulled with the 65nm delays, mis-selling, making potentially false/misleading claims, potentially misleading statements about tapeout etc, targeting new buyers with insanely old hardware and the repeated 'tradeups' with the second generation delays. Simply put, no other company has come close to what BFL did over the last 18-24 months - as highlighted by the FTC taking over the company. Blackarrow is getting close, but they're not at that level yet and still have an opportunity to fix it.

Blackarrow

- Repeatedly lied about shipping dates.
- Only 30% of hardware shipped 6 months late.
- Promised to be the best $/gh but decided screw it that would cost money.
- Several customers blackmailed/doxed by the company
- Shipping hardware to resellers before customers who ordered earlier
- Denied refunds even though they were promised after they began shipping.
- Compensation completely garbage for the huge delays.
- Heavy censorship of their thread/forum.
- Nearly every customer left feeling ripped off.

Ethics: 5/10

BTCGarden

- No delays
- No problem with RMAs/partial refunds.
- Great customer support which makes sure customers do not feel ripped off.
- MAY have told a lie about their DOA %.

Ethics: 5/10

You're right in some respects, the ethics category doesn't have much depth. The problem is the more criteria / sub-criteria I add, the more I'll be accused of being biased or gaming the system somehow. By leaving it more rigid it removes that ability for any one person [me] to have too much control - the criteria is the criteria and everything has to fit into them.

The way you're wrong though is BTCGarden: 73, Black Arrow: 35. Not everything fits into the ethics category.

[MrTeal]

Its to represent that what they pulled with the 65nm delays, mis-selling, making potentially false/misleading claims, potentially misleading statements about tapeout etc, targeting new buyers with insanely old hardware and the repeated 'tradeups' with the second generation delays. Simply put, no other company has come close to what BFL did over the last 18-24 months - as highlighted by the FTC taking over the company. Blackarrow is getting close, but they're not at that level yet and still have an opportunity to fix it.

Blackarrow

- Repeatedly lied about shipping dates.
- Only 30% of hardware shipped 6 months late.
- Promised to be the best $/gh but decided screw it that would cost money.
- Several customers blackmailed/doxed by the company
- Shipping hardware to resellers before customers who ordered earlier
- Denied refunds even though they were promised after they began shipping.
- Compensation completely garbage for the huge delays.
- Heavy censorship of their thread/forum.
- Nearly every customer left feeling ripped off.

Ethics: 5/10

Don't forget shipping power supplies that tend to light on fire, which in and of itself isn't necessarily an ethics issue. After that though...
1. Issue a recall, telling people to stop using the dangerous hardware and that they will be contacted about an RMA.
2. Wait one month.
3. Issue a big "Just Kidding" about the recall, tell customers that you'll only replace PSUs that have already gone roman candle on them. Unless there's mechanical damage as well, of course, in which case you'll be charged extra. Until then, just keep a fire extinguisher handy.

[jjdub7]

Woof!

Ethics?
All companies start with 10 points, and lose points for various infractions. The key is as follows:   
   F     = Operates own mining farm = -2
   FF   = Operates own large mining farm = -4
   P     = Evidence of premining on preordered equipment = -2
   BFL = BFL'ing = -9
   B    = Bankrupt = -9
   O    = Other generic unethical behaviour = -5

(included to echo other sentiments)

This scale looks good for a constantly-evolving/improving draft.  Consider another data point re: mining for profit...

Its to represent that what they pulled with the 65nm delays, mis-selling, making potentially false/misleading claims, potentially misleading statements about tapeout etc, targeting new buyers with insanely old hardware and the repeated 'tradeups' with the second generation delays. Simply put, no other company has come close to what BFL did over the last 18-24 months - as highlighted by the FTC taking over the company. Blackarrow is getting close, but they're not at that level yet and still have an opportunity to fix it.

Blackarrow

- Repeatedly lied about shipping dates.
- Only 30% of hardware shipped 6 months late.
- Promised to be the best $/gh but decided screw it that would cost money.
- Several customers blackmailed/doxed by the company
- Shipping hardware to resellers before customers who ordered earlier
- Denied refunds even though they were promised after they began shipping.
- Compensation completely garbage for the huge delays.
- Heavy censorship of their thread/forum.
- Nearly every customer left feeling ripped off.

Ethics: 5/10

BTCGarden

- No delays
- No problem with RMAs/partial refunds.
- Great customer support which makes sure customers do not feel ripped off.
- MAY have told a lie about their DOA %.

Ethics: 5/10

You're right in some respects, the ethics category doesn't have much depth. The problem is the more criteria / sub-criteria I add, the more I'll be accused of being biased or gaming the system somehow. By leaving it more rigid it removes that ability for any one person [me] to have too much control - the criteria is the criteria and everything has to fit into them.

The way you're wrong though is BTCGarden: 73, Black Arrow: 35. Not everything fits into the ethics category.

With regard to ASICMINER, consider that the company is publicly traded and that current operations related to mining power are at the very least dispersed and therefore beneficial to all miners on public pools.

This company's rating has been updated in the Manufacturer Trustworthiness thread.

[This message won't be monitored, discuss your concerns in the thread.]

Dogie, I see that you won't be monitoring this, but I'll ask anyway in case you check back and deem it worth a response.  What would AM have to do in the coming rating cycle to improve back into the 90-95 ratings?  Where were the ratings points lost, and why does AM have a 4/10 for ethics?

Just scroll down and read the change log...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456691.msg5035170#msg5035170

Thanks.  Must've just scrolled right over it without seeing.  The ethics ratings make sense, I guess...no way to know if they're mining with customers' hardware.  No such thing as being too careful after BFL.

... ->

Dogie - However, shouldn't there be a distinction between manufacturers who mine on their own private pools (e.g. KNCminer or BFL with Eclipse MC) and those who distribute their hashrate among the public pools?  Mining in the public pools creates a (perhaps unintentional but still significant) positive externality to benefit all miners by lowering the variance of payouts and reducing their risk.  Can you refine the ethics rubric on your rating scale to reflect this distinction (something like a -1)?  Or do you not consider it to be a differentiating factor?  It would help get the rubric more granular...

thx.  good guide.  should help newbs feel a little safer jumping into mining.  I don't think you can ever really "get" bitcoin without at least trying to mine it and understand the processes behind the blockchain.  keep up the good work man.

-dub

(P.S. still got my r-boxes running)

[dogie]

Dogie - However, shouldn't there be a distinction between manufacturers who mine on their own private pools (e.g. KNCminer or BFL with Eclipse MC) and those who distribute their hashrate among the public pools?  Mining in the public pools creates a (perhaps unintentional but still significant) positive externality to benefit all miners by lowering the variance of payouts and reducing their risk.  Can you refine the ethics rubric on your rating scale to reflect this distinction (something like a -1)?  Or do you not consider it to be a differentiating factor?  It would help get the rubric more granular...

It would be too hard to tell, as with FF which is why I removed it from every company. Its really not worth talking about 1 or two points either, as its a rating out of 100.