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[RandomPleb]

Calling it a scam doesn't actually make it a scam, you're getting ahead of yourself. Unless of course you have some type of time-travel machine in which case I stand corrected.

That being said, 'tests' like this are needed.

[tokyoghetto]

BCX = GOD

[markm]

Is GeistGeld still vulnerable?

How about the other merged mined SHA256 coins?

(In which we might as well include Huntercoin and Mazacoin though I am not yet convinced merged mining those is working, as in I haven't actually found any blocks of either of them yet.)

-MarkM-

[broken_pixel]

BCX = GOD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPET2pZXdeU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf-5RaFnh2U

Do it! I need to see it happen instead of chit, chat, chatter.

[markm]

So all the merged mined SHA256 coins are still vulnerable to timewarp of one kind or another?

If so any fixes available yet so they can all be updated with a fix?

-MarkM-

[markm]

So all the merged mined SHA256 coins are still vulnerable to timewarp of one kind or another?

If so any fixes available yet so they can all be updated with a fix?

-MarkM-

It's a little more complex than just TW any given chain, hash rate plays into it but thanks to KGW, protection by hashrate is somewhat negated. I wouldn't worry about TW exploitation on other merged SHA coins. It's kind of like saying the Bitcoin is susceptible to 51% attack, which it is. It's just that multi petahash rate that's the protection barrier.



~BCX~

Awesome, thanks. I will keep on with my hoarding of all the merged mined SHA256 coins then.

(I would have anyway of course but would also have had to get some fixes in place to protect my investment. As is I will continue to protect my investment by deploying the most efficient ASICs I can get my hands on, starting by filling up my new 400 amp service with miners as soon as the damn electricians and power corp complete the deployment of the 400 amp service...)

-MarkM-

[Canaanite]

As some of you know one of my interest is in testing the security of cryptocoins. Over the past 4 years I have "tested" so many I have lost count but one thing remains true. No matter what the so called improvement is, it always has an exploit.

Kimoto Gravity Well is one such improvement that solves a problem that AUR is having at the moment and that is moving at the speed of death as well purportedly protects against 51%. While KGW does protect somewhat against a 51% attack, it opens up a huge hole in the time warp exploit via the diff adjust first deployed against Geist Geld back in mid 2011 and a modded versions used last year on a few Scrypt coins and SHA coins with great success.

Long story short, KGW opens up a flank where a newly modded Time Warp Exploit can be deployed. I have sandbox tested it on AUR and it seems to do the trick in grand fashion but that is with a small amount of nethash in the sandbox. I need a live chain to test it on. So considering the vast amount of request I have received to take out this 50% premine scam, I thought it would be a good candidate to test on.

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins. In particular, my ol' buddy Kelsey lost a ton last year in GME LOL. Block 5400 or when ever KGW kicks in will be the starting point. This will give all of you enough time to either cold store your AUR or dump them until the chain is fixed, if it can be after the test.


~BCX~

If it was a scam, Balduro would have dumped the premined coins a long time ago. there is actually a large community who believe in this thing.
But I guess the internet is full with assholes like you who try to destroy good things for fun

[markm]

It is also full of assholes who launch coins they cannot secure.

What is Auroracoin's difficulty/hashrate?

-MarkM-

[lasciv]

As some of you know one of my interest is in testing the security of cryptocoins. Over the past 4 years I have "tested" so many I have lost count but one thing remains true. No matter what the so called improvement is, it always has an exploit.

Kimoto Gravity Well is one such improvement that solves a problem that AUR is having at the moment and that is moving at the speed of death as well purportedly protects against 51%. While KGW does protect somewhat against a 51% attack, it opens up a huge hole in the time warp exploit via the diff adjust first deployed against Geist Geld back in mid 2011 and a modded versions used last year on a few Scrypt coins and SHA coins with great success.

Long story short, KGW opens up a flank where a newly modded Time Warp Exploit can be deployed. I have sandbox tested it on AUR and it seems to do the trick in grand fashion but that is with a small amount of nethash in the sandbox. I need a live chain to test it on. So considering the vast amount of request I have received to take out this 50% premine scam, I thought it would be a good candidate to test on.

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins. In particular, my ol' buddy Kelsey lost a ton last year in GME LOL. Block 5400 or when ever KGW kicks in will be the starting point. This will give all of you enough time to either cold store your AUR or dump them until the chain is fixed, if it can be after the test.


~BCX~

If it was a scam, Balduro would have dumped the premined coins a long time ago. there is actually a large community who believe in this thing.
But I guess the internet is full with assholes like you who try to destroy good things for fun

don't forget the asshole pumpers..

 

[ZeroBarrier]

If it was a scam, Balduro would have dumped the premined coins a long time ago. there is actually a larg ::)e community who believe in this thing.
But I guess the internet is full with assholes like you who try to destroy good things for fun

I smell a bag holder. 

[tokyoghetto]

Balduro can't dump the premine. There isn't enough liquidity. A mouse farting on Mintpal can move the price 40% in any direction, it depends on wind conditions and what type of cheese the mouse ate. Basically the coin is worth nothing but that isn't the point here.

I guess Balduro didn't count on BCX wanting to smash AUR. I hope BCX does take advantage of this situation like a drunk virgin on prom night. This will force real devs to work harder and kill scam devs off one by one.

We should be thanking BCX for doing everyone a favour and be grateful that he is warning people in advance.

[V8x8d]

As some of you know one of my interest is in testing the security of cryptocoins. Over the past 4 years I have "tested" so many I have lost count but one thing remains true. No matter what the so called improvement is, it always has an exploit.

Kimoto Gravity Well is one such improvement that solves a problem that AUR is having at the moment and that is moving at the speed of death as well purportedly protects against 51%. While KGW does protect somewhat against a 51% attack, it opens up a huge hole in the time warp exploit via the diff adjust first deployed against Geist Geld back in mid 2011 and a modded versions used last year on a few Scrypt coins and SHA coins with great success.

Long story short, KGW opens up a flank where a newly modded Time Warp Exploit can be deployed. I have sandbox tested it on AUR and it seems to do the trick in grand fashion but that is with a small amount of nethash in the sandbox. I need a live chain to test it on. So considering the vast amount of request I have received to take out this 50% premine scam, I thought it would be a good candidate to test on.

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins. In particular, my ol' buddy Kelsey lost a ton last year in GME LOL. Block 5400 or when ever KGW kicks in will be the starting point. This will give all of you enough time to either cold store your AUR or dump them until the chain is fixed, if it can be after the test.


~BCX~

If it was a scam, Balduro would have dumped the premined coins a long time ago. there is actually a large community who believe in this thing.
But I guess the internet is full with assholes like you who try to destroy good things for fun

How many of the community are Bagholders and Icelandic people? Best pump and dump yet.

[Canaanite]

I sold 95% of my AUR for a really nice profit.
Im waiting for it to go to reasonable price again to get my share back
so currently, NO im not a bagholder

[Cryptokk]

As some of you know one of my interest is in testing the security of cryptocoins. Over the past 4 years I have "tested" so many I have lost count but one thing remains true. No matter what the so called improvement is, it always has an exploit.

Kimoto Gravity Well is one such improvement that solves a problem that AUR is having at the moment and that is moving at the speed of death as well purportedly protects against 51%. While KGW does protect somewhat against a 51% attack, it opens up a huge hole in the time warp exploit via the diff adjust first deployed against Geist Geld back in mid 2011 and a modded versions used last year on a few Scrypt coins and SHA coins with great success.

Long story short, KGW opens up a flank where a newly modded Time Warp Exploit can be deployed. I have sandbox tested it on AUR and it seems to do the trick in grand fashion but that is with a small amount of nethash in the sandbox. I need a live chain to test it on. So considering the vast amount of request I have received to take out this 50% premine scam, I thought it would be a good candidate to test on.

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins. In particular, my ol' buddy Kelsey lost a ton last year in GME LOL. Block 5400 or when ever KGW kicks in will be the starting point. This will give all of you enough time to either cold store your AUR or dump them until the chain is fixed, if it can be after the test.


~BCX~

Well, if a coin is vulnerable, better to now it early. I'm not wishing the dead of AUR, but I'm for the dead of exploits. Good luck with your experiment.

[anderl]

As some of you know one of my interest is in testing the security of cryptocoins. Over the past 4 years I have "tested" so many I have lost count but one thing remains true. No matter what the so called improvement is, it always has an exploit.

Kimoto Gravity Well is one such improvement that solves a problem that AUR is having at the moment and that is moving at the speed of death as well purportedly protects against 51%. While KGW does protect somewhat against a 51% attack, it opens up a huge hole in the time warp exploit via the diff adjust first deployed against Geist Geld back in mid 2011 and a modded versions used last year on a few Scrypt coins and SHA coins with great success.

Long story short, KGW opens up a flank where a newly modded Time Warp Exploit can be deployed. I have sandbox tested it on AUR and it seems to do the trick in grand fashion but that is with a small amount of nethash in the sandbox. I need a live chain to test it on. So considering the vast amount of request I have received to take out this 50% premine scam, I thought it would be a good candidate to test on.

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins. In particular, my ol' buddy Kelsey lost a ton last year in GME LOL. Block 5400 or when ever KGW kicks in will be the starting point. This will give all of you enough time to either cold store your AUR or dump them until the chain is fixed, if it can be after the test.


~BCX~

I don;t think you have the balls to test Mazacoin.  You still haven't prove you can 51% attack any coin.  I keep asking for blockchain proof and yo never produce it.  Well, I'm calling you out.  You have a change to once and for all prove you can 51% attack a coin with Mazacoin,  if you can't do it in the next 24 hours, hell 48 hours then I will reply to every post you do on bitcointalk about how you can't 51% attack any coin even though you say to can.  Jackass.

[s1gs3gv]

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins.

~BCX~

So, you are publicly announcing that you intend to engage in an activity that could result in arbitrary financial loss to people unknown, by willfully exploiting a weakness in an altcoin ?

How is this different than planting a bomb in a public place, warning everyone that you have done so, and assuring them that if they don't clear the area immediately they could get hurt or die ?

~Wow~

[silicon_chip]

As some of you know one of my interest is in testing the security of cryptocoins. Over the past 4 years I have "tested" so many I have lost count but one thing remains true. No matter what the so called improvement is, it always has an exploit.

Kimoto Gravity Well is one such improvement that solves a problem that AUR is having at the moment and that is moving at the speed of death as well purportedly protects against 51%. While KGW does protect somewhat against a 51% attack, it opens up a huge hole in the time warp exploit via the diff adjust first deployed against Geist Geld back in mid 2011 and a modded versions used last year on a few Scrypt coins and SHA coins with great success.

Long story short, KGW opens up a flank where a newly modded Time Warp Exploit can be deployed. I have sandbox tested it on AUR and it seems to do the trick in grand fashion but that is with a small amount of nethash in the sandbox. I need a live chain to test it on. So considering the vast amount of request I have received to take out this 50% premine scam, I thought it would be a good candidate to test on.

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins. In particular, my ol' buddy Kelsey lost a ton last year in GME LOL. Block 5400 or when ever KGW kicks in will be the starting point. This will give all of you enough time to either cold store your AUR or dump them until the chain is fixed, if it can be after the test.


~BCX~

All the crap that is about to drop out of the sky on top of you, that is a direct result of your own actions.

Vives gladio, gladio morietur.

[anderl]

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins.

~BCX~

So, you are publicly announcing that you intend to engage in an activity that could result in arbitrary financial loss to people unknown, by willfully exploiting a weakness in an altcoin ?

How is this different than planting a bomb in a public place, warning everyone that you have done so, and assuring them that if they don't clear the area immediately they could get hurt or die ?

~Wow~

Don't worry BCX is a pussy he just bullshits on the forums.  He never actually attacked a coin successfully.  Stop being a pussy and crying on a forum.

[anderl]

As some of you know one of my interest is in testing the security of cryptocoins. Over the past 4 years I have "tested" so many I have lost count but one thing remains true. No matter what the so called improvement is, it always has an exploit.

Kimoto Gravity Well is one such improvement that solves a problem that AUR is having at the moment and that is moving at the speed of death as well purportedly protects against 51%. While KGW does protect somewhat against a 51% attack, it opens up a huge hole in the time warp exploit via the diff adjust first deployed against Geist Geld back in mid 2011 and a modded versions used last year on a few Scrypt coins and SHA coins with great success.

Long story short, KGW opens up a flank where a newly modded Time Warp Exploit can be deployed. I have sandbox tested it on AUR and it seems to do the trick in grand fashion but that is with a small amount of nethash in the sandbox. I need a live chain to test it on. So considering the vast amount of request I have received to take out this 50% premine scam, I thought it would be a good candidate to test on.

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins. In particular, my ol' buddy Kelsey lost a ton last year in GME LOL. Block 5400 or when ever KGW kicks in will be the starting point. This will give all of you enough time to either cold store your AUR or dump them until the chain is fixed, if it can be after the test.


~BCX~

All the crap that is about to drop out of the sky on top of you, that is a direct result of your own actions.

Vives gladio, gladio morietur.

[s1gs3gv]

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins.

~BCX~

So, you are publicly announcing that you intend to engage in an activity that could result in arbitrary financial loss to people unknown, by willfully exploiting a weakness in an altcoin ?

How is this different than planting a bomb in a public place, warning everyone that you have done so, and assuring them that if they don't clear the area immediately they could get hurt or die ?

~Wow~

Don't worry BCX is a pussy he just bullshits on the forums.  He never actually attacked a coin successfully.  Stop being a pussy and crying on a forum.

You need to work on your presentation style friend.

+Ignore.

[anderl]

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins.

~BCX~

So, you are publicly announcing that you intend to engage in an activity that could result in arbitrary financial loss to people unknown, by willfully exploiting a weakness in an altcoin ?

How is this different than planting a bomb in a public place, warning everyone that you have done so, and assuring them that if they don't clear the area immediately they could get hurt or die ?

~Wow~

Don't worry BCX is a pussy he just bullshits on the forums.  He never actually attacked a coin successfully.  Stop being a pussy and crying on a forum.

You need to work on your presentation style friend.

Look if you are going to get on your knees and wimper to someone who threatens you then I will call you on it and tell you to be a man about it.  Don't hide behind idle threats about regulations, consumer protection, and homeland security, cyberbullying bullshit.  Reach down, grab a pair, and tell him he is the pussy that you know you are.

[Hazard]

[s1gs3gv]

I am always amazed how quickly serendipitous wealth corrupts the character of grown men and turns them into truculent self absorbed bullies and taunts.
Bitcoin is obviously in the wrong hands for the next stage of its evolution.

~WOW~

[pjviitas]

What do you mean I have to cold store my coins?

[anderl]

Reach down, grab a pair, and tell him he is the pussy that you know you are.

For an asshole, you do say some pretty cool shit some times.


~BCX~

[pjviitas]

As some of you know one of my interest is in testing the security of cryptocoins. Over the past 4 years I have "tested" so many I have lost count but one thing remains true. No matter what the so called improvement is, it always has an exploit.

Kimoto Gravity Well is one such improvement that solves a problem that AUR is having at the moment and that is moving at the speed of death as well purportedly protects against 51%. While KGW does protect somewhat against a 51% attack, it opens up a huge hole in the time warp exploit via the diff adjust first deployed against Geist Geld back in mid 2011 and a modded versions used last year on a few Scrypt coins and SHA coins with great success.

Long story short, KGW opens up a flank where a newly modded Time Warp Exploit can be deployed. I have sandbox tested it on AUR and it seems to do the trick in grand fashion but that is with a small amount of nethash in the sandbox. I need a live chain to test it on. So considering the vast amount of request I have received to take out this 50% premine scam, I thought it would be a good candidate to test on.

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins. In particular, my ol' buddy Kelsey lost a ton last year in GME LOL. Block 5400 or when ever KGW kicks in will be the starting point. This will give all of you enough time to either cold store your AUR or dump them until the chain is fixed, if it can be after the test.


~BCX~

Seriously...cold store my coins...are you fucking nuts?

[1369]

Lol! +1 this is one hell of an interesting, edu-ma-cating & entertaining thread!

[s1gs3gv]

I am always amazed how quickly serendipitous wealth corrupts the character of grown men and turns them into truculent self absorbed bullies and taunts.
Bitcoin is obviously in the wrong hands for the next stage of its evolution.

~WOW~

A few things.

1) This isn't Bitcoin, it's shitcoins aka Alt coins
2) Who says that any of us in fact are "grown men".
3) Humour me mate, tell me why I shouldn't test on this scam coin?


~BCX~

1) Troll
2)
3) I think I already did.

[anderl]

Lol! +1 this is one hell of an interesting, edu-ma-cating & entertaining thread!

popcorn chain

[cryptohunter]

What do you mean I have to cold store my coins?

If your laptop isn't already in your freezer i fear it could already be too late.

Hmmm an potential 500BTC challenge.... this makes staying up for a failed methcoin launch worth it..... let's see.

[efx]

Please make this happen.

I suggest looking into the chains that BCX has attacked...It hasn't been entirely without success. Seems many of you haven't been around the crypto scene long enough to recall the events from more than a year ago, at most. Therefore, your opinion is essentially invalid.

KGT needs its weaknesses exposed before it worms into something that is actually important. Testing is perhaps the only legitimate reason for existence with 99% of the alts.


Pass the popcorn, *****ass Hazard  

[s1gs3gv]

Please make this happen.

accessory to the crime ...

[efx]

There is no crime here, little kid.

The only 'crime' that has been committed stemmed directly from the developer and everyone who simply jumped in and immediately attempted  to pull others into their con.


You people are disgusting, you aren't even capable of asking basic questions about the difficulty adjustment algorithm. Just grab grab grab, con con con.



Also, you've been here less than a month (or perhaps sock puppet?), you really shouldn't be speaking.

[Eex77]

What's with all the dick stroking in this thread?


Also fight, fight, fight!

[s1gs3gv]

There is no crime here, little kid.

The only 'crime' that has been committed stemmed directly from the developer and everyone who simply jumped in and immediately attempted  to pull others into their con.


You people are disgusting, you aren't even capable of asking basic questions about the difficulty adjustment algorithm. Just grab grab grab, con con con.

Don't call me 'kid' bubba. You're just a whiner. What gives you the right to judge other people's actions and advocate for vigilante action against their chosen way ? Your crime is one of arrogance and hate for altcoins. Through your ill considered act of judgement you are willing to cause financial harm to others in pursuit of your ideological beliefs.

[anderl]

What's with all the dick stroking in this thread?


Also fight, fight, fight!

[efx]

I'm whining? Isn't your sole purpose in this thread whining?

I'm here expressing my opinion, formed from watching crypto for over three years. I have every right to judge you and support anyone that exposes your behavior (and the behavior of people like you).


Ding!

Ah, I see you edited...Ask BCX what my opinion is on valid altcoins...You are the ones who have tainted the name 'altcoin'

[s1gs3gv]

I'm whining? Isn't your sole purpose in this thread whining?

I'm here expressing my opinion, formed from watching crypto for over three years. I have every right to judge you and support anyone that exposes your behavior (and the behavior of people like you).


Ding!

Son, I was writing unix device drivers while you were still pissing your pants.

[anderl]

There is no crime here, little kid.

The only 'crime' that has been committed stemmed directly from the developer and everyone who simply jumped in and immediately attempted  to pull others into their con.


You people are disgusting, you aren't even capable of asking basic questions about the difficulty adjustment algorithm. Just grab grab grab, con con con.

Don't call me 'kid' bubba. You're just a whiner. What gives you the right to judge other people's actions and advocate for vigilante action against their chosen way ? Your crime is one of arrogance and hate for altcoins. Through your ill considered act of judgement you are willing to cause financial harm to others in pursuit of your ideological beliefs.

Yeah clearly is is not a 'kid'.  He still has to get to toddler before you can even call him a kid.  jeez

[s1gs3gv]

Face it, bitcoin is in the tank and has nowhere to go but down and out. Get over it.

[efx]

Ohh unix drivers!?

Hahaha, that's wonderful!

You're going to have to try harder if you actually expect me to believe you're anything more than an uneducated teenager.


What, you think I got stuck bagholding? Sorry little buddy, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

[anderl]

Son, I was writing unix device drivers while you were still pissing your pants.

Why don't you tell him you were whittling abacuses too.  That stodgy I'm an old timie programmer nonsense is worthless these days.

[efx]

I think he's just repeating something he heard, probably from an "antique". 

Either way, heh.

[s1gs3gv]

Son, I was writing unix device drivers while you were still pissing your pants.

My dad said the same thing back in '98 when I tried to get him to get DSL and ditch AOL dial up after I told him he didn't understand modern computers. You must be an antique which explains why you have this overwhelming misunderstanding of what constitutes a crime and what doesn't.

~BCX~

hey look, i don't have to prove anything to anybody. Why don't you tone down the rhetoric. What you are planning to do is essentially to cause financial harm to unknown people by exploiting a vulnerability in AUR. That's the bottom line here. In my mind, that's criminal activity.

[anderl]

Son, I was writing unix device drivers while you were still pissing your pants.

My dad said the same thing back in '98 when I tried to get him to get DSL and ditch AOL dial up after I told him he didn't understand modern computers. You must be an antique which explains why you have this overwhelming misunderstanding of what constitutes a crime and what doesn't.

~BCX~

hey look, i don't have to prove anything to anybody. Why don't you tone down the rhetoric. What you are planning to do is essentially to cause financial harm to unknown people by exploiting a vulnerability in AUR. That's the bottom line here. In my mind, that's criminal activity.

[s1gs3gv]

hey look, i don't have to prove anything to anybody. Why don't you tone down the rhetoric. What you are planning to do is essentially to cause financial harm to unknown people by exploiting a vulnerability in AUR. That's the bottom line here. In my mind, that's criminal activity.

Technically KGW hasn't been deployed yet, so no KGW yet exist in AUR.


~BCX~

That is irrelevant. You made your intent clear in your original statement. [edit] I suggest you keep to your sandbox and if you have significant results to publish, then publish and advocate for them, but don't fuck around with real blockchains.

[efx]

No, in your mind it's morally wrong. Crime and morals aren't exactly the same thing. I do understand where you're coming from, I've been on the other side of the same sort of situation before.

However, I consider AUR morally wrong.  If KGT is indeed seriously flawed (and it does appear to be so), the implications extend far beyond the currently short AUR chain. I would rather see one fairly recent chain go down and the others adapt rather than a scammer taking advantage of every chain that utilizes KGT and really screwing everyone over without any notice or understanding of what actually happened.


Ideally, this work would have already been done on a testnet before launch and/or kimoto never advertise his creation as secure. Apparently, that's too much to ask these days.

[cryptohunter]

Son, I was writing unix device drivers while you were still pissing your pants.

My dad said the same thing back in '98 when I tried to get him to get DSL and ditch AOL dial up after I told him he didn't understand modern computers. You must be an antique which explains why you have this overwhelming misunderstanding of what constitutes a crime and what doesn't.

~BCX~

hey look, i don't have to prove anything to anybody. Why don't you tone down the rhetoric. What you are planning to do is essentially to cause financial harm to unknown people by exploiting a vulnerability in AUR. That's the bottom line here. In my mind, that's criminal activity.

Look man i'm getting low on popcorn here... I couldn't care less about the linux drivers. Or the legal/ethical implications.... like that has any kind of weight with someone running a large botnet.

Is there going to to be a 500BTC bet placed tonight or not. It seems that this kind of talk scares most people away. Being a high roller with almost 500 LTC i feel comfortable in these situations.

So let's get to it.

1. anderl -- are you accepting bcx's 250 BTC challenge?

2. how long before i cold storage my 14 aurora coins?

[s1gs3gv]

No, in your mind it's morally wrong. Crime and morals aren't exactly the same thing. I do understand where you're coming from, I've been on the other side of the same sort of situation before.

However, I consider AUR morally wrong.  If KGT is indeed seriously flawed (and it does appear to be so), the implications extend far beyond the currently short AUR chain. I would rather see one fairly recent chain go down and the others adapt rather than a scammer taking advantage of every chain that utilizes KGT and really screwing everyone over without any notice or understanding of what actually happened.


Ideally, this work would have already been done on a testnet before launch and/or kimoto never advertise his creation as secure. Apparently, that's too much to ask these days.

You are not judge and jury and executioner in this world. Maybe in your dreams, but not here, not now.

[s1gs3gv]

Look man i'm getting low on popcorn here...

Who sold you a ticket ?

[cryptohunter]

Look man i'm getting low on popcorn here...

Who sold you a ticket ?

The aurora dev, we're both sitting here in our pj's waiting for the action to start. He said nothing can touch aurora coin, this beast is rock solid.... coingen gives a money back warranty so he's not worried either way.

[anderl]

Look man i'm getting low on popcorn here...

It's a fools bet.  He's already prepped to exploit AUR coin.  The game is rigged.  Besides that wasn't what I was looking for.  I want to see him hammer MAZACOIN.  But he can't do it.  He's already backed Aururacoin and isn't going to drop that exploit to try to feed a troll.  Too bad, so sad

[s1gs3gv]

That is irrelevant. You made your intent clear in your original statement.

Glad you can still read after the sun goes down. My ol' man I guess is probably about your age (50's -ish) and he has a hard reading after dark. Intent hasn't changed. I see in another thread users are advocating for KGW to be deployed sooner than 5400, I'm all for it.


~BCX~

Well make sure you publish a snail mail address where legal service can be delivered if you have the balls.

[anderl]

That is irrelevant. You made your intent clear in your original statement.

Glad you can still read after the sun goes down. My ol' man I guess is probably about your age (50's -ish) and he has a hard reading after dark. Intent hasn't changed. I see in another thread users are advocating for KGW to be deployed sooner than 5400, I'm all for it.


~BCX~

Well make sure you publish a snail mail address where legal service can be delivered if you have the balls.

[s1gs3gv]

Bitcoins, bullies and taunts. Judges, juries and executioners. Where did all the flowers go, long time a passing ...

[anderl]

Bitcoins, bullies and taunts. Judges, juries and executioners. Where did all the flowers go, long time a passing ...

[efx]

No, in your mind it's morally wrong. Crime and morals aren't exactly the same thing. I do understand where you're coming from, I've been on the other side of the same sort of situation before.

However, I consider AUR morally wrong.  If KGT is indeed seriously flawed (and it does appear to be so), the implications extend far beyond the currently short AUR chain. I would rather see one fairly recent chain go down and the others adapt rather than a scammer taking advantage of every chain that utilizes KGT and really screwing everyone over without any notice or understanding of what actually happened.


Ideally, this work would have already been done on a testnet before launch and/or kimoto never advertise his creation as secure. Apparently, that's too much to ask these days.

You are not judge and jury and executioner in this world. Maybe in your dreams, but not here, not now.

You come up with some odd responses. How about you address the real concern I presented instead of pushing back with nothing more than banality. I take it you believe everyone should just lay down and pretend nothing is wrong, even though people have expressed concerned about KGW (idk why I started putting a T in there...) and aur? The funny thing, people are mostly unwilling to listen to the voices of caution around here and have instead willingly lined up for exploitation by not asking the critical questions.

General apathy, misinformation and lack of understanding is not healthy for a strong decentralized chain.

I guess that sounds just fine to you though....

[anderl]

Look man i'm getting low on popcorn here...

It's a fools bet.  He's already prepped to exploit AUR coin.  The game is rigged.  Besides that wasn't what I was looking for.  I want to see him hammer MAZACOIN.  But he can't do it.  He's already backed Aururacoin and isn't going to drop that exploit to try to feed a troll.  Too bad, so sad

At least your straight up honest.

I give you that.


~BCX~

It's a Thursday night and I'm down a half bottle of scotch.  I'm lookin for entertainment.  I may be ripped but I still have enough sense that to place a stupid bet.  I'm not some altcoin dev.

[efx]

Look man i'm getting low on popcorn here...

It's a fools bet.  He's already prepped to exploit AUR coin.  The game is rigged.  Besides that wasn't what I was looking for.  I want to see him hammer MAZACOIN.  But he can't do it.  He's already backed Aururacoin and isn't going to drop that exploit to try to feed a troll.  Too bad, so sad

At least your straight up honest.

I give you that.


~BCX~

It's a Thursday night and I'm down a half bottle of scotch.  I'm lookin for entertainment.  I may be ripped but I still have enough sense that to place a stupid bet.  I'm not some altcoin dev.

Even with the scotch, still sharper than many haha! I honestly know nothing about mazda coin or whatever it is, however since your offer has not been taken up, I assume you might be correct.


...I must ask about the context of that Mr. Rogers .gif, heh.

[anderl]

Also, how have I never seen the Mr. Rogers giving the finger .gif? That was mildly shocking.

I know, right?  I've been waiting all night to use it.  Just gave up and posted it.  Devinate keeper.

[efx]

Hah, I deleted that bit by accident and couldn't remember what I said, yet you managed to capture it 


Yeah, that gif is rather good...

[s1gs3gv]

How about you address the real concern I presented

How about you address my original question in my first post ?
I don't have an issue with valid technical criticism of KGW or anything else. I do have an issue with moralists  intentionally causing other people financial harm, whether it is undertaken as a strategy to shape behavior or because they have failed at technical persuasion and have no other means at their disposal to get what they want.

[anderl]

How about you address the real concern I presented

I do have an issue with moralists  intentionally causing other people financial harm, whether it is undertaken as a strategy to shape behavior or because they have failed at technical persuasion and have no other means at their disposal to get what they want.

Hey about moralists that intentionally cause people financial harm.  Does that include subpar developers that produce exploits because of bad software design, or the inability to correct said flaws before the hole is exploited.

If a upright citizen reports to a bank manager that the back door does not have a lock of it, does the bank manager call the police to arrest the citizen, or does he go out and buy a goddamned lock?

[efx]

You mean your question about bombs? Sorry, I am not a bomb expert.

Sarcasm aside, it seems you do not understand that the majority of (new) people on this forum are not interested in facts or technicalities, they are merely looking for a quick pump to dump some coins on a witless fool.

Not only are they uninterested, they are incapable of making an informed decision as to who is actually telling the truth. Eventually, some sort of practical implementation of a concept is required to validate a theory.


Do I feel sorry for the people that invested fiat (or valid crypto) into a HIGHLY EXPERIMENTAL altcoin that should never have matured beyond testnet? Slightly, however I think they are fully aware of the risks and

they have received warning. That's the most you can ask for around here.

[s1gs3gv]

I am going to go back to #clojure and #haskell and let somebody else tuck you kids into bed.
Don't fuck with real blockchains please.

[efx]

That's exactly what has and should be done. Screw around with them, test them. That's how you establish confidence.


Hashtags? I've never used a hashtag...You're pretty 'trendy' for an antiquity 

[markm]

That's exactly what has and should be done. Screw around with them, test them. That's how you establish confidence.


Hashtags? I've never used a hashtag...You're pretty 'trendy' for an antiquity  

IRC is trendy again all of a sudden because hashtags have come back into fashion?

I think its a long time since IRC was limited to 140-character lines though, if indeed it ever was.

-MarkM-

[anderl]

That's exactly what has and should be done. Screw around with them, test them. That's how you establish confidence.


Hashtags? I've never used a hashtag...You're pretty 'trendy' for an antiquity 

[efx]

I can never tell if people are talking about IRC or damned twitter...In this case, possibly the former, though I think you'll find '#haskell' could apply to g+, twitter or IRC....


What did the pound/number sign ever do to deserve such treatment?



And yes, IRC seems to have recovered somewhat in popularity recently (last several years).  


Anyways, back to the KGW testing.

[Jollyburner]

prices soar to all new highs as BitcoinEXpress joins the AUR security team!! to the moon!!!!

can anyone explain better how this exploit works? ive deduced there is time-warping involved, and that the goal is to hijack a coin and print tons of coins while no one else can because the diff is all low and stuff.

[efx]

Now now, you probably didn't deduce the time warp aspect, BCX gave that away for free  

I would also be interested in further detail.

[niothor]

I'm whining? Isn't your sole purpose in this thread whining?

I'm here expressing my opinion, formed from watching crypto for over three years. I have every right to judge you and support anyone that exposes your behavior (and the behavior of people like you).


Ding!

Ah, I see you edited...Ask BCX what my opinion is on valid altcoins...You are the ones who have tainted the name 'altcoin'

There is nothing to taint there and there was nothing
An altcoin is by definition a shitty clone:)

[dailyarsenal]

Do your thing BCX! We all love it... well at least i do. lol

[niothor]

Well , sincerely I would love to see that experiment , but ,
Why the hell aurora?

The coin is pretty fu** up at the moment , with blocks averaging 8/12 hours sometimes.
KGW will be deployed by block 5200 , so looking on how blocks are mined , not just I , the whole store will run out of popcorn till then.

[Jollyburner]

Now now, you probably didn't deduce the time warp aspect, BCX gave that away for free  

I would also be interested in further detail.

A blast from the blast from that genius kid ArtForz.

I wonder what ever happened to him ? ? ?


~BCX~


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=43692.msg521772#msg521772

thanks, its almost as complicated as actual time-travel I think I get it tho.

but I don't understand this part:

Now here's the weird part, we retarget after blocks 3, 7, 11, 15, and for block 3 we use 0 as first and 3 as last, for 7 we use 4 as first and 7 as last, ...
so what happens if an attackers chain has blk timestamps like this:

Code:

blk#  0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15
time  0   1   2  30   4   5   6  70   8   9  10 110  12  13  14 150

?
first period (#3 - #0) is 30s as before
2nd period is (#7 - #4) ... 66s
3rd period is (#11 - #8) ... 104s

what does minusing #4 from #7 have to do with it? why does it use only the timestamps from particular blocks to calc the diff adjustment?
how can u do less work but do more work? its because its not counting all the work its skipping some and only counting others towards the adjustment/ ?

plz excuse my ultra nub

[Nite69]

Now now, you probably didn't deduce the time warp aspect, BCX gave that away for free  

I would also be interested in further detail.

A blast from the blast from that genius kid ArtForz.

I wonder what ever happened to him ? ? ?


~BCX~


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=43692.msg521772#msg521772

thanks, its almost as complicated as actual time-travel I think I get it tho.

but I don't understand this part:

Now here's the weird part, we retarget after blocks 3, 7, 11, 15, and for block 3 we use 0 as first and 3 as last, for 7 we use 4 as first and 7 as last, ...
so what happens if an attackers chain has blk timestamps like this:

Code:

blk#  0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15
time  0   1   2  30   4   5   6  70   8   9  10 110  12  13  14 150

?
first period (#3 - #0) is 30s as before
2nd period is (#7 - #4) ... 66s
3rd period is (#11 - #8) ... 104s

what does minusing #4 from #7 have to do with it? why does it use only the timestamps from particular blocks to calc the diff adjustment?
how can u do less work but do more work? its because its not counting all the work its skipping some and only counting others towards the adjustment/ ?

plz excuse my ultra nub

Isn't this fixed, if the code walks throught the timescale and takes oldest and newest block (not lowest and highest) to calculate the time diff?

[niothor]

None of this may happen at all. It appears there is communication via reddit from the aur dev. He may not deploy kgw in light of bcx. Looks like they may have to come up with another solution to the diff adj issue. This coin is getting more and more messed up by the minute and unfortunately, yes, it appears I will be a bag holder if it dies.

Sounds interesting from a guy that isn't bothered at all that it takes 12 hours to mine 8 blocks.
Can you share the reddit link?

[sonysasankan]

Son, I was writing unix device drivers while you were still pissing your pants.

My dad said the same thing back in '98 when I tried to get him to get DSL and ditch AOL dial up after I told him he didn't understand modern computers. You must be an antique which explains why you have this overwhelming misunderstanding of what constitutes a crime and what doesn't.

~BCX~

hey look, i don't have to prove anything to anybody. Why don't you tone down the rhetoric. What you are planning to do is essentially to cause financial harm to unknown people by exploiting a vulnerability in AUR. That's the bottom line here. In my mind, that's criminal activity.

That's just plain short sightedness. See the larger picture. The millions that were vanished from Gox and all the other thefts from here and there.... what do you think that is going to achieve? I for one is going to bet that another Gox will not happen.... that's the beauty of the free market. Its designed to evolve, to be better at everything. If there is a vulnuerability, it must be exploited and profited from, otherwise in the longer run, people will not have any incentive to check and recheck for security holes. The prisoners are always on the lookout for ways to escape and the one who escapes is "rewarded" with the freedom and in the longer run is helping the prison become more secure by tracing back the escape plan, methods used, etc and plugging that hole permanently.

[yak]

#failure

[1369]

Son, I was writing unix device drivers while you were still pissing your pants.

My dad said the same thing back in '98 when I tried to get him to get DSL and ditch AOL dial up after I told him he didn't understand modern computers. You must be an antique which explains why you have this overwhelming misunderstanding of what constitutes a crime and what doesn't.

~BCX~

hey look, i don't have to prove anything to anybody. Why don't you tone down the rhetoric. What you are planning to do is essentially to cause financial harm to unknown people by exploiting a vulnerability in AUR. That's the bottom line here. In my mind, that's criminal activity.

That's just plain short sightedness. See the larger picture. The millions that were vanished from Gox and all the other thefts from here and there.... what do you think that is going to achieve? I for one is going to bet that another Gox will not happen.... that's the beauty of the free market. Its designed to evolve, to be better at everything. If there is a vulnuerability, it must be exploited and profited from, otherwise in the longer run, people will not have any incentive to check and recheck for security holes. The prisoners are always on the lookout for ways to escape and the one who escapes is "rewarded" with the freedom and in the longer run is helping the prison become more secure by tracing back the escape plan, methods used, etc and plugging that hole permanently.

amen brother, failure is what drives, motivates, & ultimately leads to, success!

[akumaburn]

Son, I was writing unix device drivers while you were still pissing your pants.

My dad said the same thing back in '98 when I tried to get him to get DSL and ditch AOL dial up after I told him he didn't understand modern computers. You must be an antique which explains why you have this overwhelming misunderstanding of what constitutes a crime and what doesn't.

~BCX~

hey look, i don't have to prove anything to anybody. Why don't you tone down the rhetoric. What you are planning to do is essentially to cause financial harm to unknown people by exploiting a vulnerability in AUR. That's the bottom line here. In my mind, that's criminal activity.

That's just plain short sightedness. See the larger picture. The millions that were vanished from Gox and all the other thefts from here and there.... what do you think that is going to achieve? I for one is going to bet that another Gox will not happen.... that's the beauty of the free market. Its designed to evolve, to be better at everything. If there is a vulnuerability, it must be exploited and profited from, otherwise in the longer run, people will not have any incentive to check and recheck for security holes. The prisoners are always on the lookout for ways to escape and the one who escapes is "rewarded" with the freedom and in the longer run is helping the prison become more secure by tracing back the escape plan, methods used, etc and plugging that hole permanently.

amen brother, failure is what drives, motivates, & ultimately leads to, success!

Unless it cripples you.. but we all know that can't happen right? /sarcasm



But in all honesty with the resources AuroraCoin had.. they should of done much better than they did.

I'm glad to see them fall given their market manipulation tactics alone.

[sonysasankan]

Unless it cripples you.. but we all know that can't happen right? /sarcasm

Sure it can, and if I get burnt, I get to be accountable for that. My next decision would be wiser and more researched, etc. Everyone comes into the crypto world knowing the risks... even the noobs

[Crypt Keeper]

Pretty Bold Stuff Going on here, the truth of the Matter is that A lot of people would loose Coin From this.

BitcoinEXpress if you have the Exploit, the even more Important innovation for all of us, would be the Solution, and the Wizest move here would be to Hand Everyone the Solution and Then You would most likely benefit More as well.

You have to admit that AUR brings in new people to the scene and Gives a Good Representation of what any of these Coins have to offer, the fact that an Entire Body of people can benefit from a Coin like for Iceland just goes to show that more nations will be Accepting the Movement, Exploits and hostile takeovers are not ever going to help any of the coins out, especially BTC I say at this point, all BTC fans need to be minding their Ps and Qs, we dont want anymore bad press, jeez.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents here, If I was AUR dev, I would try to get with you about the specifics in the Exploit.

You Should have the Solution as Well? Yes, No?

Cheers to the Crypto World - I am one to work towards Making Everyone Happy around here,.. And Protective sometimes if need be, right -

K

[southerncross]

Pretty Bold Stuff Going on here, the truth of the Matter is that A lot of people would loose Coin From this.

BitcoinEXpress if you have the Exploit, the even more Important innovation for all of us, would be the Solution, and the Wizest move here would be to Hand Everyone the Solution and Then You would most likely benefit More as well.

You have to admit that AUR brings in new people to the scene and Gives a Good Representation of what any of these Coins have to offer, the fact that an Entire Body of people can benefit from a Coin like for Iceland just goes to show that more nations will be Accepting the Movement, Exploits and hostile takeovers are not ever going to help any of the coins out, especially BTC I say at this point, all BTC fans need to be minding their Ps and Qs, we dont want anymore bad press, jeez.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents here, If I was AUR dev, I would try to get with you about the specifics in the Exploit.

You Should have the Solution as Well? Yes, No?

Cheers to the Crypto World - I am one to work towards Making Everyone Happy around here,.. And Protective sometimes if need be, right -

K

A big + 1 to that.

Instead of a big turkey slapping match from holier than though types why not a silent behind the scenes approach alerting the dev's to possible problems ? .... and a fix on offer

The question has to be asked, is this more to do with ego/s than anything else ? If not then why post a supposed warning where SFA of the holders of said coin will see it ?

Surely with all the infinite knowledge and skill on display there are better way's to go about such " Testing" than hurting the holders.... It's not like the dev will suffer at all if the suppositions made on this thread are true.

[niothor]

Pretty Bold Stuff Going on here, the truth of the Matter is that A lot of people would loose Coin From this.

BitcoinEXpress if you have the Exploit, the even more Important innovation for all of us, would be the Solution, and the Wizest move here would be to Hand Everyone the Solution and Then You would most likely benefit More as well.

You have to admit that AUR brings in new people to the scene and Gives a Good Representation of what any of these Coins have to offer, the fact that an Entire Body of people can benefit from a Coin like for Iceland just goes to show that more nations will be Accepting the Movement, Exploits and hostile takeovers are not ever going to help any of the coins out, especially BTC I say at this point, all BTC fans need to be minding their Ps and Qs, we dont want anymore bad press, jeez.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents here, If I was AUR dev, I would try to get with you about the specifics in the Exploit.

You Should have the Solution as Well? Yes, No?

Cheers to the Crypto World - I am one to work towards Making Everyone Happy around here,.. And Protective sometimes if need be, right -

K

Pretty bold and useless stuff for a guy that just made the account and jumped right on commenting here.
Bag holder much?

[Cryptokk]

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins.

~BCX~

So, you are publicly announcing that you intend to engage in an activity that could result in arbitrary financial loss to people unknown, by willfully exploiting a weakness in an altcoin ?

How is this different than planting a bomb in a public place, warning everyone that you have done so, and assuring them that if they don't clear the area immediately they could get hurt or die ?

~Wow~

The difference is: if their is a weakness in the KGW, many coins are concerned. Is it better to place the bomb now or later when more peoples will be around ?

[Nite69]

Pretty Bold Stuff Going on here, the truth of the Matter is that A lot of people would loose Coin From this.

Would they? I have understood that all that one could do is to cease transactions. With exploits like this, one cannot steal money, just prevent moving them. Or am I wrong at this?

[ghur]

I don;t think you have the balls to test Mazacoin.  You still haven't prove you can 51% attack any coin.  I keep asking for blockchain proof and yo never produce it.  Well, I'm calling you out.  You have a change to once and for all prove you can 51% attack a coin with Mazacoin,  if you can't do it in the next 24 hours, hell 48 hours then I will reply to every post you do on bitcointalk about how you can't 51% attack any coin even though you say to can.  Jackass.

I have no reason to attack Mazacoin.

The devs of GME as well as several other coins know different. You might want to actually check before you post.

Let's put some skin in this challenge since I know you're a self proclaimed high roller.

Lets find a trusted escrow, I propose maybe Saltyspitoon and each deposit 100 BTC, hell make it 250 BTC if you have the nut.

If I don't pull off the Auroracoin KGW Time Warp, you keep it all. If I do and I will, I will keep it all.

(please note, I'm mocking you in the next sentence)
If you can't do it in 24 hours, hell 48 hours then I will reply to every post you make on Bitcointalk on exactly how BCX punked your ass.

So either put up or shut the fuck up.


~BCX~


FYI, I really don't give a flying fuck what you post about me. You're just another bcx obsessed fan as far as I am concerned LOL

Posting to subscribe to this thread

brb, putting up some popcorn buy orders.

[brille]

So, what happens? What's next?

Can someone please explain why people are so mad and angry at these coins?
Why can't we all just be friends?

If someone finds an exploit; prove it in a sandbox, present the findings to the public, and let the community solve the problem.
You know.. that scientific, no-bullshit, no-harm-done-to-innocents way. Don't be an asshole, just because you can.

And also, the the idea of launching a cryptocurrency for an entire country, giving them the chance to move away from the FIAT system (which we all love so much), is something we all should try and help with.
You know, Fix the fucking coin, don't break it.

Even if this is a scam, and Baldur Friggjar Odinsson sells his mother in a hand-basket with all his pre-mined coins the day before the airdrop, it doesn't really matter!
Sure, the price will drop and everyone gets sad, turns to prostitution, drugs and all-week-viewings of "Plan Nine from outer space", but the Idea is still there and so are the people rooting for it.
They are hyped and building connections to make this coin work.

I think a general "Fuck You" is in order, to all of those who wants to see idealistic currency like this and Maza to break.

[ghur]

Why can't we all just be friends?

You must be new here

[niothor]

Why can't we all just be friends?

You must be new here

Spot on:
brille
Brand new

[sonysasankan]

Why can't we all just be friends?

You must be new here

Ha ha ha ha ha... I was thinking the same exact thing.... of course enhanced by the visual of a  bunch of people holding hands and singing "Heal the World"   

[brille]

Yes, a new one.. holy mother of god.. say it ain't so!

[ghur]

Yes, a new one.. holy mother of god.. say it ain't so!

Well.. welcome to this wonderful cesspool where every other post is a scam, troll or insult about your mother's above average weight

Grab some popcorn because BitcoinEXpress is giving us a show.

[brille]

Yes, a new one.. holy mother of god.. say it ain't so!

Well.. welcome to this wonderful cesspool where every other post is a scam, troll or insult about your mother's above average weight

Grab some popcorn because BitcoinEXpress is giving us a show.

Thanks, I got myself a bucket of popcorn when the bets started, I'm just trying to do my share of dealing out the fuck you's..
Just hoping to hit something more than a couple of fourteen year old's who fucks my mother on a regular basis..

Well, here's to being a naive old woman..!

[illodin]

I think a general "Fuck You" is in order, to all of those who wants to see idealistic currency like this and Maza to break.

Yup, the missed-the-train syndrome can get the worst out of people. Especially from already narcissist great self-entitlement types who just hate others having success.

Also, another general observation, if you were lucky enough to go all-in with your whole net worth of 100 DOLLARS when BTC was at $0.01, that doesn't make you an investment genius.

[eoakland]

As some of you know one of my interest is in testing the security of cryptocoins. Over the past 4 years I have "tested" so many I have lost count but one thing remains true. No matter what the so called improvement is, it always has an exploit.

Kimoto Gravity Well is one such improvement that solves a problem that AUR is having at the moment and that is moving at the speed of death as well purportedly protects against 51%. While KGW does protect somewhat against a 51% attack, it opens up a huge hole in the time warp exploit via the diff adjust first deployed against Geist Geld back in mid 2011 and a modded versions used last year on a few Scrypt coins and SHA coins with great success.

Long story short, KGW opens up a flank where a newly modded Time Warp Exploit can be deployed. I have sandbox tested it on AUR and it seems to do the trick in grand fashion but that is with a small amount of nethash in the sandbox. I need a live chain to test it on. So considering the vast amount of request I have received to take out this 50% premine scam, I thought it would be a good candidate to test on.

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins. In particular, my ol' buddy Kelsey lost a ton last year in GME LOL. Block 5400 or when ever KGW kicks in will be the starting point. This will give all of you enough time to either cold store your AUR or dump them until the chain is fixed, if it can be after the test.


~BCX~

This post is above my pay grade.  I am not really sure what the incentive is for you to exploit/tank AUR ?  To my knowledge you cannot short the coin, so there is no real financial gain in bringing it down.  What if the premined coins really are set aside to help folks in a financial bind ?  Why attack a coin that is supposed to give AID ?  How about attacking coins like SexCoin, TittyCoin, PotCoin, or Dope Coin why AUR ?  

Maybe you can do what you say and maybe you cannot--I am not well informed one way or the other to comment on that skill set

BCX, let me find out you are this guy in sun glasses grabbing the mic
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f51_1392395809

[digitalindustry]

As some of you know one of my interest is in testing the security of cryptocoins. Over the past 4 years I have "tested" so many I have lost count but one thing remains true. No matter what the so called improvement is, it always has an exploit.

Kimoto Gravity Well is one such improvement that solves a problem that AUR is having at the moment and that is moving at the speed of death as well purportedly protects against 51%. While KGW does protect somewhat against a 51% attack, it opens up a huge hole in the time warp exploit via the diff adjust first deployed against Geist Geld back in mid 2011 and a modded versions used last year on a few Scrypt coins and SHA coins with great success.

Long story short, KGW opens up a flank where a newly modded Time Warp Exploit can be deployed. I have sandbox tested it on AUR and it seems to do the trick in grand fashion but that is with a small amount of nethash in the sandbox. I need a live chain to test it on. So considering the vast amount of request I have received to take out this 50% premine scam, I thought it would be a good candidate to test on.

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins. In particular, my ol' buddy Kelsey lost a ton last year in GME LOL. Block 5400 or when ever KGW kicks in will be the starting point. This will give all of you enough time to either cold store your AUR or dump them until the chain is fixed, if it can be after the test.


~BCX~

Seriously...cold store my coins...are you fucking nuts?

haven't read all the pages but hoping this was an Iceland joke  ?

dismiss if not  : D

as per the whole thread:  ahh it is what it is , negligible effect. so called "Alts" have moved so far past BTC, BTC needs this.

[Nite69]

Hi BCX!

You seem to be quite open at your evilness ;-)

Would you tell the truth, if I asked would this protect against the attack you are planning?:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=505243.0

[TotalPanda]

simply a new light

while {
         loop
        }
and BCX is disarmed/will help to secure   

[sonysasankan]

Hi BCX!

You seem to be quite open at your evilness ;-)

Would you tell the truth, if I asked would this protect against the attack you are planning?:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=505243.0

....the plot thickens 

[HCLivess]

I had my doubts towards you and I was wrong! Thank you for the analysis, please proceed with destruction.

[Lordoftherigs]

Hi BCX!

You seem to be quite open at your evilness ;-)

Would you tell the truth, if I asked would this protect against the attack you are planning?:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=505243.0

....the plot thickens 

This remains me of the silly movie villains that tells their evil plan before actually executing it.... We all knows how they all end....



''Yippee ki-yay, motherfucker! ''

John Mcclane

[Nite69]

Hi BCX!

You seem to be quite open at your evilness ;-)

Would you tell the truth, if I asked would this protect against the attack you are planning?:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=505243.0

While this is an improvement in the efficiency of KGW, it is still KGW.

Short answer is  I don't think so, but I will drop it in and see.


~BCX~

Actually, I guess it won't help. The problem might be not the adjustment algorithm itself, but the speed of it. Too quick adjustment while allowing large timestamp windows on the blocks allows you to adjust diff for you only. It allows you to generate a secret blockchain with timestamps that will give you a lot smaller diff than the outside word. Of course, you publish it only after you got several blocks with your lower difficulty. Am I right, wrong or even close?

[BohemianStalker]

AUR will survive this. It was I who predicted on this whole shitty forum that it will go 400M+ on coinmarketcap and nowI have info about it's defenses against this kind of shit. GL with the live chain haha.

[TotalPanda]

+1

I'am a C# dev, I have read the white paper
and I'am pretty sure they can't exploit the KWG.

I was in [panic sell mode] 

[LTEX]

Yes, a new one.. holy mother of god.. say it ain't so!

Well.. welcome to this wonderful cesspool where every other post is a scam, troll or insult about your mother's above average weight

Grab some popcorn because BitcoinEXpress is giving us a show.

Aaahhhhh I was already wondering why it was so quiet, peaceful, calm and decent in the other threads. You guys have found something better to waste your time on and, of course, eat popcorn  

Have fun guys, hope you enjoy!!!

Really, I mean it!!!

[1369]

Mr. BCX, seeing the fear you have struck into the hearts of AUR holders, what is to prevent a curious cryptonoob from assuming you're simply out to plummet AUR price & buy in? No man is above greed, yet those perceived as powerful tend to fool us into assuming otherwise.

[TotalPanda]

+1

I'am a C# dev, I have read the white paper
and I'am pretty sure they can't exploit the KWG.

I was in [panic sell mode]  

Bad news, the exploit is not enabled by a code issue in KGW, it is enabled by what KGW does. KGW functioning as intended is critical to this exploit. Without KGW, there is no exploit.


~BCX~

Bad news == Good news  


using System.Fair;

private static bool BCX = false;
public long AUR = 1;
//public long BTC = 1;  

class NoWorry
{
    public static void IDontWant2SellCheapAUR()
    {
     while
         {BCX == false
            {
            AUR++;
            }
         }
     }  
}

NO DECIMAL HERE

[bushstar]

Some of us are still waiting on that 51% attack BitcoinEXpress promised us a long time ago. That never happened but the threat scared the market into making some very cheap coins available.

BitcoinEXpress, are you looking for some cheap coins again

Now you have our attention how about some evidence to back up your claim?

[embicoin]

If you don't give any technical details more than "I tested this shit premine scam", you have 0% credentials.

________ END OF TOPIC __________

[LTEX]

If you don't give any technical details more than "I tested this shit premine scam", you have 0% credentials.

________ END OF TOPIC __________

I Agree, by the way, he's acting like some kind of wizard, but guess what? This is how he plans to do it (without meaningful result btw)...:

By exploiting the fact that retargeting ignores one block interval every period, it's possible for an attackers' fork chain to "jump backwards in time" and create lots of blocks at low difficulty without running nTime off into the far future.

Bitcoin (and most *coin) rules re. block timestamps:
nTime has to be > median of prev 11 blocks.
nTime has to be < now() + some buffer.

let's say we have a chain with 4-block interval and 10 sec/block.
Official chain, currect diff for hashrate, blocks found at nominal time:

Code:
blk#  0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15
time  0  10  20  30  40  50  60  70  80  90 100 110 120 130 140 150

Now here's the weird part, we retarget after blocks 3, 7, 11, 15, and for block 3 we use 0 as first and 3 as last, for 7 we use 4 as first and 7 as last, ...
so what happens if an attackers chain has blk timestamps like this:

Code:
blk#  0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15
time  0   1   2  30   4   5   6  70   8   9  10 110  12  13  14 150

?
first period (#3 - #0) is 30s as before
2nd period is (#7 - #4) ... 66s
3rd period is (#11 - #8) ... 104s

Whoops.
Obviously this ignores the "problem" of the attackers chain having way lower sum-of-difficulty
but thats easy to fix:

Code:
blk# 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ...
time 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ...

just keep driving diff up at maximum speed until you have the same total work as the real chain.
result-> the attackers chain does not violate the block timestamp rules, finishes at a *earlier* block timestamp than the real chain, ends up at a higher total work as the real chain, but contains way more blocks.

[ghur]

If you don't give any technical details more than "I tested this shit premine scam", you have 0% credentials.

________ END OF TOPIC __________

You're gonna regret not buying popcorn now while it's low.
It's gonna pump hard!

[embicoin]

If you don't give any technical details more than "I tested this shit premine scam", you have 0% credentials.

________ END OF TOPIC __________

I Agree, by the way, he's acting like some kind of wizard, but guess what? This is how he plans to do it (without meaningful result btw)...:

By exploiting the fact that retargeting ignores one block interval every period, it's possible for an attackers' fork chain to "jump backwards in time" and create lots of blocks at low difficulty without running nTime off into the far future.

Bitcoin (and most *coin) rules re. block timestamps:
nTime has to be > median of prev 11 blocks.
nTime has to be < now() + some buffer.

let's say we have a chain with 4-block interval and 10 sec/block.
Official chain, currect diff for hashrate, blocks found at nominal time:

Code:
blk#  0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15
time  0  10  20  30  40  50  60  70  80  90 100 110 120 130 140 150

Now here's the weird part, we retarget after blocks 3, 7, 11, 15, and for block 3 we use 0 as first and 3 as last, for 7 we use 4 as first and 7 as last, ...
so what happens if an attackers chain has blk timestamps like this:

Code:
blk#  0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15
time  0   1   2  30   4   5   6  70   8   9  10 110  12  13  14 150

?
first period (#3 - #0) is 30s as before
2nd period is (#7 - #4) ... 66s
3rd period is (#11 - #8) ... 104s

Whoops.
Obviously this ignores the "problem" of the attackers chain having way lower sum-of-difficulty
but thats easy to fix:

Code:
blk# 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ...
time 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ...

just keep driving diff up at maximum speed until you have the same total work as the real chain.
result-> the attackers chain does not violate the block timestamp rules, finishes at a *earlier* block timestamp than the real chain, ends up at a higher total work as the real chain, but contains way more blocks.

The only accepted blockchain would be the longer one, so your nice explanation involves the attackers generating a longer alternative blockchain at a higher speedrate than the real network does, If I understand well this is almost impossible, specially with such beast difficulty present on AUR.

The cost of performing that kind of attack would be so high so it will divert attackers to actually mine the coin in an "honorable" way to obtain more profit in AUR coins for the same hashrate.

[Nite69]

This might be just a story, but a nice one so I write it, wheather it is true or not.

First you generate a block in the future, so it's KGW difficulty calculation just hits the event horizon. After you have that block, you generate another one, the same time ahead to the future. With each block you generate, KGW generously offers you a smaller difficulty for your own secret blockchain. You go to the future, so far that you'll get the lowest possible diff. (Edit: Actually could you occasionally step backwards in time so eventually do not end in the future at all? You might use one block (and get higher diff) to get back in time worth 5 blocks (which give you 5x lower diff you payed when going back))

After that the join begins! You have the lowest difficulty and you happily generate blocks with timestamp exactly 5 minutes. Since you are floating out of the real time, you can generate them at any speed you wish, as far as you keep the timestamps at 5 min interval.

Now you have a long, secret blockchain. But bummer, it is in the future! No pain.. you start climbing back to the real time. But unfortunately, each block is more difficult.. this time KGW demands its reward...  "A timestamp is accepted as valid if it is greater than the median timestamp of previous 11 blocks, and less than the network-adjusted time + 2 hours." You hit the time warp wall and then you can only wait. (Edit: you can do more: build blocks, use one of 5 to get halfway back..repeat) However, when real blockchain reaches you.. you might be lucky enought to have a higher blockchain. And when you announce this to the other clients, in the correct time window.. the chain is all yours!

And then they revert back to the block 5400 and you lose everything.

Nice story, isn't it?


Edit: when you are inside your own blockchain, you can actually generate blocks faster than outside word. Generate 11 blocks at 5 min interval, get halfway back in time with one block, generate next 11 blocks etc.

[TotalPanda]

Alice in Wonderland with a dark horse 51% HASHRATE

[LTEX]

you happily generate blocks with timestamp 
YOU NEED 51% HASHRATE

And thus that resolves the FUD that started these 7 pages, because when block 5400 arrives, most miners in real dedicated pools will happily jump back in, scaring the shit out of the hacking hobbyists....

Please keep this threa(t)d open though, it keeps the popcorn eating nono's off the really serious ones!

TNX!

[TotalPanda]

Fix zeitgeist2 attack

return pindexLast->nBits;

etc.

[mcg]

thanks for mentioning this.

[mcg]

Fix zeitgeist2 attack

return pindexLast->nBits;

etc.

lol. no.

[Nite69]

Edit: when you are inside your own blockchain, you can actually generate blocks faster than outside word. Generate 11 blocks at 5 min interval, get halfway back in time with one block, generate next 11 blocks etc.

Don't know if this is the hole BCX is planning to use, but I think it would be closed, if algorithm would not allow blocks going back in time?
You still could get lower diff by going to the future, but you could not get back to sync to real word.. unless you find another hole which allows you to generate more blocks than designed.

[TotalPanda]

Fix zeitgeist2 attack

return pindexLast->nBits;

etc.

lol. no.

public bool yes_no;

yes_no = true;

sharp  

[Jollyburner]

wingdings / coffee ;

12* BCX likes flexxun;

AUR sux = true

fart 

[s1gs3gv]

Pretty Bold Stuff Going on here, the truth of the Matter is that A lot of people would loose Coin From this.

this ^

Premeditated and willful destruction of private property. That's been a crime almost everywhere for almost forever. The motive isn't relevant.

~~XCB~~

[kelsey]

As someone who has lost out in BCX testing methods (I'll ignore the 'LOL' arrrrg)  , I say thanks for the headsup this time   

Well if there is a possible exploit the sooner its tested out the better for everyone. We're all beta testers here, all fun and games when we are making nice profits, but few can handle the downside 

Want less risk, DYOR and avoid dodgy (well the dodgiest) coins.

[s1gs3gv]

As someone who has lost out in BCX testing methods (I'll ignore the 'LOL' arrrrg)   , I say thanks for the headsup this time  

Well if there is a possible exploit the sooner its tested out the better for everyone. We're all beta testers here, all fun and games when we are making nice profits, but few can handle the downside  

Want less risk, DYOR and avoid dodgy (well the dodgiest) coins.

Please speak for yourself. I'm not a beta tester.
Testing that has the potential to destroy private property should not be done on the public block chains.

[warlogna]

Testing that has the potential to destroy private property should not be done on the public block chains.

Last I checked, everything about the coin was public and based on open source.

Besides, all I am going to do is mine it in a different way, I'm not responsible for design flaws LOL

If the devs were smart, they would fix this before block 5400.

Keep in mind I simply could have ambushed this chain, like I have done in the past to others.

Just trying to be polite and a good netizen.


~BCX~

So are you going to do it or what?

[s1gs3gv]

Testing that has the potential to destroy private property should not be done on the public block chains.

Last I checked, everything about the coin was public and based on open source.

Besides, all I am going to do is mine it in a different way, I'm not responsible for design flaws LOL

If the devs were smart, they would fix this before block 5400.

Keep in mind I simply could have ambushed this chain, like I have done in the past to others.

Just trying to be polite and a good netizen.


~BCX~

Your motive and excuses are irrelevant.

What don't you understand about property crime ?

~~XCB~~

[s1gs3gv]

"Judge. All I did was exploit a design flaw in a door with a lock pick I invented myself and smashed up a few things because I didn't like the way the house was built..

So, you see, its all the door's fault.

~~XCB~~

[s1gs3gv]

"Judge remands prisoner for a psychological evaluation before sentencing."

[kelsey]

"Judge, I exploited fake money (that a few people where trying to make real money out of) on the internet..."....hmmmmm

"Judge. All I did was exploit a design flaw in a door with a lock pick I invented myself and smashed up a few things because I didn't like the way the house was built..

So, you see, its all the door's fault.

~~XCB~~

[s1gs3gv]

"Judge, I exploited fake money (that a few people where trying to make real money out of) on the internet..."....hmmmmm

"Judge. All I did was exploit a design flaw in a door with a lock pick I invented myself and smashed up a few things because I didn't like the way the house was built..

So, you see, its all the door's fault.

~~XCB~~

Ok, lets talk about whether crypto-currencies are fake money or represent value (property) that some people may have spent time or money to acquire.

[eoakland]

So are you going to do it or what?

Yes, when block 5400 or KGW gets deployed.

Which ever comes first.


~BCX~

I still don't get what you get out of this ?  are you seeking validation, attention ?  you come across very full of yourself and smug.  like i said before, I have no idea of whether or not you have the skill set to do what you indicate; what I do know is you are coming across like a total hater and are the equiv. to an internet terrorist of sorts. 

[kelsey]

"Judge, I exploited fake money (that a few people where trying to make real money out of) on the internet..."....hmmmmm

"Judge. All I did was exploit a design flaw in a door with a lock pick I invented myself and smashed up a few things because I didn't like the way the house was built..

So, you see, its all the door's fault.

~~XCB~~

Ok, lets talk about whether crypto-currencies are fake money or represent value (property) that some people may have spent time or money to acquire.

More to the point is how a present day judge would perceive it; on that note (and the fact we are talking Auroracoin here) I'm willing to stick with the fake money.

[s1gs3gv]

"Judge, I exploited fake money (that a few people where trying to make real money out of) on the internet..."....hmmmmm

"Judge. All I did was exploit a design flaw in a door with a lock pick I invented myself and smashed up a few things because I didn't like the way the house was built..

So, you see, its all the door's fault.

~~XCB~~

Ok, lets talk about whether crypto-currencies are fake money or represent value (property) that some people may have spent time or money to acquire.

More to the point is how a present day judge would perceive it; on that note (and the fact we are talking Auroracoin here) I'm willing to stick with the fake money.

Your remarks trivialize the very real and significant issues surrounding the ~BCX~ announcement regarding crypto, property, and individual rights.
Are you justifying the destruction of private property on the basis that you don't think this particular coin has any value ?

Prisoner: "Judge, the house I smashed up wasn't a real house, it was a fake house"

Judge: "Prisoner and council are *both* remanded in custody for psychological evaluation"

[kelsey]

s1gs3gv sorry few steps back btw what private property is BCX being destructive of? He's just doing some security testing, and even explained how to secure your coins until testing phase is over.

If the coin doesn't recover from the testing I'd say its the devs issue.

[Kiwicon]

I am always amazed how quickly serendipitous wealth corrupts the character of grown men and turns them into truculent self absorbed bullies and taunts.
Bitcoin is obviously in the wrong hands for the next stage of its evolution.

~WOW~

+1

[kelsey]

Please speak for yourself. I'm not a beta tester.

Whether or not you perceive you are doesn't change the fact that you are, everyone in cryptos is a beta tester.

[s1gs3gv]

s1gs3gv sorry few steps back btw what private property is BCX being destructive of?

From the OP: "Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins."

[s1gs3gv]

Please speak for yourself. I'm not a beta tester.

Whether or not you perceive you are doesn't change the fact that you are, everyone in cryptos is a beta tester.

That is a very cavalier and self serving statement.

I guess your implied argument is that because there is risk in cryptos, it is acceptable for someone to conduct experiments on the AUR (and others, by self-incrimination {errrrmm self-admission}) block chain even though they can be expected to result in property loss to other people.

I'm done with you buddy until you show some signs of independent thought and stop being a ~BCT~ sockpuppet
+ignore

[s1gs3gv]

The real motive for the ~BCT~  'experiment' :

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=505534.0

[illodin]

3) Humour me mate, tell me why I shouldn't test on this scam coin?

Because messing up with wrong kind of people's monies might get you killed.

Disclaimer before mouths start to foam: No, I'm not that kind of people. No, I'm not threatening anyone. Simply stating it's a possibility and a reason not to do it.

I still don't get what you get out of this ?  are you seeking validation, attention ?  you come across very full of yourself and smug.  like i said before, I have no idea of whether or not you have the skill set to do what you indicate; what I do know is you are coming across like a total hater and are the equiv. to an internet terrorist of sorts. 

Probably asberger's, narcissism, and lack of mother's love as a child. Also doesn't bench even 150 lbs.

[Eex77]

So are you going to do it or what?

Yes, when block 5400 or KGW gets deployed.

Which ever comes first.


~BCX~

I still don't get what you get out of this ?  are you seeking validation, attention ?  you come across very full of yourself and smug.  like i said before, I have no idea of whether or not you have the skill set to do what you indicate; what I do know is you are coming across like a total hater and are the equiv. to an internet terrorist of sorts. 

He pretty much does this to extend and have people stroke his e-peen. I can't really see any other reason for it, but it is entertaining to watch his back and forth.

[Jollyburner]

Testing that has the potential to destroy private property should not be done on the public block chains.

Besides, all I am going to do is mine it in a different way, I'm not responsible for design flaws LOL

~BCX~

+1

such truth, much appreciate, subscribed to yo nuts.

[kelsey]

I'm done with you buddy until you show some signs of independent thought and stop being a ~BCT~ sockpuppet
+ignore

Lol I'm hardly BCX sockpuppet, his testing/mining in the past has cost me, we've also had a few big clashes in the past (many regulars from the old cryptsy chat could confirm that).

However despite several difference of opinion, we are both intelligent enough not you just blanket disagree with each others every comment out of spite etc.

BCX could just as easily experimentally mine a coin I've invested in, just be happy you've had the headsup.

[sonysasankan]

"Judge, I exploited fake money (that a few people where trying to make real money out of) on the internet..."....hmmmmm

"Judge. All I did was exploit a design flaw in a door with a lock pick I invented myself and smashed up a few things because I didn't like the way the house was built..

So, you see, its all the door's fault.

~~XCB~~

Ok, lets talk about whether crypto-currencies are fake money or represent value (property) that some people may have spent time or money to acquire.

More to the point is how a present day judge would perceive it; on that note (and the fact we are talking Auroracoin here) I'm willing to stick with the fake money.

Your remarks trivialize the very real and significant issues surrounding the ~BCX~ announcement regarding crypto, property, and individual rights.
Are you justifying the destruction of private property on the basis that you don't think this particular coin has any value ?

Prisoner: "Judge, the house I smashed up wasn't a real house, it was a fake house"

Judge: "Prisoner and council are *both* remanded in custody for psychological evaluation"

To be fair, just because you have invested time and money in acquiring AUR either by mining or trading, that does not mean others have to uphold the value of the "property" you posses. If someone else found a method to drive your coins to zero value, fair and square by expoiting a hole in the open source system, then by all means its his right to do so. He's not hacking into your system and stealing them from you or anything. To me you sound like the horse carriage owner who is huffing and puffing at the news of a different kind of carriage that does not require horses. We need these kind of black swan events to strengthen the system.... you don't build earthquake proof skyscrapers if you don't have earthquakes. Get what I'm saying? We need earthquake proof crypto... and nobody really cares for the people who are caught in the crossfire.... the emergence of the better system after a catastrophy is what is going to drive cryptos forward.

[Nite69]

This might be just a story, but a nice one so I write it, wheather it is true or not.

First you generate a block in the future, so it's KGW difficulty calculation just hits the event horizon. After you have that block, you generate another one, the same time ahead to the future. With each block you generate, KGW generously offers you a smaller difficulty for your own secret blockchain. You go to the future, so far that you'll get the lowest possible diff. (Edit: Actually could you occasionally step backwards in time so eventually do not end in the future at all? You might use one block (and get higher diff) to get back in time worth 5 blocks (which give you 5x lower diff you payed when going back))

After that the join begins! You have the lowest difficulty and you happily generate blocks with timestamp exactly 5 minutes. Since you are floating out of the real time, you can generate them at any speed you wish, as far as you keep the timestamps at 5 min interval.

Now you have a long, secret blockchain. But bummer, it is in the future! No pain.. you start climbing back to the real time. But unfortunately, each block is more difficult.. this time KGW demands its reward...  "A timestamp is accepted as valid if it is greater than the median timestamp of previous 11 blocks, and less than the network-adjusted time + 2 hours." You hit the time warp wall and then you can only wait. (Edit: you can do more: build blocks, use one of 5 to get halfway back..repeat) However, when real blockchain reaches you.. you might be lucky enought to have a higher blockchain. And when you announce this to the other clients, in the correct time window.. the chain is all yours!

And then they revert back to the block 5400 and you lose everything.

Nice story, isn't it?


Edit: when you are inside your own blockchain, you can actually generate blocks faster than outside word. Generate 11 blocks at 5 min interval, get halfway back in time with one block, generate next 11 blocks etc.

No comments on this? Noone has yet proven this rigt or wrong? Since BCX is quiet, I assume this is it. And if it is, It is easy to fix.

The problem: KGW allows miner to generate an own blockchain with *lower diff* by generating blocks whose timestamp is in the future. The real problem is that this is not syncronous; that miner can come 'back in time' for free; it should be punished with equal rise in diff or prevented at all.

FIX: DO NOT ALLOW TIMESTAMP BEFORE ANY EARLIER BLOCKS!

Edit: However, that should be thought carefully; would it cause problems, if someone mines block 1.59 minutes in the future by purpose?

Edit2: Current time syncronization is good enought so we should be able to make that windows smaller; maybe even 10 minutes? Half hour?  

Edit3: Here is a fix:

Code:

diff --git a/src/main.h b/src/main.h
index 830e451..b7a7570 100644
--- a/src/main.h
+++ b/src/main.h
@@ -1142,7 +1142,7 @@ public:
         return true; // CheckProofOfWork(GetBlockHash(), nBits);
     }
 
-    enum { nMedianTimeSpan=11 };
+    enum { nMedianTimeSpan=1 };
 
     int64 GetMedianTimePast() const
     {

Edit4: Correct fix would be modify the KGW code so it will calculate diff adjustment correctly with negative times. The gain in diff when going forward in time should be payed back when coming back.

I have a feeling this has popped up earlier... but I think the system should also make automatic checkpoints. There should never be any good reason to roll blockchain back more than mining confirmation time. All clients should make an automatic checkpoint at blocks that has been confirmed and whose coinbase coins are usable. Maybe it could be even later, even 6 blocks.

[TotalPanda]

no worry about the BCX clown
Balduro is more skilled (roll back is possible)

[disclaimer201]

Still waiting for Litecoin to be 51% attacked. All this causes is FUD and temporary price loss. Nothing is going to happen.

[Nite69]

Another scenarion:
After block 5400, our secret miner (or not-so-secret) makes a private blockchain. Normal block interval is 5 minutes, but our miner decides to timestamp his block 1 day forwad. For the next block he gets 20% lower difficulty than the outside word. He cannot publish the block, it will not be accepted because it is not in the present 2 hour time window. No matter, he continues, generates another block 1 day forward. Again, 20% lower difficulty for the next.. after 5 blocks he is at 33% of the official difficulty. Then, he makes the trick; he can go backward in time to the *median* time of 11 last blocks.. ie he can go to the time he started. And he has 33% of the difficulty compared to the outside word.  (Edit: actually going backward in time costs him 20%, but 33 + 20% is still under 40%)

After generating 6 blocks at normal rate, he can do it again. And again..

He cannot publish the chain unless the highest block is on the time window. But that is not a problem, he can travel in time, as long as he follows the rule!

Remove that one "1" from the source. Has someone counted the blocks that has gone backward in time? Is there really any need for that?
(Edit: lol, this must be the smallest security hole fix in the history of bitcoin..)

Edit: Found out that the limit on going lower is not 20%, but 10%. It slows down a bit this, but does not prevent it.

[Nite69]

Still waiting for Litecoin to be 51% attacked. All this causes is FUD and temporary price loss. Nothing is going to happen.

Litecoin does not have KGW. There really is a flaw. It should be fixed.

[Nite69]

Another scenarion:
After block 5400, our secret miner (or not-so-secret) makes a private blockchain. Normal block interval is 5 minutes, but our miner decides to timestamp his block 1 day forwad. For the next block he gets 20% lower difficulty than the outside word. He cannot publish the block, it will not be accepted because it is not in the present 2 hour time window. No matter, he continues, generates another block 1 day forward. Again, 20% lower difficulty for the next.. after 5 blocks he is at 33% of the official difficulty. Then, he makes the trick; he can go backward in time to the *median* time of 11 last blocks.. ie he can go to the time he started. And he has 33% of the difficulty compared to the outside word.  (Edit: actually going backward in time costs him 20%, but 33 + 20% is still under 40%)

After generating 6 blocks at normal rate, he can do it again. And again..

He cannot publish the chain unless the highest block is on the time window. But that is not a problem, he can travel in time, as long as he follows the rule!

Remove that one "1" from the source. Has someone counted the blocks that has gone backward in time? Is there really any need for that?
(Edit: lol, this must be the smallest security hole fix in the history of bitcoin..)

Ok, BCX, and the audience. What is the judgement? Busted or not busted? We have plenty of time to fix this. But do the other alt coins having KGW?

Edit: I assume silence as an admitting response.

[disclaimer201]

Still waiting for Litecoin to be 51% attacked. All this causes is FUD and temporary price loss. Nothing is going to happen.

Litecoin does not have KGW. There really is a flaw. It should be fixed.

Lol, perhaps this will be good for coins like Ltc and Dgc who did not jump onto the KGW bandwaggon but came up with own solutions.

[Nite69]

Another scenarion:
After block 5400, our secret miner (or not-so-secret) makes a private blockchain. Normal block interval is 5 minutes, but our miner decides to timestamp his block 1 day forwad. For the next block he gets 20% lower difficulty than the outside word. He cannot publish the block, it will not be accepted because it is not in the present 2 hour time window. No matter, he continues, generates another block 1 day forward. Again, 20% lower difficulty for the next.. after 5 blocks he is at 33% of the official difficulty. Then, he makes the trick; he can go backward in time to the *median* time of 11 last blocks.. ie he can go to the time he started. And he has 33% of the difficulty compared to the outside word.  (Edit: actually going backward in time costs him 20%, but 33 + 20% is still under 40%)

After generating 6 blocks at normal rate, he can do it again. And again..

He cannot publish the chain unless the highest block is on the time window. But that is not a problem, he can travel in time, as long as he follows the rule!

Remove that one "1" from the source. Has someone counted the blocks that has gone backward in time? Is there really any need for that?
(Edit: lol, this must be the smallest security hole fix in the history of bitcoin..)

Ok, BCX, and the audience. What is the judgement? Busted or not busted? We have plenty of time to fix this. But do the other alt coins having KGW?

Edit: I assume silence as an admitting response.

Sure, run a long and fix KGW.

I have said several times that code flaws in KGW are not the heart of this.

KGW needs to perform as designed in order for this work hence why I waiting for KGW deployment.


~BCX~

If you bothered to read my text, I suggested to prevent generating blocks whose timestamps are in the past, not a change in the KGW (well actually I suggested that a while ago, but I was wrong, it was not the core failure).

Yes, KGW just allows one to use the possibility to get quickly lower diff by timestamping the blocks to the future. And since standard allows to warp back after 5 blocks, you get your private, low-diff block chain back in real time so others will accept it as the new official chain.

Edit: I could be wrong, I could be right. But as long as there are no comments from the others, this is just my opinion. But as I said, I could be right. So I suggest you call all KGW implemented altcoins to review my theory. You should do it quicky; if I happpen to be right, you might already have someone building an own blockchain.. hurry up! Prove I'm wrong and there is no flaw!

[s1gs3gv]

To be fair, just because you have invested time and money in acquiring AUR either by mining or trading, that does not mean others have to uphold the value of the "property" you posses.

[snip]

 ... and nobody really cares for the people who are caught in the crossfire.... the emergence of the better system after a catastrophy is what is going to drive cryptos forward.

wrt your first argument, it sounds like you are advocating for a lawless society where other people's property rights are not respected

wrt your second argument, this is the old 'The ends justify the means' argument, which has been used in the past by all kinds of miscreants to justify harm against others.

+ignore until you show evidence of a high school diploma

[sonysasankan]

To be fair, just because you have invested time and money in acquiring AUR either by mining or trading, that does not mean others have to uphold the value of the "property" you posses.

[snip]

 ... and nobody really cares for the people who are caught in the crossfire.... the emergence of the better system after a catastrophy is what is going to drive cryptos forward.

wrt your first argument, it sounds like you are advocating for a lawless society where other people's property rights are not respected

wrt your second argument, this is the old 'The ends justify the means' argument, which has been used in the past by all kinds of miscreants to justify harm against others.

+ignore until you show evidence of a high school diploma

Would you please shut it with the property rights property rights property rights nonsense?

Of course property needs to be respected. That's not even questionable. I am questioning your thinking about why you think someone needs to take your investment into consideration when they clearly have no obligation to. For example, If you hold a considerable amount of shares of Microsoft, and If im a programmer who discovered a serious security flaw in the Windows OS that enabled me to switch on your webcam without you knowing, and I exposed that to the world. That resulted in millions trying to "check it out" leading many people to abandon the OS and move to Linux, thereby plummeting the stocks to peanuts and millions of people losing millions. In a scenario like that, do you seriously think I have an obligation to consider the value of your shares in Microsoft before I make my move? Of course not! You choosing to buy Microsoft shares from all other available shares is a risk you take.... so why is it any different with AUR?

As for the second one, are you like: "Oh, we have an end-justifies-the-means fellow. Must be evil." You seem to be relying on predetermined stereotypical conclusions instead of actually going about and giving any proper arguments on WHY I am wrong. Using that logic, I too can throw out pseudo Buddhist farts like "Progress should not come at the cost of harming someone", etc

[illodin]

It is very much a possibility that there are AUR holders in a country where doing whatever OP is planning on doing will be illegal, i.e. attacking money transfers, forging transfers, and what not. Or OP himself might be living in one. Comparing shares of a company to a currency is not applicable.

[kalus]

It is very much a possibility that there are AUR holders in a country where doing whatever OP is planning on doing will be illegal, i.e. attacking money transfers, forging transfers, and what not. Or OP himself might be living in one. Comparing shares of a company to a currency is not applicable.

there is no 'attack'.  the blockchain is working as designed.  

Due to the rampant inflation of its supposed value, the hashrate cannot protect the blockchain from an attack anymore. learning about the state of the blockchain should be important to anybody that researchs cryptocurrencies before investing hashrate into them.  If you cannot protect a blockchain which is distributed by design from a single entity, there is nothing that will stop even a small cartel from wrecking the coin.

ergo, auroracoin is overvalued because the inability of the community to maintain its own blockchain.  the solution is to send the value of auroracoin down to a level where it is sustainable, and can build a network hashrate that can protect the value of the coin.

the thread discussions here are déjà vu with previous BCX threads, so you should at least read up on what's happened in the past.  

[s1gs3gv]

there is nothing that will stop even a small cartel from wrecking the coin.   

By cartel, I assume you mean an organization of people subject to the RICO criminal statute (18 U.S.C.A. § 1963) ?

[sonysasankan]

It is very much a possibility that there are AUR holders in a country where doing whatever OP is planning on doing will be illegal, i.e. attacking money transfers, forging transfers, and what not. Or OP himself might be living in one. Comparing shares of a company to a currency is not applicable.

I doubt you even know what you're talking about. And so what? What is "Illegal"? Some Govt declared mechanism to decide whom to aggress upon? This is open source man...It has freedom to evolve and will always turn out better than before. The outdated will perish, and yes, it will have victims... it is up to you to adapt.

[kalus]

there is nothing that will stop even a small cartel from wrecking the coin.  

By cartel, I assume you mean an organization of people subject to the RICO criminal statute (18 U.S.C.A. § 1963) ?

Depending on where you live, US federal code may or may not apply to your activity.  

By cartel i mean a group of people that follow an agreement to follow the same market strategy in the manipulation of an asset.  members of a cartel engage in price fixing, manipulating output, manipulating market share, rigging bids, and division of profits.  the aim of a cartel, whether in industry, stock market, or cryptocurrency, is to increase the members' profits by reducing competition.  if you research the current pump-and-dump groups and the recent pump and dump of auroracoin, you can observe a cartel in operation.  

[kelsey]

there is nothing that will stop even a small cartel from wrecking the coin.  

By cartel, I assume you mean an organization of people subject to the RICO criminal statute (18 U.S.C.A. § 1963) ?

so basically the US gov and its bankers  

[sonysasankan]

there is nothing that will stop even a small cartel from wrecking the coin.  

By cartel, I assume you mean an organization of people subject to the RICO criminal statute (18 U.S.C.A. § 1963) ?

Depending on where you live, US federal code may or may not apply to your activity.  

By cartel i mean a group of people that follow an agreement to follow the same market strategy in the manipulation of an asset.  members of a cartel engage in price fixing, manipulating output, manipulating market share, rigging bids, and division of profits.  the aim of a cartel, whether in industry, stock market, or cryptocurrency, is to increase the members' profits by reducing competition.  if you research the current pump-and-dump groups and the recent pump and dump of auroracoin, you can observe a cartel in operation.  

I would have to call BS on that.... a cartel always requires the power of the govt to function. To act upon their agenda, they will require favourable laws (aka blocking fair competition), the muscle of the state (cops, legislative threats, etc) and many other "favours" from a central agency. It is simply uneconomical for a cartel to block competition with their own money. Now in the freemarket world of Crypto, a cartel cannot exist. There may be whales and sardines, but in all fairness, they are whales because they invested their time and resources (brains, skills) to get there. Pump and dump is a completely fair process. What would be unfair is a central authority who is brought in to control this method (aka threaten the whales with violence for non compliance) so that the horde can enjoy artificial stability.

[kalus]

I would have to call BS on that.... a cartel always requires the power of the govt to function.

DeBeers is the diamond cartel controlling 50% of the world's inventory, and does this without the power of the government to function.

Sinaloa Cartel is a group of criminal drug organisations that operates worldwide, and functions in direct opposition to the government.

three incumbent Canadian wireless companies collude together in a cartel to maintain some of the highest prices in the world for phone plans, and actively attack new market entrants.  this is done despite the efforts of the government regulator.

cartels don't always require the power of government.  it does help when the government is involved, but not essential.

Pump and dump is a completely fair process.

a pump and dump is more fair to the people within the circle i.e. cartel.

pump and dump relies on market manipulation and the cartel maintaining its strategy (i.e. "hodl") until the pre-determined signal.  this is contrary to free market where everyone would be acting as independent agents.  the precise timing to provide optimal payout relies on maintaining information asymmetry over the competition unfairly through collusion.  if you're in the cartel, you make money, and if you're out, you get to be bagholder.  that's not an even playing field.  

[Nite69]

We can allow new blocks to travel 1 block back in time, so I'd modify my earlier fix:

Code:

diff --git a/src/main.h b/src/main.h
index 830e451..b7a7570 100644
--- a/src/main.h
+++ b/src/main.h
@@ -1142,7 +1142,7 @@ public:
         return true; // CheckProofOfWork(GetBlockHash(), nBits);
     }
 
-    enum { nMedianTimeSpan=11 };
+    enum { nMedianTimeSpan=3 };
 
     int64 GetMedianTimePast() const
     {

This should be in effect after the block 5400. Wheather or not that is the flaw BCX is planning to use, this should be fixed anyway.

lo, didn't think about it earlier; but now it is not only one byte fix, it is one bit fix  :-D

[sonysasankan]

I would have to call BS on that.... a cartel always requires the power of the govt to function.

DeBeers is the diamond cartel controlling 50% of the world's inventory, and does this without the power of the government to function.

Sinaloa Cartel is a group of criminal drug organisations that operates worldwide, and functions in direct opposition to the government.

three incumbent Canadian wireless companies collude together in a cartel to maintain some of the highest prices in the world for phone plans, and actively attack new market entrants.  this is done despite the efforts of the government regulator.

cartels don't always require the power of government.  it does help when the government is involved, but not essential.

Pump and dump is a completely fair process.

a pump and dump is more fair to the people within the circle i.e. cartel.

pump and dump relies on market manipulation and the cartel maintaining its strategy (i.e. "hodl") until the pre-determined signal.  this is contrary to free market where everyone would be acting as independent agents.  the precise timing to provide optimal payout relies on maintaining information asymmetry over the competition unfairly through collusion.  if you're in the cartel, you make money, and if you're out, you get to be bagholder.  that's not an even playing field.  

Are you telling me De Beers controlls the diamond market and rose to the top without any aid from the South African / Zimbabwe government? They just set up shop, and every other business minded person turned a blind eye on to the opportunity of making money from diamonds... for no apparent reason... ran it like that for like the last 100+ years, and thus got in control of the market? And by government, I mean any entity that has a monopoly on power and is "authorized" to use force without any repurcussion for their actions. That can include other rebels who are anti govt and want to overthrow the current govt and put someone favourable to them.

As for teh Pump n dump, you are talking like that is an external event "happening to people". If someone is selling, it means that someone is buying at that price.... voluntarily. That's teh key word there... voluntarily. So what if a group of people take a stand and say they will not purchase at a price higher than so much and together decide they will all sell it at this price or higher? You are taking accountability away from them when you say they are "left holding the bag". If a person chooses to invest in something where he knows a lot of teh other buyers are prone to panic and can fluctuate the prices based on their collective panic, he is choosing to take that risk by not considering that dynamic while parting with his money.

[illodin]

the thread discussions here are déjà vu with previous BCX threads, so you should at least read up on what's happened in the past.  

If it's the same discussion as in this thread then there's no point. There are cities that offer free legal services to their residents, and I suggest anyone who will suffer any damages due to OP's actions will use them. And if their opinion is that nothing illegal has happened then that's it then. But I suspect they might have differing views as well.

Depending on where you live, US federal code may or may not apply to your activity.   

There are likely AUR holders who will suffer damages and live in a country where whatever OP is planning on doing will be illegal. Doesn't matter where OP lives. The amount of damages then dictate whether it makes sense to pursue it further.

[Starlightbreaker]

I will sandbox test this during the coming work week and let you know the results.

I happen to agree with you on this.

~BCX~

bitch, its about goddamn time for you to put up some fireworks.

hit me up once you're about to light up your shit.

i want to be in the front line, watching

[Nite69]

I am interested in this as well. So far I've only seen incorrectly implemented KGW's get attacked.

Please see also this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=505243.msg5567450#msg5567450

[kalus]

Are you telling me De Beers controlls the diamond market and rose to the top without any aid from the South African / Zimbabwe government?

yes.  that's the whole point of a multinational company with worldwide influence:  capital flight.  Russia, Australia, Botswana, DRC, Canada, Angola, ghana, and Brazil are alternate places to do business if South Africa doesn't.  and Zimbabwe produces fewer diamonds than any of those countries:  why would DeBeers give a shit?

And by government, I mean any entity that has a monopoly on power and is "authorized" to use force without any repurcussion for their actions. That can include other rebels who are anti govt and want to overthrow the current govt and put someone favourable to them.

so basically, you're arguing against my point by redefining the word 'government'.

As for teh Pump n dump, you are talking like that is an external event

interesting, but we disagree.

[brother3]

I don;t think you have the balls to test Mazacoin.  You still haven't prove you can 51% attack any coin.  I keep asking for blockchain proof and yo never produce it.  Well, I'm calling you out.  You have a change to once and for all prove you can 51% attack a coin with Mazacoin,  if you can't do it in the next 24 hours, hell 48 hours then I will reply to every post you do on bitcointalk about how you can't 51% attack any coin even though you say to can.  Jackass.

I have no reason to attack Mazacoin.

The devs of GME as well as several other coins know different. You might want to actually check before you post.

Let's put some skin in this challenge since I know you're a self proclaimed high roller.

Lets find a trusted escrow, I propose maybe Saltyspitoon and each deposit 100 BTC, hell make it 250 BTC if you have the nut.

If I don't pull off the Auroracoin KGW Time Warp, you keep it all. If I do and I will, I will keep it all.

(please note, I'm mocking you in the next sentence)
If you can't do it in 24 hours, hell 48 hours then I will reply to every post you make on Bitcointalk on exactly how BCX punked your ass.

So either put up or shut the fuck up.


~BCX~


FYI, I really don't give a flying fuck what you post about me. You're just another bcx obsessed fan as far as I am concerned LOL

This actually sounds fair!!!!

[anderl]

You do realize I"m out of popcorn.  WTH am I supposed to do now???

[Zisef]

Hmmm tissues, and toothpaste odd combination. Is that your substitute for hand lotion?

[BorisTheSpider]

I am interested in this as well. So far I've only seen incorrectly implemented KGW's get attacked.

A bit of pen-and-paper (plus spreadsheet) work indicates that BCX will indeed do this - it's an interesting vulnerability, so thanks BCX for exposing it. I agree with Nite69 about the 3 block median - I'd already considered that after he posted yesterday about disallowing _all_ earlier timestamps (ie. taking median timestamp of 1 block), since it opens up another rather nasty vulnerability if you fix it that way.

[Nite69]

disallowing _all_ earlier timestamps (ie. taking median timestamp of 1 block), since it opens up another rather nasty vulnerability if you fix it that way.

Interesting. Can you tell more?
Another question; Currently it does not allow block timestamp <= median time.. ie eventually the timestamp has to increase. Is there any reason for that, so could it be < mediantime, which would allow same timestamps?

[Nite69]

I'm quite sure this has been discussed before, but why clients does not make automatic checkpoints? I understand that transactions which are at least 6 blocks old, are considered valid. There should be no reason to re-arrange the blockchain after that, for any reason.

So I'd like to hear what is the reasoning behind the fact that there are no automatic checkpoints? Maybe manually overrideable?

[BorisTheSpider]

disallowing _all_ earlier timestamps (ie. taking median timestamp of 1 block), since it opens up another rather nasty vulnerability if you fix it that way.

Interesting. Can you tell more?
Another question; Currently it does not allow block timestamp <= median time.. ie eventually the timestamp has to increase. Is there any reason for that, so could it be < mediantime, which would allow same timestamps?

Re the first question, if you disallow all earlier timestamps - what happens when I start mining and publishing blocks with timestamps 2 hours ahead? I now have another 2 hours in which to mine the next one - during this time, no honest nodes can mine (_no_ earlier timestamps than my block are considered valid), and as soon as the timestamp for my most recent DoS block rolls by, I have another one ready and mined (I have 2 hours to prepare it) to publish, so I can keep denying the rest of the network service while I mine the chain with the most work in it, even though I don't have much hashrate.

For example, if your chain has 1 minute blocks, but I have 2 hours in which to mine my next DoS block, I need less than 1% of the hashrate to do it.

What about if we take the median of the past 3 blocks as the lowest acceptable timestamp?

Now:

1. Attacker mines a block (with a timestamp 2 hour in future). Consider this a random occurence, and evaluate probabilities _after_ this happens, because the attacker is going to keep getting blocks randomly, and each time he gets one, he gets an opportunity.

Currently, honest nodes can mine - 2 of the last 3 blocks have "normal" timestamps, so the median is low enough that everyone can mine. Our attacker needs to accomplish (2).

2. Attacker mines a second block with a timestamp 2 hours in the future. His chance to do this before the rest of the network (once (1) has already occured) is exactly his proportion of nethash.

For example, an attacker with 10% of nethash, on a chain with 1 minute blocks, achieves (1) every 10 minutes, and once in every 10 times he does (1) he manages to do (2).  Ie. he can DoS the network every 100 minutes on average.

But once he's managed to achieve (2), he can keep doing it, even with very little hashrate, because the mainnet can't mine anything, or rather all their efforts are wasted - all their blocks with honest timestamps are invalid, so the attacker can keep mining blocks with timestamps that will be valid when he releases them, while everyone else keeps trying to mine blocks with timestamps that won't be valid. Immediately the most recent DoS block timestamp rolls around, our mainnet should, on average, take another minute to get a block with a valid timestamp and break the cycle, yet our attacker is ready to release his pre-prepared block right away, before they get a chance to do so.

In fact, it gets worse, because once he has 3 in a row, the honest nodes now need to mine 2 valid timestamped blocks in a row in order to unfreeze the network. Good luck doing that with our attacker continually releasing his pre-prepared blocks. You'd either have to fix the problem and roll the whole chain back, or get the honest miners also trying to generate timestamps immediately after the most recent DoS block (eg. the honest nodes intentionally generating future timestamps) which would turn it back to a 51% attack.

Note that our attacker can not only deny mining to the honest nodes, he can also achieve the chain with the highest total work, without needing a majority of the hashrate to do it, because he can keep working whilst stopping everyone else from doing so.

So, the median of 3 blocks alone isn't the fix, since on chains with short blocktimes the 2 hour window in the future where blocks are accepted as valid is also an issue.

I actually suspect the 11 block median isn't random or any kind of arbitrary choice, and that Satoshi made it that way for a reason. If our attacker has to get 6 future timestamped blocks in a series of 11, rather than just 2 out of 3, his job of beginning the attack is much harder.

About your second question, I haven't considered why that is. Maybe it's related - it's interesting, and I'll ponder it.

[niothor]

You do realize I"m out of popcorn.  WTH am I supposed to do now???

no popcorn image below

Still at block  4544 .. more popcorn needed:)

[Nite69]

No, I think it is not a vulnerability. See below.

disallowing _all_ earlier timestamps (ie. taking median timestamp of 1 block), since it opens up another rather nasty vulnerability if you fix it that way.

Interesting. Can you tell more?
Another question; Currently it does not allow block timestamp <= median time.. ie eventually the timestamp has to increase. Is there any reason for that, so could it be < mediantime, which would allow same timestamps?

Re the first question, if you disallow all earlier timestamps - what happens when I start mining and publishing blocks with timestamps 2 hours ahead? I now have another 2 hours in which to mine the next one - during this time, no honest nodes can mine (_no_ earlier timestamps than my block are considered valid), and as soon as the timestamp for my most recent DoS block rolls by, I have another one ready and mined (I have 2 hours to prepare it) to publish, so I can keep denying the rest of the network service while I mine the chain with the most work in it, even though I don't have much hashrate.

If you mine a block and publish it, let's say 2 hour 10 minute to the future; other nodes just considers it as non-valid block and they can continue mining with the earlier block. They won't even relay it to other nodes. If they find a block before your block becomes valid, your block will never survive. If others does not find a block, the moment your block is in the 2-hour window it can be accepted (but you must 'publish it again') and others restart mining it as a new head.

By mining to the future, you take a risk that you lose the hashes you have used to the block, and I guess you lose in the long run. If you have mined also the next block, you just risk to lose coinbases from 2 blocks, with no benefit.

For example, if your chain has 1 minute blocks, but I have 2 hours in which to mine my next DoS block, I need less than 1% of the hashrate to do it.

What about if we take the median of the past 3 blocks as the lowest acceptable timestamp?

Now:

1. Attacker mines a block (with a timestamp 2 hour in future). Consider this a random occurence, and evaluate probabilities _after_ this happens, because the attacker is going to keep getting blocks randomly, and each time he gets one, he gets an opportunity.

Currently, honest nodes can mine - 2 of the last 3 blocks have "normal" timestamps, so the median is low enough that everyone can mine. Our attacker needs to accomplish (2).

2. Attacker mines a second block with a timestamp 2 hours in the future. His chance to do this before the rest of the network (once (1) has already occured) is exactly his proportion of nethash.

For example, an attacker with 10% of nethash, on a chain with 1 minute blocks, achieves (1) every 10 minutes, and once in every 10 times he does (1) he manages to do (2).  Ie. he can DoS the network every 100 minutes on average.

But once he's managed to achieve (2), he can keep doing it, even with very little hashrate, because the mainnet can't mine anything, or rather all their efforts are wasted - all their blocks with honest timestamps are invalid, so the attacker can keep mining blocks with timestamps that will be valid when he releases them, while everyone else keeps trying to mine blocks with timestamps that won't be valid. Immediately the most recent DoS block timestamp rolls around, our mainnet should, on average, take another minute to get a block with a valid timestamp and break the cycle, yet our attacker is ready to release his pre-prepared block right away, before they get a chance to do so.

In fact, it gets worse, because once he has 3 in a row, the honest nodes now need to mine 2 valid timestamped blocks in a row in order to unfreeze the network. Good luck doing that with our attacker continually releasing his pre-prepared blocks. You'd either have to fix the problem and roll the whole chain back, or get the honest miners also trying to generate timestamps immediately after the most recent DoS block (eg. the honest nodes intentionally generating future timestamps) which would turn it back to a 51% attack.

Note that our attacker can not only deny mining to the honest nodes, he can also achieve the chain with the highest total work, without needing a majority of the hashrate to do it, because he can keep working whilst stopping everyone else from doing so.

So, the median of 3 blocks alone isn't the fix, since on chains with short blocktimes the 2 hour window in the future where blocks are accepted as valid is also an issue.

I actually suspect the 11 block median isn't random or any kind of arbitrary choice, and that Satoshi made it that way for a reason. If our attacker has to get 6 future timestamped blocks in a series of 11, rather than just 2 out of 3, his job of beginning the attack is much harder.

About your second question, I haven't considered why that is. Maybe it's related - it's interesting, and I'll ponder it.

A block outside of the 2 hour window will not make any DoS, it won't even be relayed throught your neighbor nodes.
And the moment it is accepted and relayed, everyone can start mining subsequent blocks equallly.

[BorisTheSpider]

If you mine a block and publish it, let's say 2 hour 10 minute to the future; other nodes just considers it as non-valid block and they can continue mining with the earlier block. They won't even relay it to other nodes. If they find a block before your block becomes valid, your block will never survive. If others does not find a block, the moment your block is in the 2-hour window it can be accepted (but you must 'publish it again') and others restart mining it as a new head.

No, I think you missed the point - I mean, I mine blocks and publish them with timestamps just _less_ than 2 hours in the future.

A block outside of the 2 hour window will not make any DoS, it won't even be relayed throught your neighbor nodes.
And the moment it is accepted and relayed, everyone can start mining subsequent blocks equallly.

Yes, but 2 blocks _within_ the 2 hour window (but towards the end of of it) will deny mining to everyone else until those blocks pass.

Your question did make me realise I got something wrong though - he needs pairs of blocks to continue the attack.

An example might help illustrate what I mean, we start at 00:00 UTC.

The honest nodes mine blocks at 00:01 00:02 00:03 etc. with the network achieving it's nominal 1 minute blocktime.

At 00:10 our attacker with 10% of nethash manages to mine his first block. He publishes it with a timestamp of 02:09. At this point, the last 3 blocks timestamps are 00:08 00:09 and 02:09 so the median is 00:09 - it's 00:10 so everyone can mine.

Now he has a 10% chance to mine the next block. He's successful at 00:10:50 and publishes that block with a timestamp of 02:10. The timestamps of the most recent 3 blocks are now 00:09 02:09 and 02:10 - the median timestamp is 02:09 and it is 00:11 - no-one can mine, they try to publish blocks with timestamps like 00:12, 00:13 etc. and they are rejected.

Our attacker prepares 2 blocks with  timestamps of 04:08 and 04:09 and at 02:09 exactly, releases them - everyone else has only just started having a chance to mine a block with a valid timestamp again, on average it will take them a minute to get one, but at 02:09:01 our attacker has already published his blocks. The most recent 3 timestamps are now 02:10 04:08 04:09 - mining is again impossible for nodes trying to publish blocks with current timestamps (it's 02:09:xx) while the attacker can continue mining.

Not only has he mined his 2 blocks though with the timestamps 04:08 and 04:09, he's also mined some for 06:08/06:09, 08:08/08:09 and so forth. As many as he wants, while everyone else has been mining fruitlessly. What he can't do, is release his whole chain in one go (because lots of it will be more than 2 hours in the future), but he can release it piece by piece like this.

Note that his chain here has the most work in it - even though he's getting 2 hours to mine 2 blocks (so doesn't need a lot of hashrate - with a 1 minute blockrate for the network, he needs 1/60th of nethash to average a block per hour on his own) he is managing to do some work, but the rest of the network is doing none at all.

He can publish more too - the above is highly simplified - what about this:

As before:

The honest nodes mine blocks at 00:01 00:02 00:03 etc. with the network achieving it's nominal 1 minute blocktime.

At 00:10 our attacker with 10% of nethash manages to mine his first block. He publishes it with a timestamp of 02:09. At this point, the last 3 blocks timestamps are 00:08 00:09 and 02:09 so the median is 00:09 - it's 00:10 so everyone can mine.

Now he has a 10% chance to mine the next block. He's successful at 00:10:50 and publishes that block with a timestamp of 02:10. The timestamps of the most recent 3 blocks are now 00:09 02:09 and 02:10 - the median timestamp is 02:09 and it is 00:11 - no-one can mine, they try to publish blocks with timestamps like 00:12, 00:13 etc. and they are rejected.

Now out attacker publishes blocks with timestamps just under 2 hours in the future continually. He takes about 10 minutes to get a block remember (he has 10% of nethash).

At 00:21 he publishes a block with a timestamp of 02:20 (last 3 02:09, 02:10, 02:20 median 02:10)
At 00:31 he publishes a block with a timestamp of 02:30 (last 3 02:10, 02:20, 02:30 median 02:20)
At 00:41 he publishes a block with a timestamp of 02:40 (last 3 02:20, 02:30, 02:40 median 02:30)
etc.
etc.

All the while everyone else keeps trying to mine blocks with accurate timestamps, only the attacker can extend the chain.

The 11 block median means our attacker needs 6 blocks out of 11 to start the attack - so with 10% of nethash, he gets block 1 (we consider this a done deal), he now has 10% chance to get the next one, then if he gets that, 10% chance for the next etc. so his problem compounds - he needs to "get lucky" 5 times, rather than just once more, to start the attack.

Also, with 10 minute blocktimes, and a 2 hour window for future timestamps, his blocktime is now 100 minutes (with 10% of nethash) but he needs to mine 6 more blocks (within 2 hours) to continue the attack.

The 2 hour window is way too big for chains with short blocktimes. That problem is compounded if you reduce the number of blocks you consider the median of, since it then takes less blocks to continue the attack.

[1369]

I nominate BCX as troll of the month for his most excellent work on this thread.
twitch.tv/trollcoin

[Nite69]

If you mine a block and publish it, let's say 2 hour 10 minute to the future; other nodes just considers it as non-valid block and they can continue mining with the earlier block. They won't even relay it to other nodes. If they find a block before your block becomes valid, your block will never survive. If others does not find a block, the moment your block is in the 2-hour window it can be accepted (but you must 'publish it again') and others restart mining it as a new head.

No, I think you missed the point - I mean, I mine blocks and publish them with timestamps just _less_ than 2 hours in the future.

But that's just like every normal block; after it is published, everyone can start mining with timestamp which is one second after your block.

A block outside of the 2 hour window will not make any DoS, it won't even be relayed throught your neighbor nodes.
And the moment it is accepted and relayed, everyone can start mining subsequent blocks equallly.

Yes, but 2 blocks _within_ the 2 hour window (but towards the end of of it) will deny mining to everyone else until those blocks pass.

Your question did make me realise I got something wrong though - he needs pairs of blocks to continue the attack.

An example might help illustrate what I mean, we start at 00:00 UTC.

The honest nodes mine blocks at 00:01 00:02 00:03 etc. with the network achieving it's nominal 1 minute blocktime.

At 00:10 our attacker with 10% of nethash manages to mine his first block. He publishes it with a timestamp of 02:09. At this point, the last 3 blocks timestamps are 00:08 00:09 and 02:09 so the median is 00:09 - it's 00:10 so everyone can mine.

Now he has a 10% chance to mine the next block. He's successful at 00:10:50 and publishes that block with a timestamp of 02:10. The timestamps of the most recent 3 blocks are now 00:09 02:09 and 02:10 - the median timestamp is 02:09 and it is 00:11 - no-one can mine, they try to publish blocks with timestamps like 00:12, 00:13 etc. and they are rejected.

Every node can start mining with timestamp 02:10, it is in the 2 hour window. Why they would not mine with that timestamp?

Our attacker prepares 2 blocks with  timestamps of 04:08 and 04:09 and at 02:09 exactly, releases them - everyone else has only just started having a chance to mine a block with a valid timestamp again, on average it will take them a minute to get one, but at 02:09:01 our attacker has already published his blocks. The most recent 3 timestamps are now 02:10 04:08 04:09 - mining is again impossible for nodes trying to publish blocks with current timestamps (it's 02:09:xx) while the attacker can continue mining.

At any given moment, every node can mine and has a change to find a block proportional to it's hashing power. If you mine outside of the 2 hour window or otherwise just hold blocks you have already found, you just risk losing your profit.

Not only has he mined his 2 blocks though with the timestamps 04:08 and 04:09, he's also mined some for 06:08/06:09, 08:08/08:09 and so forth. As many as he wants, while everyone else has been mining fruitlessly. What he can't do, is release his whole chain in one go (because lots of it will be more than 2 hours in the future), but he can release it piece by piece like this.

Note that his chain here has the most work in it - even though he's getting 2 hours to mine 2 blocks (so doesn't need a lot of hashrate - with a 1 minute blockrate for the network, he needs 1/60th of nethash to average a block per hour on his own) he is managing to do some work, but the rest of the network is doing none at all.

He can publish more too - the above is highly simplified - what about this:

As before:

The honest nodes mine blocks at 00:01 00:02 00:03 etc. with the network achieving it's nominal 1 minute blocktime.

At 00:10 our attacker with 10% of nethash manages to mine his first block. He publishes it with a timestamp of 02:09. At this point, the last 3 blocks timestamps are 00:08 00:09 and 02:09 so the median is 00:09 - it's 00:10 so everyone can mine.

Now he has a 10% chance to mine the next block. He's successful at 00:10:50 and publishes that block with a timestamp of 02:10. The timestamps of the most recent 3 blocks are now 00:09 02:09 and 02:10 - the median timestamp is 02:09 and it is 00:11 - no-one can mine, they try to publish blocks with timestamps like 00:12, 00:13 etc. and they are rejected.

Now out attacker publishes blocks with timestamps just under 2 hours in the future continually. He takes about 10 minutes to get a block remember (he has 10% of nethash).

At 00:21 he publishes a block with a timestamp of 02:20 (last 3 02:09, 02:10, 02:20 median 02:10)
At 00:31 he publishes a block with a timestamp of 02:30 (last 3 02:10, 02:20, 02:30 median 02:20)
At 00:41 he publishes a block with a timestamp of 02:40 (last 3 02:20, 02:30, 02:40 median 02:30)
etc.
etc.

All the while everyone else keeps trying to mine blocks with accurate timestamps, only the attacker can extend the chain.

The 11 block median means our attacker needs 6 blocks out of 11 to start the attack - so with 10% of nethash, he gets block 1 (we consider this a done deal), he now has 10% chance to get the next one, then if he gets that, 10% chance for the next etc. so his problem compounds - he needs to "get lucky" 5 times, rather than just once more, to start the attack.

Also, with 10 minute blocktimes, and a 2 hour window for future timestamps, his blocktime is now 100 minutes (with 10% of nethash) but he needs to mine 6 more blocks (within 2 hours) to continue the attack.

The 2 hour window is way too big for chains with short blocktimes. That problem is compounded if you reduce the number of blocks you consider the median of, since it then takes less blocks to continue the attack.

[BorisTheSpider]

Every node can start mining with timestamp 02:10, it is in the 2 hour window. Why they would not mine with that timestamp?

Why would they timestamp their block 2 hours late? They will timestamp it with their adjusted time, unless they are using modified code.

[Nite69]

Every node can start mining with timestamp 02:10, it is in the 2 hour window. Why they would not mine with that timestamp?

Why would they timestamp their block 2 hours late? They will timestamp it with their adjusted time, unless they are using modified code.

They just follows the same rules, this is unmodified code:

Code:

pblock->nTime = max(pindexPrev->GetMedianTimePast()+1, GetAdjustedTime());

And good reasons are: 1) not to leave a vulnerablity 2) to mine efficiently

[BorisTheSpider]

Every node can start mining with timestamp 02:10, it is in the 2 hour window. Why they would not mine with that timestamp?

Why would they timestamp their block 2 hours late? They will timestamp it with their adjusted time, unless they are using modified code.

They just follows the same rules, this is unmodified code:

Code:

pblock->nTime = max(pindexPrev->GetMedianTimePast()+1, GetAdjustedTime());

And good reasons are: 1) not to leave a vulnerablity 2) to mine efficiently

Ah - thankyou! I had no idea about this. Here I am conjouring up vulnerabilities that aren't there...

[Nite69]

Every node can start mining with timestamp 02:10, it is in the 2 hour window. Why they would not mine with that timestamp?

Why would they timestamp their block 2 hours late? They will timestamp it with their adjusted time, unless they are using modified code.

They just follows the same rules, this is unmodified code:

Code:

pblock->nTime = max(pindexPrev->GetMedianTimePast()+1, GetAdjustedTime());

And good reasons are: 1) not to leave a vulnerablity 2) to mine efficiently

Ah - thankyou! I had no idea about this. Here I am conjouring up vulnerabilities that aren't there...

np, it's allways better to discuss ideas and possible vulnerabilities than to leave them unknown, whether they are real or not.

[colinistheman]

As some of you know one of my interest is in testing the security of cryptocoins. Over the past 4 years I have "tested" so many I have lost count but one thing remains true. No matter what the so called improvement is, it always has an exploit.

Kimoto Gravity Well is one such improvement that solves a problem that AUR is having at the moment and that is moving at the speed of death as well purportedly protects against 51%. While KGW does protect somewhat against a 51% attack, it opens up a huge hole in the time warp exploit via the diff adjust first deployed against Geist Geld back in mid 2011 and a modded versions used last year on a few Scrypt coins and SHA coins with great success.

Long story short, KGW opens up a flank where a newly modded Time Warp Exploit can be deployed. I have sandbox tested it on AUR and it seems to do the trick in grand fashion but that is with a small amount of nethash in the sandbox. I need a live chain to test it on. So considering the vast amount of request I have received to take out this 50% premine scam, I thought it would be a good candidate to test on.

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins. In particular, my ol' buddy Kelsey lost a ton last year in GME LOL. Block 5400 or when ever KGW kicks in will be the starting point. This will give all of you enough time to either cold store your AUR or dump them until the chain is fixed, if it can be after the test.

~BCX~

I think this is a great idea because the entire thing is being announced publicly.

I am surprised anyone would speak out against this. If a flaw can be found in a coin, it should be found and stomped on hard so it can be fixed. You do realize that if BitcoinEXpress could find it, then technically anyone could, and they most likely would NOT be out in the open about it.

It's like a public science experiment. If it takes down AuroraCoin, then how many other coins does that save in the future? A lot.

BitcoinEXpress is doing a service to the cryptocoin community because he is being open about everything.

You have to find the flaws before you can correct them. And I sure would want the coins I invest in to be flawless and unhackable for the utmost confidence in it.

Thanks, BitcoinEXpress. I look forward to your findings.

[colinistheman]

I am surprised anyone would speak out against this. If a flaw can be found in a coin, it should be found and stomped on hard so it can be fixed. You do realize that if BitcoinEXpress could find it, then technically anyone could, and they most likely would NOT be out in the open about it.

Those people are the early bagholders who are only concerned with the profits they will make at a theoretical second peak. They bought in early and the coin's life and future means nothing to them.

~BCX~

Ohh, that makes more sense now. I couldn't even figure out why they wouldn't want you to do this! Lol, of course-- their own money is at stake. Makes perfect sense now.

It's true: You definitely have to have the greatest good (meaning not greed) in mind for coins to support your efforts. Which I do.

It's not like anyone can stop you anyway. So do well and let us know the results of your experiment!

[s1gs3gv]

I am surprised anyone would speak out against this. If a flaw can be found in a coin, it should be found and stomped on hard so it can be fixed. You do realize that if BitcoinEXpress could find it, then technically anyone could, and they most likely would NOT be out in the open about it.

Those people are the early bagholders who are only concerned with the profits they will make at a theoretical second peak. They bought in early and the coin's life and future means nothing to them.

~BCX~

You can use this exact same argument to justify all sorts of malfeasance. Its the old worn out 'The End Justifies The Means' argument.
If you accept this argument, then you presumably accept that it is ok to hack into exchanges and steal other people's coins so that exchanges will be more secure in the future.

The basic problem with this argument is that you need to be able to accurately predict 'The End' and assert that it is better than the alternatives.
Unfortunately, people aren't born with crystal balls and have a hard time predicting what is going to happen in 5 minutes, let alone in the distant future.

~~XCB~~

[colinistheman]

I am surprised anyone would speak out against this. If a flaw can be found in a coin, it should be found and stomped on hard so it can be fixed. You do realize that if BitcoinEXpress could find it, then technically anyone could, and they most likely would NOT be out in the open about it.

Those people are the early bagholders who are only concerned with the profits they will make at a theoretical second peak. They bought in early and the coin's life and future means nothing to them.

~BCX~

You can use this exact same argument to justify all sorts of malfeasance. Its the old worn out 'The End Justifies The Means' argument.
If you accept this argument, then you presumably accept that it is ok to hack into exchanges and steal other people's coins so that exchanges will be more secure in the future.

The basic problem with this argument is that you need to be able to accurately predict 'The End' and assert that it is better than the alternatives.
Unfortunately, people aren't born with crystal balls and have a hard time predicting what is going to happen in 5 minutes, let alone in the distant future.

~~XCB~~

I don't think your argument makes sense. I completely understand that you don't want him to do anything unjust. But honestly, if he doesn't exploit a loophole, then someone else will-- Someone else who is not as open about it.

It's like choosing to live with a blindfold on if you don't want him to continue.

[s1gs3gv]

Really, you guys are just a bunch of drama queenies

~~XCB~~

[colinistheman]

Really, you guys are just a bunch of drama queenies

~~XCB~~

You post with insults and emotion in every post. Shame on you. How much do you have invested in AUR? Probably a lot!

BitcoinEXpress is offering a tremendous service to the community as a whole. As an analogy, he is finding the next "bitcoin malleability" issue in advance, and posting his findings publicly. What an asset to the community!

[s1gs3gv]

But honestly, if he doesn't exploit a loophole, then someone else wil

You could use this argument to justify any action.

I'm not against testing, I am against testing on live blockchains when the testing could result in losses to AUR owners.
And no, I'm not a bagholder.

[s1gs3gv]

Really, you guys are just a bunch of drama queenies

~~XCB~~

You post with insults and emotion in every post. Shame on you. How much do you have invested in AUR? Probably a lot!

BitcoinEXpress is offering a tremendous service to the community as a whole. As an analogy, he is finding the next "bitcoin malleability" issue in advance, and posting his findings publicly. What an asset to the community!

BCX is a moralist in the anglo-saxon tradition.
You are just confused.

[colinistheman]

But honestly, if he doesn't exploit a loophole, then someone else wil

You could use this argument to justify any action.

I'm not against testing, I am against testing on live blockchains when the testing could result in losses to AUR owners.
And no, I'm not a bagholder.

So what's the beef? He can test on the livenet, but the real network is the true test because it has the actual network hashrate.

[colinistheman]

BCX is a moralist in the anglo-saxon tradition.
You are just confused.

Cryptocurrency is in the land of the ungoverned. It is a lawless society based on computer mathematics. Your morals sound good, but your logic does not.

This is my last post in this thread for today. Good luck BitcoinEXpress.

[s1gs3gv]

BCX is a moralist in the anglo-saxon tradition.
You are just confused.

Cryptocurrency is in the land of the ungoverned. It is a lawless society based on computer mathematics. Your morals sound good, but your logic does not.

In your dreams Bubba !

~~XCX~~

[kalus]

I think this is a great idea because the entire thing is being announced publicly.

I am surprised anyone would speak out against this. If a flaw can be found in a coin, it should be found and stomped on hard so it can be fixed. You do realize that if BitcoinEXpress could find it, then technically anyone could, and they most likely would NOT be out in the open about it.

people fail to understand security through obscurity is no security at all.

many of the aur boosters itt are so afraid their coin will fail they aim to quash ANY discussion that might put their currency of the week in a bad light, rather than fixing the problems and addressing the fundamental flaws in their currency strategy.  

[colinistheman]

I think this is a great idea because the entire thing is being announced publicly.

I am surprised anyone would speak out against this. If a flaw can be found in a coin, it should be found and stomped on hard so it can be fixed. You do realize that if BitcoinEXpress could find it, then technically anyone could, and they most likely would NOT be out in the open about it.

people fail to understand security through obscurity is no security at all.

many of the aur boosters itt are so afraid their coin will fail they aim to quash ANY discussion that might put their currency of the week in a bad light, rather than fixing the problems and addressing the fundamental flaws in their currency strategy.  

Totally! I am glad there are some sane heads around.

Also, just to prove the point that what BitcoinEXpress is doing is a good thing, I took this quote directly off auroracoin.org: "The premined coins will be distributed to the entire population of Iceland, commencing on midnight 25th of March 2014."

Now-- here is a multiple choice question for s1gs3gv and all who oppose what BitcoinEXpress is doing. It's a simple test with only two choices, A or B.

Is it for the greater good to:

A.) Fully test the potential currency of an entire country BEFORE releasing it broadly to all of Iceland's population?
B.) or AFTER it has been broadly distributed to an entire population?





Choosing B is actually criminal.

[LTEX]

This is my last post in this thread for today. Good luck BitcoinEXpress.

To the above poster, just a quote from your recent work.... Not really a man of your word I see?

[s1gs3gv]

Many crystal balls. Such proud ethics. Very fervor.
Many crusaders and evangelists everywhere .

[illodin]

Cryptocurrency is in the land of the ungoverned. It is a lawless society based on computer mathematics. Your morals sound good, but your logic does not.

Good luck with that attitude if real monetary damages are being caused.

[LTEX]

I think this is a great idea because the entire thing is being announced publicly.

I am surprised anyone would speak out against this. If a flaw can be found in a coin, it should be found and stomped on hard so it can be fixed. You do realize that if BitcoinEXpress could find it, then technically anyone could, and they most likely would NOT be out in the open about it.

people fail to understand security through obscurity is no security at all.

many of the aur boosters itt are so afraid their coin will fail they aim to quash ANY discussion that might put their currency of the week in a bad light, rather than fixing the problems and addressing the fundamental flaws in their currency strategy.  

Your statement is true, but wouldn't it be more logical if BCX just be "out in the open about it" for real? I mean. If answer A to the question asked by Colinstheman is the only truthful one, shouldn't BCX be really open about his findings and contribute to the improvement of the security rather than ranting about how he will prove how he is so good in destroying "an entire nations coin" ??

It's like Putin bombing the hell out of the Ukraine and saying "hey, I told you I could do it, stop wining! If I hadn't done it someone else would have. It's because they are weak!"

[s1gs3gv]

Cryptocurrency is in the land of the ungoverned. It is a lawless society based on computer mathematics. Your morals sound good, but your logic does not.

Good luck with that attitude if real monetary damages are being caused.

This ^^^

Anyway, it looks like ~BCX~ has realized that he is unable to justify his actions and has backed off of his threat against AUR holders.

[kalus]

people fail to understand security through obscurity is no security at all.

many of the aur boosters itt are so afraid their coin will fail they aim to quash ANY discussion that might put their currency of the week in a bad light, rather than fixing the problems and addressing the fundamental flaws in their currency strategy.

Your statement is true, but wouldn't it be more logical if BCX just be "out in the open about it" for real? I mean. If answer A to the question asked by Colinstheman is the only truthful one, shouldn't BCX be really open about his findings and contribute to the improvement of the security

yes! That's the purpose of this thread.  you're aware of the stress test because of this thread, and BCX didn't keep it a secret.  some people (nite69, boristhespider) are taking this thread for good use, and are discussing solutions ITT.  However, you, s1gs3gv, and a few others are trolling this thread, and are actively trying to suppress anyone disagreeing with the auroracoin party line.  

By spending your energy criticizing BCX you solve none of the problems with the coin design, the airdrop, and the poor network hashrate of auroracoin.

take your own advice, and allow people to discuss improvements to security, rather than attacking the messenger and attempting to stop discussion of problems with auroracoin.  

rather than ranting about how he will prove how he is so good in destroying "an entire nations coin" ??

please show us where the nation of iceland has officially accepted this coin as their national currency.  Without this, you and the Panamanian developer are essentially imposing your financial will on a sovereign nation. 

It's like Putin bombing the hell out of the Ukraine and saying "hey, I told you I could do it, stop wining!"

so where would mining a blockchain equate to bombing and killing civilians?  hell of a strawman you're constructing here.  

[sonysasankan]

Cryptocurrency is in the land of the ungoverned. It is a lawless society based on computer mathematics. Your morals sound good, but your logic does not.

Good luck with that attitude if real monetary damages are being caused.

This ^^^

Anyway, it looks like ~BCX~ has realized that he is unable to justify his actions and has backed off of his threat against AUR holders.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!! Or maybe he just doesnt feed trolls. Ahhh... can you smell that popcorn? 

[s1gs3gv]

another ~BCT~ sock puppet exhibiting all the signs of independent thinking

~~LOL~~

[Crypto-t]

[s1gs3gv]

I didn't threaten anyone, just giving notice of testing an exploit I think exist in AUR when KGW is rolled out.

Why am I giving notice? Simply because in the past when I use alt coin chains as test subjects, people tend to lose coins.
~BCX~

Does not compute.

~~LOL~~

[pjviitas]

Look...the guy has all the right in the world to cripple Auroracoin...its not illegal.  Auroracoin is not legal tender.

Even if some country wanted to try and indict him I doubt anyone one extradite him...so he is basically safe.

In the mean time I still haven't had anyone volunteer to give me any pointers on how to put my AUR into offline cold storage.

[anderl]

microwaved a new batch of jiffypop.

[cryptohunter]

LOL

....Fear - the city is rank with it.

[Nite69]

Look...the guy has all the right in the world to cripple Auroracoin...its not illegal.  Auroracoin is not legal tender.

Even if some country wanted to try and indict him I doubt anyone one extradite him...so he is basically safe.

In the mean time I still haven't had anyone volunteer to give me any pointers on how to put my AUR into offline cold storage.

Just run a client on a virtual machine, or some old PC or laptop everyone has a pile of in their closets, send your coins to that wallet, (optionally:wait till they are there) and then turn it off.

[colinistheman]

Look...the guy has all the right in the world to cripple Auroracoin...its not illegal.  Auroracoin is not legal tender.

Even if some country wanted to try and indict him I doubt anyone one extradite him...so he is basically safe.

In the mean time I still haven't had anyone volunteer to give me any pointers on how to put my AUR into offline cold storage.

Just run a client on a virtual machine, or some old PC or laptop everyone has a pile of in their closets, send your coins to that wallet, (optionally:wait till they are there) and then turn it off.

Or just print a bunch of paper wallets and send your coins there. That's probably the easiest way.

You can see the private keys by going to your Aurora QT client console and typing 'dumpprivkey [public key]'

Then print these out on paper and send your coins to them.

Important note: You would want to do the generation of the new key(s) on an offline computer and delete the wallet.dat file when you are done.

[colinistheman]

just waiting for block 5400.

Excellent. It looks like Aurora has 718 blocks to go. They are 10 minute blocks, so that means there's about 5 days left to wait.

Question for BitcoinEXpress: I noticed you are waiting for AUR coin to newly implement KGW. Does this mean that your method of exploit won't work on an existing coins' KGW that have been in use for a while?

If your answer is that it makes no difference when KGW is implemented for this exploit to work, then why don't you just do it on the pettiest coin you can find that already has KGW? Plus, that way you don't have to wait 5 more days.

[lunas]

If he follows through with this he is doing aurora coin for several reasons some he has posted here.

[colinistheman]

just waiting for block 5400.

Excellent. It looks like Aurora has 718 blocks to go. They are 10 minute blocks, so that means there's about 5 days left to wait.

Question for BitcoinEXpress: I noticed you are waiting for AUR coin to newly implement KGW. Does this mean that your method of exploit won't work on an existing coins' KGW that have been in use for a while?

If your answer is that it makes no difference when KGW is implemented for this exploit to work, then why don't you just do it on the pettiest coin you can find that already has KGW? Plus, that way you don't have to wait 5 more days.

I know for a fact it works on KGC as I sandbox tested it.

AUR devs had made this personal that's why.

For all I know this might not work on a live chain with decent hashrate, but I don't think the hashrate will effect anything.

We'll see.
~BCX~

Ok i see. Revenge is not always a good tactic, but nevertheless thanks for the explanation.

[Trinibits]

I wonder how damaging this will be for the crypto currency reputation with the public who are now getting to know about this exciting world. Auroracoin now has media exposure and if the coin is taken out due to vulnerability issues with KGW the media is going to have a field day with this and in the bigger picture strengthen any argument the banks and public have against us.
I personally support this coin and have faith in it but I also believe that scam coins need to be given the boot. If I was going to pull down scam coins I would choose one not in the media's eye so that cypto currency's reputation remains in tact and that future devs better think twice before releasing scam coins because they will get shut down quick time.
However if Auroracoin does turn out to be a scam coin its a real shame. If the air drop dont happen then I would be first man calling for BCX to pull down this coin. At this point If I knew how to fuck up the scene I would give it the benefit of the doubt up till air drop day.
Just a thought

[LTEX]

There is no logical solution for the "Air drop" being anything other than a scam or better said a laundering mechanism for the premine. This is amplified by the fact the AUR Devs have categorically refused to even consider moving the premine to a trusted third party escrow and removing themselves from the air drop. There is one reason they won't.


~BCX~

Man you have a huge block of concrete around your brains! I have tried several times to answer this in a decent and logical manner, maybe if I put it up in big read letter, will that help?

I agree 100% with you that having a trusted third party controlling the airdrop would help a lot to support trust to this campaign. But then comes the logical question: Who is going to be this third party?

I don't think it can be an escrow from this forum. As I stated before, where lies the trust in a forum member that has a fictive name and says in his profile he is a 12 year old girl?

So, it obviously needs to be a well respected openly and publicly known member of real society. Even if we can find such a person willing to take up the burden, it will be a bad choice. Why? Because the pre mined coins can then be easily seized by Government, banks or criminals!

So that's why it is perfectly logical to me that Dev doesn't use third party and keeps anonymous until the airdrop has been put into motion. I am one of few who has actual insight in the plan and have no doubt it will work perfectly, also in a way all transfers from pre mined addresses actually transparently get to the Icelandic people.

[LTEX]

@LTEX

If the plan is so sure to work and so transparent then why not put it out there for the world to see?

Because there isn't one that's why.

Mate, you're pissing on people's legs and telling them it's raining.


~BCX~

And again, once more, you ignore the sensible answer and go of at a different assumption.... You really are communicational impaired my friend. Hope you get well, someday...

[LTEX]

@LTEX

If the plan is so sure to work and so transparent then why not put it out there for the world to see?

Because there isn't one that's why.

Mate, you're pissing on people's legs and telling them it's raining.


~BCX~

And to address your aversive assumption as well:

This has also been answered many times by me to you. It is the same reason you don't fully disclose your detailed plan to attack after block 5400. If the (brilliantly simple by the way) plan gets out to soon, unethical hackers like yourselves will probably try to take advantage of that knowledge and disrupt it! Again sensible and logical reasoning!

[LTEX]

Mate, you're pissing on people's legs and telling them it's raining.

~BCX~

Like you are screaming out on all threads every day it's going to rain and pad yourself on the back once you accidentally get it right, ignoring all the days you were wrong.

Really, if you want to keep at this, get out your bowl of popcorn mate! Meanwhile I am going back to actually contribute to something worthwhile...

[Spiffy_1]

if u want a hand stress testing let me know what to do.. im up for finding exploits and getting them fixed so crypto is stronger

[LTEX]

Mate, you're pissing on people's legs and telling them it's raining.

~BCX~

Like you are screaming out on all threads every day it's going to rain and pad yourself on the back once you accidentally get it right, ignoring all the days you were wrong.

Really, if you want to keep at this, get out your bowl of popcorn mate! Meanwhile I am going back to actually contribute to something worthwhile...

TRANSLATION: I just got my ass kicked.


~BCX~

Hence, Tiny brains, loads of concrete!

[colinistheman]

This is quite an emotional thread

[s1gs3gv]

I wonder how damaging this will be for the crypto currency reputation with the public who are now getting to know about this exciting world. Auroracoin now has media exposure and if the coin is taken out due to vulnerability issues with KGW the media is going to have a field day with this and in the bigger picture strengthen any argument the banks and public have against us.
I personally support this coin and have faith in it but I also believe that scam coins need to be given the boot. If I was going to pull down scam coins I would choose one not in the media's eye so that cypto currency's reputation remains in tact and that future devs better think twice before releasing scam coins because they will get shut down quick time.
However if Auroracoin does turn out to be a scam coin its a real shame. If the air drop dont happen then I would be first man calling for BCX to pull down this coin. At this point If I knew how to fuck up the scene I would give it the benefit of the doubt up till air drop day.
Just a thought

Probably not any more damaging than the other two dozen coins, pools or several exchanges I have wiped out over the past three years.

~BCX~

Just making a public copy of your statement.

[kalus]

So that's why it is perfectly logical to me that Dev doesn't use third party and keeps anonymous until the airdrop has been put into motion. I am one of few who has actual insight in the plan and have no doubt it will work perfectly, also in a way all transfers from pre mined addresses actually transparently get to the Icelandic people.

Like you are screaming out on all threads every day it's going to rain and pad yourself on the back once you accidentally get it right, ignoring all the days you were wrong.

It is the same reason you don't fully disclose your detailed plan to attack after block 5400.

Again, to be absolutely sure no one can try to manipulate or hack the process, for the same reasons it is logical that the exact details of the plan remain undisclosed up to shortly before airdrop commences.

Hold yourself to the same standards you demand of BCX, you fucking hypocrite.  

[gnode]

The suspense builds! Less than 5 days. I can't wait!! This is a great plot for one of the crime shows, maybe Bones or Criminal Minds?

[s1gs3gv]

The suspense builds! Less than 5 days. I can't wait!! This is a great plot for one of the crime shows, maybe Bones or Criminal Minds?

this ^^^

off topic: some of the snakes around here like to post malicious feedback in an attempt to discredit people they don't agree with ROFL

[kalus]

off topic: some of the snakes around here like to post malicious feedback in an attempt to discredit people they don't agree with ROFL

well you sure taught him a lesson

[s1gs3gv]

Well that concludes this part of my research for my article on crypto-currencies. Very educational !

Good luck folks, be good.  TDFN.

~~LOL~~

[Cryddit]

I wonder how damaging this will be for the crypto currency reputation with the public. ...

Probably not any more damaging than the other two dozen coins, pools or several exchanges I have wiped out over the past three years.

~BCX~

Just making a public copy of your statement.

You're missing the point here.  If he can destroy a block chain or an exchange or a pool, then they were doing it wrong and deserved to be destroyed.

This is a service that good security pays handsomely for.  It's called testing.  People who are afraid of testing are just those who fear that they have failed.  Testing means you can't keep your failure a secret any more and when you're asking people to trust you with their money that is a good thing.

[pjviitas]

Look...the guy has all the right in the world to cripple Auroracoin...its not illegal.  Auroracoin is not legal tender.

Even if some country wanted to try and indict him I doubt anyone one extradite him...so he is basically safe.

In the mean time I still haven't had anyone volunteer to give me any pointers on how to put my AUR into offline cold storage.

Just run a client on a virtual machine, or some old PC or laptop everyone has a pile of in their closets, send your coins to that wallet, (optionally:wait till they are there) and then turn it off.

I don't see how this will help if the blockchain gets destroyed.

[hozer]

@LTEX

If the plan is so sure to work and so transparent then why not put it out there for the world to see?

Because there isn't one that's why.

Mate, you're pissing on people's legs and telling them it's raining.


~BCX~

And to address your aversive assumption as well:

This has also been answered many times by me to you. It is the same reason you don't fully disclose your detailed plan to attack after block 5400. If the (brilliantly simple by the way) plan gets out to soon, unethical hackers like yourselves will probably try to take advantage of that knowledge and disrupt it! Again sensible and logical reasoning!

Your batting average at being wrong is 100%.

I have openly discussed the issue and exploit with Nite69 and Boristhespider who are working on a solution.

I even offered to test it when they finish it.

Now fuck off and join a large fraternity of idiots pwnd by your's truly.


~BCX~

I know KGW is completely borked, it depends on floating point, and most cryptocoin people don't seem to begin to comprehend floating point rounding.
But jeezus, my fricking popcorn is running out, so post the fucking code on http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/ already.

So what do I have to do to get you to exploit the half-assed broken algorithm we have on catcoin? Is it cheaper to offer you a consulting fee for public exploits, or do I have to piss you off enough?

[LTEX]

@LTEX

If the plan is so sure to work and so transparent then why not put it out there for the world to see?

Because there isn't one that's why.

Mate, you're pissing on people's legs and telling them it's raining.


~BCX~

And to address your aversive assumption as well:

This has also been answered many times by me to you. It is the same reason you don't fully disclose your detailed plan to attack after block 5400. If the (brilliantly simple by the way) plan gets out to soon, unethical hackers like yourselves will probably try to take advantage of that knowledge and disrupt it! Again sensible and logical reasoning!

Your batting average at being wrong is 100%.

I have openly discussed the issue and exploit with Nite69 and Boristhespider who are working on a solution.

I even offered to test it when they finish it.

Now fuck off and join a large fraternity of idiots pwnd by your's truly.


~BCX~

If you want me to give a complete summary of all factual post you have made in this thread I will, but for now, if anyone can see one single real detailed disclosure from you in here that gives open and complete insight in how you are going to do it I give them 100BTC right away. Yes Nite69 and Boristhespider have been doing a great job at this, buy you sir, you have only managed to produce nothing more than a wet fart!

So far at least Balduro has put in real effort to create something good and has gone out of his way to try and be as open about his plans as possible without endangering some security issues. You on the other hand have only ranted about a so called attack without any details or disclosure. Only ranting Fud and trying to scare of people with empty shells. No actual facts have been given, just twisted assumptions and diversions from sensible answers given by me.

So stop wasting our time and popcorn and DO what you rant about. Maybe then I might generate some respect for you. Thus far, to me, you are the embodiment of your own wet farts!

[srs2xcvbnm]

I know KGW is completely borked, it depends on floating point, and most cryptocoin people don't seem to begin to comprehend floating point rounding.
But jeezus, my fricking popcorn is running out, so post the fucking code on http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/ already.

So what do I have to do to get you to exploit the half-assed broken algorithm we have on catcoin? Is it cheaper to offer you a consulting fee for public exploits, or do I have to piss you off enough?

Nothing you can do. More crypto doesn't interest me.

I have a method to my schizo decision making on which coins I take an interest in.

Not interested in Catcoin.

Actually I like cats.


~BCX~

Wow, you sir are a one prime pompous ass    (biggest I ever seen in my entire life!)


When you finally decide to pull your head out of your own ass, and come back to planet Earth,
just make sure to delete all your shitty posts.

Have a good and non-schizo day, kind sir.



And to all panic sellers that fall for all this bullshit- I'm sorry but you must be broken beyond repair already.

[IB]

There is no logical solution for the "air drop" being anything other than a scam or better said a laundering mechanism for the premine. This is amplified by the fact the AUR Devs have categorically refused to even consider moving the premine to a trusted third party escrow and removing themselves from the air drop. There is one reason they won't.

Add in the fact there is no plan in place to perform a logistics miracle and notify 330,000 Icelandic residents, educate them on what crypto is and disburse the coins in an accurate manner. in less than 11 days...

The airdrop concept is a very logically constructed method of distribution. Whether or not this would be a scam is not a factor in this. The way it is executed could lead one to believe it creates an indication that something may not be quite right (read: scam), but the idea itself nowhere near necessarilly constitutes it.

How would you see this happen, in order for it to be something trustworthy in your view? What would you consider a trusted third party escrow?

[IB]

...And since you implicitely stated you are ethical, BCX... is there not a way to test this, without damage, from where you could constructively aid the developer in strengthening the code? (this is an actual question)

I'm sure you wouldn't be inclined to help something you don't trust, but as I read it, your only objection is the airdrop... Should you know the plan behind the airdrop, or the airdrop take place with the use of an escrow, would that change your mind?

To take your worries away the developer could let you in on the exact details of the airdrop plan... It's too bad that, looking at the contents of this thread, there are probably alot of people that would consider that a worrying idea.

[LTEX]

...And since you implicitely stated you are ethical, BCX... is there not a way to test this, without damage, from where you could constructively aid the developer in strengthening the code? (this is an actual question)

I'm sure you wouldn't be inclined to help something you don't trust, but as I read it, your only objection is the airdrop... Should you know the plan behind the airdrop, or the airdrop take place with the use of an escrow, would that change your mind?

To take your worries away the developer could let you in on the exact details of the airdrop plan... It's too bad that, looking at the contents of this thread, there are probably alot of people that would consider that a worrying idea.

The problem is that BCX is not in this for any good reason other than to satisfy his humongous Ego! We could get Max Keiser to create a wallet live on his show and let Balduro transfer the premined coins to that wallet on live television and this guy would still be screaming "it's still a scam because he knows for a fact that Max = Balduro and thus the fact remains, its a scam"

It took me some time and effort, but I have finally figured out that BCX is a self centered moron!

[niothor]

I don't get it why the Aur supporters are so angry

1) If the threat is full of bullshit why are you so amd? It keeps the price low for you to acquire more due to FUD  and when the test will fail, the coin will rocket
2) If the exploit is real it's obvious that even if it isn't conducted by BCX somebody else will be able to do it. And if you know this and you still support the coin you're plain stupid.

[LTEX]

I don't get it why the Aur supporters are so angry

1) If the threat is full of bullshit why are you so amd? It keeps the price low for you to acquire more due to FUD  and when the test will fail, the coin will rocket
2) If the exploit is real it's obvious that even if it isn't conducted by BCX somebody else will be able to do it. And if you know this and you still support the coin you're plain stupid.

That is a fair statement Niothor. I'm not angry, just a little fed up with all the BS BCX keeps landing on these threads. If you look back at our discussions you can see I seriously and decently tried to reply to his assumptions over and over. Now it has become clear to me that it is in no way BCX's plan to do any constructive contribution what so ever, he's just in it for the attention.

And I'm really not wasting my valuable time bashing at his "wet farts", it just became one of my new hobbies

I see that you have cured your allergies btw, congrats on that ;-)

[French_Coin_Corporation]

Look...the guy has all the right in the world to cripple Auroracoin...its not illegal.  Auroracoin is not legal tender.

Even if some country wanted to try and indict him I doubt anyone one extradite him...so he is basically safe.

In the mean time I still haven't had anyone volunteer to give me any pointers on how to put my AUR into offline cold storage.

Just run a client on a virtual machine, or some old PC or laptop everyone has a pile of in their closets, send your coins to that wallet, (optionally:wait till they are there) and then turn it off.

Or just print a bunch of paper wallets and send your coins there. That's probably the easiest way.

You can see the private keys by going to your Aurora QT client console and typing 'dumpprivkey [public key]'

Then print these out on paper and send your coins to them.

Important note: You would want to do the generation of the new key(s) on an offline computer and delete the wallet.dat file when you are done.

J'adore le "tout simplement" )

[colinistheman]

I wonder how damaging this will be for the crypto currency reputation with the public. ...

Probably not any more damaging than the other two dozen coins, pools or several exchanges I have wiped out over the past three years.
~BCX~

Just making a public copy of your statement.

You're missing the point here.  If he can destroy a block chain or an exchange or a pool, then they were doing it wrong and deserved to be destroyed.
This is a service that good security pays handsomely for.  It's called testing.  People who are afraid of testing are just those who fear that they have failed.  Testing means you can't keep your failure a secret any more and when you're asking people to trust you with their money that is a good thing.

^ Such a good point.

[colinistheman]

I don't get it why the Aur supporters are so angry

1) If the threat is full of bullshit why are you so mad? It keeps the price low for you to acquire more due to FUD  and when the test will fail, the coin will rocket
2) If the exploit is real it's obvious that even if it isn't conducted by BCX somebody else will be able to do it. And if you know this and you still support the coin you're plain stupid.

^ Exactly! Another man of intelligence and rationality. And in the case of #2 above, if someone else exploited AUR instead of BitcoinEXpress, it could be after the airdrop and imagine how many angry Icelanders you would have then. That would surely give AUR a worse name than if it was discovered and crushed now. The people of that country deserve a sound currency. So let's see if it holds up to the testing!

That is a fair statement Niothor. I'm not angry, just a little fed up with all the BS BCX keeps landing on these threads.
And I'm really not wasting my valuable time bashing at his "wet farts", it just became one of my new hobbies

^ You are attracted to this thread like a fly goes to shit. Why do you keep coming back if you are so fed up? Just don't click on this thread! (Save us from your replies)

[shtako]

I wonder how damaging this will be for the crypto currency reputation with the public. ...

Probably not any more damaging than the other two dozen coins, pools or several exchanges I have wiped out over the past three years.
~BCX~

Just making a public copy of your statement.

You're missing the point here.  If he can destroy a block chain or an exchange or a pool, then they were doing it wrong and deserved to be destroyed.
This is a service that good security pays handsomely for.  It's called testing.  People who are afraid of testing are just those who fear that they have failed.  Testing means you can't keep your failure a secret any more and when you're asking people to trust you with their money that is a good thing.

^ Such a good point.

QFT. This is without any doubt a good thing.

[LTEX]

That is a fair statement Niothor. I'm not angry, just a little fed up with all the BS BCX keeps landing on these threads.
And I'm really not wasting my valuable time bashing at his "wet farts", it just became one of my new hobbies

^ You are attracted to this thread like a fly goes to shit. Why do you keep coming back if you are so fed up? Just don't click on this thread! (Save us from your replies)

What, and miss out on all the fun? Grant a man his hobby mate! I even bought my selves some popcorn 

And it's not the bullshit that attracts the flies, its the smell from all the wet farts!

[LTEX]

I don't get it why the Aur supporters are so angry

1) If the threat is full of bullshit why are you so amd? It keeps the price low for you to acquire more due to FUD  and when the test will fail, the coin will rocket
2) If the exploit is real it's obvious that even if it isn't conducted by BCX somebody else will be able to do it. And if you know this and you still support the coin you're plain stupid.

^ Exactly! Another man of intelligence and rationality. And in the case of #2 above, if someone else exploited AUR instead of BitcoinEXpress, it could be after the airdrop and imagine how many angry Icelanders you would have then. That would surely give AUR a worse name than if it was discovered and crushed now. The people of that country deserve a sound currency. So let's see if it holds up to the testing!

That is a fair statement Niothor. I'm not angry, just a little fed up with all the BS BCX keeps landing on these threads.
And I'm really not wasting my valuable time bashing at his "wet farts", it just became one of my new hobbies

^ You are attracted to this thread like a fly goes to shit. Why do you keep coming back if you are so fed up? Just don't click on this thread! (Save us from your replies)

It's fairly apparent that LTEX is one of the AUR devs or closely related to the core team that only wants to get this chain to the air drop and make bank. They have no long term plans for this coin.


~BCX~

DEV? No sire!
Serious supporter of the initiative? Yes your highness
Maybe also in it to make a few bucks? Affirmative mon Generale!
In it for the long term? You bet ya!
After more than a week of trying decently, still taking you serious? Nope!

[Lloydie]

if u want a hand stress testing let me know what to do.. im up for finding exploits and getting them fixed so crypto is stronger

That's just the point LTEX and the other AUR devs are trying to avoid. They want all of this quiet because this is a short term, pump and dump at air drop situation. It has been explained to them by a few people that they are going to massively "air drop" a large portion of coins into an known unsecure chain.

Why?

Because they want to launder the premine only.

There are no long term plans for AUR.


~BCX~

Seeing the world through your own crooked perspective. But do go ahead and stress test kgw, I'm interested in seeing any weaknesses pop up. Stratum exploit closed off and checkpoints will be in place. I doubt you can do any real damage.

[Biggen]

I am a little confused on how someone can flagrantly flaunt the idea of purposely crippling a network and not be in prison.  Calling it a "stress test" or not doesn't mean it is any less or more legal.

You will end up picking a fight with the wrong person eventually...

[Cryddit]

The question is not whether someone intends to take it down.  The question is whether it is constructed well enough to stay up anyway.  This is at least theoretically financial software here.  If someone's effort to take it down even matters, then it is worthless.

If someone can take it down then the stakeholders cannot rely on it being secure against thieves.  And more importantly, they NEVER could have relied on it being secure.

[s1gs3gv]

I wonder how damaging this will be for the crypto currency reputation with the public. ...

Probably not any more damaging than the other two dozen coins, pools or several exchanges I have wiped out over the past three years.

~BCX~

Just making a public copy of your statement.

You're missing the point here.  If he can destroy a block chain or an exchange or a pool, then they were doing it wrong and deserved to be destroyed.

This is a service that good security pays handsomely for.  It's called testing.  People who are afraid of testing are just those who fear that they have failed.  Testing means you can't keep your failure a secret any more and when you're asking people to trust you with their money that is a good thing.

Well, now that some tard who can't win an honest argument loaded me up with malicious negative feedback, i'm reluctant to participate in this argument further. This forum is dominated by snakes, the criminally minded, the idle nouveau riche and the ignorant. I think all the good points have been made already.

But in passing, while I work on my article, let me just say that all the people claiming that ~BCX~ has a right to smash and grab AUR if AUR has exploitable weaknesses should man up and admit that they think that it would be ok for someone to do a smash and grab on a bank or a Brinks van because it illustrates weaknesses in bank security.

~~TDFN~~

[IB]

If you could spare the time, would you answer my questions, BCX?

How would you see this happen, in order for it to be something trustworthy in your view? What would you consider a trusted third party escrow?

Is there no way to test this, without damage, from where you could constructively aid the developer in strengthening the code? (this is an actual question)

I'm sure you wouldn't be inclined to help something you don't trust, but as I read it, your only objection is the airdrop... Should you know the plan behind the airdrop, or the airdrop take place with the use of an escrow, would that change your mind?

[s1gs3gv]

I am a little confused on how someone can flagrantly flaunt the idea of purposely crippling a network and not be in prison.  Calling it a "stress test" or not doesn't mean it is any less or more legal.

You will end up picking a fight with the wrong person eventually...

AFAIKT it is all just braggadocio and posing. There is no evidence anywhere (other than anecdotal) that he has done, or is capable of doing, any of the things he claims or threatens.

~~^^^~~

[LTEX]

If you could spare the time, would you answer my questions, BCX?

How would you see this happen, in order for it to be something trustworthy in your view? What would you consider a trusted third party escrow?

Is there no way to test this, without damage, from where you could constructively aid the developer in strengthening the code? (this is an actual question)

I'm sure you wouldn't be inclined to help something you don't trust, but as I read it, your only objection is the airdrop... Should you know the plan behind the airdrop, or the airdrop take place with the use of an escrow, would that change your mind?

Spare your energy my friend. He only answers to things he can use to grow his Ego. Your questions are to legit and already sensibly answered many times already, but he just keeps ignoring them. There is one thing he does in a briljant matter though:

[Lloydie]

Ltex, if you are reading this, go checkout modded kgw implementation at darkcoin. Will put an end to kgw speculation. Bcx can test his theories on another lesser valued coin.

[Nite69]

Ltex, if you are reading this, go checkout modded kgw implementation at darkcoin. Will put an end to kgw speculation. Bcx can test his theories on another lesser valued coin.

I don't see how darkcoin would be protected against time warp. It has retarget time 1 block and allows jump back in time for 6 blocks. Just generate 5 blocks stamped with long time intervals to get a low diff and then one block which gets you back to sync with official blcokchain. You get 40% of the official difficulty. Just repeat it until you get blocks almost for free so you can catch the official blockchain with your lousy miner. Then publish it and woohoo, your blockchain is now official blockchain.

All altcoins implementing 1 block retarget allowing blocks in the past are at risk.

[LTEX]

Ltex, if you are reading this, go checkout modded kgw implementation at darkcoin. Will put an end to kgw speculation. Bcx can test his theories on another lesser valued coin.

No worries there mate, BCX will fail! tnx for the tip though!

[Lloydie]

Ltex, if you are reading this, go checkout modded kgw implementation at darkcoin. Will put an end to kgw speculation. Bcx can test his theories on another lesser valued coin.

I don't see how darkcoin would be protected against time warp. It has retarget time 1 block and allows jump back in time for 6 blocks. Just generate 5 blocks stamped with long time intervals to get a low diff and then one block which gets you back to sync with official blcokchain. You get 40% of the official difficulty. Just repeat it until you get blocks almost for free so you can catch the official blockchain with your lousy miner. Then publish it and woohoo, your blockchain is now official blockchain.

All altcoins implementing 1 block retarget allowing blocks in the past are at risk.

Kgw at drk to be redone imminently. Btw, r u sure drk re target is 1 block? I thought 24 hours.

[Cryddit]

Here is a simple fix for the exploit.

When a block has an earlier timestamp than the previous block, its difficulty adjustment needs to be based on the difficulty of the most recent block its timestamp is later than rather than on the block immediately prior in the block chain.

For example, if a block has a time earlier than the last four blocks then it should start its difficulty calculations with the difficulty as it was before those four blocks.

I think that this makes every instance of the time warp exploit impossible.

And it's a simple adjustment to whatever difficulty algorithm you're using. Kgw included.

[colinistheman]

Here is a simple fix for the exploit.

When a block has an earlier timestamp than the previous block, its difficulty adjustment needs to be based on the difficulty of the most recent block its timestamp is later than rather than on the block immediately prior in the block chain.

For example, if a block has a time earlier than the last four blocks then it should start its difficulty calculations with the difficulty as it was before those four blocks.

I think that this makes every instance of the time warp exploit impossible.

And it's a simple adjustment to whatever difficulty algorithm you're using. Kgw included.

That sounds good. But I just thought of one scenario: What if the most recent block IS a block with a modified earlier timestamp?

[Cryddit]

Simple rule.  You go back to the most recent block that is timestamped earlier than the current one. Whether or not the previous block is also backward in time it's later than the current one or we wouldn't be calling the current block backward in time.

As for a modified block with a fake timestamp,  that can't happen because it would not match its hash.  Nobody would mistake that for a valid block.

[Starlightbreaker]

I am a little confused on how someone can flagrantly flaunt the idea of purposely crippling a network and not be in prison.  Calling it a "stress test" or not doesn't mean it is any less or more legal.

You will end up picking a fight with the wrong person eventually...

AFAIKT it is all just braggadocio and posing. There is no evidence anywhere (other than anecdotal) that he has done, or is capable of doing, any of the things he claims or threatens.

~~^^^~~

really?

you're lazy or just stupid? there's this function called "search", and look at past few years.

BCX basically killed plenty of coins and pools.


when he/she/it will do something, it will happen.

[Nite69]

Here is a simple fix for the exploit.

When a block has an earlier timestamp than the previous block, its difficulty adjustment needs to be based on the difficulty of the most recent block its timestamp is later than rather than on the block immediately prior in the block chain.

For example, if a block has a time earlier than the last four blocks then it should start its difficulty calculations with the difficulty as it was before those four blocks.

I think that this makes every instance of the time warp exploit impossible.

And it's a simple adjustment to whatever difficulty algorithm you're using. Kgw included.

Hmm.. One scenario where this would not work.. and maybe also that fix which would allow jump back 1 block:
1. Mine blocks to the future getting 10% lower diff every block.
2. When you are at the lowest diff, stay on that time by jumping forward-backward-forward-backward..
3. Repeat that until your block's time is in the real time window and publish it

For this to sucess, one must be able to generate blocks without going forward on time while keeping diff low. So jumping forward- backward has to generate higher diff/block than going forward only.  

Edit: Not sure but I think this scenario would not work; he would get 10% lower diff every time he goes forward, but 20% higher when backward -> he would end up very high diff shortly.

[Cryddit]

1. Mine blocks to the future getting 10% lower diff every block.
2. When you are at the lowest diff, stay on that time by jumping forward-backward-forward-backward..

For this to sucess, one must be able to generate blocks without going forward on time while keeping diff low. So jumping forward- backward has to generate higher diff/block than going forward only.  

Edit: Not sure but I think this scenario would not work; he would get 10% lower diff every time he goes forward, but 20% higher when backward -> he would end up very high diff shortly.

Exactly.  When you jump backward in time you undo any lowered diff you got by going forward in time.  And because backward is a negative interval, it counts as shorter than the minimum interval to get a maximum upward difficulty bump.  So the sequence is

Forward (lowers diff by 10%)
Backward (undoes that, and raises diff by 10%)
Forward (lowers diff by 10%)
Backward (undoes that, and raises diff by 10%)

etc...

If you do the forward/backward thing, you raise the difficulty by 10% each time you jump backward, so you rapidly get to the point where the main chain is producing blocks much faster than you.

[illodin]

So if KGW has this exploit, shouldn't all KGW coins put up a bounty for getting it fixed asap? Which coins have already fixed it btw?

[HiroS]

If this is due to being able to produce blocks in the future or the past the fix can be applied to the coin code to limit the acceptable difference in time between the blockchain and the block. Feathercoin saw massive time warp attacks pushing blocks on from yesterday. They coded for this and I have chosen to include this code in the coin I am launching tomorrow which uses KGW. The problem is that most coins leave the little code that manages time the same as where they forked it from but make block time and retargets quicker making them more exposed to attack.

[Nite69]

1. Mine blocks to the future getting 10% lower diff every block.
2. When you are at the lowest diff, stay on that time by jumping forward-backward-forward-backward..

For this to sucess, one must be able to generate blocks without going forward on time while keeping diff low. So jumping forward- backward has to generate higher diff/block than going forward only.  

Edit: Not sure but I think this scenario would not work; he would get 10% lower diff every time he goes forward, but 20% higher when backward -> he would end up very high diff shortly.

Exactly.  When you jump backward in time you undo any lowered diff you got by going forward in time.  And because backward is a negative interval, it counts as shorter than the minimum interval to get a maximum upward difficulty bump.  So the sequence is

Forward (lowers diff by 10%)
Backward (undoes that, and raises diff by 10%)
Forward (lowers diff by 10%)
Backward (undoes that, and raises diff by 10%)

etc...

If you do the forward/backward thing, you raise the difficulty by 10% each time you jump backward, so you rapidly get to the point where the main chain is producing blocks much faster than you.

Actually, the original bitcoin still has this vulnerability! However, I doubt any entity would be able to use it.

scenario:
- Miner has 10% of the total mining power
- He starts isolated mining with timestamps 25% over the normal, ie 12.5 minutes
- He continues 2 weeks (his blochaintime, would be 20 weeks realtime!), and gets 25% easier diff
- He continues next 2 weeks, gets again 25% easier diff
- repeats until diff is very low
- now he starts mining 5 blocks forward with 12.5 min interval and one block backward to the same moment (or 1 sec more). This keeps his diff low!

He continues this until real blockchain is on the same time. (might take years....)
He publishes his blockchain.

Edit: Would not work. The last step won't keep his diff low. Difficulty is retargeted every 2 weeks, so he will get 25% higher diff after every 2016 blocks. If retarget time is >= (mediumblocks-1)/2, it won't work.

[Cryddit]

Yeah, Bitcoin is safe because 2016 blocks is longer than the ~5 blocks or so that the median-of-last-11 blocks rule allows anyone to jump backward.  You can play silly buggers with timestamps but the effect of it will be small enough that it's pointless. The fix proposed above is for cryptocurrencies that have introduced a vulnerability by retargeting every block. 

[Cryddit]

BTCX, as dev of a not-yet-released altcoin, I admire your work on examining and revealing security flaws in altcoins. 

If/When I release, I'd really like you to have a crack or two at mine, just to make sure if I got it right and, if no breaks are found or if every break found is quickly fixed, increase long-term confidence.

The multi-petahash hash rate of Bitcoin is indeed excellent assurance against any "reasonable" attack. But as you have said, most people who thought they could "improve" on the design have instead demonstrated why the design is more robust than their improvements. 

The fact that ASIC mining rigs have reached the current standards for high-performance chips at 28nm also means that Bitcoin is relatively safe from further very rapid advances in mining rig speed or exploits by people who take advantage of higher tech.  The hash rate from here grows as fast as people acquire more machinery and as fast as computer hardware in general advances, rather than with the overwhelming advantage of faster machinery becoming available much more rapidly because people apply increasingly advanced process to it.

But the fact that those rigs exist is deadly for altcoins on SHA256; people with multi-Ghash mining rigs jump on and off of altcoins mining low difficulties with machinery that would, if it mined steadily, result in considerably higher difficulty.  Also the 51% attack -- even straight up with no exploits due to stupidity like the time warp attack -- is very hard to defend an altchain against.    So that's a real quandary for altcoin devs.  With an altcoin you can't take advantage of the SHA256 infrastructure because people who've invested $millions in hashing hardware have the ability to instead take advantage of you.

I keep looking at some variation on proof-of-stake, but the current implementations of PoS are all flawed (and all in more or less the same way) because people can use their stake to mine more than one branch of a chainfork simultaneously instead of committing to one or the other. 

[Cryddit]

Irrelevant to the AUR test I know, but I've been considering using AES256 as the basis of a "hash" function for the altcoin, because AES256 is built into hardware on most modern CPUs and so you could easily create mining software to take advantage of the capability.  Instead of incrementally building up to ASIC miners, we'd be starting with everybody having ASIC miners (with only as much parallelism as the CPU, but still significant). 

GPUs can do AES in parallel, but they don't have it built into hardware so even in parallel they're still not as fast as an 8-core CPU at it.  The eventual custom ASICs would build that massive parallelism, but I think an altcoin could be well established before they arise and inevitably centralize mining.

[Fdt]

It  may be possible to implement consensus based p2p checkpoints as some people mentioned previously.

[Cryddit]

Keep in mind, anything that is limited to the cpu level of mining will totally owned by the botnetters as soon as any coin becomes profitable.

Damn, you're right.  Idiots run Windows boxes and continually get Pwned by botnets. 

[Cryddit]

Even at that, botnets are keeping the chain secure and getting paid for it, just like regular miners.  The fact that they're stealing the compute power and electricity to do it doesn't directly affect the altcoin itself. 

It is kinda scummy though. 

[tromp]

Keep in mind, anything that is limited to the cpu level of mining will totally owned by the botnetters as soon as any coin becomes profitable.

I made a killing with XPM.

Not "anything". Just things that can run well on the average hardware and stay under the radar.

A proof-of-work system that uses 4+GB of memory will send the vast majority of botnet computers into swap-hell, resulting in

1) negligable hashing power
2) their owners realizing something is very wrong

[gnode]

When does the action start? St Patty's Day?

[anderl]

Yeah, Bitcoin is safe because 2016 blocks is longer than the ~5 blocks or so that the median-of-last-11 blocks rule allows anyone to jump backward.  You can play silly buggers with timestamps but the effect of it will be small enough that it's pointless. The fix proposed above is for cryptocurrencies that have introduced a vulnerability by retargeting every block. 

The only true security against any difficulty and/or tw exploits is multi-peta hash rate.


~BCX~

[Aboroth]

Please follow through with this and be successful. Auroracoin is a stupid, scammy coin with a stupid plan for stupid people.

[eduffield]

Due to exploits found in KGW, I've implemented a new difficulty retargeting algorithm called DarkGravityWave. You guys might be interested, it's a major improvement over KGW and a complete rewrite.

What is DarkGravityWave? It uses multiple exponential moving averages and a simple moving average to smoothly adjust the difficulty. This implementation is far more simplistic and better suited to adjust difficulty than KGW and also fixes all known exploits.

Check out the source if you're interested:
https://github.com/evan82/darkcoin/commit/07c99052edc617975cdcbe4482e02c52e2d1fbf5