A Resource Based Economy

[jtimon]

I thinks this video is very relevant to this conversation

But wait, wasn't hydroponics the best (scientifically proved) way to grow food?

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[jtimon]

Ey, watch out this video. She explains very well what's wrong with social engineering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_i3WOeqqzQ

[TiagoTiago]

Hm, that's not the meaning i usually associate with the term "social engineering"...

When i hear that the first thing that comes to my mind is this

[mobodick]

Hm, that's not the meaning i usually associate with the term "social engineering"...

When i hear that the first thing that comes to my mind is this

Yeah, it seems praxeology has a very narrow view of what the human brain is capable of.
It stems from old models of how the mind works and altho there are some nice observations about human nature there i don't feel they cover everything.
Furthermore, she kind of sounded religious about the stuff, which is never a good sign.
In a way it also reminded me of phrenology where you make some untrue assumptions and then see all of humanity with those assumptions as filters.

[jtimon]

Yeah, it seems praxeology has a very narrow view of what the human brain is capable of.
It stems from old models of how the mind works and altho there are some nice observations about human nature there i don't feel they cover everything.
Furthermore, she kind of sounded religious about the stuff, which is never a good sign.
In a way it also reminded me of phrenology where you make some untrue assumptions and then see all of humanity with those assumptions as filters.

Just quote what untrue assumptions is she relying on. It will be easier to discuss.
And please try to not quote something that she has explained in a previous chapter.

[jtimon]

Hm, that's not the meaning i usually associate with the term "social engineering"...

When i hear that the first thing that comes to my mind is this

She means something closer to all this RBE stuff, not what it's described in your link.
She means this "arriving to conclusions about what to do" dogma.

[Murwa]

Ey, watch out this video. She explains very well what's wrong with social engineering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_i3WOeqqzQ

The funny thing is that our entire society is totally engineered as we speak.

Commercials , subliminal messages , Freudian emotions associations , fear tactics , governments propaganda.

This another example of out of touch with reality logic. Well , money have that influence on stuff.

Beside this is all irrelevant since TZM is about values of society not engineering one. You change values the rest will follow. Just the way it works right now.

[jtimon]

Ey, watch out this video. She explains very well what's wrong with social engineering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_i3WOeqqzQ

The funny thing is that our entire society is totally engineered as we speak.

Commercials , subliminal messages , Freudian emotions associations , fear tactics , governments propaganda.

This another example of out of touch with reality logic. Well , money have that influence on stuff.

They can try to influence me, but I can resist. I'm free to chose to buy their shit or not.

Beside this is all irrelevant since TZM is about values of society not engineering one. You change values the rest will follow. Just the way it works right now.

So there's no need to eliminate money. Good. Just change values.
I think that only changing values is not enough, I think that redesigning the monetary system is also necessary and urgent.
But at least we agree on that, values must change.

[Murwa]

They can try to influence me, but I can resist. I'm free to chose to buy their shit or not.

You response has nothing to do with what i stated .
She claimed as a fact that society cannot be engineered while reality tells otherwise.

So there's no need to eliminate money. Good. Just change values.
I think that only changing values is not enough, I think that redesigning the monetary system is also necessary and urgent.
But at least we agree on that, values must change.

Yes there is need to do so long term because profit mechanism is broken in so many ways.

As for redesigning monetary model rules of money have already changed 4 times in the last 100 years. all it leads from one crisis to another. How long we will be stuck in this vicious circle , especially that we are on the edge what our planet can provide , sustain from us.

[Murwa]

- We all want to grow/advance ourselves or achieve some individual dreams ( this is actually very late need , much more basic needs have a priority )
    * Some people become sportsmens some become astronauts

Yes, and this is the biggest problem i see with the plan for a resource based economy.
Peoples dreams and wishes do not match the needs of a society.

This is already a problem, despite there being control mechanisms in place to direct people towards certain functions.
I mean, what is the societal benifit of researching the mating behaviour of some ecologicly unimportant insect?
And yet there are many biologists doing exactly that.
And not only biologists, but scientists in general do a lot of work that has no direct benefit to society.

Now imagine everyone doing only what they want to do.
How would societies needs get fullfilled then?

What would propably happen is that an elite of worried and responsible people would rise to control the circus.
They will become more and more separated, maybe even becoming a slightly different species due to different evolutionary constraints.
Humanity would effectively be creating an overlord class which we will have no control over.
And we all know what the chances of an overlord class being benign are...

I suggest you watch this video.
Money is only good incentive for manual work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

[jtimon]

They can try to influence me, but I can resist. I'm free to chose to buy their shit or not.

You response has nothing to do with what i stated .
She claimed as a fact that society cannot be engineered while reality tells otherwise.

What I claim is that despite being "engineered" (they don't know for sure the effects of their advertisements) I'm not forced to follow anyones plan. That's what she mean, not marketing stuff.

So there's no need to eliminate money. Good. Just change values.
I think that only changing values is not enough, I think that redesigning the monetary system is also necessary and urgent.
But at least we agree on that, values must change.

Yes there is need to do so long term because profit mechanism is broken in so many ways.

I don't think the profit mechanism is broken. Look at what the profit mechanism is achieving within this community.

As for redesigning monetary model rules of money have already changed 4 times in the last 100 years. all it leads from one crisis to another. How long we will be stuck in this vicious circle , especially that we are on the edge what our planet can provide , sustain from us.

4 times in 100 years?
I can recall only 3 systems in the past 120 years.

1) The classical gold standart.
2) A hybrid between gold standart and clearing between central banks.
3) Global fiat casino based completely in private or semi-private central banks and debt.

What I think is that the steps are being taken in the wrong direction. What's going to be the next? The FMI as a global central bank printing bancors? That's not going to be an improvement neither.

Money is only good incentive for manual work.

Unless you include every work that involves typing in a computer's keyboard as "manual work" you're obviously wrong.

[bahatassafus]

Money is only good incentive for manual work.

Unless you include every work that involves typing in a computer's keyboard as "manual work" you're obviously wrong.

An interesting TED piece on money and motivation:

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html

[Murwa]

Money is only good incentive for manual work.

Unless you include every work that involves typing in a computer's keyboard as "manual work" you're obviously wrong.

An interesting TED piece on money and motivation:

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html

Awesome.

But it is normal most people will still be in denial here , facts doesn't matter to them only believes philosophy assumptions and misguided concept of "FREEDOM"

[jtimon]

Money is only good incentive for manual work.

Unless you include every work that involves typing in a computer's keyboard as "manual work" you're obviously wrong.

An interesting TED piece on money and motivation:

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html

Awesome.

But it is normal most people will still be in denial here , facts doesn't matter to them only believes philosophy assumptions and misguided concept of "FREEDOM"

Interesting video. Let's summarize some conclusions of the talk:

-Incentive often reduces creativity.
-Autonomy often beats management.

I would say the second conclusion is pretty libertarian. I remember you that the RBE is supposed to be scientifically managed.
While in an ideal anarcho-capitalism (I already claimed that I'm for free market but against capitalism), each individual is autonomous and takes his own decisions.

I'll go back to the first one, which I assume is the one you accept as a self-evident proof that we must destroy the whole concept of money. Because it's cursed tool that cannot be fixed. Is not worth to even try to fix it or think about it because is self-evident that the tool was broken already at its birth.
What you seem to blindly deny is that robots would not have been possible without money !!!
There's no civilization without money because you cannot reach that level of division of labor and specialization with barter. And you're not even proposing barter, you're proposing only gift economy. Gift economy is increasing each year thanks to the internet and webs like couchsurfing, but usually is not enough for complex projects that need high levels of collaboration.
Sorry, back to point.

-Incentive often reduces creativity.
So what. I agree with this. How is this incompatible with my claims?

[Murwa]

While in an ideal anarcho-capitalism (I already claimed that I'm for free market but against capitalism), each individual is autonomous and takes his own decisions.

Only in theory , in monetary system person is bounded by a needs to survive he has to work for money ( which stifle creativity) in order to survive , live decent life and have money to rise children.

There is really no freedom for most of population. thats why i used phrase : misguided concept of "FREEDOM"

I'll go back to the first one, which I assume is the one you accept as a self-evident proof that we must destroy the whole concept of money. Because it's cursed tool that cannot be fixed. Is not worth to even try to fix it or think about it because is self-evident that the tool was broken already at its birth.

There is so much stuff broken with them i see no reason to fix them since as more we learn everyday more data speaks that money concept is obsolete.

What you seem to blindly deny is that robots would not have been possible without money !!!

I dont deny that, in fact in above example science tell us money is excellent motivator for simple algorithmic tasks. The reality of XIX , XX century was that most of the jobs were as such but right now it is changing rapidly. Money system has done its job and its on the verge of its possibilities. Time to move over.

Work force is shifting from mundane tasks ( which are easily automated ) to the more creative one ( in which money incentive does not fit ). Thus entire argument when we automate most of the economy there will be no progress is invalid and in fact data show us we can at least expect total opposite effect ( increase in innovation )

-Incentive often reduces creativity.
So what. I agree with this. How is this incompatible with my claims?

Because it is a monetary incentive that reduces creativity. How it can be compatible with money system ?

As pointed Incentives like self mastery , autonomy and purpose works much better.
in change with social values and proper education system , next generations will be driven by just that and in fact those are very liberal qualities !!!

[jtimon]

While in an ideal anarcho-capitalism (I already claimed that I'm for free market but against capitalism), each individual is autonomous and takes his own decisions.

Only in theory , in monetary system person is bounded by a needs to survive he has to work for money ( which stifle creativity) in order to survive , live decent life and have money to rise children.

You need food to rise your children, not money. You don't have to use money within anarchy: you can be self-sufficient.

I'll go back to the first one, which I assume is the one you accept as a self-evident proof that we must destroy the whole concept of money. Because it's cursed tool that cannot be fixed. Is not worth to even try to fix it or think about it because is self-evident that the tool was broken already at its birth.

There is so much stuff broken with them i see no reason to fix them since as more we learn everyday more data speaks that money concept is obsolete.

How can everyday data tell us anything about Ripple (a brand new concept) or freigeld (a concept only used at the local level)?
At most the everyday data tell us that the current monetary system is obsolete.

What you seem to blindly deny is that robots would not have been possible without money !!!

I dont deny that, in fact in above example science tell us money is excellent motivator for simple algorithmic tasks. The reality of XIX , XX century was that most of the jobs were as such but right now it is changing rapidly. Money system has done its job and its on the verge of its possibilities. Time to move over.

Work force is shifting from mundane tasks ( which are easily automated ) to the more creative one ( in which money incentive does not fit ). Thus entire argument when we automate most of the economy there will be no progress is invalid and in fact data show us we can at least expect total opposite effect ( increase in innovation )

Although monetary incentives fail to increase the creativity of this non mechanic workers, we still need a way to measure the goodness of the entrepreneur's innovations.
The only way I see to measure it is the demand for the products of the innovation. 

-Incentive often reduces creativity.
So what. I agree with this. How is this incompatible with my claims?

Because it is a monetary incentive that reduces creativity. How it can be compatible with money system ?

As pointed Incentives like self mastery , autonomy and purpose works much better.
in change with social values and proper education system , next generations will be driven by just that and in fact those are very liberal qualities !!!

I agree, those are very liberal qualities.
But I would not say that the monetary incentive reduces creativity, only that it doesn't work in some cases.
And again, the only alternative to private educations systems are public educations systems. More managed and less autonomous.
If you have agreed that money is responsible for the specialization and civilization. Don't you think that it could be dangerous to remove it? 

[Murwa]

You need food to rise your children, not money. You don't have to use money within anarchy: you can be self-sufficient.

Food and much more ... nevertheless in that case you have to spend your "freedom" on food production. That is just moving backward in time.

How can everyday data tell us anything about Ripple (a brand new concept) or freigeld (a concept only used at the local level)?
At most the everyday data tell us that the current monetary system is obsolete.

Ok lets not get into details here i dont know about all that. But we agree be it gold standard or fiat money should be done with.

Although monetary incentives fail to increase the creativity of this non mechanic workers, we still need a way to measure the goodness of the entrepreneur's innovations.
The only way I see to measure it is the demand for the products of the innovation.  

in RBE people have demands too , you know. What you get is not imposed on you in any way. Maybe only how you got it ( depending on values for example good or energy produced in a sustainable for environment way )
And you have science that can tell about efficiency of all innovation.

If you have agreed that money is responsible for the specialization and civilization. Don't you think that it could be dangerous to remove it?  

TZM is not about removing all money in one day. Obviously that would be dangerous. Perhaps some sort of hybrid or transition period that include currency ( one of those you are linking that is not debt based and so on ) could work. But the end goal should be elimination of money .

[jtimon]

You need food to rise your children, not money. You don't have to use money within anarchy: you can be self-sufficient.

Food and much more ... nevertheless in that case you have to spend your "freedom" on food production. That is just moving backward in time.

What are you talking about? You freely chose to spend your time growing food, probably because you want to eat.

How can everyday data tell us anything about Ripple (a brand new concept) or freigeld (a concept only used at the local level)?
At most the everyday data tell us that the current monetary system is obsolete.

Ok lets not get into details here i dont know about all that. But we agree be it gold standard or fiat money should be done with.

I agree both moneys are flawed. But I think many of the flaws you see today are exclusive in national fiats. Gold is better than that we have today.
I think bitcoin doesn't solve the interest problem, but is better than gold and national fiats.

Although monetary incentives fail to increase the creativity of this non mechanic workers, we still need a way to measure the goodness of the entrepreneur's innovations.
The only way I see to measure it is the demand for the products of the innovation.  

in RBE people have demands too , you know. What you get is not imposed on you in any way. Maybe only how you got it ( depending on values for example good or energy produced in a sustainable for environment way )
And you have science that can tell about efficiency of all innovation.

Discussing if science alone can run a whole society again is a waste of time in my opinion. Did you watch that praxeology video?

If you have agreed that money is responsible for the specialization and civilization. Don't you think that it could be dangerous to remove it?  

TZM is not about removing all money in one day. Obviously that would be dangerous. Perhaps some sort of hybrid or transition period that include currency ( one of those you are linking that is not debt based and so on ) could work. But the end goal should be elimination of money .

Ok, there's alternative moneys that you admit you don't understand but you're sure they have to be eliminated.

[Murwa]

What are you talking about? You freely chose to spend your time growing food, probably because you want to eat.

Why the hell we would want to waste our lifes producing food if its production can be totally automated ?

Discussing if science alone can run a whole society again is a waste of time in my opinion. Did you watch that praxeology video?

Yes and i tried to point it to you that she is claiming stuff that is out of touch with reality.I another words she if full of shit.
Our society is engineered in a indirect way.

Stop ignoring reality in the name of ideology , start paying attention to it.

Beside TZM is not about engineering per say only about changing society's values , which is how it works today.

Ok, there's alternative moneys that you admit you don't understand but you're sure they have to be eliminated.

Tell me which money can get rid of :
* planned obsolescence
* technological hold back in the name of profit or  ( Tesla, Edwin Amstrong, our entire medicine drugs market  )
* disregard for environment
* technological unemployment - infinite growth parading ( i pointed you can have one or the other , you cant get rid of both in money system )
* artificial scarcity that is implemented into supply / demand mechanics
* money = power = power corrupts syndrom.
* People that have no job opportunity or cant work for various reasons cant have acces to free food , water , shelter , education and healthcare.( assuming we have all of that in abundance )
* many more i missed or i am not aware off.

[jtimon]

I give up.
There's no point in explaining the same things over and over again.
Planned obsolescence is about monopolies and cartels, short-term thinking is caused by interest, artificial scarcity also interest, etc.
I feel bad that I haven't teach you anything, but I'm not wasting my time anymore.
Have you learned anything from me?