How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[slackovic]

Of course bitcoin is not a number. A number is a concept about quantity of things represented with math symbols (0-9). Bitcoin is a non-existent thing. People talk about it, write about it, think about it, blockchain has data on its quantity, but nobody is able to show it. That's what I am telling you. Bitcoin is neither tangible nor intangible. Neither physical nor abstract. Bitcoin simply doesn't exist.

As much as I would like to debate with you about this, I don't see a point. You have your opinion just like you had before with other accounts. I was just wondering why are you so eager to convince everyone here on forum dedicated to Bitcoin and crypto in general that Bitcoin doesn't exist? If I remember right, I told you few years ago when you were here under a different account that it's like coming to a cat forum saying cats are the worst pets ever and dogs are great!

[1714700028]

1714700028

[1714700028]

1714700028

[1714700028]

1714700028

[1714700028]

1714700028

[Snowshow]

Of course bitcoin is not a number. A number is a concept about quantity of things represented with math symbols (0-9). Bitcoin is a non-existent thing. People talk about it, write about it, think about it, blockchain has data on its quantity, but nobody is able to show it. That's what I am telling you. Bitcoin is neither tangible nor intangible. Neither physical nor abstract. Bitcoin simply doesn't exist.

As much as I would like to debate with you about this, I don't see a point. You have your opinion just like you had before with other accounts. I was just wondering why are you so eager to convince everyone here on forum dedicated to Bitcoin and crypto in general that Bitcoin doesn't exist? If I remember right, I told you few years ago when you were here under a different account that it's like coming to a cat forum saying cats are the worst pets ever and dogs are great!

I don't know to whom you told something, but here I am not saying anything about the existing things or whatever one thing is the worst, and the other is great. I am simply saying that Bitcoin doesn't exist in reality just like Zeus didn't exist. But of course, Zeus was the god of the sky in ancient Greek mythology just like Bitcoin is the money of the economy in our society today's mythology. And you are free to discuss about that here. I am just saying Bitcoin does not literally exist, and that no one is able to show it. Which is not my opinion but a statement of fact.

[slackovic]

I don't know to whom you told something, but here I am not saying anything about the existing things or whatever one thing is the worst, and the other is great. I am simply saying that Bitcoin doesn't exist in reality just like Zeus didn't exist. But of course, Zeus was the god of the sky in ancient Greek mythology just like Bitcoin is the money of the economy in our society today's mythology. And you are free to discuss about that here. I am just saying Bitcoin does not literally exist, and that no one is able to show it. Which is not my opinion but a statement of fact.

So, all of us in this forum think different than you, but you are convinced that you are right. I am telling you that Bitcoin doesn't have to be a representation of something because it's not any number. It's a digital commodity that a miner gets as a reward for doing the computation task. And because it's a digital commodity, it doesn't have to represent anything - it represents itself just like an ounce of gold doesn't have to represent anything - it's an ounce of gold. The only difference is that Bitcoin is digital commodity and gold is physical commodity.

[Snowshow]

I don't know to whom you told something, but here I am not saying anything about the existing things or whatever one thing is the worst, and the other is great. I am simply saying that Bitcoin doesn't exist in reality just like Zeus didn't exist. But of course, Zeus was the god of the sky in ancient Greek mythology just like Bitcoin is the money of the economy in our society today's mythology. And you are free to discuss about that here. I am just saying Bitcoin does not literally exist, and that no one is able to show it. Which is not my opinion but a statement of fact.

So, all of us in this forum think different than you, but you are convinced that you are right. I am telling you that Bitcoin doesn't have to be a representation of something because it's not any number. It's a digital commodity that a miner gets as a reward for doing the computation task. And because it's a digital commodity, it doesn't have to represent anything - it represents itself just like an ounce of gold doesn't have to represent anything - it's an ounce of gold. The only difference is that Bitcoin is digital commodity and gold is physical commodity.

I don't know what all of you think. I am simply telling you that a digital commodity whose quantities are attached to the addresses doesn't exist. Neither miners nor buyers get it. Numbers attached to their addresses are fake. Gold exists. So the numbers on gold's quantity attached to people's names in some database are real. They are not fake. How do you know that bitcoin is a digital if you are not able to show it? We have digital books, sounds, videos. Applications are digital. And we are able to show them or hear them. You cannot claim that bitcoin is digital if you never saw it. That's like saying: Zeus is digital. In your mythology it might be. But here we are interested in realities not mythologies.

[DooMAD]

Gold exists. So the numbers on gold's quantity attached to people's names in some database are real. They are not fake.

Except they absolutely can be fake.  You'd have to be completely braindead to think gold scams don't exist.  And the reason they exist is because of trust.  If someone mistakenly places trust in the wrong third party, they can easily be ripped off.  They'll find themselves unable to access the gold they believe they have purchased.

Bitcoin is designed to remove the need for trust (assuming you use it correctly).  It's all about being able to verify things for yourself without relying on anyone else.  Every time you ask us to show you where the bitcoins are, I just read it is as you demonstrating your need to be utterly reliant on others.  Some people just can't handle the responsibility of self-determination.  Their loss, I guess.

What's important is that I know where my bitcoins are, or, in essence, the private keys allowing me to spend my bitcoins (but naturally I have no interest in sharing that with either you or anyone else).  And the location of anyone else's bitcoins, or again, the keys to spend them, is none of my business.  Or yours.  But as for your feigning ignorance as to how it all works, I'm guessing anyone who has had as many accounts as you've had over the years must have grasped the concept by now and you're just being deliberately obnoxious in acting like you don't know.  Although, I suppose I can't rule out the possibility that you're even dumber than I'm giving you credit for.  In which case, I'd suggest posting less and reading more until you understand it better.

[Snowshow]

Gold exists. So the numbers on gold's quantity attached to people's names in some database are real. They are not fake.

Except they absolutely can be fake.  You'd have to be completely braindead to think gold scams don't exist.  And the reason they exist is because of trust.  If someone mistakenly places trust in the wrong third party, they can easily be ripped off.  They'll find themselves unable to access the gold they believe they have purchased.

Bitcoin is designed to remove the need for trust (assuming you use it correctly).  It's all about being able to verify things for yourself without relying on anyone else.  Every time you ask us to show you where the bitcoins are, I just read it is as you demonstrating your need to be utterly reliant on others.  Some people just can't handle the responsibility of self-determination.  Their loss, I guess.

What's important is that I know where my bitcoins are, or, in essence, the private keys allowing me to spend my bitcoins (but naturally I have no interest in sharing that with either you or anyone else).  And the location of anyone else's bitcoins, or again, the keys to spend them, is none of my business.  Or yours.  But as for your feigning ignorance as to how it all works, I'm guessing anyone who has had as many accounts as you've had over the years must have grasped the concept by now and you're just being deliberately obnoxious in acting like you don't know.  Although, I suppose I can't rule out the possibility that you're even dumber than I'm giving you credit for.  In which case, I'd suggest posting less and reading more until you understand it better.

Gold scams essentially mean attaching fake numbers to people's names where numbers quantity the gold that doesn't actually exists in people's ownership. That's exactly the case with bitcoin scam. The system attaches fake numbers to people's names where numbers quantity bitcoin that doesn't actually exists in people's ownership. Thanks for the analogy.

Btw, it is not bitcoin what is designed, but system that attaches fake numbers to people's addresses. Bitcoin doesn't exist.

[DooMAD]

Bitcoin doesn't exist.

Except it demonstrably does.  It can be redeemed for real-world goods and services.  There's a network of physical devices around the world to relay transactions.  People have founded companies which exist solely to cater to this new economy.  Real, tangible bricks-and-mortar establishments.  Other forms of physical infrastructure exist to support it, like a dedicated satellite network.  It doesn't get more real than this. 

But if you are continuing to be willfully ignorant to the obvious, I refer you back to my previous points:

Those who are blind to opportunities are unable to seize upon them.

We gain the benefits of:

Censorship resistance,
Financial autonomy,
Monetary sovereignty,
Freedom.
(...)
And as the icing on the cake, a hedge against inflation and a distinct likelihood of increased purchasing power later down the road.

And you don't gain those benefits.  Sucks to be you.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Debt in the banking system is the thing that exists.

Show me debt, and I'll send you a pic with my bitcoins.

But, even if you don't believe us, even though we should have convinced you by now, what about the rest of the world? There are unbelievably smarter people than me and you who are astonished by the way it works and fight tooth and nail to accomplish usage in a global scale. Doesn't it seem extravagant to you to say that every single one of the millions of Bitcoin users is a psycho?

[Snowshow]

Bitcoin doesn't exist.

Except it demonstrably does. It can be redeemed for real-world goods and services.  There's a network of physical devices around the world to relay transactions.  People have founded companies which exist solely to cater to this new economy. Real, tangible bricks-and-mortar establishments.  Other forms of physical infrastructure exist to support it, like a dedicated satellite network.  It doesn't get more real than this.  

But if you are continuing to be willfully ignorant to the obvious, I refer you back to my previous points:

Those who are blind to opportunities are unable to seize upon them.

We gain the benefits of:

Censorship resistance,
Financial autonomy,
Monetary sovereignty,
Freedom.
(...)
And as the icing on the cake, a hedge against inflation and a distinct likelihood of increased purchasing power later down the road.

And you don't gain those benefits.  Sucks to be you.

I never get tired of debunking mythology.

Attaching a number to a name is not redeeming. Redeeming means settling debt owed to financial instrument holder. That what you call "redeeming" is a new victim entering into a fraud where fake numbers will be attached to their name. (address). As you can see, there's no bitcoin in this process.

The network of physical devices around the world just keep fake numbers stored. Again, there's no bitcoin in this process.

So, I am not ignorant of people and infrastructure around attaching and storing fake numbers. I am just telling you that bitcoin doesn't exist.

Censorship resistance, financial autonomy, monetary sovereignty, freedom... are concepts. Again, there's no bitcoin in these concepts.

So, how have you demonstrated that bitcoin exists?

[Snowshow]

Debt in the banking system is the thing that exists.

Show me debt, and I'll send you a pic with my bitcoins.

But, even if you don't believe us, even though we should have convinced you by now, what about the rest of the world? There are unbelievably smarter people than me and you who are astonished by the way it works and fight tooth and nail to accomplish usage in a global scale. Doesn't it seem extravagant to you to say that every single one of the millions of Bitcoin users is a psycho?

The whole banking system exists to manage loans. Loans are debt.  Every loan granted is evidence of debt. Every loan repayment is evidence of debt settlement. Numbers on bank accounts or banknotes just quantity the shares in that debt. What you can show me is a pic of fake number attached to your address. Nothing else.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Buddy, show me debt if you say it exists.

[Snowshow]

Buddy, show me debt if you say it exists.

Debt is the liability evidenced with loan contracts and accounting books in the banking system. Go talk to a person that was granted a loan to show you the contact and you will see the evidence of debt. Check the accounting books of the banks and you will see the evidence of debt. Go to a bank to see how loans are paid and how the debt is settled in the accounting books. It's a process that happens every day. Debt management is practically all that the banks are doing.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Debt is the liability evidenced with loan contracts and accounting books in the banking system.

Exactly, it's a liability. The asset which is promised to be paid is nothing but fiat currency. Fiat currency is nothing more than "numbers" whose power is forcefully indicated by the government. When I own $100, I only own the papers that say so.

You fail, miserably, to understand that the same happens with Bitcoin, but there's no authority that enforces its usage.

[Snowshow]

Debt is the liability evidenced with loan contracts and accounting books in the banking system.

Exactly, it's a liability. The asset which is promised to be paid is nothing but fiat currency. Fiat currency is nothing more than "numbers" whose power is forcefully indicated by the government. When I own $100, I only own the papers that say so.

You fail, miserably, to understand that the same happens with Bitcoin, but there's no authority that enforces its usage.

The level of your ignorance is stunning. I just proved to you the existence of debt. I proved that the debt is an existing thing and that the numbers that quantity that thing are therefore genuine.

And your response is: "bitcoin the same". Hahaha. In a rational discussion, what you are supposed to do, is to show a thing called bitcoin. Only in that way you can prove that the numbers attached to the addresses are genuine. You are not supposed to make nonsensical claims of equivalence between an existing thing and a thing whose existence you must demonstrate.

So, can you demonstrate the existence of bitcoin? Can you show where's that revolutionary digital commodity? No, you can't. You already demonstrated that you can't. All you can do is talk nonsense and play semantics.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I proved that the debt is an existing thing and that the numbers that quantity that thing are therefore genuine.

No you didn't, you only said that it's a liability, which is true. Debt, from credit cards to government bonds, is a liability, and a liability can be described as:

the responsibility of a person, business, or organization to pay or give up something of value

You pay up debt (which is the liability) with either assets or liabilities (which creates even more debt). At some point, assets will have to be transacted as these are the promised gains. For example, base money (cash).

Cash is NOT a liability. It's considered asset. Therefore, cash, ALONE, does NOT represent debt. Once someone starts loaning this cash, debt will be created. Agreed so far?

[n0nce]

But you are looking at Bitcoin in the wrong way. Bitcoin is not a representation of something physical. It is Bitcoin. Just like an ounce of gold is an ounce of gold, one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin. There is nothing behind an ounce of gold because it's just an once of gold. It's the same with Bitcoin.

And Bitcoin is not just a number in a database.

This is the absolutely beautiful and stunning, for many people inconceivable (as we see here) thing about Bitcoin. The first time ever, we have a way to digitally store and move real value and not just an 'IOU', a reference pointing to some real value.

That's why the often asked question 'what backs Bitcoin' is so wrong, too. It's very much engrained in most people's way of thought since that's the only thing they've ever known - paper money, totally understandable. But just like you wouldn't ask 'what backs gold' or 'what backs your house', asking about Bitcoin's backing is pointless.

Bitcoin is value, it doesn't represent value. Bitcoins very much do exist, just not the way you're used to. As simple as that.

[Snowshow]

I proved that the debt is an existing thing and that the numbers that quantity that thing are therefore genuine.

No you didn't, you only said that it's a liability, which is true. Debt, from credit cards to government bonds, is a liability, and a liability can be described as:

the responsibility of a person, business, or organization to pay or give up something of value

You pay up debt (which is the liability) with either assets or liabilities (which creates even more debt). At some point, assets will have to be transacted as these are the promised gains. For example, base money (cash).

Cash is NOT a liability. It's considered asset. Therefore, cash, ALONE, does NOT represent debt. Once someone starts loaning this cash, debt will be created. Agreed so far?

You talk nonsense and stupidity.  Cash is paper with numbers and these are put in circulation with loans. Loan is debt. Cash prove the existence of debt. No debt no cash. First the debt is created and only then numbers are used to quantity it. The same is with deposit accounts. Positive numbers on deposit accounts mean debt was created. Numbers are the consequence of debt. No debt no numbers.

The same is with everything else. A company produces cars and then they put numbers in accounting books to express quantity of cars. No cars no numbers.

Debt and cars are things that exist. Numbers are means to inform about the quantity of those EXISTING things.

Numbers are also attached to bitcoin addresses. But there's no thing which is quantified with them. This is called fake numbers. It's like invoice that lists the products or services that were never sold to a costumer. Bitcoin wallet has quantities of a product that was never sold to a wallet holder. That's a fraud. And you are one of the online promotors of that fraud. You are constantly spreading misinformation that people are buying bitcoin but such digital product was never sold to people.

[Snowshow]

But you are looking at Bitcoin in the wrong way. Bitcoin is not a representation of something physical. It is Bitcoin. Just like an ounce of gold is an ounce of gold, one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin. There is nothing behind an ounce of gold because it's just an once of gold. It's the same with Bitcoin.

And Bitcoin is not just a number in a database.

This is the absolutely beautiful and stunning, for many people inconceivable (as we see here) thing about Bitcoin. The first time ever, we have a way to digitally store and move real value and not just an 'IOU', a reference pointing to some real value.

That's why the often asked question 'what backs Bitcoin' is so wrong, too. It's very much engrained in most people's way of thought since that's the only thing they've ever known - paper money, totally understandable. But just like you wouldn't ask 'what backs gold' or 'what backs your house', asking about Bitcoin's backing is pointless.

Bitcoin is value, it doesn't represent value. Bitcoins very much do exist, just not the way you're used to. As simple as that.

You are not storing or moving value, but numbers. A number is a concept on quantity of things. A thing is value, not a number. If there's a number "10", next to your name or address, this is suggesting that there are 10 pieces of a thing in your possession. But if the thing is not in your possession, the number is fake. And that's exactly the case with bitcoin. There's no such thing as bitcoin in the possession of an address holder which has a specific number attached to their address. So, blockchain is just a giant collection of fake numbers. And bitcoin cannot be value by definition, given it doesn't exist.

[slackovic]

You are not storing or moving value, but numbers. A number is a concept on quantity of things. A thing is value, not a number. If there's a number "10", next to your name or address, this is suggesting that there are 10 pieces of a thing in your possession. But if the thing is not in your possession, the number is fake. And that's exactly the case with bitcoin. There's no such thing as bitcoin in the possession of an address holder which has a specific number attached to their address. So, blockchain is just a giant collection of fake numbers. And bitcoin cannot be value by definition, given it doesn't exist.

I will put it in your words:

You talk nonsense and stupidity.

When transferring Bitcoin, people are not transferring numbers but bitcoins. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Bitcoin doesn't represent anything just like gold doesn't represent anything - they both have value for what they are - Bitcoin and gold. That is the thing you must learn to understand - Bitcoin doesn't represent anything and it's value doesn't come from it representing some other asset. It's value comes from it being Bitcoin! Just like value of gold bar comes from it being a gold bar. Just like value of water comes from it being water.

[nullama]

One of the key inventions of Satoshi Nakamoto was digital scarcity. This was obtained by solving the double spending problem. You can read about it here: https://komodoplatform.com/en/academy/double-spending-problem/

That's what makes sending Bitcoin different to sending an SMS message.