How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[Snowshow]

So, why are you here? Why don't you live your life with this debt-based money you love using of, and leave those "clumsy" Bitcoiners to live their own lives with their "fraudulent money" as you're saying?

You appear once in a while, and want to convince us all that you're right. You repeat the same bullshit, "Bitcoin doesn't exist", "Satoshi lies you" etc., to achieve what exactly? This behavior shows me you're either ill-intentioned or simply problematic. Perhaps both.

I've repeatedly told you that Bitcoin doesn't have a tangible representation and only exists units-wise. People can imagine it exists, that it's some sort digital metal, that it's a public ledger, it's a matter of creativity beyond a certain level.

You're repeatedly told me things that have no basis in reality. I debunked literally every statement that you made. And you just keep repeating them. Now you're questioning my motivation. What's next? You want to know how old I am? Or what I like to eat?

My point is what I have wrote: if you say that 5 digital(intangible) books or movies exist, you are not supposed to show number "5". But books and movies.

In the same way, if you say that a specific number of digital (intangible) bitcois exists, you're not supposed to show number, but digital products. However, all you can show is a number. Essentially, you are proving that bitcoin doesn't exist.

Do you even read my replies?

Here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389815.msg59606677#msg59606677
I explained that there are two numbers in bitcoin. One is the balance, sure that's just a number. But we also have private and public keys (which are numbers) that prove the ownership.

Nobody claims that showing the first number (balance) proves ownership. It's the 'second number', the cryptographic keys.

Since you claim these are easy to generate, I challenge you to just 'come up with' or 'generate' a number (key) that grants you 1BTC.

You also didn't reply to my challenge of downloading the blockchain and thus owning all the coins (which you laughingly claimed possible before). Why?

Everyone that has installed the wallet app has keys an numbers attached. Everyone that has downloaded blockchain can see numbers and addresses. Anyone that would pay $1.2 trillion today to have the sum of all the numbers in the Satoshi's system attached to their address, would have a number attached, the same as any person that holds an address in the system. It's just that the number would be different. But nobody would own something. A guy with 18,000,000 attached to his address, and a guy with 0.00000001 attached, can both show only keys and math symbols. Nothing else. There's no difference between them. So, what is your point? On what did the first guy spend 1.2 trillion dollars?

[1714703299]

1714703299

[1714703299]

1714703299

[FatFork]

And I gave you an example that proves that your arguments are flawed.
I ask you again, does DNS exist? Can you show it to me?

You couldn't have proved that my arguments are flawed because I made no arguments. I was simply stating facts. Saying that the Sun is bigger than the Moon is not an argument.

This is not a fact, but your fiction. Stating that the Sun does not exist because you are visually impaired is not a statement of fact.

Saying that bitcoin doesn't exist in Satoshi's system is not an argument. It's a statement of fact. I am simply observing the system. When people say that they bought bitcoin, all I can see is the change of a number next to their address. So, I observe a couple of math symbols, and not some revolutionary digital product that is capable of making people free. Then, I check the network. And I see nodes that are keeping the numbers and addresses stored in a database. Again, no revolutionary digital product there. Than I check the wallet app. I see only keys that everyone got for free. And numbers attached to address. And letters B, T, and C. But again, I see no revolutionary digital product there. So, I have empirically confirmed that no revolutionary digital product exists in the Satoshi's system. Not a single bitcoin holder has ever demonstrated to own such a product when joining the system. What we all observe is a simple system that attaches numbers to addresses and keeps that stored in a distributed database. People then simply read that numbers via wallet applications. That's literally everything. A revolutionary digital product, a new form of money, an advanced electronic cash, ... exist only in human imagination.  

I ask you again, does DNS exist? Can you show it to me?
I know it's mind boggling, but it amazes me that after all this time you can't figure this stuff out yet ... maybe you'll catch on someday.

Now you say over 100 million people around the world are stupid? Wow, talk about arrogance!

I would never say that Elon Musk is stupid. Nor anyone here. You are just ignorant or driven by greed, so you shut down your brains when discussing bitcoin issues.

Since you don't know me, you can't know that. It's just your opinion. Once again, putting yourself ahead of 100 million other people is a sick level of arrogance. I suggest you talk to someone about it.

In fact, you can't really show a digital book. Unfortunately, humans do not have the ability to see (or perceive) digital electrical impulses stored and transmitted through electronic circuits. All you can do is show a visual (or audial) representation of digital data, whether it be a digital book, picture, audio recording, or any other data type, including bitcoin.

I can prove that a digital book exists by reading text or watching pictures after opening a file. In the same way you can prove that a number is attached to your address when opening your wallet. But you cannot prove that there's a digital product called bitcoin.

It seems to me that you have a very narrow and inaccurate idea of what a digital product is. Digital products are available in different forms. For example, Google Search is a digital product. You can't read it or watch it, but you can utilize it. In a similar manner, I can utilize bitcoin, so it is a digital product that exists.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Everyone that has installed the wallet app has keys an numbers attached.

That's what n0nce told you.

Everyone that has downloaded blockchain can see numbers and addresses.

That's also true.

Anyone that would pay $1.2 trillion today to have the sum of all the numbers in the Satoshi's system attached to their address, would have a number attached, the same as any person that holds an address in the system.

That's false. If you bought the equivalent of $1.2 trillion in Bitcoin, you'd have definitely more Bitcoin than I do, because your balance would be greater than mine.

It's just that the number would be different.

That's a big difference. If you own 1 car and another owns 10,000 cars, you both own cars, and therefore, both own a number of cars, but not the same amount.

A guy with 18,000,000 attached to his address, and a guy with 0.00000001 attached, can both show only keys and math symbols.

But only one of them can prove that they own 18,000,000 units of the system. The other has much much less.

[TheGreatPython]

Censorship resistance,
Financial autonomy,
Monetary sovereignty,
Freedom.

People used to say money can't buy those things.  Bitcoin proves them wrong.

And as the icing on the cake, a hedge against inflation and a distinct likelihood of increased purchasing power later down the road.

I don’t know if I really agree with that part of freedom. Well yes I do agree with it to an extent, but not like I fully agree with that. OK Bitcoin gives you freedom, but it is only in the financial aspect of things. The kind of freedom that Bitcoin gives you is the freedom that you are able to make transactions to anyone and anywhere around the world without any form of restrictions that are set by the government or any kind of regulation.

You are just completely free from government’s set rules and you can make transaction however you want it. That’s the kind of freedom it gives you. So it is not like freedom in everything.

[Snowshow]

And I gave you an example that proves that your arguments are flawed.
I ask you again, does DNS exist? Can you show it to me?

You couldn't have proved that my arguments are flawed because I made no arguments. I was simply stating facts. Saying that the Sun is bigger than the Moon is not an argument.

This is not a fact, but your fiction. Stating that the Sun does not exist because you are visually impaired is not a statement of fact.

Saying that bitcoin doesn't exist in Satoshi's system is not an argument. It's a statement of fact. I am simply observing the system. When people say that they bought bitcoin, all I can see is the change of a number next to their address. So, I observe a couple of math symbols, and not some revolutionary digital product that is capable of making people free. Then, I check the network. And I see nodes that are keeping the numbers and addresses stored in a database. Again, no revolutionary digital product there. Than I check the wallet app. I see only keys that everyone got for free. And numbers attached to address. And letters B, T, and C. But again, I see no revolutionary digital product there. So, I have empirically confirmed that no revolutionary digital product exists in the Satoshi's system. Not a single bitcoin holder has ever demonstrated to own such a product when joining the system. What we all observe is a simple system that attaches numbers to addresses and keeps that stored in a distributed database. People then simply read that numbers via wallet applications. That's literally everything. A revolutionary digital product, a new form of money, an advanced electronic cash, ... exist only in human imagination.  

I ask you again, does DNS exist? Can you show it to me?
I know it's mind boggling, but it amazes me that after all this time you can't figure this stuff out yet ... maybe you'll catch on someday.

Now you say over 100 million people around the world are stupid? Wow, talk about arrogance!

I would never say that Elon Musk is stupid. Nor anyone here. You are just ignorant or driven by greed, so you shut down your brains when discussing bitcoin issues.

Since you don't know me, you can't know that. It's just your opinion. Once again, putting yourself ahead of 100 million other people is a sick level of arrogance. I suggest you talk to someone about it.

In fact, you can't really show a digital book. Unfortunately, humans do not have the ability to see (or perceive) digital electrical impulses stored and transmitted through electronic circuits. All you can do is show a visual (or audial) representation of digital data, whether it be a digital book, picture, audio recording, or any other data type, including bitcoin.

I can prove that a digital book exists by reading text or watching pictures after opening a file. In the same way you can prove that a number is attached to your address when opening your wallet. But you cannot prove that there's a digital product called bitcoin.

It seems to me that you have a very narrow and inaccurate idea of what a digital product is. Digital products are available in different forms. For example, Google Search is a digital product. You can't read it or watch it, but you can utilize it. In a similar manner, I can utilize bitcoin, so it is a digital product that exists.

I demonstrated by empirical evidence that it is a fact. You've just rhetorically denied the evidence. Nothing else.

Does DNS exist? I don't even know what DNS is. If I would claim it exists I would provide evidence for my claim. You claim that bitcoin exists but you have zero evidence to back it up.

You cannot utilize bitcoin. All you can do is swap numbers with someone. And then use your imagination to think that you own xx bitcoins. Or you can think that Bitcoin is a good that will solve all your problems. You can think whatever you want because human capacity for imaginary creation is enormous.

Everyone that has installed the wallet app has keys an numbers attached.

That's what n0nce told you.

Everyone that has downloaded blockchain can see numbers and addresses.

That's also true.

Anyone that would pay $1.2 trillion today to have the sum of all the numbers in the Satoshi's system attached to their address, would have a number attached, the same as any person that holds an address in the system.

That's false. If you bought the equivalent of $1.2 trillion in Bitcoin, you'd have definitely more Bitcoin than I do, because your balance would be greater than mine.

It's just that the number would be different.

That's a big difference. If you own 1 car and another owns 10,000 cars, you both own cars, and therefore, both own a number of cars, but not the same amount.

A guy with 18,000,000 attached to his address, and a guy with 0.00000001 attached, can both show only keys and math symbols.

But only one of them can prove that they own 18,000,000 units of the system. The other has much much less.

You cannot buy the equivalent of $1.2 trillion in bitcoin, because bitcoin doesn't exist. All you can do is to have the sum of the numbers in the system attached to your address.

If I own 1 car and a guy owns 10,000 cars, this guy can show 10,000 more four-wheeled road vehicles powered by an engine, than I can.

If you have  0.0000001 attached to your address, and a guy has 18,000,000 attached you both can show equal number of keys and math symbols.

Units of a system is another name for math symbols. You're just paying semantics.

[BlackHatCoiner]

All you can do is attach the sum of numbers in the system to your address.

I can only attach it to my machine, but not to others'. I can change it to 18,000,000 BTC to my machine, but this won't make it true, because I won't have the necessary digital signature to prove it so. I need other people to sign that I'm the new owner of their coins. I can't just make those up.

As for semantics, that you keep saying, you're the only one who's playing with semantics all the time... "numbers", "math symbols", "Satoshi's system"... Get real, man.

If you have  0.0000001 attached to your address, and a guy has 18,000,000 attached you both can show equal number of keys and math symbols.

Ugh.. Same shit... All over again... You don't (want to) get it...

[n0nce]

A guy with 18,000,000 attached to his address, and a guy with 0.00000001 attached, can both show only keys and math symbols.

That's the point: these 'only keys and math symbols' do hold value. You seem very confused, because you keep going back and forth between 'you guys just show the number e.g. 5BTC but not what it points to' and 'keys are just math symbols'. Those are two different things. Both are wrong, but both are different. Are you even aware of this? It would be beneficial to know what we're discussing about, because (1) is completely wrong and easy to understand, while (2) gets a little bit more interesting.

Nothing else. There's no difference between them. So, what is your point? On what did the first guy spend 1.2 trillion dollars?

Just because two cryptographic keys are both 'math symbols' doesn't mean both need to have the same value. It's like saying 'your shed and this skyscraper are both building, lol why would this stupid guy buy the skyscraper for $100 million when he can buy a shed that is also a 'math symbol'building and only costs a couple grand?'

A guy with 18,000,000 attached to his address, and a guy with 0.00000001 attached, can both show only keys and math symbols.

But only one of them can prove that they own 18,000,000 units of the system. The other has much much less.

You explained very well; maybe it helps him understand better if we tell him that Bitcoin is UTXO based, so there are no 'accounts' per se, but ownership of UTXOs. This ownership is proven by possession of the only private key ('just number / math symbol') that allows you to transfer this UTXO to another owner. This is your ownership right. The key.

Again, I challenge @Snowshow to come up with a 'just a number' that allows him to send me 1BTC through the blockchain and I will pay him in cash for that coin. It doesn't get easier than that, according to him.
Heck, I'll send him the blockchain on a HDD via mail to make it easier for him.

Does DNS exist? I don't even know what DNS is. If I would claim it exists I would provide evidence for my claim. You claim that bitcoin exists but you have zero evidence to back it up.

Oh wow, sorry but you must be pretty clueless about technology. Maybe read a book or something. I'm not saying everyone needs to know what DNS is, but if you want to discuss the maths and protocol of Bitcoin at this level, it seems to me you lack all of the basics, and this is kind of the icing on the cake.

You cannot utilize bitcoin. All you can do is swap numbers with someone. And then use your imagination to think that you own xx bitcoins. Or you can think that Bitcoin is a good that will solve all your problems. You can think whatever you want because human capacity for imaginary creation is enormous.

Since you like proofs, here's a proof okay? I and many others here bought lots of goods through Bitcoin. But you claim we never 'utilized' Bitcoin? How's that possible? If only our imagination would tell us that we own that amount of Bitcoin, nobody would take them for payment, right? Maybe you can prove me wrong, since you like proofs, and 'think you own xx bitcoins', then convince someone of it and have them give you a physical good for it? Good luck with that! No keys, no coins dude.

If I own 1 car and a guy owns 10,000 cars, this guy can show 10,000 more four-wheeled road vehicles powered by an engine, than I can.

If you have  0.0000001 attached to your address, and a guy has 18,000,000 attached you both can show equal number of keys and math symbols.

No, they cannot. One can provide a cryptographic signature that proves the ownership of 18 million coins and the other can't. Simple as that.
I know with pretty high confidence that you have zero idea about cryptography and signatures, so read a book or two on that as well, when you're done with the basic protocols of the internet. Then we can talk technology and cryptocurrencies. So long!

PS: Also read the forum rules. You always quote everything, that's painful.

[FatFork]

Does DNS exist? I don't even know what DNS is. If I would claim it exists I would provide evidence for my claim. You claim that bitcoin exists but you have zero evidence to back it up.

Do you know what Bitcoin is?

As I see it, your opinion about Bitcoin (yes, an opinion, not facts) seems to have the same value as my opinion about Darwin's theory of evolution, which I know practically nothing about. Imagine I were to claim that evolution of living organisms doesn't exist. Would you be able to prove me wrong given that I am completely ignorant on the subject?

You cannot utilize bitcoin. All you can do is swap numbers with someone.

However, 100 million people currently using the Bitcoin network beg to differ. And just another fact check, even your example shows that Bitcoin has at least some utility.  

[rhomelmabini]

Thanks for the show Snowshow. That's pretty dope of a troll you revealed here and I'm quiet not convinced at all too. I guess this is a late boomer who happen to know how messaging works and begin to hop in out of curiosity to Bitcoin. You need another course of "messaging 102" before you jump to another higher course like the blockchain system.

This was all a trolling thing though. Don't be wrong if you're on a streak territory, this is a Bitcoin forum after all and you're here to spread irrelevant things against it.

[Snowshow]

All you can do is attach the sum of numbers in the system to your address.

I can only attach it to my machine, but not to others'. I can change it to 18,000,000 BTC to my machine, but this won't make it true, because I won't have the necessary digital signature to prove it so. I need other people to sign that I'm the new owner of their coins. I can't just make those up.

As for semantics, that you keep saying, you're the only one who's playing with semantics all the time... "numbers", "math symbols", "Satoshi's system"... Get real, man.

If you have  0.0000001 attached to your address, and a guy has 18,000,000 attached you both can show equal number of keys and math symbols.

Ugh.. Same shit... All over again... You don't (want to) get it...

Again, you don't have coins. You have fake number attached to your address that provides false information about the existance of a thing named "coin", while in reality you own nothing. Anyone can write down a number a name of a non-existent thing and then clam to owe it. I can write down to own 10 Ferraris. Satoshi, via his software, can write down that a miner's address owns 10 bitcoins. Someone else can counterfeit $10,000 dollars and claim to own bank debt. All that would be false information. If I would keep insisting I own 10 Ferries, while only pointing to what I wrote down, that would be called a delusion. If I would do that publicly, that would be spreading misinformation.

A guy with 18,000,000 attached to his address, and a guy with 0.00000001 attached, can both show only keys and math symbols.

That's the point: these 'only keys and math symbols' do hold value. You seem very confused, because you keep going back and forth between 'you guys just show the number e.g. 5BTC but not what it points to' and 'keys are just math symbols'. Those are two different things. Both are wrong, but both are different. Are you even aware of this? It would be beneficial to know what we're discussing about, because (1) is completely wrong and easy to understand, while (2) gets a little bit more interesting.

Nothing else. There's no difference between them. So, what is your point? On what did the first guy spend 1.2 trillion dollars?

Just because two cryptographic keys are both 'math symbols' doesn't mean both need to have the same value. It's like saying 'your shed and this skyscraper are both building, lol why would this stupid guy buy the skyscraper for $100 million when he can buy a shed that is also a 'math symbol'building and only costs a couple grand?'

A guy with 18,000,000 attached to his address, and a guy with 0.00000001 attached, can both show only keys and math symbols.

But only one of them can prove that they own 18,000,000 units of the system. The other has much much less.

You explained very well; maybe it helps him understand better if we tell him that Bitcoin is UTXO based, so there are no 'accounts' per se, but ownership of UTXOs. This ownership is proven by possession of the only private key ('just number / math symbol') that allows you to transfer this UTXO to another owner. This is your ownership right. The key.

Again, I challenge @Snowshow to come up with a 'just a number' that allows him to send me 1BTC through the blockchain and I will pay him in cash for that coin. It doesn't get easier than that, according to him.
Heck, I'll send him the blockchain on a HDD via mail to make it easier for him.

Does DNS exist? I don't even know what DNS is. If I would claim it exists I would provide evidence for my claim. You claim that bitcoin exists but you have zero evidence to back it up.

Oh wow, sorry but you must be pretty clueless about technology. Maybe read a book or something. I'm not saying everyone needs to know what DNS is, but if you want to discuss the maths and protocol of Bitcoin at this level, it seems to me you lack all of the basics, and this is kind of the icing on the cake.

You cannot utilize bitcoin. All you can do is swap numbers with someone. And then use your imagination to think that you own xx bitcoins. Or you can think that Bitcoin is a good that will solve all your problems. You can think whatever you want because human capacity for imaginary creation is enormous.

Since you like proofs, here's a proof okay? I and many others here bought lots of goods through Bitcoin. But you claim we never 'utilized' Bitcoin? How's that possible? If only our imagination would tell us that we own that amount of Bitcoin, nobody would take them for payment, right? Maybe you can prove me wrong, since you like proofs, and 'think you own xx bitcoins', then convince someone of it and have them give you a physical good for it? Good luck with that! No keys, no coins dude.

If I own 1 car and a guy owns 10,000 cars, this guy can show 10,000 more four-wheeled road vehicles powered by an engine, than I can.

If you have  0.0000001 attached to your address, and a guy has 18,000,000 attached you both can show equal number of keys and math symbols.

No, they cannot. One can provide a cryptographic signature that proves the ownership of 18 million coins and the other can't. Simple as that.
I know with pretty high confidence that you have zero idea about cryptography and signatures, so read a book or two on that as well, when you're done with the basic protocols of the internet. Then we can talk technology and cryptocurrencies. So long!

PS: Also read the forum rules. You always quote everything, that's painful.

I am not confused. I am simply stating the fact that none of you are able to show a thing whose name is bitcoin, and whose quantities are written next to your addresses. That's all. That's why you're focused on ad hominem attacks. Talking about my motivation, education and knowledge. I am having real fun here watching what people are capable to do or say just to justify false narratives and misinformation. I am viewing this as some sort of psychological experiment.

As for your false claims. You bought nothing with bitcoin. You transferred fake numbers to people's addresses and these people transferred the ownership of the existing things to you. Why the people did that? Probably because they are the victims of misinformation that bitcoin is an existing thing.

Does DNS exist? I don't even know what DNS is. If I would claim it exists I would provide evidence for my claim. You claim that bitcoin exists but you have zero evidence to back it up.

Do you know what Bitcoin is?

As I see it, your opinion about Bitcoin (yes, an opinion, not facts) seems to have the same value as my opinion about Darwin's theory of evolution, which I know practically nothing about. Imagine I were to claim that evolution of living organisms doesn't exist. Would you be able to prove me wrong given that I am completely ignorant on the subject?

You cannot utilize bitcoin. All you can do is swap numbers with someone.

However, 100 million people currently using the Bitcoin network beg to differ. And just another fact check, even your example shows that Bitcoin has at least some utility.  

I don't have opinion on bitcoin, I am exposing misinformation that bitcoin exist. I am proving that the numbers written down by the Satoshi's system are not the quantities of an existing digital thing but fake numbers.

[slackovic]

I read the whole discussion since yesterday and all I see that you repeat the same thing all the time - Bitcoin doesn't exist because no one can show it to you. And when someone asks you about other things that do exist (communication protocols or evolution), you ignore the question or just say that you now nothing about that. Just let it go man... All of us here are delusional idiots who believe Bitcoin is something valuable and you are the only one smart enough to see that it's worthless. Is your life mission to save us all from our delusion?

[Snowshow]

I read the whole discussion since yesterday and all I see that you repeat the same thing all the time - Bitcoin doesn't exist because no one can show it to you. And when someone asks you about other things that do exist (communication protocols or evolution), you ignore the question or just say that you now nothing about that. Just let it go man... All of us here are delusional idiots who believe Bitcoin is something valuable and you are the only one smart enough to see that it's worthless. Is your life mission to save us all from our delusion?

Sure, if people repeatedly lie that coin called bitcoin exists then I must repeatedly address their lies. I don't care about their nonsensical analogies with DNS or evolution. The people here are lying and spreading misinformation. That's the point. Hiding behind stupid analogies won't make that lies go away.

A coin, a token, or money in the form of a record is basically a record of liability. Liability of the issuer of the record to redeem it. So, if that guy Satoshi claims that the numbers that his system is writing down are coins than he is actually claiming that someone has the liability to redeem them. Like banks redeem their records via loan repayments, like casinos redeem their records (tokens), like retailers redeem their gift cards, or corporations their bonds. But no entity exists that has the liability to redeem the record next to addresses in Satoshi's system. That's why the records that his system writes down are not coins. They're not bitcoins. They are fake numbers. Any idiot can print numbers, and then claim they are coins, without having any liability to redeem them. That's called a fraud and not a payment system.

[nullama]

~snip~

Any idiot can print numbers, and then claim they are coins, without having any liability to redeem them. That's called a fraud and not a payment system.

Bitcoin uses proof of work to generate new coins. In your terms, this would be the liability to redeem the coins. Miners are constantly working trying to find a new block, if one finds a new block, bitcoin is redeemed to the miner who discovered it.

Without work, there's no generation of new coins. You need the work to generate the coins, it's literally what you're saying. There is a liability, the work needs to be done. Bitcoins are not created out of thin air, they are given for work done.

[Snowshow]

~snip~

Any idiot can print numbers, and then claim they are coins, without having any liability to redeem them. That's called a fraud and not a payment system.

Bitcoin uses proof of work to generate new coins. In your terms, this would be the liability to redeem the coins. Miners are constantly working trying to find a new block, if one finds a new block, bitcoin is redeemed to the miner who discovered it.

Without work, there's no generation of new coins. You need the work to generate the coins, it's literally what you're saying. There is a liability, the work needs to be done. Bitcoins are not created out of thin air, they are given for work done.

And... another round of lies and misinformation.

Writing down a number (a record) next to miner's address after that miner provided POW, doesn't magically make that record redeemable. For a record to be redeemable someone has to have a liability to exchange it for products, services or other redeemable records like fiat money.

Bitcoins, that is, bit-coins, don't exist. A coin is either a tangible item like gold or other item with intrinsic value, or a record where its issuer has a liability to redeem it. That what you have in Satoshi's system are numbers, fake-coins, that people falsely call coins, tokens or money.

[slackovic]

Sure, if people repeatedly lie that coin called bitcoin exists then I must repeatedly address their lies. I don't care about their nonsensical analogies with DNS or evolution. The people here are lying and spreading misinformation. That's the point. Hiding behind stupid analogies won't make that lies go away.

A coin, a token, or money in the form of a record is basically a record of liability. Liability of the issuer of the record to redeem it. So, if that guy Satoshi claims that the numbers that his system is writing down are coins than he is actually claiming that someone has the liability to redeem them. Like banks redeem their records via loan repayments, like casinos redeem their records (tokens), like retailers redeem their gift cards, or corporations their bonds. But no entity exists that has the liability to redeem the record next to addresses in Satoshi's system. That's why the records that his system writes down are not coins. They're not bitcoins. They are fake numbers. Any idiot can print numbers, and then claim they are coins, without having any liability to redeem them. That's called a fraud and not a payment system.

No, you are wrong! Analogies with DNS or evolution are not nonsensical because you claim that Bitcoin doesn't exist because you can't touch it or feel it. You can't touch or feel DNS or evolution and yet they exist. How are those analogies nonsensical if they confirm that a thing can exist even if you can't touch it or feel it?

[Snowshow]

Sure, if people repeatedly lie that coin called bitcoin exists then I must repeatedly address their lies. I don't care about their nonsensical analogies with DNS or evolution. The people here are lying and spreading misinformation. That's the point. Hiding behind stupid analogies won't make that lies go away.

A coin, a token, or money in the form of a record is basically a record of liability. Liability of the issuer of the record to redeem it. So, if that guy Satoshi claims that the numbers that his system is writing down are coins than he is actually claiming that someone has the liability to redeem them. Like banks redeem their records via loan repayments, like casinos redeem their records (tokens), like retailers redeem their gift cards, or corporations their bonds. But no entity exists that has the liability to redeem the record next to addresses in Satoshi's system. That's why the records that his system writes down are not coins. They're not bitcoins. They are fake numbers. Any idiot can print numbers, and then claim they are coins, without having any liability to redeem them. That's called a fraud and not a payment system.

No, you are wrong! Analogies with DNS or evolution are not nonsensical because you claim that Bitcoin doesn't exist because you can't touch it or feel it. You can't touch or feel DNS or evolution and yet they exist. How are those analogies nonsensical if they confirm that a thing can exist even if you can't touch it or feel it?

Yes they are nonsensical because they misrepresent my position. I literally never said that bitcoin doesn't exist because you can't touch it or feel it.

I said that bitcoin doesn't exist because I checked the Satoshi's system and proved by empirical observation that neither liabilities (to redeem) nor digital products exist there. But just numbers. You can't touch or feel liabilities and digital products but they still exist. It is just that they don't exist in Satoshi's system. So no coins or bit-coins. Coins are tangible items or intangible liabilities. None of that is in Satoshi's system. Just numbers. Numbers are concepts on quantity represented by symbols (0-9). They are not invented by Satoshi. So you can't just rename numbers into bitcoin and claim that you've invented new money, coin or token. That's a lie.

[n0nce]

Anyone can write down a number a name of a non-existent thing and then clam to owe it. I can write down to own 10 Ferraris. Satoshi, via his software, can write down that a miner's address owns 10 bitcoins. Someone else can counterfeit $10,000 dollars and claim to own bank debt. All that would be false information. If I would keep insisting I own 10 Ferries, while only pointing to what I wrote down, that would be called a delusion. If I would do that publicly, that would be spreading misinformation.

If it's this easy, please do it and show how you did it. Don't worry, it's not spreading misinformation, if it's possible, it's a bug in the system and it's totally your right to exploit it. Also, if it was this easy, someone would surely simply do that (in secret or now); yet somehow I still own my own coins.

The thing that you don't understand and cannot understand without educating yourself about cryptography and signatures: you can't just write another number next to your address.

When you claim that we can't 'show the BTC assigned to our address', it's a strawman argument. That's because we don't prove ownership by 'showing the number of BTC and the corresponding address', but we prove ownership through a cryptographic signature that only the owner can provide.

I am not confused. I am simply stating the fact that none of you are able to show a thing whose name is bitcoin, and whose quantities are written next to your addresses. That's all.

Except we can. It's called cryptographic signature.

That's why you're focused on ad hominem attacks. Talking about my motivation, education and knowledge. I am having real fun here watching what people are capable to do or say just to justify false narratives and misinformation. I am viewing this as some sort of psychological experiment.

I don't attack you, I'm stating the obvious. You are talking out of your ass and embarassing yourself with your ignorance. Harsh reality, but it is what it is. Some day you might understand; or you will end up dying in your ignorance. It's up to you though; you seem not to want to learn & understand, instead keep hammering on your arguments based on wrong, naive assumptions. I don't keep my hopes up.

As for your false claims. You bought nothing with bitcoin. You transferred fake numbers to people's addresses and these people transferred the ownership of the existing things to you. Why the people did that? Probably because they are the victims of misinformation that bitcoin is an existing thing.

What even is buying? Transfer of ownership. I transferred ownership rights of some amount of BTC from my secret key to the seller's secret key, while he shipped me a product. That's the definition of buying.
Again, if you can 'just transfer fake numbers to someone's address', why don't you do it? You keep saying that it's so easily possible, but I'd like to see you do it.

I don't have opinion on bitcoin, I am exposing misinformation that bitcoin exist. I am proving that the numbers written down by the Satoshi's system are not the quantities of an existing digital thing but fake numbers.

That's wrong though; you have no, zero valid arguments why the 'numbers should be fake'. If they were, what stops you from generating such 'fake numbers' for free, yourself?

And... another round of lies and misinformation.

Writing down a number (a record) next to miner's address after that miner provided POW, doesn't magically make that record redeemable. For a record to be redeemable someone has to have a liability to exchange it for products, services or other redeemable records like fiat money.

Bitcoins, that is, bit-coins, don't exist. A coin is either a tangible item like gold or other item with intrinsic value, or a record where its issuer has a liability to redeem it. That what you have in Satoshi's system are numbers, fake-coins, that people falsely call coins, tokens or money.

Dude, we understand. You're super proud that you understood how the banking system works. However, that doesn't mean every other payment system has to work the same way..
In fact, Bitcoin is more akin to 'antique money' than 'modern money'. Where people had gold coins that they paid with. The value wasn't in something 'backing the coin', some 'liability' or some bank. It was the value of the material, simple as that. Exact same thing with Bitcoin. A gold coin also wasn't 'redeemable' in the sense that a modern day banknote is; but people willingly traded goods for it since they knew it had value. Value due to scarcity and demand, but also through heaps of expended energy to get that shit out of the ground.

If you don't understand why, read more about it and ask specific questions. But this discussion doesn't help you understand and won't convince anyone of your pathetically wrong assumptions and derived wrong claims.

I also start to think it makes no sense to waste any more of my time with you. I tend to join these types of discussions so other users are not misinformed by trolls & can read my objective explanations why the troll is wrong, however I'm confident I've proven it enough by now.

[slackovic]

Yes they are nonsensical because they misrepresent my position. I literally never said that bitcoin doesn't exist because you can't touch it or feel it.

I said that bitcoin doesn't exist because I checked the Satoshi's system and proved by empirical observation that neither liabilities (to redeem) nor digital products exist there. But just numbers. You can't touch or feel liabilities and digital products but they still exist. It is just that they don't exist in Satoshi's system. So no coins or bit-coins. Coins are tangible items or intangible liabilities. None of that is in Satoshi's system. Just numbers. Numbers are concepts on quantity represented by symbols (0-9). They are neither coins, nor invented by Satoshi.

No, you said simply that Bitcoin doesn't exist and that's it. Bunch of gibberish about why it doesn't exist that doesn't make sense to any of us, only to you. You are constantly saying that Bitcoin must represent something in the real world. IT DOES NOT REPRESENT ANYTHING AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO IN ORDER FOR IT TO HAVE VALUE!

[Western_Boris]

This troll does not seem to understand that everything digital, including money on his bank account, these messages that he writes, this picture I draw on my computer with Paint... and Bitcoin as a digital currency. They are all digital, meaning they are all ones and zeros on the computer network. Nothing more, just numbers. Not even big numbers, just ones and zeros at the very basic level.

The troll says that these ones and zeros are not real and they do not have any value. That is simply incorrect. Ones and zeroes in the meaning of Bitcoin are following rules, open source code and they need to be in the Bitcoin blockchain network to have the value as a Bitcoin. If the troll writes his own numbers on his computer or on a piece of paper, those numbers do not have any value as a Bitcoin because they are not included in the Bitcoin network or blockchain.

So, Bitcoin is not only numbers. It is a network operating on a specific rules and only the exact correct computer code, verified by thousands of computers, gets the status of being Bitcoins. And the prove that Bitcoins have value and they exists? You can buy stuff with it. I for example work for an online store which accepts Bitcoin as a payment. We are not changing goods to nothing or thin air. We are changing goods to digital currency. Ones and zeroes that exists in the Bitcoin blockchain, that are created by using computational power and electricity and that are verified by thousands of computers. So there is no question about if it exists or not.

The troll might have some brain disability to not understand digital stuff. And I do not mean to insult him. Life is not easy enough for him even without any insults with a brain like that so I'm more like sad for him because of how hard life must be for him.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Anyone can write down a number a name of a non-existent thing and then clam to owe it.

Yes, but that won't be necessarily true. For example, you can tell me that you own 1 BTC (the fake number as you say), but if you don't provide me a valid signature which proves that you're the owner of the outputs, then I'll have to keep your word for it. So it's not the same as having a ledger which can be altered by anyone.

It is clear that you don't know anything not only about Bitcoin, but about cryptography in general.

Satoshi, via his software, can write down that a miner's address owns 10 bitcoins.

But, that won't make it true, because they won't be able to provide the valid signature.

You're wrong. Learn to admit and move on.