How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[Snowshow]

People don't agree that the ladger is satisfactory

Guess what: You don't get to choose what others agree upon. I personally find it very useful, if others find it so. Transferring value across the borders, with no one's permission. No one can alter past transactions of the ledger, no matter the good excuse. The costs to transact are nearly zero. It's more private. It's faster.

Even if those units don't represent anything, I don't have a problem as long as there are others who're also willing to accept it same like I do. What the hell is so difficult to grasp about that?

Well, I don't have a problem if you and others agree that you are a bird and able to fly. I am simply debunking your nonsense. You are not a bird. You are not able to fly. You are not transferring value. There's no bitcoin. Do we now understand each other?

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[FatFork]

Internet is used by nodes to store fake numbers. Without the internet there wouldn't be bitcoin fraud.

I didn't ask you to tell me what is Internet compared to Bitcoin. I asked you to tell me how can you prove that Internet exists? If you can accept the fact that Internet is used for two computers to communicate, then Bitcoin's proof of existence is the fact that it is used to trade.

Internet is computers and communication protocols. Those exist. Bitcoin is not "used" given it doesn't exist. Numbers are attached to address by Satoshi's system. Attaching numbers is a proof that numbers are attached. Attaching letters is proof that letters are attached. Attaching a picture to a email message is proof that a picture is attached. No bitcoins magically emerge by attaching one thing to another. You believe in some sort of alchemy. Try to use your brains for a second instead of repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

Your level of your ignorance is astounding.

The Internet exists. Okay, I agree. But does the DNS protocol exist? It is also just a collection of numbers attached to addresses by your definition. Denying the use of Bitcoin is the same as denying the use of DNS. Could you please show me the DNS? No? You can't see it, hear it, or touch it, yet it exists and billions of people use it every day.

[n0nce]

You are not storing or moving value, but numbers. A number is a concept on quantity of things. A thing is value, not a number. If there's a number "10", next to your name or address, this is suggesting that there are 10 pieces of a thing in your possession. But if the thing is not in your possession, the number is fake. And that's exactly the case with bitcoin. There's no such thing as bitcoin in the possession of an address holder which has a specific number attached to their address. So, blockchain is just a giant collection of fake numbers. And bitcoin cannot be value by definition, given it doesn't exist.

This is where you're wrong: in Bitcoin there are two 'numbers': (1) the number telling how many coins you own, which is like the number of USD on your bank account, sure that's just a number. But you have number (2) which is a cryptographic key that grants you ownership rights to a certain amount of Bitcoin. This second number would be the 'ounce of gold' sitting in your safe, for instance, while the first one is the valuation that someone gives it.

As someone said before, if Bitcoin is just numbers and it's so easy to generate them, why don't you generate such a number (private key) and sell it for hundreds of thousands of dollars?

It's not possible because a randomly generated number has no value; only those which have Bitcoin sent to them, originating from a coinbase transaction which you can only do by expending large amounts of energy using mining hardware that costs large amounts of $ to buy and install.

Saying or writing down that you own 5 ounces of gold, means you're able to show an actual metal in your possession. Otherwise you're lying. Whan you say that you own 5 bitcoins, or this is written down in your wallet, but you're not able to show a digital product in the quantity of 5, that means you're lying and that the wallet has fake numbers.

It's hard for you to understand since you're so engrained in the traditional banking system and assume Bitcoin works the same way. While your bank account just tells you the number of something you own, the Bitcoin blockchain doesn't. The 'thing you own' is on the blockchain; hence it doesn't and can't 'point to something in your possession'.

[BlackHatCoiner]

It's hard for you to understand since you're so engrained in the traditional banking system and assume Bitcoin works the same way.

What they can't comprehend is that Bitcoin is a ledger of transactions, which shows who owns what. They're so obsessed that ledgers must show things that exist, that we'll probably never change their minds.

I'm still waiting an answer to this:

But, even if you don't believe us, even though we should have convinced you by now, what about the rest of the world? There are unbelievably smarter people than me and you who are astonished by the way it works and fight tooth and nail to accomplish usage in a global scale. Doesn't it seem extravagant to you to say that every single one of the millions of Bitcoin users is a psycho?

Unless you think you're the smartest.

[slackovic]

Internet is computers and communication protocols. Those exist. Bitcoin is not "used" given it doesn't exist. Numbers are attached to address by Satoshi's system. Attaching numbers is a proof that numbers are attached. Attaching letters is proof that letters are attached. Attaching a picture to a email message is proof that a picture is attached. No bitcoins magically emerge by attaching one thing to another. You believe in some sort of alchemy. Try to use your brains for a second instead of repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

Your level of your ignorance is astounding.

The Internet exists. Okay, I agree. But does the DNS protocol exist? It is also just a collection of numbers attached to addresses by your definition. Denying the use of Bitcoin is the same as denying the use of DNS. Could you please show me the DNS? No? You can't see it, hear it, or touch it, yet it exists and billions of people use it every day.

I think he will never admit that he is wrong about the fact that Bitcoin does not exist. He says that Internet is computers and communication protocols. OK, you can see and touch computers. But can you see and touch a communication protocol (like DNS in this example)? If you can't touch it, I guess it doesn't exist so I don't really know how does my computer know what web site to display when I enter bitcointalk.org into the address bar.

[Snowshow]

Internet is used by nodes to store fake numbers. Without the internet there wouldn't be bitcoin fraud.

I didn't ask you to tell me what is Internet compared to Bitcoin. I asked you to tell me how can you prove that Internet exists? If you can accept the fact that Internet is used for two computers to communicate, then Bitcoin's proof of existence is the fact that it is used to trade.

Internet is computers and communication protocols. Those exist. Bitcoin is not "used" given it doesn't exist. Numbers are attached to address by Satoshi's system. Attaching numbers is a proof that numbers are attached. Attaching letters is proof that letters are attached. Attaching a picture to a email message is proof that a picture is attached. No bitcoins magically emerge by attaching one thing to another. You believe in some sort of alchemy. Try to use your brains for a second instead of repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

Your level of your ignorance is astounding.

The Internet exists. Okay, I agree. But does the DNS protocol exist? It is also just a collection of numbers attached to addresses by your definition. Denying the use of Bitcoin is the same as denying the use of DNS. Could you please show me the DNS? No? You can't see it, hear it, or touch it, yet it exists and billions of people use it every day.

So, how much do you pay for using DNS protocols? And how much do you pay for attaching the number "10" to your crypto address in Satoshi's system? Do you now understand the true meaning of the phrase: "Your level of your ignorance is astounding."?

You are not storing or moving value, but numbers. A number is a concept on quantity of things. A thing is value, not a number. If there's a number "10", next to your name or address, this is suggesting that there are 10 pieces of a thing in your possession. But if the thing is not in your possession, the number is fake. And that's exactly the case with bitcoin. There's no such thing as bitcoin in the possession of an address holder which has a specific number attached to their address. So, blockchain is just a giant collection of fake numbers. And bitcoin cannot be value by definition, given it doesn't exist.

This is where you're wrong: in Bitcoin there are two 'numbers': (1) the number telling how many coins you own, which is like the number of USD on your bank account, sure that's just a number. But you have number (2) which is a cryptographic key that grants you ownership rights to a certain amount of Bitcoin. This second number would be the 'ounce of gold' sitting in your safe, for instance, while the first one is the valuation that someone gives it.

As someone said before, if Bitcoin is just numbers and it's so easy to generate them, why don't you generate such a number (private key) and sell it for hundreds of thousands of dollars?

It's not possible because a randomly generated number has no value; only those which have Bitcoin sent to them, originating from a coinbase transaction which you can only do by expending large amounts of energy using mining hardware that costs large amounts of $ to buy and install.

Saying or writing down that you own 5 ounces of gold, means you're able to show an actual metal in your possession. Otherwise you're lying. Whan you say that you own 5 bitcoins, or this is written down in your wallet, but you're not able to show a digital product in the quantity of 5, that means you're lying and that the wallet has fake numbers.

It's hard for you to understand since you're so engrained in the traditional banking system and assume Bitcoin works the same way. While your bank account just tells you the number of something you own, the Bitcoin blockchain doesn't. The 'thing you own' is on the blockchain; hence it doesn't and can't 'point to something in your possession'.

When I go to a web site or install the wallet app to get a cryptographic key, and "0" is attached to my address, suggesting I own 0 coins, how that differs from a guy that has 1,000,000 attached? We both have zero property to show. There's no difference in ownership between us. If you were to ask that guy to prove that he actually owns million coins he wouldn't be able to show something that I am not able to show. We both have numbers attached, but own no bitcoins. No coins. No money. No property. Nothing. It's like if a system would write down that I have 0 Porsches and that guy have 10 Porsches. None of us would be able to show Porsches. So, one can attach whatever number to whatever name. That literally means nothing.

A randomly generated number is still a number. It's not a cat. A randomly generated Ferrari would still be a Ferrari. It doesn't matter how you generate something. If I work 10 hours a day for a year and get the same amount of money as someone who win a lottery that doesn't mean my money is more valuable.

[slackovic]

So, how much do you pay for using DNS protocols? And how much do you pay for attaching the number "10" to your crypto address in Satoshi's system? Do you now understand the true meaning of the phrase: "Your level of your ignorance is astounding."?

Oh, now it's not the matter of existence, is it? You told me that Bitcoin doesn't exist because you can't show it to someone. We told you that communication protocols like DNS also can't be shown to someone but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Using of DNS protocol is free. But guess what - using of Bitcoin is also free. You have to pay if you want to own Bitcoin, but you don't have to pay to use it.

[arcmetal]

Internet is computers and communication protocols. Those exist. Bitcoin is not "used" given it doesn't exist. Numbers are attached to address by Satoshi's system. Attaching numbers is a proof that numbers are attached. Attaching letters is proof that letters are attached. Attaching a picture to a email message is proof that a picture is attached. No bitcoins magically emerge by attaching one thing to another. You believe in some sort of alchemy. Try to use your brains for a second instead of repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

Your level of your ignorance is astounding.

The Internet exists. Okay, I agree. But does the DNS protocol exist? It is also just a collection of numbers attached to addresses by your definition. Denying the use of Bitcoin is the same as denying the use of DNS. Could you please show me the DNS? No? You can't see it, hear it, or touch it, yet it exists and billions of people use it every day.

I think he will never admit that he is wrong about the fact that Bitcoin does not exist. He says that Internet is computers and communication protocols. OK, you can see and touch computers. But can you see and touch a communication protocol (like DNS in this example)? If you can't touch it, I guess it doesn't exist so I don't really know how does my computer know what web site to display when I enter bitcointalk.org into the address bar.

It can even go further than proving the existence of DNS.  How about proving that "numbers" are being added up inside a computer. Can you touch a number that is running around inside a computer?  Since numbers aren't "real", and they are just an idea ... what then is happening inside of a computer's processor.  It really is just low voltages being compared from one transistor to another, a 0 volt here, a 3 volt there.  Those voltages aren't "numbers".  This then suggests that nothing is happening inside of any computer, and therefore nothing with a computer is possible, let alone communication via an internet.

Delusional minds derive delusional thoughts.

Here a quote from Bill Murray seems appropriate:

It's hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person.

[Snowshow]

So, how much do you pay for using DNS protocols? And how much do you pay for attaching the number "10" to your crypto address in Satoshi's system? Do you now understand the true meaning of the phrase: "Your level of your ignorance is astounding."?

Oh, now it's not the matter of existence, is it? You told me that Bitcoin doesn't exist because you can't show it to someone. We told you that communication protocols like DNS also can't be shown to someone but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Using of DNS protocol is free. But guess what - using of Bitcoin is also free. You have to pay if you want to own Bitcoin, but you don't have to pay to use it.

Yes, bitcoin doesn't exist. Numbers do, if you attach them to someone's name. So, you cannot show a digital asset called bitcoin. You can show numbers. If you say that 5 digital books or movies exist you are not supposed to show number 5. But books and movies. Can you comprehend something so simple?

[FatFork]

Internet is used by nodes to store fake numbers. Without the internet there wouldn't be bitcoin fraud.

I didn't ask you to tell me what is Internet compared to Bitcoin. I asked you to tell me how can you prove that Internet exists? If you can accept the fact that Internet is used for two computers to communicate, then Bitcoin's proof of existence is the fact that it is used to trade.

Internet is computers and communication protocols. Those exist. Bitcoin is not "used" given it doesn't exist. Numbers are attached to address by Satoshi's system. Attaching numbers is a proof that numbers are attached. Attaching letters is proof that letters are attached. Attaching a picture to a email message is proof that a picture is attached. No bitcoins magically emerge by attaching one thing to another. You believe in some sort of alchemy. Try to use your brains for a second instead of repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

Your level of your ignorance is astounding.

The Internet exists. Okay, I agree. But does the DNS protocol exist? It is also just a collection of numbers attached to addresses by your definition. Denying the use of Bitcoin is the same as denying the use of DNS. Could you please show me the DNS? No? You can't see it, hear it, or touch it, yet it exists and billions of people use it every day.

So, how much do you pay for using DNS protocols? And how much do you pay for attaching the number "10" to your crypto address in Satoshi's system? Do you now understand the true meaning of the phrase: "Your level of your ignorance is astounding."?

How much I pay for the DNS system isn't relevant to the discussion. Do you think it's free?

Let's get back on topic. Do you now deny the existence of Bitcoin or do you imply that it is too expensive?

Yes, bitcoin doesn't exist. Numbers do, if you attach them to someone's name. So, you cannot show a digital asset called bitcoin. You can show numbers. If you say that 5 digital books or movies exist you are not supposed to show number 5. But books and movies. Can you comprehend something so simple?

Yes, bitcoin is intangible. Everything is digital. What's your point?
Has anyone here ever claimed otherwise? But just because you can't touch it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Can you comprehend something so simple?

[suzanne5223]

It was fun reading everything the Op said about Bitcoin and the great exciting part is when the Op said she "discovered is that bitcoin system is not actually a payment system. Instead, it is a messaging system, similar to SMS, Viber, WhatsApp, or Email" and ' From that discovery, it follows that Bitcoin itself is not money, but a message"
When money was said to be a commodity thats generally accepted as payment for goods and services. For the record, Bitcoin has all these attributes and I am surprised with the Op level of naiveness about Bitcoin.

[Snowshow]

It's hard for you to understand since you're so engrained in the traditional banking system and assume Bitcoin works the same way.

What they can't comprehend is that Bitcoin is a ledger of transactions, which shows who owns what. They're so obsessed that ledgers must show things that exist, that we'll probably never change their minds.

I'm still waiting an answer to this:

But, even if you don't believe us, even though we should have convinced you by now, what about the rest of the world? There are unbelievably smarter people than me and you who are astonished by the way it works and fight tooth and nail to accomplish usage in a global scale. Doesn't it seem extravagant to you to say that every single one of the millions of Bitcoin users is a psycho?

Unless you think you're the smartest.

WOW, really? Bitcoin is a ledger of transactions? Nice. Now everyone can just download the ledger and have bitcoins. For free. Hahaha. I am really having fun. It's so amusing to read your rationalizations that try to justify Satoshi's sacred text. Keep up the good work.

[n0nce]

WOW, really? Bitcoin is a ledger of transactions? Nice. Now everyone can just download the ledger and have bitcoins. For free. Hahaha. I am really having fun. It's so amusing to read your rationalizations that try to justify Satoshi's sacred text. Keep up the good work.

Please try! Really, I encourage you to please try doing so. Feel free to make a topic about it in case you get stuck somewhere and report back why and where it failed and why / where you were wrong so everyone can learn from your mistakes.

Just download the blockchain, steal some coins and sell them for fiat somewhere (I can buy them off you if you manage to get coins by just downloading the blockchain). Getting coins means being able to transfer them by the way. Thats the definition of ownership here. I want to receive them from you in my wallet, okay?

Good luck!

[FatFork]

... and I am surprised with the Op level of naiveness about Bitcoin.

Don't be surprised. This is nothing new for him. He has claimed the same thing over the past four or five years. ^{[as fxsurfer, antikvark and Antithesis]}

He must be so stubborn that he won't admit he's been wrong the whole time. I can see how this can drive a man crazy. 

[Snowshow]

How much I pay for the DNS system isn't relevant to the discussion. Do you think it's free?

Let's get back on topic. Do you now deny the existence of Bitcoin or do you imply that it is too expensive?

I deny nothing. I am simply stating the fact that Bitcoin doesn't exist.
And I am saying that it is stupid to pay money just because a number will be attached to your name. Paying for communication via internet is reasonable. That's why we pay our internet providers. Paying for swapping numbers between addresses is not reasonable. So, it's pretty simple.

Yes, bitcoin is intangible. Everything is digital. What's your point?
Has anyone here ever claimed otherwise? But just because you can't touch it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Can you comprehend something so simple?

My point is what I have wrote: if you say that 5 digital(intangible) books or movies exist, you are not supposed to show number "5". But books and movies.

In the same way, if you say that a specific number of digital (intangible) bitcois exists, you're not supposed to show number, but digital products. However, all you can show is a number. Essentially, you are proving that bitcoin doesn't exist.

[FatFork]

How much I pay for the DNS system isn't relevant to the discussion. Do you think it's free?

Let's get back on topic. Do you now deny the existence of Bitcoin or do you imply that it is too expensive?

I deny nothing. I am simply stating the fact that Bitcoin doesn't exist.

And I gave you an example that proves that your arguments are flawed.
I ask you again, does DNS exist? Can you show it to me?

And I am saying that it is stupid to pay money just because a number will be attached to your name. Paying for communication via internet is reasonable. That's why we pay our internet providers. Paying for swapping numbers between addresses is not reasonable. So, it's pretty simple.

Now you say over 100 million people around the world are stupid? Wow, talk about arrogance!

My point is what I have wrote: if you say that 5 digital(intangible) books or movies exist, you are not supposed to show number "5". But books and movies.

In fact, you can't really show a digital book. Unfortunately, humans do not have the ability to see (or perceive) digital electrical impulses stored and transmitted through electronic circuits. All you can do is show a visual (or audial) representation of digital data, whether it be a digital book, picture, audio recording, or any other data type, including bitcoin.

In the same way, if you say that a specific number of digital (intangible) bitcois exists, you're not supposed to show number, but digital products. However, all you can show is a number. Essentially, you are proving that bitcoin doesn't exist.

In light of what I just explained, you can't really show a digital product, so your argument is, once again, invalid.

[Snowshow]

And I gave you an example that proves that your arguments are flawed.
I ask you again, does DNS exist? Can you show it to me?

You couldn't have proved that my arguments are flawed because I made no arguments. I was simply stating facts. Saying that the Sun is bigger than the Moon is not an argument. Saying that bitcoin doesn't exist in Satoshi's system is not an argument. It's a statement of fact. I am simply observing the system. When people say that they bought bitcoin, all I can see is the change of a number next to their address. So, I observe a couple of math symbols, and not some revolutionary digital product that is capable of making people free. Then, I check the network. And I see nodes that are keeping the numbers and addresses stored in a database. Again, no revolutionary digital product there. Than I check the wallet app. I see only keys that everyone got for free. And numbers attached to address. And letters B, T, and C. But again, I see no revolutionary digital product there. So, I have empirically confirmed that no revolutionary digital product exists in the Satoshi's system. Not a single bitcoin holder has ever demonstrated to own such a product when joining the system. What we all observe is a simple system that attaches numbers to addresses and keeps that stored in a distributed database. People then simply read that numbers via wallet applications. That's literally everything. A revolutionary digital product, a new form of money, an advanced electronic cash, ... exist only in human imagination.  

Now you say over 100 million people around the world are stupid? Wow, talk about arrogance!

I would never say that Elon Musk is stupid. Nor anyone here. You are just ignorant or driven by greed, so you shut down your brains when discussing bitcoin issues.

In fact, you can't really show a digital book. Unfortunately, humans do not have the ability to see (or perceive) digital electrical impulses stored and transmitted through electronic circuits. All you can do is show a visual (or audial) representation of digital data, whether it be a digital book, picture, audio recording, or any other data type, including bitcoin.

I can prove that a digital book exists by reading text or watching pictures after opening a file. In the same way you can prove that a number is attached to your address when opening your wallet. But you cannot prove that there's a digital product called bitcoin.

[BlackHatCoiner]

So, why are you here? Why don't you live your life with this debt-based money you love using of, and leave those "clumsy" Bitcoiners to live their own lives with their "fraudulent money" as you're saying?

You appear once in a while, and want to convince us all that you're right. You repeat the same bullshit, "Bitcoin doesn't exist", "Satoshi lies you" etc., to achieve what exactly? This behavior shows me you're either ill-intentioned or simply problematic. Perhaps both.

I've repeatedly told you that Bitcoin doesn't have a tangible representation and only exists units-wise. People can imagine it exists, that it's some sort digital metal, that it's a public ledger, it's a matter of creativity beyond a certain level.

[n0nce]

My point is what I have wrote: if you say that 5 digital(intangible) books or movies exist, you are not supposed to show number "5". But books and movies.

In the same way, if you say that a specific number of digital (intangible) bitcois exists, you're not supposed to show number, but digital products. However, all you can show is a number. Essentially, you are proving that bitcoin doesn't exist.

Do you even read my replies?

Here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389815.msg59606677#msg59606677
I explained that there are two numbers in bitcoin. One is the balance, sure that's just a number. But we also have private and public keys (which are numbers) that prove the ownership.

Nobody claims that showing the first number (balance) proves ownership. It's the 'second number', the cryptographic keys.

Since you claim these are easy to generate, I challenge you to just 'come up with' or 'generate' a number (key) that grants you 1BTC.

You also didn't reply to my challenge of downloading the blockchain and thus owning all the coins (which you laughingly claimed possible before). Why?

[NotATether]

So if I digested all the information correctly, you are saying that Bitcoin (and by extension other cryptos that are forks of Bitcoin) is just a messaging system?

Actually, that's only partially correct. Bitcoin uses a messaging system called ZeroMQ to talk to peers. This is an external software and not directly part of Core.

The messages being relayed constitute a cryptographic financial system, because of the consensus rules (also coded in Bitcoin Core, but not in any particular source file) obeyed by all peers, their immutability, and penalties applied to nodes that break the consensus rules - they automatically fork themselves off the network.