How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[Snowshow]

So I think what you are saying is that Bitcoin doesn't have any inherent value in it. This I believe (to the best of my knowledge, someone correct me if I am wrong. I am also still learning) is true. Bitcoin price is simply determined by supply and demand. And like gold or silver or copper, exchanges have put a price to the scarcity of Bitcoin and the demand for it which is what determines price.

Your second comment is correct in the sense that a collection of people in a market of bitcoin, trading, determines bitcoin's price, but the part I have bolded is, I am afraid, a bit incorrect.

Bitcoin does have inherent value.  As I was just explaining to someone (someone that just asked me about bitcoin, even though I have stopped telling people about it, I'll still reply to questions if someone asks).  Among its many inherent values there is one that seems very interesting and it may be one of those properties that first alerted people to something new going on here.  

I explained it this way:  ... So, you have used computers.  You know about directories and files (text files, jpegs, pngs, executables, etc).  You know that you can make copies of these files.  You can make as many copies as you want of these files.  This is a piece of electronic data, and anyone can make as many copies of this data as you want, so they have some, although little value, individually.  ... One thing that the blockchain technology produces is a way to make unique pieces of data.  Once you send someone a small piece of bitcoin, no one, not even you can send someone else a copy of that same piece of bitcoin.

So here we have for the first time in the history of computers (as far as I know), in the history of electronic data, a technology that can produce unique, uncopyable, pieces of electronic data.

This is one of the, among many, inherent values of bitcoin.

Let's now test your theory. What can bitcoin holders do with those "inherent values" if no one wants to trade their values for bitcoin? Obviously, if something has value, that those who hold that value must be able to utilize it. So, how can the bitcoin holders utilize bitcoins if nobody wants to buy bitcoins?

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[minime0105]

So I think what you are saying is that Bitcoin doesn't have any inherent value in it. This I believe (to the best of my knowledge, someone correct me if I am wrong. I am also still learning) is true. Bitcoin price is simply determined by supply and demand. And like gold or silver or copper, exchanges have put a price to the scarcity of Bitcoin and the demand for it which is what determines price.

Bitcoin price is determined from the demand and supply of the investment and particularly those people that make supply or make support for cryptocurrency to get values.when ever the price changes their is something behind it, either the price is for good or bad, but it can come to the market and for benefits of people when investors who buy cryptocurrency is much than who supplies cryptocurrency.

[tadamichi]

So, how can the bitcoin holders utilize bitcoins if nobody wants to buy bitcoins?

(Requires actually owning Bitcoin)

• You can still send and receive Bitcoin even if no one buys them.
• You can cryptographically sign messages.
• You can immortalise not censorable messages on the chain(Julian Assange proved he was alive like this)
• Becoming censorship resitant/ have un-confiscatable assets.

(Makes it more likely if you’ve been into Bitcoin)

• Learning about how to apply cryptography in practice.
• Run a node to learn more about computer science.
• Inspect the code/ processes to learn about how to handle production software well.
• Learning about P2P networks.
• Learning more about software engineering.
• Learning about game theory.
• Learning about economics and human nature.
• Learning how money functions.
• Understand why decentralization matters.
• Recognise the flaws in our current system.
• Meet amazing people who are withstanding the highest hostility possible, to keep freedom alive.
• Learn more about physics/ engineering to make mining more efficient/ utilise it differently.
• Recognize bs even faster

See even if this thing doesnt bring in any profits/ money, the value is infinite for people who use it correctly. This list can for sure grow a lot longer.

Now:

• How can you personally utilise gold without being a goldsmith, if no one accepts it anymore?
• How can you use fiat when no accepts it anymore?

You’re touching the non productive nature of money, without realising this applies to any monetary good, and Bitcoin might not even be bad compared to previous forms of money. The barrier to even understand Bitcoin is high for many people, once you really understand it, you’ll touch so many different fields, because it’s requires this to really get there.

[Snowshow]

So, how can the bitcoin holders utilize bitcoins if nobody wants to buy bitcoins?

(Requires actually owning Bitcoin)

• You can still send and receive Bitcoin even if no one buys them.
• You can cryptographically sign messages.
• You can immortalise not censorable messages on the chain(Julian Assange proved he was alive like this)
• Becoming censorship resitant/ have un-confiscatable assets.

(Makes it more likely if you’ve been into Bitcoin)

• Learning about how to apply cryptography in practice.
• Run a node to learn more about computer science.
• Inspect the code/ processes to learn about how to handle production software well.
• Learning about P2P networks.
• Learning more about software engineering.
• Learning about game theory.
• Learning about economics and human nature.
• Learning how money functions.
• Understand why decentralization matters.
• Recognise the flaws in our current system.
• Meet amazing people who are withstanding the highest hostility possible, to keep freedom alive.
• Learn more about physics/ engineering to make mining more efficient/ utilise it differently.
• Recognize bs even faster

See even if this thing doesnt bring in any profits/ money, the value is infinite for people who use it correctly. This list can for sure grow a lot longer.

Now:

• How can you personally utilise gold without being a goldsmith, if no one accepts it anymore?
• How can you use fiat when no accepts it anymore?

You’re touching the non productive nature of money, without realising this applies to any monetary good, and Bitcoin might not even be bad compared to previous forms of money. The barrier to even understand Bitcoin is high for many people, once you really understand it, you’ll touch so many different fields, because it’s requires this to really get there.

That has nothing to do with utilization, but is just nonsense created in your imagination. If bitcoin can be utilized, then a person that has 1,000,000 BTC, in comparation with a person that has 0.0001 BTC, must be able to get 10,000,000,000 more benefit without selling BTC to someone else. But obviously this is impossible. Because BTC is a number. Mathematical abstraction with zero utilization capacity. It's mind boggling how much stupidity you're are capable to produce only to try to defend undefendable.

Regarding the rest. My bike is non productive. But I can utilize it. My fiat money is non productive. But I can utilize it, as explained in the OP. That's because the first is a resource and the second is a record of a resource (debt). Your bitcoin is neither. It's a unit of a number created in imagination of an anonymous person or a group of people. That's why no one is able to utilize it and everyone is forced to dump it on someone else. Like in all fraudulent investment schemes. Stop defending this scam. You look foolish.

[JayJuanGee]

So I think what you are saying is that Bitcoin doesn't have any inherent value in it. This I believe (to the best of my knowledge, someone correct me if I am wrong. I am also still learning) is true.

The core value proposition of any monetary good is its properties as money, its not so much about wiping your ass with it or using it as jewellery, doing so would hurt the monetary value anyways. It doesnt have many functions outside of being used as money, but this doesnt make it valueless. Its literally what its designed as, this whole discussion is pointless, because he doesnt even understand the basic concept of money and creates more and more pseudo-intellectual theories since months, without even accepting any feedback.

Through the years, some of the frameworks regarding what is value and what is bitcoin have increasingly been articulated in more and more various ways - which does seem to increase the understandings of what bitcoin is and the various kinds of ways that it can be used.

Accordingly, bitcoin ends up challenging some of our own previous frameworks and ideas about what brings value, and even bringing better understandings to many of us regarding some of the strange ways that our current monetary system has been working (or not working so well for some folks).

Sure Snowshow has been attempting to adapt his various arguments too in order to describe the many ways that he believes bitcoin does not have any value and his claims that it is one BIG scam - while at the same time, he ends up contributing to show how vacuous his various arguments because we have actual real word evidence showing that bitcoin goes way beyond the various ways that he says that it does not do anything or that it is just one BIG scam.

Maybe it does not hurt for us to argue a bit with Snowshow to point to the various ways that empirical evidence does not support his claims regarding the present status of bitcoin and his speculations about the future are therefore also on shaking grounds and therefore unlikely to become true.

Just taking the concepts of intrinsic value and money.

Intrinsic value - sure it would seem that bitcoin could not have any intrinsic value because it did not even exist 14 years ago.  It came into existence perhaps as an idea in its October 31, 2008 white paper that drew from previous ideas (and attempts at money and information systems), and then of course, it went live on January 3, 2009.  So, we might be able to admit that bitcoin's value came into existence - and or that new kinds of value came into existence upon bitcoin's invention and going into practice and so in those kinds of way there can be new ways that value can come into the world and possibilities are enhanced. and even the human condition ends up being enhanced because there are new ways that value has come into the world and can bring value in ways that previously had been unattainable because the vehicle/entity/practice did not exist.

For sure, bitcoin goes way beyond traditional concepts of money, so bitcoin is way more than just money, and seems to be better money than the money that already exist (and/or has historically existed).   Sure there are some ways that bitcoin might have some challenges, for example with the need for electricity or the internet or ways to communicate, so in that sense, there are ways that bitcoin is vulnerable - and even technologically confusing regarding the various ways that it can be communicated and/or stored.  So yeah it does seem that Snowshow has been trying to appeal to a variety of concepts (such as money) that he either does not really understand or he is just vaguely and selectively referring to a variety of concepts to make it appear that bitcoin has no value because it does not fit into his frameworks and bitcoin is confusing.. which admittedly bitcoin is confusing when any of us dive into it and attempt to understand all aspects of it.

Debt is a resource my ass! It provides shit other than slavery to the people, socialism and capitalism for the rich, politics, corrupts and other people like that. Society middle classes are wiped out at the expense of your so called (stupid) resource "debt". Debt is not a resource just because they tell you it is. You're so naive that chickens can see clearly what you cannot see!

I question whether it is helpful to proclaim that debt is not valuable or that debt cannot be valuable.  Instead it seems that debt has become a systematic intrinsic formulation of current monetary systems that facilitate their using current systems oas smoke and mirrors and deciving people in terms of what money is and how it is distributed, which surely is far from fair and in many ways quite oppressive to some groups who wrongly believe that the money that they hold is not constantly being debased and they are being robbed on an ongoing basis by the debasement of money - and the incentives that are being created to cause everyone holding money to spend it in order to make the economy work.  Those systems are not normal, even though Snowshow seems to be arguing them as if they were fair and normal and that sound money like bitcoin is inferior to debt based systems. 

Anyhow, I guess I am just agreeing with Snowshow in regards to debt is not bad in itself, but it surely does not follow that having it as a system-wide practice would be superior to some kind of sound money system, such as bitcoin.  Debt still could be used with bitcoin, but debt would not become the basis of bitcoin's system because its foundational level is not designed like that.  Surely there could be systems that attempt to suggest that they are based on bitcoin and use various forms of debt (as if it were a second layer built on or besides bitcoin), but if push comes to shove, bitcoin inspires the backing of those kinds of systems too. 

For sure many of us who recognize the value of bitcoin can appreciate that many of the systematic wide uses of debt are going to need to adjust themselves in the years to come while bitcoin will continue to get more valuable relative to all of those other systems, and to the extent that any of them can be saved, they likely shoud be attempting to figure out ways to peg themselves to bitcoin.. the soundest of monies ever known to man and the facilitator of the largest transfer of wealth in human history.. still in its early stages.

It's a number that you get when giving your resources to someone in order to join Nakamoto scheme.

Thus doesn't the value of your resources get transcribed to bitcoin. Isn't this how gold gets its value? If (hypothetically) suddenly people said gold is not useful, then its price would drop because the value of the resource (our time + energy) that we are willing to pay for it is less.

Another reason could be the supply of gold increasing, if were really thinking long term and about the upcoming age of space exploration, gold might not be the best way to store value for humanity. There is just too much of it.

There's the concept of new gold coming into the picture, but there is also the concept that if gold's price or its demand goes up, then there are more incentives to look for it or to extract it from places that it might not have been extractable at lower prices (such as extracting it from the ocean waters).

So surely we have understood physical gold to have been historically amongst the soundest of monies before bitcoin, and surely with bitcoin, the demand or the price does not cause an ability to have more bitcoin produced.  Every 10 minutes.. tick tock next block, and the supply is fixed, which is truly and interesting phenomena that was invented and put into place through bitcoin, but has never previously been put into practice so in that regard, it is quite interesting to see how it is playing out so far and how it will continue to play out - including various attacks on bitcoin (whether intentional or inadvertent) and various ways to attempt to break bitcoin, to gamble with bitcoin - or even to create distractions in which various coins, projects or value holding/transmitting concepts try to get themselves as a bitcoin replacement or a way to supplement or dilute bitcoin's supply, and so far it seems to be that nothing really comes close to bitcoin - even if there are a lot of diversions and distractions and ways that our eyes can be taken off of the prize, namely my lil precious.   

So, how can the bitcoin holders utilize bitcoins if nobody wants to buy bitcoins?

(Requires actually owning Bitcoin)

• You can still send and receive Bitcoin even if no one buys them.
• You can cryptographically sign messages.
• You can immortalise not censorable messages on the chain(Julian Assange proved he was alive like this)
• Becoming censorship resitant/ have un-confiscatable assets.

(Makes it more likely if you’ve been into Bitcoin)

• Learning about how to apply cryptography in practice.
• Run a node to learn more about computer science.
• Inspect the code/ processes to learn about how to handle production software well.
• Learning about P2P networks.
• Learning more about software engineering.
• Learning about game theory.
• Learning about economics and human nature.
• Learning how money functions.
• Understand why decentralization matters.
• Recognise the flaws in our current system.
• Meet amazing people who are withstanding the highest hostility possible, to keep freedom alive.
• Learn more about physics/ engineering to make mining more efficient/ utilise it differently.
• Recognize bs even faster

See even if this thing doesnt bring in any profits/ money, the value is infinite for people who use it correctly. This list can for sure grow a lot longer.

Now:

• How can you personally utilise gold without being a goldsmith, if no one accepts it anymore?
• How can you use fiat when no accepts it anymore?

You’re touching the non productive nature of money, without realising this applies to any monetary good, and Bitcoin might not even be bad compared to previous forms of money. The barrier to even understand Bitcoin is high for many people, once you really understand it, you’ll touch so many different fields, because it’s requires this to really get there.

That has nothing to do with utilization, but is just nonsense created in your imagination. If bitcoin can be utilized, then a person that has 1,000,000 BTC, in comparation with a person that has 0.0001 BTC, must be able to get 10,000,000,000 more benefit without selling BTC to someone else. But obviously this is impossible. Because BTC is a number. Mathematical abstraction with zero utilization capacity. It's mind boggling how much stupidity you're are capable to produce only to try to defend undefendable.

Regarding the rest. My bike is non productive. But I can utilize it. My fiat money is non productive. But I can utilize it, as explained in the OP. That's because the first is a resource and the second is a record of a resource (debt). Your bitcoin is neither. It's a unit of a number created in imagination of an anonymous person or a group of people. That's why no one is able to utilize it and everyone is forced to dump it on someone else. Like in all fraudulent investment schemes. Stop defending this scam. You look foolish.

Wow.  You look pretty foolish yourself Snowshow.  Sure it is possible that tadamichi might be wrong about some of his assessments of various ways that bitcoin brings value or potentially brings value to the world or to himself, but you show yourself to completely be lacking in imagination or even abilities to attempt to think through a problem - beyond just repeating what you have repeatedly been saying in regards to the ONLY way that bitcoin has value is because other people have to want it or buy into it. 

You are not completely wrong - but you are pretty damned close to being completely wrong - especially when you ongoingly continue to show that you are not even attempting to grapple with any ideas or facts that do not support your own narrow views regarding what value is from your perspective and the various other ways that there could be value objectively or even from the view of other people besides ur lil selfie.

[tadamichi]

That has nothing to do with utilization,

It has.

If bitcoin can be utilized, then a person that has 1,000,000 BTC, in comparation with a person that has 0.0001 BTC, must be able to get 10,000,000,000 more benefit without selling BTC to someone else.

You’re saying must and have to, even tho this isn’t a rule that’s written anywhere. Anyone should be able to benefit regardless of how much money they have, and they do by using a fair system. But for the sake of the argument, the person with more Bitcoin will also be able to make more transactions if they want to, so they “benefit” more. And in the real world where it’s always possible to use Bitcoin as money, this person with more Bitcoin can also acquire much more resources.

But obviously this is impossible. Because BTC is a number. Mathematical abstraction with zero utilization capacity. It's mind boggling how much stupidity you're are capable to produce only to try to defend undefendable.

So math has no practical applications and utility? So how are we communicating right now?

Regarding the rest. My bike is non productive.

You dont ask questions about a bike on a public forum, on why it can’t fly. Yet youre here questioning why a Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System is mainly used for this purpose, and that it’s a problem and makes it worthless.

Stop defending this scam. You look foolish.

Projection.

[Snowshow]

Wow.  You look pretty foolish yourself Snowshow.  Sure it is possible that tadamichi might be wrong about some of his assessments of various ways that bitcoin brings value or potentially brings value to the world or to himself, but you show yourself to completely be lacking in imagination or even abilities to attempt to think through a problem - beyond just repeating what you have repeatedly been saying in regards to the ONLY way that bitcoin has value is because other people have to want it or buy into it. 

You are not completely wrong - but you are pretty damned close to being completely wrong - especially when you ongoingly continue to show that you are not even attempting to grapple with any ideas or facts that do not support your own narrow views regarding what value is from your perspective and the various other ways that there could be value objectively or even from the view of other people besides ur lil selfie.

That's as stupid as saying: "The only way fraudulent investment schemes have value is if other people are joining in." Well, the whole point is that such schemes have zero value simply because there are zero resources in them for scheme members to access. And for that reason members must wait for new victims to join in. The same is true in Nakamoto scheme. Bitcoin has zero value because there's zero resources in the scheme for bitcoin holders to access. And that's why these holders must wait for new victims to join in and bring the resources.

It's crazy how vehemently you ignore this simple and only relevant fact and just write endless rants about completely irrelevant things.

[JayJuanGee]

Wow.  You look pretty foolish yourself Snowshow.  Sure it is possible that tadamichi might be wrong about some of his assessments of various ways that bitcoin brings value or potentially brings value to the world or to himself, but you show yourself to completely be lacking in imagination or even abilities to attempt to think through a problem - beyond just repeating what you have repeatedly been saying in regards to the ONLY way that bitcoin has value is because other people have to want it or buy into it.  

You are not completely wrong - but you are pretty damned close to being completely wrong - especially when you ongoingly continue to show that you are not even attempting to grapple with any ideas or facts that do not support your own narrow views regarding what value is from your perspective and the various other ways that there could be value objectively or even from the view of other people besides ur lil selfie.

That's as stupid as saying: "The only way fraudulent investment schemes have value is if other people are joining in." Well, the whole point is that such schemes have zero value simply because there are zero resources in them for scheme members to access. And for that reason members must wait for new victims to join in. The same is true in Nakamoto scheme. Bitcoin has zero value because there's zero resources in the scheme for bitcoin holders to access. And that's why these holders must wait for new victims to join in and bring the resources.

It's crazy how vehemently you ignore this simple and only relevant fact and just write endless rants about completely irrelevant things.

Do you even know how to attempt to engage and grapple with actual issues that you seem to be striving to want to discuss (or at least spin from your perspective)?

You seem smart enough, but likely your handlers want you to spin rather than to actually attempt to engage with what makes things valuable such as bitcoin as compared with other assets including a vast array of the ones touched upon in this thread, including but not limited to currencies, pms such as gold, equities, property (personal and real estate - which may also include business property).. there are goods and services too... but then there are also various intangibles that seem even more difficult for you to grasp.. such as privacy, personal/financial security, freedom, autonomy, value preservation and transmission through time.  At least, we did not get too much into shitcoin discussions, even though the various financializations around shitcoins, ICOs, Defi, NFTs and yield products are not completely removed from considerations regarding value and even the concept of scams, deceptions and ponzis (intentional or accidental).

Probably there aren't too many of who really want to be interacting with a disingenuine dweeb like you (ain't nobody got time for that), but I must congratulate you on the length of this thread so far, and sure there are some good ideas in this thread.. so long as peeps do not get too much caught up in reading the meandering ideas in your posts.

[Snowshow]

That has nothing to do with utilization,

It has.

If bitcoin can be utilized, then a person that has 1,000,000 BTC, in comparation with a person that has 0.0001 BTC, must be able to get 10,000,000,000 more benefit without selling BTC to someone else.

You’re saying must and have to, even tho this isn’t a rule that’s written anywhere. Anyone should be able to benefit regardless of how much money they have, and they do by using a fair system. But for the sake of the argument, the person with more Bitcoin will also be able to make more transactions if they want to, so they “benefit” more. And in the real world where it’s always possible to use Bitcoin as money, this person with more Bitcoin can also acquire much more resources.

But obviously this is impossible. Because BTC is a number. Mathematical abstraction with zero utilization capacity. It's mind boggling how much stupidity you're are capable to produce only to try to defend undefendable.

So math has no practical applications and utility? So how are we communicating right now?

Regarding the rest. My bike is non productive.

You dont ask questions about a bike on a public forum, on why it can’t fly. Yet youre here questioning why a Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System is mainly used for this purpose, and that it’s a problem and makes it worthless.

Stop defending this scam. You look foolish.

Projection.

There are no transactions. A transaction is the exchange of resources. There's no money. Money is a resource. There's no Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. Electronic cash or money is representation of an already existing money. So, you're just repeating language manipulation that Nakamoto used in Bitcoin Whitepaper.

[tadamichi]

Sure Snowshow has been attempting to adapt his various arguments too in order to describe the many ways that he believes bitcoin does not have any value and his claims that it is one BIG scam - while at the same time, he ends up contributing to show how vacuous his various arguments because we have actual real word evidence showing that bitcoin goes way beyond the various ways that he says that it does not do anything or that it is just one BIG scam.

Im not sure how to evaluate this situation anymore, we’re reaching psychological phenomena territory. Where someone wants to protect themselves so hard from scams, that they cant see the wood for the trees anymore. And then they actually missed the time where something wasn’t a scam, because they turned blind and unreceptive to any argument/ evidence. Maybe its some form of paranoia. Or maybe this person wants to feel so smart that they could never fall for a scam and then just refuse anything that could potentially scam them, which in turn leads to overprotectiveness and dumb decisions.

So yeah it does seem that Snowshow has been trying to appeal to a variety of concepts (such as money) that he either does not really understand or he is just vaguely and selectively referring to a variety of concepts to make it appear that bitcoin has no value because it does not fit into his frameworks and bitcoin is confusing.. which admittedly bitcoin is confusing when any of us dive into it and attempt to understand all aspects of it.

It is and i wouldnt blame someone for not getting it or finding it confusing, but this is different from someone who thinks hes dealing with cultists, scammers and fools. And refuses to listen to anything or answer anything that he doesnt like. Doesnt realise that it could also be, that he is simply wrong, and millions of people are not here to take anything from him or creating nice sounding stories to fool people.

Wow.  You look pretty foolish yourself Snowshow.  Sure it is possible that tadamichi might be wrong about some of his assessments of various ways that bitcoin brings value or potentially brings value to the world or to himself, but you show yourself to completely be lacking in imagination or even abilities to attempt to think through a problem - beyond just repeating what you have repeatedly been saying in regards to the ONLY way that bitcoin has value is because other people have to want it or buy into it. 

Im not claiming everyone can/ will make use exactly like this, but for someone who is interested in how things work, Bitcoin is like a gold mine of knowledge, where you get introduced to many different topics and can see them live in action. It actually introduced me personally to some topics for the first time and challenges me to try to understand them. Even if it disappeared tomorrow it will still be something people that people can learn from. And to me personally knowledge is priceless, i value it more then if some soulless company that pays me 3% in dividends or whatever.  I wouldnt undervalue the education aspect of Bitcoin, no other investment comes close to this depth in my opinion, thats why i highlighted it so strongly. Just to show whats possible, without even having sold anything.

Bitcoin might be the only money that requires people to actually understand it, to see its real utility, Fiat and Gold didnt have this barrier as much. Maybe people are still thrown into cold water, because theyre not used to this. Central authorities used the shortcut of force, so people will just use what they dont understand. If people use a money that they really have to understand, because it will be adopted voluntarily, it could change a lot.

It's crazy how vehemently you ignore this simple and only relevant fact and just write endless rants about completely irrelevant things.

The funny thing is that there is no scheme, we saw the markets trading Bitcoin forming naturally, late after the invention. In accordance with economic theories about how money comes into existence and gains it value, that is the remarkable thing. Probably nothing, just an investment scam.

There are no transactions.

There are, 3300 just happened last block.

https://mempool.space/

A transaction is the exchange of resources.

Barter is over and were not using cows as money anymore.

There's no money. Money is a resource.

So prove it.

There's no Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System.

So theyre all running and connecting to imagination?

https://bitnodes.io/nodes/live-map/

Electronic cash or money is representation of an already existing money.

I forgot that you wrote the requirements for this.

So, you're just repeating language manipulation that Nakamoto used in Bitcoin Whitepaper.

You attempted to bend concepts/ definitions many times now, you lost the right to make any accusations about this.

[darkv0rt3x]

Bitcoin does NOT have scarcity because it is capped at 21 million.

This is the most hilarious thing ive read from you in a long time. Scarcity means the supply relative to other goods. You cant get more than 21 million Bitcoin no matter how hard you will try, or how many numbers exist. It cant get more scarce than this.

This is like saying that O2 molecules have scarcity because they are put in a container that by that definition can take only limited number of those molecules. In the same way Nakamoto put limited amount of numbers (21 million) in their container and gave them the name bitcoins. That doesn't make these numbers scarce, because numbers are all around us, just like O2 molecules.  

This is like thinking land on earth isnt scarce too, because theres trillions of other planets that have land too.

P.S. You can transcribe value of one resource only to another resource. Because resources provide utility and it's is utilities of the resources what is transcribed.
Bitcoin is a number that you get next to your address, not a resource that provides utility which is why there's nothing to transcribe to.

K i have a simple question for you, what is the task of money? Why didnt we keep doing barter?

There's one problem in you thinking. Bitcoin is a number. Just because numbers in Nakamoto scheme are limited that doesn't make them scarce. Numbers are all around us. So basically, a person or a group of people put numbers in the box, give them the name "bitcoin" and convince you to purchase numbers because bitcoins are limited. Which is as stupid as putting air in the box, giving the air in the box the name "boxair", and convincing people to purchase air because boxair is limited. Hahaha. You people are the participants in the stupidity never seen in human history.

That's one of your problems. Narrow mind and vision. Bitcoin is not just a number. It's way more than that. And the 21 millions are 21 millions. It doesn't matter if there are more numbers.
Once more, define scarce. When you say scarce you have to compare two things. You're not doing such!
Nobody put nothing in anything, that's just your useless opinion. Once more, 0 facts! But keep going, you're giving me sats!

After purchasing bitcoins you have number. Nothing else. No resource to utilize. Just number next to your address. Every idiot can create a scheme that attributes numbers to people's addresses. There's no scarcity in this. You people are literally buying numbers that you can create by yourself for free. Such stupidity was never witnessed in human history.

After I buy Bitcoins, I have the best asset in the world. That's it, no matter how mad you are with it. You're just jeaslous that you probably haven't onbaorded and you're soared as fuck! Well, HFSP. I can exchange my Bitcoins for many things that I assign value to, so, Bitcoin is doing exactly the same thing you say the shiat money is doing! You just don't want to admit!

[darkv0rt3x]

That has nothing to do with utilization,

It has.

If bitcoin can be utilized, then a person that has 1,000,000 BTC, in comparation with a person that has 0.0001 BTC, must be able to get 10,000,000,000 more benefit without selling BTC to someone else.

You’re saying must and have to, even tho this isn’t a rule that’s written anywhere. Anyone should be able to benefit regardless of how much money they have, and they do by using a fair system. But for the sake of the argument, the person with more Bitcoin will also be able to make more transactions if they want to, so they “benefit” more. And in the real world where it’s always possible to use Bitcoin as money, this person with more Bitcoin can also acquire much more resources.

But obviously this is impossible. Because BTC is a number. Mathematical abstraction with zero utilization capacity. It's mind boggling how much stupidity you're are capable to produce only to try to defend undefendable.

So math has no practical applications and utility? So how are we communicating right now?

Regarding the rest. My bike is non productive.

You dont ask questions about a bike on a public forum, on why it can’t fly. Yet youre here questioning why a Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System is mainly used for this purpose, and that it’s a problem and makes it worthless.

Stop defending this scam. You look foolish.

Projection.

There are no transactions. A transaction is the exchange of resources. There's no money. Money is a resource. There's no Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. Electronic cash or money is representation of an already existing money. So, you're just repeating language manipulation that Nakamoto used in Bitcoin Whitepaper.

More opinions of yourself. More shit chat. More rethoric words to say absolutely nothing! There are transactions. When you send Bitcoin to someone, because this someone gave/returned a service/good/ or anything else, you're exchanging Bitcoin for that good/service. That is a transaction. The good exchanged is the resource! P2P means between 2 perople without any intermediaries, which checks. So, once more you make non-sence statements, unfunded, no facts, zero...

[arcmetal]

So, how can the bitcoin holders utilize bitcoins if nobody wants to buy bitcoins?

(Requires actually owning Bitcoin)

• You can still send and receive Bitcoin even if no one buys them.
• You can cryptographically sign messages.
• You can immortalise not censorable messages on the chain(Julian Assange proved he was alive like this)
• Becoming censorship resitant/ have un-confiscatable assets.

(Makes it more likely if you’ve been into Bitcoin)

• Learning about how to apply cryptography in practice.
• Run a node to learn more about computer science.
• Inspect the code/ processes to learn about how to handle production software well.
• Learning about P2P networks.
• Learning more about software engineering.
• Learning about game theory.
• Learning about economics and human nature.
• Learning how money functions.
• Understand why decentralization matters.
• Recognise the flaws in our current system.
• Meet amazing people who are withstanding the highest hostility possible, to keep freedom alive.
• Learn more about physics/ engineering to make mining more efficient/ utilise it differently.
• Recognize bs even faster

See even if this thing doesnt bring in any profits/ money, the value is infinite for people who use it correctly. This list can for sure grow a lot longer.

Now:

• How can you personally utilise gold without being a goldsmith, if no one accepts it anymore?
• How can you use fiat when no accepts it anymore?

You’re touching the non productive nature of money, without realising this applies to any monetary good, and Bitcoin might not even be bad compared to previous forms of money. The barrier to even understand Bitcoin is high for many people, once you really understand it, you’ll touch so many different fields, because it’s requires this to really get there.

I, on various occasions have used bitcoin without someone needing to purchase them from me.  That is, there was no exchange of dollars, or any other foreign currency.

How is this possible you might ask?

tadamichi already lists some good examples.  I would simply be repeating what they have already said.

And, there will be other uses for bitcoin in the future that we are currently unaware of.  ...  Consider the internet in 1990, before they came out with the world wide web (www).  Could you have seen all of the uses for http ?

[arcmetal]

So, how can the bitcoin holders utilize bitcoins if nobody wants to buy bitcoins?

(Requires actually owning Bitcoin)

• You can still send and receive Bitcoin even if no one buys them.
• You can cryptographically sign messages.
• You can immortalise not censorable messages on the chain(Julian Assange proved he was alive like this)
• Becoming censorship resitant/ have un-confiscatable assets.

(Makes it more likely if you’ve been into Bitcoin)

• Learning about how to apply cryptography in practice.
• Run a node to learn more about computer science.
• Inspect the code/ processes to learn about how to handle production software well.
• Learning about P2P networks.
• Learning more about software engineering.
• Learning about game theory.
• Learning about economics and human nature.
• Learning how money functions.
• Understand why decentralization matters.
• Recognise the flaws in our current system.
• Meet amazing people who are withstanding the highest hostility possible, to keep freedom alive.
• Learn more about physics/ engineering to make mining more efficient/ utilise it differently.
• Recognize bs even faster

See even if this thing doesnt bring in any profits/ money, the value is infinite for people who use it correctly. This list can for sure grow a lot longer.

Now:

• How can you personally utilise gold without being a goldsmith, if no one accepts it anymore?
• How can you use fiat when no accepts it anymore?

You’re touching the non productive nature of money, without realising this applies to any monetary good, and Bitcoin might not even be bad compared to previous forms of money. The barrier to even understand Bitcoin is high for many people, once you really understand it, you’ll touch so many different fields, because it’s requires this to really get there.

That has nothing to do with utilization, but is just nonsense created in your imagination. If bitcoin can be utilized, then a person that has 1,000,000 BTC, in comparation with a person that has 0.0001 BTC, must be able to get 10,000,000,000 more benefit without selling BTC to someone else. But obviously this is impossible. Because BTC is a number. Mathematical abstraction with zero utilization capacity. It's mind boggling how much stupidity you're are capable to produce only to try to defend undefendable.

...

"impossible" you say, well guess what, I have done the "impossible".   ... I'll use simpler numbers for the example, but it would still apply to your larger numbers.

A few years ago I bought a piece of hardware for 5 bitcoins.  After the exchange was made, I received the piece of hardware that I wanted, and the builders of that hardware received my 5 bitcoins.

But here is the interesting part that relates to your "impossible" scenario:  ... Someone else, call them "Bob", that wanted ten pieces of the same hardware, that I had just purchased, would have needed to spend 50 bitcoins.

And so here we have the impossible happening: someone named Bob, once their purchase goes through, was able to get ten times the value for their 50 bitcoins than I did with my 5 bitcoins.

This all happened without the exchange of any dollars, or any other foreign currency.

[Snowshow]

Wow.  You look pretty foolish yourself Snowshow.  Sure it is possible that tadamichi might be wrong about some of his assessments of various ways that bitcoin brings value or potentially brings value to the world or to himself, but you show yourself to completely be lacking in imagination or even abilities to attempt to think through a problem - beyond just repeating what you have repeatedly been saying in regards to the ONLY way that bitcoin has value is because other people have to want it or buy into it.  

You are not completely wrong - but you are pretty damned close to being completely wrong - especially when you ongoingly continue to show that you are not even attempting to grapple with any ideas or facts that do not support your own narrow views regarding what value is from your perspective and the various other ways that there could be value objectively or even from the view of other people besides ur lil selfie.

That's as stupid as saying: "The only way fraudulent investment schemes have value is if other people are joining in." Well, the whole point is that such schemes have zero value simply because there are zero resources in them for scheme members to access. And for that reason members must wait for new victims to join in. The same is true in Nakamoto scheme. Bitcoin has zero value because there's zero resources in the scheme for bitcoin holders to access. And that's why these holders must wait for new victims to join in and bring the resources.

It's crazy how vehemently you ignore this simple and only relevant fact and just write endless rants about completely irrelevant things.

Do you even know how to attempt to engage and grapple with actual issues that you seem to be striving to want to discuss (or at least spin from your perspective)?

You seem smart enough, but likely your handlers want you to spin rather than to actually attempt to engage with what makes things valuable such as bitcoin as compared with other assets including a vast array of the ones touched upon in this thread, including but not limited to currencies, pms such as gold, equities, property (personal and real estate - which may also include business property).. there are goods and services too... but then there are also various intangibles that seem even more difficult for you to grasp.. such as privacy, personal/financial security, freedom, autonomy, value preservation and transmission through time.  At least, we did not get too much into shitcoin discussions, even though the various financializations around shitcoins, ICOs, Defi, NFTs and yield products are not completely removed from considerations regarding value and even the concept of scams, deceptions and ponzis (intentional or accidental).

Probably there aren't too many of who really want to be interacting with a disingenuine dweeb like you (ain't nobody got time for that), but I must congratulate you on the length of this thread so far, and sure there are some good ideas in this thread.. so long as peeps do not get too much caught up in reading the meandering ideas in your posts.

You keep ignoring this discussion and just repeat irrelevant issues and bitcoin propaganda. Try for a change actually respond to the issue which this discussion is about. It is explained in the OP and rephrased in my last response:

"...Well, the whole point is that such schemes have zero value simply because there are zero resources in them for scheme members to access. And for that reason members must wait for new victims to join in. The same is true in Nakamoto scheme. Bitcoin has zero value because there's zero resources in the scheme for bitcoin holders to access. And that's why these holders must wait for new victims to join in and bring the resources."

[Snowshow]

[

It's crazy how vehemently you ignore this simple and only relevant fact and just write endless rants about completely irrelevant things.

The funny thing is that there is no scheme, we saw the markets trading Bitcoin forming naturally, late after the invention. In accordance with economic theories about how money comes into existence and gains it value, that is the remarkable thing. Probably nothing, just an investment scam.

There are no transactions.

There are, 3300 just happened last block.

https://mempool.space/

A transaction is the exchange of resources.

Barter is over and were not using cows as money anymore.

There's no money. Money is a resource.

So prove it.

There's no Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System.

So theyre all running and connecting to imagination?

https://bitnodes.io/nodes/live-map/

Electronic cash or money is representation of an already existing money.

I forgot that you wrote the requirements for this.

So, you're just repeating language manipulation that Nakamoto used in Bitcoin Whitepaper.

You attempted to bend concepts/ definitions many times now, you lost the right to make any accusations about this.

I proved everything in my OP. You're just playing semantics. Attaching numbers to addresses is not a transaction but entering Nakamoto scheme.

[Snowshow]

Bitcoin does NOT have scarcity because it is capped at 21 million.

This is the most hilarious thing ive read from you in a long time. Scarcity means the supply relative to other goods. You cant get more than 21 million Bitcoin no matter how hard you will try, or how many numbers exist. It cant get more scarce than this.

This is like saying that O2 molecules have scarcity because they are put in a container that by that definition can take only limited number of those molecules. In the same way Nakamoto put limited amount of numbers (21 million) in their container and gave them the name bitcoins. That doesn't make these numbers scarce, because numbers are all around us, just like O2 molecules.  

This is like thinking land on earth isnt scarce too, because theres trillions of other planets that have land too.

P.S. You can transcribe value of one resource only to another resource. Because resources provide utility and it's is utilities of the resources what is transcribed.
Bitcoin is a number that you get next to your address, not a resource that provides utility which is why there's nothing to transcribe to.

K i have a simple question for you, what is the task of money? Why didnt we keep doing barter?

There's one problem in you thinking. Bitcoin is a number. Just because numbers in Nakamoto scheme are limited that doesn't make them scarce. Numbers are all around us. So basically, a person or a group of people put numbers in the box, give them the name "bitcoin" and convince you to purchase numbers because bitcoins are limited. Which is as stupid as putting air in the box, giving the air in the box the name "boxair", and convincing people to purchase air because boxair is limited. Hahaha. You people are the participants in the stupidity never seen in human history.

That's one of your problems. Narrow mind and vision. Bitcoin is not just a number. It's way more than that. And the 21 millions are 21 millions. It doesn't matter if there are more numbers.
Once more, define scarce. When you say scarce you have to compare two things. You're not doing such!
Nobody put nothing in anything, that's just your useless opinion. Once more, 0 facts! But keep going, you're giving me sats!

After purchasing bitcoins you have number. Nothing else. No resource to utilize. Just number next to your address. Every idiot can create a scheme that attributes numbers to people's addresses. There's no scarcity in this. You people are literally buying numbers that you can create by yourself for free. Such stupidity was never witnessed in human history.

After I buy Bitcoins, I have the best asset in the world. That's it, no matter how mad you are with it. You're just jeaslous that you probably haven't onbaorded and you're soared as fuck! Well, HFSP. I can exchange my Bitcoins for many things that I assign value to, so, Bitcoin is doing exactly the same thing you say the shiat money is doing! You just don't want to admit!

After you buy bitcoin, you have number next to your address. Nothing else. That's reality. Everything else is your imagination.

[Snowshow]

That has nothing to do with utilization,

It has.

If bitcoin can be utilized, then a person that has 1,000,000 BTC, in comparation with a person that has 0.0001 BTC, must be able to get 10,000,000,000 more benefit without selling BTC to someone else.

You’re saying must and have to, even tho this isn’t a rule that’s written anywhere. Anyone should be able to benefit regardless of how much money they have, and they do by using a fair system. But for the sake of the argument, the person with more Bitcoin will also be able to make more transactions if they want to, so they “benefit” more. And in the real world where it’s always possible to use Bitcoin as money, this person with more Bitcoin can also acquire much more resources.

But obviously this is impossible. Because BTC is a number. Mathematical abstraction with zero utilization capacity. It's mind boggling how much stupidity you're are capable to produce only to try to defend undefendable.

So math has no practical applications and utility? So how are we communicating right now?

Regarding the rest. My bike is non productive.

You dont ask questions about a bike on a public forum, on why it can’t fly. Yet youre here questioning why a Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System is mainly used for this purpose, and that it’s a problem and makes it worthless.

Stop defending this scam. You look foolish.

Projection.

There are no transactions. A transaction is the exchange of resources. There's no money. Money is a resource. There's no Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. Electronic cash or money is representation of an already existing money. So, you're just repeating language manipulation that Nakamoto used in Bitcoin Whitepaper.

More opinions of yourself. More shit chat. More rethoric words to say absolutely nothing! There are transactions. When you send Bitcoin to someone, because this someone gave/returned a service/good/ or anything else, you're exchanging Bitcoin for that good/service. That is a transaction. The good exchanged is the resource! P2P means between 2 perople without any intermediaries, which checks. So, once more you make non-sence statements, unfunded, no facts, zero...

It's not an opinion. It's a fact. A transaction is the exchange of resources. Resources provide utility and by comparing the utilities of two resources people know how much of one resource can be given for another or vice versa. Attaching a number to your online address has nothing to do with the transactions, but with joining Nakamoto's fraudulent investment scheme and being numerically labeled in the process.

[JayJuanGee]

Wow.  You look pretty foolish yourself Snowshow.  Sure it is possible that tadamichi might be wrong about some of his assessments of various ways that bitcoin brings value or potentially brings value to the world or to himself, but you show yourself to completely be lacking in imagination or even abilities to attempt to think through a problem - beyond just repeating what you have repeatedly been saying in regards to the ONLY way that bitcoin has value is because other people have to want it or buy into it.  

You are not completely wrong - but you are pretty damned close to being completely wrong - especially when you ongoingly continue to show that you are not even attempting to grapple with any ideas or facts that do not support your own narrow views regarding what value is from your perspective and the various other ways that there could be value objectively or even from the view of other people besides ur lil selfie.

That's as stupid as saying: "The only way fraudulent investment schemes have value is if other people are joining in." Well, the whole point is that such schemes have zero value simply because there are zero resources in them for scheme members to access. And for that reason members must wait for new victims to join in. The same is true in Nakamoto scheme. Bitcoin has zero value because there's zero resources in the scheme for bitcoin holders to access. And that's why these holders must wait for new victims to join in and bring the resources.

It's crazy how vehemently you ignore this simple and only relevant fact and just write endless rants about completely irrelevant things.

Do you even know how to attempt to engage and grapple with actual issues that you seem to be striving to want to discuss (or at least spin from your perspective)?

You seem smart enough, but likely your handlers want you to spin rather than to actually attempt to engage with what makes things valuable such as bitcoin as compared with other assets including a vast array of the ones touched upon in this thread, including but not limited to currencies, pms such as gold, equities, property (personal and real estate - which may also include business property).. there are goods and services too... but then there are also various intangibles that seem even more difficult for you to grasp.. such as privacy, personal/financial security, freedom, autonomy, value preservation and transmission through time.  At least, we did not get too much into shitcoin discussions, even though the various financializations around shitcoins, ICOs, Defi, NFTs and yield products are not completely removed from considerations regarding value and even the concept of scams, deceptions and ponzis (intentional or accidental).

Probably there aren't too many of who really want to be interacting with a disingenuine dweeb like you (ain't nobody got time for that), but I must congratulate you on the length of this thread so far, and sure there are some good ideas in this thread.. so long as peeps do not get too much caught up in reading the meandering ideas in your posts.

You keep ignoring this discussion and just repeat irrelevant issues and bitcoin propaganda.

No I don't.  I post what I believe is responsive and relevant to the discussion.

Try for a change actually respond to the issue which this discussion is about. It is explained in the OP and rephrased in my last response:

No need.  I already did what is supposed to be done from my own perspective.  There is no need for me to try any harder merely because you want to have a different conversation about mostly nonsense.  I have at  least attempted to bring some meaning to the whole matter - and you have shown your self to be a pretty damned bad judge of meaning and relevance..

"...Well, the whole point is that such schemes have zero value simply because there are zero resources in them for scheme members to access. And for that reason members must wait for new victims to join in. The same is true in Nakamoto scheme. Bitcoin has zero value because there's zero resources in the scheme for bitcoin holders to access. And that's why these holders must wait for new victims to join in and bring the resources."

I have already responded to this vacuous point as well, to largely show that it is bullshit... and other members have done so too.. quite repeatedly.

[coinsrider]

I don't think he has scammed the world the idea was revolutionary but it takes time to prove its valuable and reliable and uncertainty times is what make sit happen.