How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[BlackHatCoiner]

Can I now finally get the answer to my question?

The answer to a question such as "Bitcoin is meaningless" requires further discussion. I can't give you any answers until I ensure we understand money in the same way.

Debt are loan contracts secured with collaterals or bank capital and evidenced in the accounting books of the banks.

You're perpetually trying to change the subject. Debt isn't inextricably connected with money. It's created after we've agreed on which currency will be used in our transactions. Two entities, a customer and a merchant can agree to settle their transaction with debt, but without using a fiat currency. For instance, the customer gets their product after they've promised the merchant that they'll deliver them precious rocks. That's also debt.

I repeat, the central bank can create money without any citizen's or commercial bank's permission. That money can be later used to increase debt and be exchanged for goods and services. You're describing what happens afterwards the money is created. The central bank can also be used as a metaphor to the "numbers from a software" you've outlined.

To give you an example: Commercial banks could instead of borrowing from the central bank, gather and decide to setup their own digital currency, which will be used later for loans with collaterals etc.

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30469383

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[Snowshow]

Can I now finally get the answer to my question?

The answer to a question such as "Bitcoin is meaningless" requires further discussion. I can't give you any answers until I ensure we understand money in the same way.

Debt are loan contracts secured with collaterals or bank capital and evidenced in the accounting books of the banks.

You're perpetually trying to change the subject. Debt isn't inextricably connected with money. It's created after we've agreed on which currency will be used in our transactions. Two entities, a customer and a merchant can agree to settle their transaction with debt, but without using a fiat currency. For instance, the customer gets their product after they've promised the merchant that they'll deliver them precious rocks. That's also debt.

I repeat, the central bank can create money without any citizen's or commercial bank's permission. That money can be later used to increase debt and be exchanged for goods and services. You're describing what happens afterwards the money is created. The central bank can also be used as a metaphor to the "numbers from a software" you've outlined.

To give you an example: Commercial banks could instead of borrowing from the central bank, gather and decide to setup their own digital currency, which will be used later for loans with collaterals etc.

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30469383

Can you please answer where's bitcoin? Stop talking about fiat money. Fiat money is debt clearly recorded in the accounting books of central and commercial banks that gets paid every single day to deposit or banknote holders. No debt, no numbers. Numbers simply measure the size of the debt. The same as in bonds for example. There's nothing to discuss here. We are interested in bitcoin. In the blockchain we have address and numbers attached to them. Messaging application called bitcoin wallet states that these numbers measure the size a digital product called BTC. Now, can you finally tell me where's this product? And how it looks like. An address holder with "8" attached to it, vs. the one that has "1" attached, supposedly has eight times bigger quantity of that product. Where's this product? Where's bitcoin?

[BlackHatCoiner]

Now, can you finally tell me where's this product? And how it looks like.

Where's this "dollar" product? How does it look like? 

It turns out that we disagree of what's money. You say that it's solely debt. I agree with this definition:

the fact or quality of being generally accepted or in use.

And Bitcoin fulfills it.

[Snowshow]

Now, can you finally tell me where's this product? And how it looks like.

Where's this "dollar" product? How does it look like?  

It turns out that we disagree of what's money. You say that it's solely debt. I agree with this definition:

the fact or quality of being generally accepted or in use.

And Bitcoin fulfills it.

Money is something that exists. Loans are granted, debt is created, debt is dollars. Therefore, dollars exist.

Bitcoin is something that doesn't exist. It's like flying spaghetti monster, a monster that doesn't exist. But you can name it (FSM), declare by protocol that there are 21 million of flying spaghetti monsters, and then store math symbols into a database by saying that when "1" is stored or attached to someone's address, this person purchased one FSM. Then I would ask the buyer where's FSM, and the buyer would start talking about fiat money. That's what you are doing. Essentially, I am having fun with you. I know that you know bitcoin is non-existent and that Satoshi fooled you all, but you cannot admit it. That's human psychology. Best described in this quote by Mark Twain: "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled".

[BlackHatCoiner]

Money is something that exists. Loans are granted, debt is created, debt is dollars. Therefore, dollars exist.

Bitcoin can also be loaned.

[Snowshow]

Money is something that exists. Loans are granted, debt is created, debt is dollars. Therefore, dollars exist.

Bitcoin can also be loaned.

This is as nonsensical as saying "flying spaghetti monster can also be loaned". Attaching a number to a name and write some letters next to it (BTC or FSM) has nothing to do with loans.

[BlackHatCoiner]

This is as nonsensical as saying "flying spaghetti monster can also be loaned". Attaching a number to a name and write some letters next to it (BTC or FSM) has nothing to do with loans.

But, a flying spaghetti monster isn't easy to transfer neither to verify, let alone to divide it. It doesn't meet the requirements to be money. However, if we found another object or some sort of global ledger where we can sign our dues (even if those numbers don't represent anything), we can use it as currency.

This is Bitcoin. It doesn't represent ANYTHING. It only gives us an idea of who's paid their dues. If lots believe it can work as money, because it meet the requirements to be one, above and beyond, then who're you to claim it doesn't?


Back to the fiat currency: It represents only a title that is recognizable by the state. Do you agree that a person can use a medium of exchange whose usage isn't being forced?

[Snowshow]

This is as nonsensical as saying "flying spaghetti monster can also be loaned". Attaching a number to a name and write some letters next to it (BTC or FSM) has nothing to do with loans.

But, a flying spaghetti monster isn't easy to transfer neither to verify, let alone to divide it. It doesn't meet the requirements to be money. However, if we found another object or some sort of global ledger where we can sign our dues (even if those numbers don't represent anything), we can use it as currency.

This is Bitcoin. It doesn't represent ANYTHING. It only gives us an idea of who's paid their dues. If lots believe it can work as money, because it meet the requirements to be one, above and beyond, then who're you to claim it doesn't?


Back to the fiat currency: It represents only a title that is recognizable by the state. Do you agree that a person can use a medium of exchange whose usage isn't being forced?

But you are not transferring flying spaghetti monster just as you are not transferring bitcoin. Remember, they are non-existent. You are just attaching numbers to addresses. Payment means that you transfer SOMEthing. If there is NOthing transferred then obviously no one is paid their dues. So, there is no money in Satoshi's creation. There are only numbers attached to addresses. Numbers are concepts about quantity of things, and are represented with symbols.  When symbol "5" is used that means there are more things than when symbol "1" is used. So, when a specific symbol is attached to a bitcoin address you have to be able to show the thing which you call bitcoin. If you are not able to show it the thing is non-existent and that what is attached to the address means nothing. In fact, it's fake data.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Payment means that you transfer SOMEthing.

That is correct.

If there is NOthing transferred then obviously no one is paid their dues.

This is also true.

So, there is no money in Satoshi's creation.

That's false, because money is used to settle transactions and Bitcoin is also used to settle transactions. People find it satisfactory to use a public, decentralized and censorship-resistant ledger to deal with. The units can be defined as space in the ledger even if they don't represent something that is tangible.

If it was meaningless, you could cheat those people electronic pockets. It's just a number that doesn't represent anything, as you put it, but you can't change it. The censorship resistance suddenly proves its usefulness.

[DaveF]

Payment means that you transfer SOMEthing.

That is correct.

If there is NOthing transferred then obviously no one is paid their dues.

This is also true.

So, there is no money in Satoshi's creation.

That's false, because money is used to settle transactions and Bitcoin is also used to settle transactions. People find it satisfactory to use a public, decentralized and censorship-resistant ledger to deal with. The units can be defined as space in the ledger even if they don't represent something that is tangible.

If it was meaningless, you could cheat those people electronic pockets. It's just a number that doesn't represent anything, as you put it, but you can't change it. The censorship resistance suddenly proves its usefulness.

@BlackHatCoiner you do know you are arguing with a troll. Just put him on ignore (like all the girls did to him) and he will go away. Sooner or later he will have to leave his moms basement and go to his job of sweeping up the wal-mart parking lot and target his trolling on something else.

-Dave

[BlackHatCoiner]

[...]

I know, but it's a funny troll. It's like a patience test. 

[Snowshow]

Payment means that you transfer SOMEthing.

That is correct.

If there is NOthing transferred then obviously no one is paid their dues.

This is also true.

So, there is no money in Satoshi's creation.

That's false, because money is used to settle transactions and Bitcoin is also used to settle transactions. People find it satisfactory to use a public, decentralized and censorship-resistant ledger to deal with. The units can be defined as space in the ledger even if they don't represent something that is tangible.

If it was meaningless, you could cheat those people electronic pockets. It's just a number that doesn't represent anything, as you put it, but you can't change it. The censorship resistance suddenly proves its usefulness.

For something to be "used" to settle transactions or for whatever purpose, it must exist. Can you comprehend something so simple? Decentralized and censorship-resistant ledger that you're referring to has addresses and numbers attached to them. There's no money or digital product that is in the possession of the address holders. Only numbers are attached to their addresses. Fake data. When you're suggesting that this data quantifies a digital product called "bitcoin" that's a lie. Neither you nor anyone else is able to show a digital product called bitcoin. Applications are digital. Sounds, pictures, videos, animations. There are many digital products. And people are able to show them when they claim these products exist. You see how simple it is? You, on the other hand, are claiming that bitcoin exists and that it's digital and that it has many wonderful features, but you are not able to show it. Instead, you are playing semantics. But I have no problem with that. It's pretty funny.

[BlackHatCoiner]

For something to be "used" to settle transactions or for whatever purpose, it must exist.

The public ledger exists. The numbers of the public ledger indicate the space of it.

There's no money or digital product that is in the possession of the address holders.

That's down to the individuals who'll agree to use it to transact with. Not to you.

Applications are digital. Sounds, pictures, videos, animations.

A blind person can't see them. A deaf can't listen them. Don't they exist?

You, on the other hand, are claiming that bitcoin exists and that it's digital and that it has many wonderful features, but you are not able to show it.

Here they are: https://bitcoin.it/

[Snowshow]

For something to be "used" to settle transactions or for whatever purpose, it must exist.

The public ledger exists. The numbers of the public ledger indicate the space of it.

There's no money or digital product that is in the possession of the address holders.

That's down to the individuals who'll agree to use it to transact with. Not to you.

Applications are digital. Sounds, pictures, videos, animations.

A blind person can't see them. A deaf can't listen them. Don't they exist?

You, on the other hand, are claiming that bitcoin exists and that it's digital and that it has many wonderful features, but you are not able to show it.

Here they are: https://bitcoin.it/

All that the individuals can agree to is for numbers to be attached to their address. Transactions, on the other hand, can only be performed with existing things. Such as debt, equity, commodity, etc.

https://bitcoin.it/ is a website with some text on it. There are no bitcoins there.

[BlackHatCoiner]

All that the individuals can agree to is for numbers to be attached to their address. Transactions, on the other hand, can only be performed with existing things. Such as debt, equity, commodity, etc.

Focus on what I write to you and don't repeat the same bullshit all over again.

https://bitcoin.it/ is a website with some text on it. There are no bitcoins there.

We don't communicate. These are the "wonderful features" you asked for.

[dezoel]

Maybe that’s your own understanding  of what Bitcoin is all about. But I don’t really agree with you on that because of the part where you said that people receive Bitcoin without receiving ownership of the property (asset). Anyone who receives Bitcoin receives full ownership of the Bitcoin that they have received in their wallet. As long as you have the private keys to that wallet then the bitcoins that are stored there belongs to you.

The only time I would say that you don’t have ownership of the wallet is when you are making use of custodial wallets whereby you wouldn’t have control over your private keys and the only thing you do is to just give order to execute transactions and nothing more.

[FatFork]

Yes, it's this guy called "Antithesis" who dislikes that we're dealing with a different kind of currency they disapprove of.
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Yea, I'm sure this is the same guy. This genius keeps popping up every now and then with his 'Bitcoin has no value' FUD.
He is probably Croatian (or at least Croatian-speaking), but since we've doxed his ass, he no longer has the balls to post in a Croatian local section. The guy works for a government financial agency, so he has some background in economics, but when it comes to anything else he is as thick as a plank.

He's been spreading FUD and trolling here for years, and he starts over every time with a fresh new account.

Known alt accounts:
fxsurfer [BANNED]
antikvark
Antithesis

So, don't feed the troll!  

[Snowshow]

All that the individuals can agree to is for numbers to be attached to their address. Transactions, on the other hand, can only be performed with existing things. Such as debt, equity, commodity, etc.

Focus on what I write to you and don't repeat the same bullshit all over again.

https://bitcoin.it/ is a website with some text on it. There are no bitcoins there.

We don't communicate. These are the "wonderful features" you asked for.

Human language is rich and humans have an enormous capacity for imaginary creation. So they can say and write all sorts of things that don't corespondent to reality and facts. They can fantasize about bitcoin, talk about it, dream about its wonderful features. But in reality all that exist are address and numbers attached to them. Nothing else. And that's not bullshit. That's the way things actually are. It's called reality. For those who deny it over and over again, it is necessary to repeat it over and over again.

Maybe that’s your own understanding  of what Bitcoin is all about. But I don’t really agree with you on that because of the part where you said that people receive Bitcoin without receiving ownership of the property (asset). Anyone who receives Bitcoin receives full ownership of the Bitcoin that they have received in their wallet. As long as you have the private keys to that wallet then the bitcoins that are stored there belongs to you.

The only time I would say that you don’t have ownership of the wallet is when you are making use of custodial wallets whereby you wouldn’t have control over your private keys and the only thing you do is to just give order to execute transactions and nothing more.

I was wrong. People don't receive bitcoin. Bitcoin doesn't exist. Only numbers are attached to people's addresses. Also they don't receive that numbers, but just watch them after they are attached. I have unfortunately feel for the false narrative and think bitcoin is something that exists. In this topic, thanks to you guys, I've realized there's no such thing as bitcoin

Yes, it's this guy called "Antithesis" who dislikes that we're dealing with a different kind of currency they disapprove of.
<cut>

Yea, I'm sure this is the same guy. This genius keeps popping up every now and then with his 'Bitcoin has no value' FUD.
He is probably Croatian (or at least Croatian-speaking), but since we've doxed his ass, he no longer has the balls to post in a Croatian local section. The guy works for a government financial agency, so he has some background in economics, but when it comes to anything else he is as thick as a plank.

He's been spreading FUD and trolling here for years, and he starts over every time with a fresh new account.

Known alt accounts:
fxsurfer [BANNED]
antikvark
Antithesis

So, don't feed the troll!  

Like I have said. Human capacity for imaginary creation is enormous. So, some of you are obsessed with some guy that is been trolling in this forum. And now I am that guy because I have stated some facts in this topic. Hahaha. What else are you gonna come up with?

[FatFork]

Like I have said. Human capacity for imaginary creation is enormous. So, some of you are obsessed with some guy that is been trolling in this forum. And now I am that guy because I have stated some facts in this topic. Hahaha. What else are you gonna come up with?

So you're saying you're not that guy? You're not from Croatia (or don't speak Croatian)?

[BlackHatCoiner]

They can fantasize about bitcoin, talk about it, dream about its wonderful features. But in reality all that exist are address and numbers attached to them. Nothing else.

It needs creativity from your part. You, specifically, lack in it.

So, some of you are obsessed with some guy that is been trolling in this forum.

No, you're indeed that guy and I can understand this from your writing style. For example, you use the same words/phrases they used ("Sherlock", "non-existent" etc.), you quote posts exactly as they did. You're also the only person who keeps opening this kind of topics.

Do you ever have the feeling that you're the smartest person in the room? Like, so smart no one understands you?