How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[tadamichi]

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/utilization

Utilization -  the act of using something in an effective way.

So, instead of answering how the guy can use bitcoins in an effective way for his benefit (without dumping them to someone else) you decided to twist the meaning of the word "utility" and continue to spread the usual bitcoin propaganda. You really are pathetic.

This just shows how bad you are at checking your own sources. Scroll down a little.

utilization
noun [ U ]
US/ˌju·t̬əl·əˈzeɪ·ʃən/
 
the use of something

You just attempted to twist meanings and make them exclusive to your narrative, that you need a dictionary to realise that utilization means also just using something is the funny thing. See you just did what youre accusing others of again.

No, my shit coins or fiat currencies are numbers that represent the quantity of debt created in the banking system that I own.

But they barely hold any reserves, only 1% of your actual money in the bank is actually there, this is the current requirement, the rest is just imagination that was created out of thin air, so if youre holding 500€ on the bank for example, only 5€ are actually there. And if you happen to be wealthy only 100.000€ of the account are insured, so after this amount 0€ actually exist in your account, and in a case of emergency its not even clear if they can pay out any insurance, this is just to make it seem like theres any security, so people dont get the idea to withdraw their money.

Until January 2012, banks had to hold a minimum of 2% of certain liabilities, mainly customers’ deposits, at their national central bank. Since then, this ratio has been lowered to 1%. The total reserve requirements for euro area banks stand at around 113 billion euro (beginning of 2016).

And this effects compounds with the amount of people using them, they will just use your 495€ to give loans to other people, and when all of you want to withdraw their money at similar times, it wont be possible, cuz this much was never on there in the first place.

Now tell me a bigger ponzi than this. Youre putting money into something and 99% of it will just be used, to give non existent money to people, do you get now where inflation is coming from? When each time you deposit something 99% of it will be misused, and this only works, because enough people are not withdrawing their money and leaving it on the bank. Once too many people withdraw their own money the bank collapses.

And this doesnt include when the central bank prints money yet.

Which is clearly evidenced in the balance sheets of the banks where the deposits are recorded as banks liabilities. Banknotes are of course redeemable for the deposits.

Like i highlighted above there are just nice sounding stories you just created, something you accuse Bitcoiners of.

[1714674495]

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[1714674495]

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[Snowshow]

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/utilization

Utilization -  the act of using something in an effective way.

So, instead of answering how the guy can use bitcoins in an effective way for his benefit (without dumping them to someone else) you decided to twist the meaning of the word "utility" and continue to spread the usual bitcoin propaganda. You really are pathetic.

This just shows how bad you are at checking your own sources. Scroll down a little.

utilization
noun [ U ]
US/ˌju·t̬əl·əˈzeɪ·ʃən/
 
the use of something

You just attempted to twist meanings and make them exclusive to your narrative, that you need a dictionary to realise that utilization means also just using something is the funny thing. See you just did what youre accusing others of again.

No, my shit coins or fiat currencies are numbers that represent the quantity of debt created in the banking system that I own.

But they barely hold any reserves, only 1% of your actual money in the bank is actually there, this is the current requirement, the rest is just imagination that was created out of thin air, so if youre holding 500€ on the bank for example, only 5€ are actually there. And if you happen to be wealthy only 100.000€ of the account are insured, so after this amount 0€ actually exist in your account, and in a case of emergency its not even clear if they can pay out any insurance, this is just to make it seem like theres any security, so people dont get the idea to withdraw their money.

Until January 2012, banks had to hold a minimum of 2% of certain liabilities, mainly customers’ deposits, at their national central bank. Since then, this ratio has been lowered to 1%. The total reserve requirements for euro area banks stand at around 113 billion euro (beginning of 2016).

And this effects compounds with the amount of people using them, they will just use your 495€ to give loans to other people, and when all of you want to withdraw their money at similar times, it wont be possible, cuz this much was never on there in the first place.

Now tell me a bigger ponzi than this. Youre putting money into something and 99% of it will just be used, to give non existent money to people, do you get now where inflation is coming from? When each time you deposit something 99% of it will be misused, and this only works, because enough people are not withdrawing their money and leaving it on the bank. Once too many people withdraw their own money the bank collapses.

And this doesnt include when the central bank prints money yet.

Which is clearly evidenced in the balance sheets of the banks where the deposits are recorded as banks liabilities. Banknotes are of course redeemable for the deposits.

Like i highlighted above there are just nice sounding stories you just created, something you accuse Bitcoiners of.

By that logic you can sent "0.0001" 200,000 times by using Viber or other messaging applications. This would mean "using the number 2" by splitting it into 200,000 parts. Just like that guy can do in Nakamoto scheme. But... sending numbers is completely free. Why would anyone pay $40,000 or give their car just to be able to do something they are able to do free of charge?

Do you now understand how stupid your defense of bitcoin is?

Regarding the rest. You're pretty uneducated about how the banking system operates. You're just repeating nonsense conspiracy theories. But regardless, the only important point for this discussion is that fiat currencies are numbers that represent the quantity of debt created in the banking system. Debt that is paid to dollar holders at every loan repayment and that in that way provides utility to people. Everything else is completely irrelevant. So here I am not going to educate you about the banking system. But even if I would try to do something like that, this would be a complete waste of time. You're unable to even comprehend the concept of utility in economics, let alone the operation of the banking system.

[DooMAD]

No, my shit coins or fiat currencies are numbers that represent the quantity of debt created in the banking system that I own. Which is clearly evidenced in the balance sheets of the banks where the deposits are recorded as banks liabilities.

I don't know about whichever country you might happen to live in, but in the UK, there's something called the FSCS.  Financial Services Compensation Scheme.  It means an agency set up by the government "protect" your wealth up to a certain threshold if your bank manages to go bankrupt.  If your money were truly guaranteed by the debt which banks create when they lend, as you keep claiming, this service would not need to exist.  The reason it needs to exist is because the money in your bank account is not guaranteed by anything.  When banks fail, account holders are considered unsecured creditors.  And if you have an amount of money in the bank above the threshold set by the FSCS when your bank fails, anything above that threshold is forfeit completely.  Why do you think people invest in things like property or works of art?  Smart people don't leave vast fortunes in the bank where they could be lost.  They buy expensive shit and then take out insurance on said expensive shit to cover its full value. 

Banks can become insolvent.  You can lose money beyond any figure your government are prepared to protect.  Conversely, Bitcoin cannot become insolvent.  This is the advantage of not being a debt-based system.  In turn, this derives a small part of Bitcoin's value proposition.  But no doubt you'll engage in yet more mental gymnastics to try and avoid conceding that point.

[Snowshow]

No, my shit coins or fiat currencies are numbers that represent the quantity of debt created in the banking system that I own. Which is clearly evidenced in the balance sheets of the banks where the deposits are recorded as banks liabilities.

I don't know about whichever country you might happen to live in, but in the UK, there's something called the FSCS.  Financial Services Compensation Scheme.  It means an agency set up by the government "protect" your wealth up to a certain threshold if your bank manages to go bankrupt.  If your money were truly guaranteed by the debt which banks create when they lend, as you keep claiming, this service would not need to exist.  The reason it needs to exist is because the money in your bank account is not guaranteed by anything.  When banks fail, account holders are considered unsecured creditors.  And if you have an amount of money in the bank above the threshold set by the FSCS when your bank fails, anything above that threshold is forfeit completely.  Why do you think people invest in things like property or works of art?  Smart people don't leave vast fortunes in the bank where they could be lost.  They buy expensive shit and then take out insurance on said expensive shit to cover its full value.  

Banks can become insolvent.  You can lose money beyond any figure your government are prepared to protect.  Conversely, Bitcoin cannot become insolvent.  This is the advantage of not being a debt-based system.  In turn, this derives a small part of Bitcoin's value proposition.  But no doubt you'll engage in yet more mental gymnastics to try and avoid conceding that point.

Most governmental services and agencies are useless. They exist for themselves. When a bank goes bankrupt that effects equity and the owners of the banks. But the borrowers are still obligated to repay their loans. And it is those repayments what enable fiat currency holders to get resources (labour, services and products) from the borrowers. In that way, debt in which they invested by receiving fiat currencies, is paid to them.

Bitcoin is a number. It has nothing to do with anything that's going on in the banking system.

[DooMAD]

When a bank goes bankrupt that effects equity and the owners of the banks. But the borrowers are still obligated to repay their loans. And it is those repayments what enable fiat currency holders to get resources (labour, services and products) from the borrowers. In that way, debt in which they invested by receiving fiat currencies, is paid to them.

Unsecured creditors are not the first in line to have their funds recovered when banks fail.  Savers often lose out.  This is why the FSCS exists.  Stop pretending that it's a magical world of make believe where bank balances are somehow left intact when the company that printed them from thin air becomes insolvent.

Bitcoin is a number. It has nothing to do with anything that's going on in the banking system.

Bitcoin is a physical network, a protocol and a blockchain.  It is all the better for not being part of an antiquated and corrupt banking system where private companies have a licence to print money from nothing and only hold 1% of the funds as fractional reserve.  

We've built a better system which does not require placing trust in private companies who can become insolvent and wipe out any money you may have deposited.  Money which, once you deposit it, no longer belongs to you in the eyes of the law.  Anything you deposit becomes the property of the bank.  The balance you think you hold is nothing more than an IOU.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

So, instead of acknowledging that bitcoin is not a resource that provides utility but just a numeric label given to those that join Nakamoto scheme, you continue to write endless rants about the things irrelevant to this topic. That's called trolling.

It's called providing meaning, substance and context to a Snowshow world that would be vacuous if it were to not have such context.

You should be thanking me for my efforts, rather than whining about such efforts, and for sure, since we are in a public thread, people deserve to receive decent, meaningful and actionable information rather than listening to your negative nancy largely uninformed baloney that largely tells them to stay on zero when it comes to their bitcoin allocation of any investment portfolio that they might have... Actually if they listen to you, they might not even have any investment portfolio if they cannot even identify and/or figure out what is valuable.. or at least to have some value allocated towards investing into  BTC.. 1% to 25% to start seems a good start.

You are likely to be whining and kicking ur lil selfie even more in 10 years and thereafter if you don't get ur lil selfie some of dee cornz at these likely to be low, low prices.

This is not financial nor psychological advice; you are responsible for your own balancing decisions in these regards... and if you believe that it is best for you to stay at or close to zero.. then you are the one in the best position to figure out those kinds of balances.

[edited out]

Do you now understand how stupid your defense of bitcoin is?

You seem to be the one trying to defend the fiat system, Snowshow.  Maybe you are worried that value is going to continue to gravitate into BTC?  More and more people seem to be figuring out that value continues to gravitate into BTC...

Regarding the rest. You're pretty uneducated about how the banking system operates. You're just repeating nonsense conspiracy theories. But regardless, the only important point for this discussion is that fiat currencies are numbers that represent the quantity of debt created in the banking system. Debt that is paid to dollar holders at every loan repayment and that in that way provides utility to people. Everything else is completely irrelevant. So here I am not going to educate you about the banking system. But even if I would try to do something like that, this would be a complete waste of time. You're unable to even comprehend the concept of utility in economics, let alone the operation of the banking system.

I wonder how much any of us needs to know very many of these details in order to recognize and appreciate there is value in having sound money, and surely bitcoin seems to be the soundest of money currently in existence.  

Sure there are a variety of ways that money is abstracted away, and people have difficulties understanding the so many ways that money is created and even how it gets value and what it is backed by.  Sure some folks still believe that the dollar is backed by gold, and surely if it is not backed by gold then it is backed by some kind of productivity of the overall economy and other national assets, and even the military prowess - but then in many of these regards, fiat money, such as the dollar, ends up having tendencies to be so lacking in transparency, that people (normies and even more sophisticated peeps) frequently are not going to be able to understand and/or recognize how extensively their purchasing power is being errored away in terms of the various ways that money supply is increased - like getting taxed and not realizing that they were taxed, but then seeing decreased purchasing power and other ways that supply chain systems get messed up when there are various kinds of interventions and difficulties to identify who might be to blame or how to fix and at the same time having logical conclusions that there needs to be incentives built in to systems to inspire people to work or products to be made or even commodities to be made available to be put into a consumable state.

Bitcoin is not completely detached from the various ways that systems are screwed up, and surely we are going to continue to have parallel value systems that are in place and evolving in the coming years, and if you place all of your value into the various fiat systems you may well be able to survive and even possibly thrive - but surely many of us bitcoiners have our doubts  in regards to keeping all of our value in various fiat related systems, and surely there are differing opinions regarding how much allocation would be prudent and reasonable to keep in bitcoin, and so allocation levels are likely to differ depending upon if any of us have been in bitcoin for a long time versus just getting started into bitcoin..

I think that it is reasonably justifiable to have anywhere between 1% to 25% allocation into bitcoin if you are just getting started, but it can take a while to figure out a strategy regarding how to accumulate BTC and how to change allocations if you have investments in other assets/currencies.

For someone like you Snowshow, you are perhaps a lost cause, but for anyone else who might have a lot of reservations about bitcoin, the decision might well be prudent to at least get the fuck off of zero, and do not go down some kind of a Snowshow failure/refusal to prepare path.  So even with something on the lower end of the range - of something like a 1% allocation into bitcoin could take a bit of time to get systems set up and then to start to buy BTC.

[edited out]

Bitcoin is a number. It has nothing to do with anything that's going on in the banking system.

If you had not noticed, bitcoin has been in the world for more than 13.5 years, and over the years, various systems have been built around bitcoin to facilitate bitcoin being more and more user-friendly in terms of holding it and/or transacting with it.   Furthermore there have been various financial instruments built around bitcoin, and some of these are not really bitcoin, but people (and institutions) make bets on bitcoin, and whether good or bad, the existence of various kinds of financial instruments are part of our modern world.  They are likely to continue to be built on and around bitcoin.

For sure, Bitcoin can be held by individuals and transacted directly or held by third parties, so surely there are ways that bitcoin systems can overlap with various kinds of traditional financial systems including banks, and there even seem to be various kinds of financialization instruments and products built around bitcoin that are not exactly bitcoin, but may well be used to store and/or transact with bitcoin, and surely easy lines cannot be drawn - even though many folks in bitcoin are conceptualizing, building and even wanting to incentivize NOT to be using traditional financial instrument systems with bitcoin in order to lessen and possibly avoid some of the paperization, fractional reserve and rehypothication that can occur through those various kinds of betting systems in which if push comes to shove, then we find out that some of those kinds of institutions (3rd parties) may well not have the bitcoins that they claim to have.  ..

Even though if bitcoin transactions and even storage takes place on the bitcoin chain, there are bitcoin systems that would allow to verify that HOLDers using on chain systems have the coins that they claim, but those verification systems will not work so well when the bitcoin go into side-systems that may well not require coins to be verified... and then the supposed bitcoin, get doubled, tripled or whatever other shenanigans are being played when they are not really on-chain and verified bitcoin.

Surely the bitcoin systems is much more powerful on a monetary sovereignty, transparency, verifiability and sound money level than those various traditional financial systems, but if bitcoin ends up being used in those side systems (that are not verified on the chain and/or somehow pegged to the chain so that more bitcoin cannot be counted), then it would not be easy to proclaim that those side systems are dealing with "real bitcoin," and if the side-system ends up failing because it does not have sufficient/adequate bitcoin to cover all liabilities, then people sometimes might get confused regarding if they are dealing with bitcoin or some fake bitcoin and not realize whether they had gotten fucked by a third party or if they maybe should not have put their bitcoin in such a black (and potentially corrupt/dishonest) box.

Edited: I see DooMAD made similar (and maybe even better?) points in his further response (while I was drafting this one).

[tadamichi]

By that logic you can sent "0.0001" 200,000 times by using Viber or other messaging applications. This would mean "using the number 2" by splitting it into 200,000 parts. Just like that guy can do in Nakamoto scheme. But... sending numbers is completely free. Why would anyone pay $40,000 or give their car just to be able to do something they are able to do free of charge?

What is printed on a bill? What is being sent when you do a wire transfer? Camels? Why would anyone do wire transfers if they can send numbers on viber or other chat apps? Here i'll send you a 2000 now, lets hope it magically reaches your bank account number. Bitcoin is a payment system, not a random number, how will you design a payment system without numbers? How does what youre saying about numbers have any relevance? Or because Bitcoin isnt mandated by the state its equivalent to sending nothing, is that what you wanna suggest here?

Why would anyone pay $40,000 or give their car just to be able to do something they are able to do free of charge?

The reason is simple, with 40,000$ in Bitcoin you will be able to acquire resources, with a 40,000 on viber you wont be. And this 40,000$ is put in a system with the properties we mentioned many times now(censorship resistance, limited supply, not confiscatable etc). While the fiat system has worse qualities, to just store these 40,000$ in a bank account, with risks we also already mentioned.

Regarding the rest. You're pretty uneducated about how the banking system operates. You're just repeating nonsense conspiracy theories.

If there was something to correct with what I’ve said, you would’ve done so. I dumbed it down on purpose. Is fractional reserve banking a conspiracy theory? And the minimum reserve requirement the ecb set, too?

Debt that is paid to dollar holders at every loan repayment and that in that way provides utility to people.

This isnt relevant to people who deposit their money into a bank. What if there was negative interest rates and youre loosing money for depositing it, how is it still beneficial? Because this is already happening where im from.

Everything else is completely irrelevant. So here I am not going to educate you about the banking system. But even if I would try to do something like that, this would be a complete waste of time. You're unable to even comprehend the concept of utility in economics, let alone the operation of the banking system.

There is utility in the banking system, but the abuse got out of hand, that is the point. It could work perfectly, if trust wouldnt be abused again and again. In essence what i said was, that deposits arent fully covered/ insured anymore, ofc its more complicated than my previous post made it seem. In a bank run only the first few people will be able to withdraw their money fully, because its not fully backed. When a bank goes bankrupt the borrowers are still ofc obligated to repay, but there is a systemic risk now for any big bank going bankrupt, this would have snowball effects. Ever heard of the term too big to fail?

[JayJuanGee]

By that logic you can sent "0.0001" 200,000 times by using Viber or other messaging applications. This would mean "using the number 2" by splitting it into 200,000 parts. Just like that guy can do in Nakamoto scheme. But... sending numbers is completely free. Why would anyone pay $40,000 or give their car just to be able to do something they are able to do free of charge?

What is printed on a bill? What is being sent when you do a wire transfer? Camels? Why would anyone do wire transfers if they can send numbers on viber or other chat apps? Here i'll send you a 2000 now, lets hope it magically reaches your bank account number. Bitcoin is a payment system, not a random number, how will you design a payment system without numbers? How does what youre saying about numbers have any relevance? Or because Bitcoin isnt mandated by the state its equivalent to sending nothing, is that what you wanna suggest here?

Why would anyone pay $40,000 or give their car just to be able to do something they are able to do free of charge?

The reason is simple, with 40,000$ in Bitcoin you will be able to acquire resources, with a 40,000 on viber you wont be. And this 40,000$ is put in a system with the properties we mentioned many times now(censorship resistance, limited supply, not confiscatable etc). While the fiat system has worse qualities, to just store these 40,000$ in a bank account, with risks we also already mentioned.

That's an interesting way of framing the matter, tadamichi...

You may have inspired some people to begin to feel like sending a few thousand numbers to each of our friends and family members.  

And, sure I do not have a lot of friends, but if I just start to go through my phone contacts and expand my definition of family and friends, if I just keep up the practice and continue to expand the people on my send list and maybe even give bonuses numbers to some of the special ones, after a while I might be able to get up to sending millions of numbers, just by sending a few thousand at a time.  

I am quite sure that the recipients of my numbers will appreciate my good deed, and they might even be able to forward what numbers I had sent to them in order that other people (unknown to me) might be able to benefit from my having had started out the process of sending numbers to various individuals in my group.

[tadamichi]

That's an interesting way of framing the matter, tadamichi...

You may have inspired some people to begin to feel like sending a few thousand numbers to each of our friends and family members.  

And, sure I do not have a lot of friends, but if I just start to go through my phone contacts and expand my definition of family and friends, if I just keep up the practice and continue to expand the people on my send list and maybe even give bonuses numbers to some of the special ones, after a while I might be able to get up to sending millions of numbers, just by sending a few thousand at a time.  

I am quite sure that the recipients of my numbers will appreciate my good deed, and they might even be able to forward what numbers I had sent to them in order that other people (unknown to me) might be able to benefit from my having had started out the process of sending numbers to various individuals in my group.

Did we just discover a financial revolution? And snowshow just tried to get us there all this time? See JJG i dont know with what amount your personal f*** you status is reached, but ill just send you 1.000.000.000 to make sure. We broke the system, Snowshow just couldnt understand how we didnt realise this earlier and were still bothering with Bitcoin. Viber is the revolution.

[JayJuanGee]

That's an interesting way of framing the matter, tadamichi...

You may have inspired some people to begin to feel like sending a few thousand numbers to each of our friends and family members.  

And, sure I do not have a lot of friends, but if I just start to go through my phone contacts and expand my definition of family and friends, if I just keep up the practice and continue to expand the people on my send list and maybe even give bonuses numbers to some of the special ones, after a while I might be able to get up to sending millions of numbers, just by sending a few thousand at a time.  

I am quite sure that the recipients of my numbers will appreciate my good deed, and they might even be able to forward what numbers I had sent to them in order that other people (unknown to me) might be able to benefit from my having had started out the process of sending numbers to various individuals in my group.

Did we just discover a financial revolution? And snowshow just tried to get us there all this time? See JJG i dont know with what amount your personal f*** you status is reached, but ill just send you 1.000.000.000 to make sure. We broke the system, Snowshow just couldnt understand how we didnt realise this earlier and were still bothering with Bitcoin. Viber is the revolution.

I feel kind of bad just making up numbers, but it is empowering at the same time.

It seems that if I were to run out of numbers under the system that you and Snowshow have highlighted for me (team Snowshow/tadamichi  - sorry I had to put Snowshow's name first - he seems to be the brains behind this operation), then I can just make up new numbers.. so I am not 100% sure if it would make a difference if you send me another billion numbers of not. I suppose you could send them and then I will see if it helps to bring me more material value in the world... like the important things:  hookers, lambos and blow. 

Once you send me the numbers (the billion or whatever it is that you decide to send me), then I will try to see if I can use the services of the first one on my list of consumption goods.. Maybe I could send something like 10k numbers to her and see if I can get her to come over for the day.. and we will spend the day together shopping for a lambo  (while doing blow of course), and I will still have plenty left from the billion of numbers that you sent me, no?   

I know a lambo will probably cost more numbers.  Maybe they would want like a million numbers or more just for a lambo. Have you and Snowshow figured out how many numbers I am going to need to get these things?

With Bitcoin, at our current market rate of $21k-ish, it's going to cost me something like 25 bitcoin for a decently nice lambo (let's say with a market price of $500k-ish)... Of course, I can consider that I may well have been able to get those 25 BTC for anywhere between $250 to $1k per bitcoin between 2014 and early 2017.  I am not saying how many bitcoin that I have, but I am saying that something like 25 bitcoin could have been purchased fairly easily for between about $6,250 and $25k between 2014 and early 2017. 

Of course, Lambos are not stable in their prices either... so they have likely gone up in price, but if we hold the Lambo price at $500k, I would have only needed 7.25 or so bitcoin to buy a $500k lambo in November 2021... so yeah, bitcoin value (market price) fluctuates with the passage of time too, and how much I can buy with one bitcoin now as compared to what I could buy with it last year or even 5 years ago.. and surely we are going to have fluctuation of what can be bought with bitcoin as compared with fiat into the future, too.

[Dunamisx]

No, my shit coins or fiat currencies are numbers that represent the quantity of debt created in the banking system that I own. Which is clearly evidenced in the balance sheets of the banks where the deposits are recorded as banks liabilities. Banknotes are of course redeemable for the deposits. Bitcoin doesn't represent the quantity of debt. Nobody ows you anything when you hold it. So, bitcoin is indeed just a worthless numeric label. That's why you're forced to find new victims to dump that shit on them. There's zero similarly between fiat and bitcoin.

It feels bad the the whole concept of a thing is totally misunderstood, yet OP keep repeating jagons of which I don't know if he's been paid to disrupt the calm or its a personal error from self and overknow which amount to knowing nothing, if you need to be clear about this, google what bitcoin is online and have a look at the list and number of those that are investing on it who were people of high reputation and consider the rate of how its been used on a daily transaction and payments, i still don't know what you lack about bitcoin being a digital currency, Satoshi came up with this for everyone to benefit and not for his personal interest, if I were you, all i will do is to just give it a try and see if all been said about bitcoin is real or not.

[tadamichi]

I feel kind of bad just making up numbers, but it is empowering at the same time.

It seems that if I were to run out of numbers under the system that you and Snowshow have highlighted for me (team Snowshow/tadamichi  - sorry I had to put Snowshow's name first - he seems to be the brains behind this operation), then I can just make up new numbers.. so I am not 100% sure if it would make a difference if you send me another billion numbers of not. I suppose you could send them and then I will see if it helps to bring me more material value in the world... like the important things:  hookers, lambos and blow. 

Its a fair point, if anyone could just make up numbers, there might be too many. So the solution would be that only me and Snowshow can create numbers on Viber, and we will send them to a few contacts who can distribute them for us. To verify theyre using only the allowed amount of numbers, we will make sure that 1% of their numbers will stay in reserves with us, this is enough to make sure the system wont collapse. And then new numbers can also be created trough loans given by our contacts, people have to repay that debt every month by sending enough numbers back to our contacts. That is enough to provide utility to people. With these numbers you will be able to get hookers, lambos and blow in return, as these are the most important resources. Anyone that questions that this system is not legit, is a cultist promoting a different, worthless, numeric dumping scheme, as only our solution can provide utility and has resources. Then you can compare the degree of utility of our resources(hookers, lambos, blow) with other resources, and then know for how much to exchange it for. So our system is backed by both debt and our reserve resources. It just works, when you follow Snowshow economics 101, nothing could go wrong here, as we just followed what actually matters for money.

Once you send me the numbers (the billion or whatever it is that you decide to send me), then I will try to see if I can use the services of the first one on my list of consumption goods.. Maybe I could send something like 10k numbers to her and see if I can get her to come over for the day.. and we will spend the day together shopping for a lambo  (while doing blow of course), and I will still have plenty left from the billion of numbers that you sent me, no?   

I know a lambo will probably cost more numbers.  Maybe they would want like a million numbers or more just for a lambo. Have you and Snowshow figured out how many numbers I am going to need to get these things?

We will give you a huge amount of the supply beforehand, then will print 20% more numbers every year and then just give most of it to people close to us, like you, so dont worry about specific amounts, this effect will be called trickle down economics, and it will benefit everyone in society equally in the most efficient way possible.

With Bitcoin, at our current market rate of $21k-ish, it's going to cost me something like 25 bitcoin for a decently nice lambo (let's say with a market price of $500k-ish)... Of course, I can consider that I may well have been able to get those 25 BTC for anywhere between $250 to $1k per bitcoin between 2014 and early 2017.  I am not saying how many bitcoin that I have, but I am saying that something like 25 bitcoin could have been purchased fairly easily for between about $6,250 and $25k between 2014 and early 2017. 

Of course, Lambos are not stable in their prices either... so they have likely gone up in price, but if we hold the Lambo price at $500k, I would have only needed 7.25 or so bitcoin to buy a $500k lambo in November 2021... so yeah, bitcoin value (market price) fluctuates with the passage of time too, and how much I can buy with one bitcoin now as compared to what I could buy with it last year or even 5 years ago.. and surely we are going to have fluctuation of what can be bought with bitcoin as compared with fiat into the future, too.

There are some available for half of that i think.

[JayJuanGee]

With Bitcoin, at our current market rate of $21k-ish, it's going to cost me something like 25 bitcoin for a decently nice lambo (let's say with a market price of $500k-ish)... Of course, I can consider that I may well have been able to get those 25 BTC for anywhere between $250 to $1k per bitcoin between 2014 and early 2017.  I am not saying how many bitcoin that I have, but I am saying that something like 25 bitcoin could have been purchased fairly easily for between about $6,250 and $25k between 2014 and early 2017.  

Of course, Lambos are not stable in their prices either... so they have likely gone up in price, but if we hold the Lambo price at $500k, I would have only needed 7.25 or so bitcoin to buy a $500k lambo in November 2021... so yeah, bitcoin value (market price) fluctuates with the passage of time too, and how much I can buy with one bitcoin now as compared to what I could buy with it last year or even 5 years ago.. and surely we are going to have fluctuation of what can be bought with bitcoin as compared with fiat into the future, too.

There are some available for half of that i think.

I guess I did not think through my hypothetical well enough, since I had not been shopping for Lambos recently.  I just rounded it to a kind of easy to calculate number.. maybe if lambo does not work for that price, then a nice boat?  In any event, the point was supposed to be that times are not so good in bitcoinlandia at least in terms of the price in recent times, relatively speaking.

For example, we are ONLY up right around 80x from 2015...

and only up around 2x if you start your calculation from September 2020.

I do like to consider my own average cost per BTC to be around $1k, so I suppose times are tough no matter how the matter is spun, since that is ONLY around 20x up.. and... especially if I had ONLY been admitting to having 0.63 BTC.. so that is not even close to enough for a Lambo yet anyhow, even a reduced price one.. surely nothing that does not have problems.

I am sorry to say that I am not even fun, either because I am even getting less excited about the Snowshow/tadamichi numbers system because I was under the impression that anyone (such as me) could issue numbers, now you are changing it in terms of from where the numbers have to come.. sure thanks for putting me on the priority list.. it is like in theory, I would then advantage from the Catillon effect..

Yet, I am still starting to feel loss of confidence on my end, and I am thinking that if I just keeping on building up my bitcoin stack with a kind of Dollar cost averaging system would be better than that numbers system.  

I tend to recommend $100 per week or $10 per week for newbies into BTC upon considering their cashflow and all that.  Maybe Snowshow will be able to describe the number system better than you... because I thought that I was starting to understand it, and I was even getting excited and ready to deploy it, but your further explanation is not convincing me.  

It does not even seem similar to bitcoin.. At least bitcoin has value, and yeah, bitcoin might not be at the greatest price range in recent months, but that just seems to make bitcoin more of a buying opportunity at the moment anyhow.

I am not completely convinced of the numbers system, but if Snowshow can maybe explain the numbers system a wee bit better, or if I end up getting a hooker, Lambo and/or blow out through the numbers system, then that might help me to better understand how the numbers system works, too.  

I will await either Snowshow or your clarification if I am not properly understanding how the numbers thing has or gets any value.. especially compared with bitcoin (a system that actually works).  Personally, bitcoin does not even seem like that numbers system, and Snowshow was saying that the numbers system was similar to bitcoin, and it is not convincing, for sure... Bitcoin has historical value, present value, and likely future value too.

[Snowshow]

When a bank goes bankrupt that effects equity and the owners of the banks. But the borrowers are still obligated to repay their loans. And it is those repayments what enable fiat currency holders to get resources (labour, services and products) from the borrowers. In that way, debt in which they invested by receiving fiat currencies, is paid to them.

Unsecured creditors are not the first in line to have their funds recovered when banks fail.  Savers often lose out.  This is why the FSCS exists.  Stop pretending that it's a magical world of make believe where bank balances are somehow left intact when the company that printed them from thin air becomes insolvent.

Bitcoin is a number. It has nothing to do with anything that's going on in the banking system.

Bitcoin is a physical network, a protocol and a blockchain.  It is all the better for not being part of an antiquated and corrupt banking system where private companies have a licence to print money from nothing and only hold 1% of the funds as fractional reserve.  

We've built a better system which does not require placing trust in private companies who can become insolvent and wipe out any money you may have deposited.  Money which, once you deposit it, no longer belongs to you in the eyes of the law.  Anything you deposit becomes the property of the bank.  The balance you think you hold is nothing more than an IOU.

You're again showing the ignorance of how the banks operate. All numbers are printed out of thin air. Numbers on invoices, numbers on banknotes or bank accounts, numbers in mathematical books etc. The point is what these numbers represent. In the banking system they represent the quantity of debt. Debt is a resource that is protected with the collaterals of the borrowers. The collaterals of the borrowers didn't cease to exist just because a particular bank became insolvent. Insolvency effects the equity and the owners of the banks, not a currency in general. Although a currency in general can be affected if the whole banking system is based on bad collaterals, like in corrupted third-world countries. But all that is besides the point for this discussion. Here we discuss the fraudulent investment scheme in which the numeric labels of members who joined the scheme (bitcoins) are falsely advertised as money. And where the network (Bitcoin) that transfers those labels is falsely advertised as a payment system. Read the OP. I edited it again, just for you, to make the important points more clear.

@JayJuanGee Please stop trolling this discussion.

[DooMAD]

Debt is a resource that is protected with the collaterals of the borrowers. The collaterals of the borrowers didn't cease to exist just because a particular bank became insolvent.

But see, that's the rub, isn't it?

If you owe debt to the failing bank, like a mortgage, the failed bank can sell your debt on to a different bank.  But the money raised through that process will go to shareholders and bondholders first.  After the dust settles, there isn't enough money left to cover what is owed to savers due to how fractional reserve works.

If the bank owe you money because you are an unsecured creditor, that debt does not get sold on to another bank.  It's a one-way street.  If you owe the bank, your debt stands.  If the bank owe you, that debt can and will be voided.  Again, you are only covered up to the amount your government are willing to protect.  Anything above that amount is likely forfeit. 

You, like most of the general public, do not seem to grasp this reality.  This has happened before.  It will happen again.  But not in Bitcoin.  Because we are not a debt-based system.

[Snowshow]

Debt is a resource that is protected with the collaterals of the borrowers. The collaterals of the borrowers didn't cease to exist just because a particular bank became insolvent.

But see, that's the rub, isn't it?

If you owe debt to the failing bank, like a mortgage, the failed bank can sell your debt on to a different bank.  But the money raised through that process will go to shareholders and bondholders first.  After the dust settles, there isn't enough money left to cover what is owed to savers due to how fractional reserve works.

If the bank owe you money because you are an unsecured creditor, that debt does not get sold on to another bank.  It's a one-way street.  If you owe the bank, your debt stands.  If the bank owe you, that debt can and will be voided.  Again, you are only covered up to the amount your government are willing to protect.  Anything above that amount is likely forfeit.  

You, like most of the general public, do not seem to grasp this reality.  This has happened before.  It will happen again.  But not in Bitcoin.  Because we are not a debt-based system.

Wrong. If you hold fiat currency, that is, numbers it is the banking system, it is that system that ows you, not a particular bank. So if a particular failed bank sell their assets (loans included) to a different bank, it is that bank that will force the borrowers to repay their loans. And in order for the borrowers to be able to reply their loans they are forced to provide labour, services and products to the number holders. In that way, the debt, that the system owes to those holders (because they invested in debt whose quantity is represented with numbers) is paid.

Bitcoins on the other hand are not numbers that represent quantity of debt or other resource that people own. Bitcoins (lowercase "b") are just units of Nakamoto's imaginary number (21 million) that the system or network (Bitcoin) attributed to people's addresses as a way to label that they joined the Nakamoto scheme. Bitcoins are simply a modern way of labeling members of a traditional fraudulent investment scheme.

[JayJuanGee]

@JayJuanGee Please stop trolling this discussion.

You seem to not understand what is "trolling."

I am not trolling.  I am providing examples, comparing and contrasting, and you had seemed to have been saying that bitcoin was just like numbers attached to nothing, but that is not true.  Bitcoin has attached prices that can also be assessed as value in various ways. It is not an easy topic, and your attempts to overly simplify, including proclaiming that bitcoin does not have value fails to capture what is bitcoin - and surely it does not seem to amount to your numbers system.  

Just to reiterate the earlier example, if I had enough bitcoin right now, i could get hookers, lambos and blow with such bitcoin, and the bitcoin that I would end up using for such consumptive purchase could have been attained (let's say having had obtained the bitcoin 6-8 years ago) at a fraction of the actual today's cost of hookers, lambos and blow.  

You could not even come close to making those kinds of claims about the retention of purchasing power or even the increase in purchasing power in regards to dollars or the numbers system that you seemed to have been suggesting to exist.

In other words, you seem to be mixed up in the various claims that you are making, and you are proclaiming that I am trolling because my examples, even as further highlighted by tadamichi, seem to show how vacuous your various claims are... and you are not even getting better with the passage of time.. You try to imply your claims are getting stronger, but instead you are just ongoingly  changing aspects of the topic  - so you seem to be trolling your own topic.. since you cannot (or will not) even address your original questions/assertions or the various responses to your questions/assertions.

Bitcoins on the other hand are not numbers that represent quantity of debt or other resource that people own. Bitcoins (lowercase "b") are just units of Nakamoto's imaginary number (21 million) that the system or network (Bitcoin) attributed to people's addresses as a way to label that they joined the Nakamoto scheme. Bitcoins are simply a modern way of labeling members of a traditional fraudulent investment scheme.

You are right that the value/price of bitcoin does not represent debt owed to anyone.  Bitcoin is a bearer instrument that has value and price attached to it, and of course, both the value and the price fluctuates, but we can still transact with bitcoin in terms of today's spot price or we could hold it out of anticipation of a greater or even an equal future price.. we might even attach some value to just being able to hold value and to be able to spend bitcoin later, even if it might have gone down in value/price in the future.  

Your attempts to pigeonhole bitcoin seems to intentionally fail/refuse to recognize the various ways that bitcoin has value and also certain kinds of values that are likely greater in a number of ways than capabilities within various existing fiat (or debt) based systems.

I am not even proclaiming that there are not any costs to having such power contained in bitcoin to be able to transact directly without a third-party intermediary who might either interfere with the transaction or change the value of the underlying bitcoin (or satoshis).. Many of us have already seen various ways that bitcoin has become more user-friendly over the years, but there are still potential costs of losing bitcoin private keys and then no one can recover that value that had been lost.

In the real world, rather than in Snowshow's fantasy land, there seems to be a whole hell of a lot of value in terms of NOT having bitcoin debased with the passage of time, and surely none of the current holders of bitcoin or even the future holders of bitcoin can predict with confidence the future price of bitcoin, even though there are various models to help to provide some guidelines, but with the passage of time it seems that many bitcoiners (and even precoiners or current no coiners) are learning that there is likely greater value in terms of being in a system (bitcoin) in which they underlying currency/value is not being ongoingly debased.  

You (Snowshow) continue to just dance around such topic of which currencies/assets are debased relative to other currencies/assets and relative to bitcoin too, and you seem to be ongiongly trying to attribute way more value to various traditional fiat-based systems than they deserve, and sure some of those currently practiced fiat-based and/or debt systems are not likely to completely disappear in bitcoin, but at least the foundation level of bitcoin has way more solidness (and the collateral that you admit to be valuable) as compared with the various fiat-based and debt-based systems that are currently practiced in a variety of ongoingly deceptive and confusing ways.

[DooMAD]

If you hold fiat currency, that is, numbers it is the banking system, it is that system that ows you, not a particular bank. So if a particular failed bank sell their assets (loans included) to a different bank, it is that bank that will force the borrowers to repay their loans. And in order for the borrowers to be able to reply their loans they are forced to provide labour, services and products to the number holders. In that way, the debt, that the system owes to those holders (because they invested in debt whose quantity is represented with numbers) is paid.

Horseshit.  Complete and utter horseshit.  If you can't understand fiat well enough to understand why agencies like the FSCS exist, or why millionaires put their money in property/art/etc, then you clearly aren't in a position to argue any further on this point.  You are too ignorant and misinformed to present any credible arguments against Bitcoin.

[JayJuanGee]

If you hold fiat currency, that is, numbers it is the banking system, it is that system that ows you, not a particular bank. So if a particular failed bank sell their assets (loans included) to a different bank, it is that bank that will force the borrowers to repay their loans. And in order for the borrowers to be able to reply their loans they are forced to provide labour, services and products to the number holders. In that way, the debt, that the system owes to those holders (because they invested in debt whose quantity is represented with numbers) is paid.

Horseshit.  Complete and utter horseshit.  If you can't understand fiat well enough to understand why agencies like the FSCS exist, or why millionaires put their money in property/art/etc, then you clearly aren't in a position to argue any further on this point.  You are too ignorant and misinformed to present any credible arguments against Bitcoin.

Snowshow is unqualified?  Who would've thunk?     

[darkv0rt3x]

No, my shit coins or fiat currencies are numbers that represent the quantity of debt created in the banking system that I own. Which is clearly evidenced in the balance sheets of the banks where the deposits are recorded as banks liabilities. Banknotes are of course redeemable for the deposits. Bitcoin doesn't represent the quantity of debt. Nobody ows you anything when you hold it. So, bitcoin is indeed just a worthless numeric label. That's why you're forced to find new victims to dump that shit on them. There's zero similarly between fiat and bitcoin.

You've been explained this fact countless times, yet you refuse to accept it. Instead, you just repeat usual nonsense about bitcoin doing the same thing as fiat currency.

What you keep failing to understand is that actually Bitcoin represents way better any resource than your shit money. That's a fact and you can't accept it, or at least don't want to accept it. No matter how many times people try to show you by means of 2 + 2, you keep repeating yourself over and over again about what is debt, what it represents, what fiat money do, what it doesn't do, bla bla bla as if you were telling us something we don't know.
You're like almost 20 years late my friend. We know everything you seem to know and we are showing knowledge like 20 years ahead of you.

But as I told you before, keep going with the troll, while I'm getting more and more useless numbers of that scheme Satoshi created while you are getting nothing and even more, you're losing as time passes by! Once more HFST.BTCBTCBTCBTC