How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[DaveF]

Just click ignore on the OP and move on.
This 'bitcoin is just a number' thing keeps coming up, and we keep responding to it.
It's probably just the same troll or couple of trolls who have no money or job or anything else, who will never be able to get anything never mind any crypto and just come here to ramble on.
That or conspiracy theory nutcase. Either way, just ignore them and they will go back to just sitting in their parents basement not bothering anyone.

-Dave

[1714673245]

1714673245

[BlackHatCoiner]

Where is your bitcoin if after paying $40,000 only the swap of symbols happened in your electronic address? This: "0", changed into this: "1". What exactly is "meaningful"?

It's meaningful if we both agree it is. It's as simple as that.

After that, mathematical symbol "0" was swapped for this symbol: "1". And that means you are "free".

If they later find others who're willing to give their goods & services for a currency that is controlled by no financial institutions, it is called freedom. Monetary authorities are run by people who may abuse their position, against the rest, for their own benefit. They're central points of failure.

Humans do mistakes, whether those happen on purpose or not, and those mistakes have consequences. However, if a financial institution (such as a central bank) does a mistake, its impact is potentially on the entire economy. And it is highly likely that people will, sooner or later, abuse their power.

The fact that no one is able to change a symbol in your address, making it censorship resistant

It is clear that you haven't understood the basics. Censorship resistance comes from the lack of feasibility to reverse a transaction, not to change symbols on addresses.

[Snowshow]

Just click ignore on the OP and move on.
This 'bitcoin is just a number' thing keeps coming up, and we keep responding to it.
It's probably just the same troll or couple of trolls who have no money or job or anything else, who will never be able to get anything never mind any crypto and just come here to ramble on.
That or conspiracy theory nutcase. Either way, just ignore them and they will go back to just sitting in their parents basement not bothering anyone.

-Dave

I was wrong when I said that bitcoin is a number. It's not. Number is a number, a mathematical abstraction represented with symbols(0-9). So it is impossible in principle for bitcoin to be a number. In this topic I realized that there's no such thing as bitcoin. When someone says that they bought bitcoin all they can show is change of symbols in their address. So, nothing was bought. Changing "0" into "1" is not a purchase of a thing. So, indeed, there's no such thing as bitcoin. There's only the system that changes and stores numbers next to virtual address. And a lot of misinformation. That's it.

[pawanjain]

Assume that you have a message.
You can forward the same message to many different people.
But can you do that with bitcoin ? Can you transfer the same bitcoin to many different people ?

Ofcourse not!
I wouldn't say that your theory is absolute shit although I think it is but since you are a newbie I will advice you to read more about bitcoin.
Get a grip of it's basics and learn more about bitcoin for beginners.

Of course yes! Bitcoin is a number. Check what you receive to your bitcoin address - a number. Let's say you received "5". I can transfer the same number to many electronic addresses through many different messaging systems, the same as someone would send you this number through Satoshi's messaging system. In the same sense, I can send the word "Hello" through many messaging systems, but not through Satoshi's one. That's because Satoshi's system is a primitive one - it sends only numbers.

That's exactly where you are completely wrong dude. You think you can transfer the same BTC to different addresses but you cannot.
That's just one basic difference I have highlighted whereas there are many differences between bitcoin and the traditional messaging system.
I feel pity on you that despite so many people trying to correct you where you are wrong you still think you are wiser than the others.
But it's okay to think that way because that is what newbies do.

[Snowshow]

Where is your bitcoin if after paying $40,000 only the swap of symbols happened in your electronic address? This: "0", changed into this: "1". What exactly is "meaningful"?

It's meaningful if we both agree it is. It's as simple as that.

After that, mathematical symbol "0" was swapped for this symbol: "1". And that means you are "free".

If they later find others who're willing to give their goods & services for a currency that is controlled by no financial institutions, it is called freedom. Monetary authorities are run by people who may abuse their position, against the rest, for their own benefit. They're central points of failure.

Humans do mistakes, whether those happen on purpose or not, and those mistakes have consequences. However, if a financial institution (such as a central bank) does a mistake, its impact is potentially on the entire economy. And it is highly likely that people will, sooner or later, abuse their power.

The fact that no one is able to change a symbol in your address, making it censorship resistant

It is clear that you haven't understood the basics. Censorship resistance comes from the lack of feasibility to reverse a transaction, not to change symbols on addresses.

What is meaningful? Where are the transactions in the bitcoin system?

A transaction is a completed agreement between a buyer and a seller to exchange goods, services, or financial assets in return for money.

Where's good, where's service, money, asset... if is the only thing that's going on is the change of numbers next to addresses?

[BlackHatCoiner]

A transaction is a completed agreement between a buyer and a seller to exchange goods, services, or financial assets in return for money.

Yes. If both of us agree that Bitcoin is money, then we can start exchanging stuff for bitcoins.

Where's good, where's service, money, asset... if is the only thing that's going on is the change of numbers next to addresses?

You give me food, I give you bitcoins, so there's the food. Same happens with every currency, why shouldn't it happen with Bitcoin?

[DooMAD]

So, what did you purchase?

Censorship resistance,
Financial autonomy,
Monetary sovereignty,
Freedom.

People used to say money can't buy those things.  Bitcoin proves them wrong.

And as the icing on the cake, a hedge against inflation and a distinct likelihood of increased purchasing power later down the road.

a guy that holds that address, also enjoys financial autonomy, monetary sovereignty and freedom. So you gave your property for free only to have something that a guy with 0 BTC also has.

Incorrect.  Someone with 0 BTC gains no tangible benefits.  If they have no bitcoin, they can't spend any, meaning they would have to spend something else.  Using something other than Bitcoin like a credit/debit card, PayPal, ApplePay, etc means relying on private companies.  So their transaction could be reversed or their account could be frozen.  They may not be permitted to send funds to the intended recipient. 

Just because you're being willfully obtuse and refusing to acknowledge the reasons why people appreciate Bitcoin and what it can offer them, the fact remains that plenty of people do recognise the benefits. 

Consider finding a new hobby.  Every new account you register here is just another manifestation of your ongoing failure. 

[arcmetal]

Just click ignore on the OP and move on.
This 'bitcoin is just a number' thing keeps coming up, and we keep responding to it.
It's probably just the same troll or couple of trolls who have no money or job or anything else, who will never be able to get anything never mind any crypto and just come here to ramble on.
That or conspiracy theory nutcase. Either way, just ignore them and they will go back to just sitting in their parents basement not bothering anyone.

-Dave

I was wrong when I said that bitcoin is a number. It's not. Number is a number, a mathematical abstraction represented with symbols(0-9). So it is impossible in principle for bitcoin to be a number. In this topic I realized that there's no such thing as bitcoin. When someone says that they bought bitcoin all they can show is change of symbols in their address. So, nothing was bought. Changing "0" into "1" is not a purchase of a thing. So, indeed, there's no such thing as bitcoin. There's only the system that changes and stores numbers next to virtual address. And a lot of misinformation. That's it.

This is just silly modern philosophy nonsense.  It is a form of Solipsism.  From its wiki article:

solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure; the external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist outside the mind.

Metaphysical solipsism ... metaphysical solipsists maintain that the self is the only existing reality and that all other realities, including the external world and other persons, are representations of that self, and have no independent existence.

And this part here suggest that it is possibly all just silly nonsense:

Solipsism is not a falsifiable hypothesis as described by Karl Popper: there does not seem to be an imaginable disproof.

According to Popper: a hypothesis that cannot be falsified is not scientific, and a solipsist can observe "the success of sciences."

Being a part time artist myself I enjoy silly nonsense, and so, it is why I've continued reading this thread.

But, the comment that DaveF posted, which I quoted above, is really the most pertinent comment in this whole thread.

[Snowshow]

A transaction is a completed agreement between a buyer and a seller to exchange goods, services, or financial assets in return for money.

Yes. If both of us agree that Bitcoin is money, then we can start exchanging stuff for bitcoins.

Where's good, where's service, money, asset... if is the only thing that's going on is the change of numbers next to addresses?

You give me food, I give you bitcoins, so there's the food. Same happens with every currency, why shouldn't it happen with Bitcoin?

The only thing we can agree on is for mathematical symbols to change next to our address. If I give you food, and the symbols are changed, where's bitcoin in that transaction? The only transaction is me giving you food. You gave me nothing. So, I can repeat the question:

Where's bitcoin if the only thing that has happened is the change of mathematical symbols next to addresses?

[BlackHatCoiner]

The only thing we can agree on is for mathematical symbols to change next to our address.

And bank notes are nothing but mathematical symbols printed on paper. They gain value, because people use them as currency. Again, it's as simple as that, but you want to prove us you're right and we're all dumb who pay for a "non-existent thing" as you've also said in the other thread.

You're that guy and I don't care what you say; you tell the exact, same kind of bullshit.

[Snowshow]

The only thing we can agree on is for mathematical symbols to change next to our address.

And bank notes are nothing but mathematical symbols printed on paper. They gain value, because people use them as currency. Again, it's as simple as that, but you want to prove us you're right and we're all dumb who pay for a "non-existent thing" as you've also said in the other thread.

You're that guy and I don't care what you say; you tell the exact, same kind of bullshit.

Why are you ignoring the question?

Yes, bank notes are mathematical symbols printed on paper. 100 TSLA are mathematical symbols and letters in the brokerage account. No shit Sherlock. Tell me something I don't know. But, those symbols and letters is not what people own. They own shares in debt and equity. Mathematical symbols only express how many shares in the said THINGS they own.

What THING do you own by having mathematical symbols next to your electronic address?

Question is of course rhetorical. Because the answer is obvious: no such thing exist. There's no money/asset/digital product called bitcoin or BTC. There's only a software program that attaches mathematical symbols to virtual address, and a distributed database where this is stored. BTC are just letters in the application that reads symbols attached to address.

So, there's no such thing as bitcoin. You are not buying digital asset, you are not investing in something. Only mathematical symbols are attached to your address.

[Snowshow]

So, what did you purchase?

Censorship resistance,
Financial autonomy,
Monetary sovereignty,
Freedom.

People used to say money can't buy those things.  Bitcoin proves them wrong.

And as the icing on the cake, a hedge against inflation and a distinct likelihood of increased purchasing power later down the road.

a guy that holds that address, also enjoys financial autonomy, monetary sovereignty and freedom. So you gave your property for free only to have something that a guy with 0 BTC also has.

Incorrect.  Someone with 0 BTC gains no tangible benefits.  If they have no bitcoin, they can't spend any, meaning they would have to spend something else.  Using something other than Bitcoin like a credit/debit card, PayPal, ApplePay, etc means relying on private companies.  So their transaction could be reversed or their account could be frozen.  They may not be permitted to send funds to the intended recipient.  

Just because you're being willfully obtuse and refusing to acknowledge the reasons why people appreciate Bitcoin and what it can offer them, the fact remains that plenty of people do recognise the benefits.  

Consider finding a new hobby.  Every new account you register here is just another manifestation of your ongoing failure.  

Someone with "0" attached to their address, has mathematical symbol the same as someone with "1" attached to their address. So where's bitcoin in this? What do people appreciate? Where's the digital money that offers something to people? I see no money. I see mathematical symbols attached to address. Someone has a single symbol: "0" or "9". Someone else has many symbols: "0.000002" or "0.000000099". But where's bitcoin? Where's that revolutionary money everyone is talking about? Can you tell me please? They say that debt is bad money. And that the money created by Satoshi is good money. But where is it? Where is this good money?

[slaman29]

I will ask you one simple question: what did you purchase if the only thing that happened in your bitcoin address is a swap of mathematical symbols? For e.g., symbol "0" was changed into symbol "1". So, what did you purchase?

Censorship resistance,
Financial autonomy,
Monetary sovereignty,
Freedom.

People used to say money can't buy those things.  Bitcoin proves them wrong.

And as the icing on the cake, a hedge against inflation and a distinct likelihood of increased purchasing power later down the road.

Thank you for putting the answers for me in ways shorter than I am able to.

I'm a simple, regular guy. For sure more average than most of the people commenting in the Bitcoin technical discussions which I enjoy and cannot really contribute.

We all pay money for what we think is valuable. I don't purchase antivirus, for example, but I know people who do because they believe it gives them security because they cannot protect themselves. Some buy password managers.

I accept payment in Bitcoin for small work, I don't buy as much as I have earned, but I would rather accept Bitcoin than Paypal for example because I have never had problems selling my Bitcoin or had it frozen or blocked. Paypal has done it to me many, many times. I gave up on them because my nationality makes it a problem for them I guess.

Is this freedom? Is this financial autonomy? If this censorship free? I believe so. I may not have used these words but my actions allowed with Bitcoin and NOT with Paypal (which is doing that because it is fiat based) are how I believe these points are true.

[TheGreatPython]

               Come on guys don't be too harsh on the guy. Maybe he just honestly doesn't know and believes he is doing something really helpful for the community. But regardless, you op, should always try to fact check whatever information it is you are trying to spread regardless of your reasons. Hope this serves as a lesson for you. Good thing that lots of people here know better and gave enough fck to tell their thoughts which prevented other newbies like you to be misled by your false information.

We can't blame them because maybe someone got offended on some of the word thrown by the OP because you know many of us here are solid bitcoiners and they are too sensitive when they think someone makes fun of btc or spread wrong information but in my case, I am not really offended when I see posts like this but in fact this makes me laugh, its funny that it can gave me a little bit of entertainment .

I thought OP is going to say that you can send a message in the form of sending a bitcoin, I was expecting that we will say that but I think that is possible? I have seen someone before decode a text message but I think it was something from the blockchain. It's interesting though.

[BlackHatCoiner]

you are not investing in something

That's, pedantically, true. If don't create capital with it, "investing into Bitcoin" may sound grammatically incorrect. Neither do you, though, when you use a fiat currency. Don't mess investments with currencies, let's take it one at a time.

Since I've seen you're keen on definitions, let's see how Wikipedia defines what's "currency":

A currency[a] in the most specific sense is money in any form when in use or circulation as a medium of exchange, especially circulating banknotes and coins.[1][2] A more general definition is that a currency is a system of money (monetary units) in common use, especially for people in a nation.[3] Under this definition, U.S. dollars (US$), euros (€), Indian rupee (₹), Japanese yen (¥), and pounds sterling (£) are examples of currencies.

So, a currency is, by definition, used as intermediary to exchanging. A country may create its own to handle the economy. It, therefore, legalizes its use. People use the currency, because they live inside the country. The administration of it happens from the central bank of the country.

Is everything good so far?

[Snowshow]

you are not investing in something

That's, pedantically, true. If don't create capital with it, "investing into Bitcoin" may sound grammatically incorrect. Neither do you, though, when you use a fiat currency. Don't mess investments with currencies, let's take it one at a time.

Since I've seen you're keen on definitions, let's see how Wikipedia defines what's "currency":

A currency[a] in the most specific sense is money in any form when in use or circulation as a medium of exchange, especially circulating banknotes and coins.[1][2] A more general definition is that a currency is a system of money (monetary units) in common use, especially for people in a nation.[3] Under this definition, U.S. dollars (US$), euros (€), Indian rupee (₹), Japanese yen (¥), and pounds sterling (£) are examples of currencies.

So, a currency is, by definition, used as intermediary to exchanging. A country may create its own to handle the economy. It, therefore, legalizes its use. People use the currency, because they live inside the country. The administration of it happens from the central bank of the country.

Is everything good so far?

Sure, a currency is money in some form. That's true. A key word is "some". So something has to exist to be a currency. Some commodity, debt, equity, good, whatever. That's why I am asking where is cryptocurrency called bitcoin? I see math symbols attached to address. But I see nothing else. That's why I am asking you. And you are keep talking about irrelevant things. Or giving definitions of existing things. If you say that bitcoin is a digital currency, a digital product, you have to be able to show it. If I say that I have a specific quantity of digital products, such as pictures, sounds, videos or applications, I am able to show these products to you. But all you can show me is mathematical symbols attached to addresses. They are supposed to inform us about the specific quantity of a digital product called bitcoin. But where's bitcoin? How do you know bitcoin is digital if you're not able to show it?

Anyone can write a computer program that will attach math symbols to addresses and then claim these symbols quantity a particular product. But the key question is: where is that product? What is it? That's why I've asked the question: what is bitcoin? But all of you here are ignoring the question. You, for example, keep talking about bitcoin, but all that exists are math symbols. The owner of an address with this symbol: "0" supposedly owns zero bitcoins. Someone with this symbol: "1", supposedly owns one bitcoin. And someone with this symbol: "8", supposedly owns eight times more bitcoins than the previous owner. Eight times more of this digital product. And it is said this product is revolutionary. But where's this revolutionary digital product? How do you know it's revolutionary if you're not able to show it?

So, can you tell me where is this product located? Blockchain only has addresses and math symbols attached to them. All three address owners mentioned above, have equal number of symbols. Only the shape of symbols is different - "0", "1", "8". But the last owner supposedly has eight times more of this bitcoin than the previous owner. So, can you tell me where bitcoin is located?

[BlackHatCoiner]

So something has to exist to be a currency. Some commodity, debt, equity, good, whatever.

Why? Why should there be debt, equity, goods etc.? The US government perpetually prints a lot amount of money, and those banknotes don't represent anything anymore. Before 1971, there was a law saying that you can exchange those with gold. Currently, this isn't the case. They're just pieces of paper and people treat them like currency, because they trust their government. In other words, the government says they're the base medium of exchange and people use those to transact with.

Debt is created once there's loaning of money. Printing money, alone, doesn't create debt. Is there anything you disagree with, so far?

[Snowshow]

So something has to exist to be a currency. Some commodity, debt, equity, good, whatever.

Why? Why should there be debt, equity, goods etc.? The US government perpetually prints a lot amount of money, and those banknotes don't represent anything anymore. Before 1971, there was a law saying that you can exchange those with gold. Currently, this isn't the case. They're just pieces of paper and people treat them like currency, because they trust their government. In other words, the government says they're the base medium of exchange and people use those to transact with.

Debt is created once there's loaning of money. Printing money, alone, doesn't create debt. Is there anything you disagree with, so far?

Banknotes are loans to commercial banks. No banknote or deposit can be put into circulation without a loan. Only if you counterfeit them. Then that's a criminal offense that is punishable by years in prison.

So, can you now answer my questions? You want a food from me and you say I'll receive bitcoin in return. But all I see happening in such situations is a swap of math symbols between addresses. I see no thing or a product called bitcoin. Math symbols are used to express the concept of quantity of things. Symbol "2" informs us that there's more quantity of something then when we have symbol "1". So, swapping the two symbols means that one person transferred something to another person. It is said this is bitcoin. It is said bitcoin is a digital product. That it is censorship resistant. That it provides financial autonomy, monetary sovereignty, freedom. I would like to see such a fantastic product. I wanna check it and see whether one peace of that product, or one share in ownership of that product is worth $40,000. So, can you finally reveal where this product is located?

[BlackHatCoiner]

Banknotes are loans to commercial banks.

Yes, but banknotes alone don't create debt. While commercial banks do borrow money from the central bank, the money the central bank creates is out of thin air. They represent nothing.

Yes, there's lending between the central bank and the commercial banks and yes, there's lending between the commercial banks and the households/businesses, but that doesn't show that the dollar, as a unit represents a "thing", as you put it. All I see is trust from the commercial banks and households/businesses to the monetary policy of the central bank, which is controlled usually by one entity, the government.

[Snowshow]

Banknotes are loans to commercial banks.

Yes, but banknotes alone don't create debt. While commercial banks do borrow money from the central bank, the money the central bank creates is out of thin air. They represent nothing.

Yes, there's lending between the central bank and the commercial banks and yes, there's lending between the commercial banks and the households/businesses, but that doesn't show that the dollar, as a unit represents a "thing", as you put it. All I see is trust from the commercial banks and households/businesses to the monetary policy of the central bank, which is controlled usually by one entity, the government.

Debt are loan contracts secured with collaterals or bank capital and evidenced in the accounting books of the banks. These things do exist. Math symbols on banknotes or deposit accounts simply informs us about the share in this debt. Check the video in the OP to see how the debt is paid to its owners.

Can I now finally get the answer to my question?