How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[hZti]

Then, people took his paper at face value. They took it without actually questioning or doubting what was written.

The only one how actually takes everything at face value is you. Your only argument is that bitcoin is not the same as other currencies. But it is not meant to be the same, because otherwise we would not need it. Also you can not believe that people can buy things just because they want to. In many cases there is not an economical reason behind it, but still it does not mean it is a scam.

[1714702252]

1714702252

[1714702252]

1714702252

[1714702252]

1714702252

[1714702252]

1714702252

[Snowshow]

It was not meant to be an insult but an actual question. How can you come to an forum that for 13 years discusses about the benefits of bitcoin and start to fight everyone. This to me can only have a few reasons and none of them are good for you 
Anyways, even if you don't believe bitcoin is a banking system wich you can argue. Still people can see a value in the benefits it offers. If you can't see the benefits it offers it is your problem.

Again, if there's value in the system why all the bitcoin holders must run out of that system to benefit? Literally every bitcoin holder is proof that bitcoin system is worthless.

[Snowshow]

Then, people took his paper at face value. They took it without actually questioning or doubting what was written.

The only one how actually takes everything at face value is you. Your only argument is that bitcoin is not the same as other currencies. But it is not meant to be the same, because otherwise we would not need it. Also you can not believe that people can buy things just because they want to. In many cases there is not an economical reason behind it, but still it does not mean it is a scam.

Your fictions and interpretations are not my arguments.

[GigaBit]

With the change of days almost everything of us changes. Few days ago which are impossible to do now those very much easy. Once a time which are not imagined now we have no time to think particular things because for the advancement. The way you or someone is looking at Bitcoin, actually we are looking it at the opposite. The use of digital currency has started in the world. Maybe in a few days it will be fully adapted and physical money will be extinct.

[hZti]

Again, if there's value in the system why all the bitcoin holders must run out of that system to benefit? Literally every bitcoin holder is proof that bitcoin system is worthless.

Because it is the same for every currency. You can never benefit from a currency if you do not trade it, it does not matter if there is some kind of value (like debt) stored in it or not. Or how can you benefit from holding a 5 dollar bill that you are not able to trade for something?

[hZti]

Then, people took his paper at face value. They took it without actually questioning or doubting what was written.

The only one how actually takes everything at face value is you. Your only argument is that bitcoin is not the same as other currencies. But it is not meant to be the same, because otherwise we would not need it. Also you can not believe that people can buy things just because they want to. In many cases there is not an economical reason behind it, but still it does not mean it is a scam.

Your fictions and interpretations are not my arguments.

Well because you write stuff that makes no sense. Then if somebody tries to argue it you tell them that is not what you meant

[Snowshow]

Again, if there's value in the system why all the bitcoin holders must run out of that system to benefit? Literally every bitcoin holder is proof that bitcoin system is worthless.

Because it is the same for every currency. You can never benefit from a currency if you do not trade it, it does not matter if there is some kind of value (like debt) stored in it or not. Or how can you benefit from holding a 5 dollar bill that you are not able to trade for something?

But I just showed you that traditional currency is debt and from debt people benefit when debt is paid by borrowers, so they benefit from within the currency system.

Let me now try again: if there's value in the bitcoin system why all the bitcoin holders must run out of that system to benefit?

[hZti]

Again, if there's value in the system why all the bitcoin holders must run out of that system to benefit? Literally every bitcoin holder is proof that bitcoin system is worthless.

Because it is the same for every currency. You can never benefit from a currency if you do not trade it, it does not matter if there is some kind of value (like debt) stored in it or not. Or how can you benefit from holding a 5 dollar bill that you are not able to trade for something?

But I just showed you that traditional currency is debt and from debt people benefit when debt is paid by borrowers, so they benefit from within the currency system.

Let me now try again: if there's value in the bitcoin system why all the bitcoin holders must run out of that system to benefit?

No first answer my question: How can you benefit from the USD without exchanging it for goods?

[goldkingcoiner]

It's adorable when someone completely misunderstands something and then tries to convince others that their flawed comprehension is some sort of revelatory truth.  Particularly when they're on their umpteenth username and their spiel still doesn't sound convincing.

Possession of a private key which allows you to spend a sum of BTC is very much a manifestation of ownership rights.  BTC cannot be duplicated like the types of message you have described.  I look forward to your next moniker and subsequent failed attempt to insinuate that there is no value in what Bitcoin offers.  People immeasurably smarter than you see the value in it.  

THIS.

This is where the thread should have ended.

I absolutely agree with this poster because obviously anyone who does not understand something and cannot even explain it in a simple fashion has absolutely no business telling people the pros or cons of said subject.

I think 90+ % of people here really do not fully understand how blockchain works at the technical level and they obviously do not understand the algorithms and code behind it, as they are non coders.

I wish we had some "test" of knowledge before people were allowed to make an account on this forum.

[Snowshow]

Again, if there's value in the system why all the bitcoin holders must run out of that system to benefit? Literally every bitcoin holder is proof that bitcoin system is worthless.

Because it is the same for every currency. You can never benefit from a currency if you do not trade it, it does not matter if there is some kind of value (like debt) stored in it or not. Or how can you benefit from holding a 5 dollar bill that you are not able to trade for something?

But I just showed you that traditional currency is debt and from debt people benefit when debt is paid by borrowers, so they benefit from within the currency system.

Let me now try again: if there's value in the bitcoin system why all the bitcoin holders must run out of that system to benefit?

No first answer my question: How can you benefit from the USD without exchanging it for goods?

That's a trick question. The real question is how you benefit within a particular system? When borrowers pay debt within the banking system of course they pay it through exchanging goods, services or labour with the USD holders. But that happens within the system. People benefit within the system they invested in. People invested their goods, services and labor in fiat currency system, and from within that system they are benefiting.

On the other hand, people invested their economic resources in the bitcoin system, however, in order to benefit they must exist that system. That's because there's nothing in the system. It's worthless. It's a scam. In every scam, you invest into it, but you benefit only if you exit out of it. If you're unable to exit, because the new investors don't want to enter into it anymore, then you're doomed.

[hZti]

That's a trick question. The real question is how you benefit within a particular system?
[/quote]

You always ask how you can benefit from BTC without exchanging it. If I ask how this should be possible for USD you says its a trick question and then tell me it is not possible. I think this settles this tread once and for all.

[Asiska02]

How ambiguous this is, and making no sense at the end. Do you really think humans with such population and verse knowledge on technology would invest in such technology if it is not real. Your opinion about the bitcoin technology is clear and we understand your plight. Moreover, you can’t mislead people to believe and follow what you think is right about this. Those who believe and invested in it know the true future of it and solemnly believe in its existence. Don’t  persuade people to believe in what you believe in rather give them a reason to do research on their own and come to conclusion whether to bank with you or not. That’s the true character of someone real with his objectives or innovations.

[Snowshow]

That's a trick question. The real question is how you benefit within a particular system?


You always ask how you can benefit from BTC without exchanging it. If I ask how this should be possible for USD you says its a trick question and then tell me it is not possible. I think this settles this tread once and for all.

I never said that. You just made that up. I am always asking this: how people can benefit without new buyers or investors. Borrowers are NOT new buyers or investors, but ones who have liability within the fiat currency system to settle the debt.


So, let me try once again: if there's value in the bitcoin system why all bitcoin holders must run out of that system to benefit?

[hZti]

When borrowers pay debt within the banking system of course they pay it through exchanging goods, services or labour with the USD holders.

Here is the quote where you said it.

[Snowshow]

When borrowers pay debt within the banking system of course they pay it through exchanging goods, services or labour with the USD holders.

Here is the quote where you said it.

And what that has to do with the question I am always asking: how people can benefit from Bitcoin without new buyers or investors?

What are you trying ti achieve with this sophistry?

[FatFork]

And what that has to do with the question I am always asking: how people can benefit from Bitcoin without new buyers or investors?

In other words, one can profit or benefit from bitcoin only by selling it to new investors for their utilizable resources. These resources can then be practically utilized to provide benefit to the owner. And that is exactly how Ponzi schemes work.

People profited or benefited from other people's actual things like dollars, goods or services, not from changed spreadsheet digits. No one can benefit from that. No one can benefit from Bitcoin.

Bitcoin holder can benefit from bitcoin only if someone voluntarily chooses to buy it.
<cut> And that's the definition of a ponzi-like scheme.

I will repeat: the whole point of this topic is the question how can you benefit from bitcoins without selling them to someone.

Now the question: can you benefit from the quantity next to your address without a new investor voluntarily accepting this quantity?

What are you trying ti achieve with this sophistry?

Snowshow / Antithesis / antikvark / fxsurfer, you've been doing this since 2017. So I would like to ask you the same question: what are you trying to achieve with this sophistry?

[JayJuanGee]

And what that has to do with the question I am always asking: how people can benefit from Bitcoin without new buyers or investors?

In other words, one can profit or benefit from bitcoin only by selling it to new investors for their utilizable resources. These resources can then be practically utilized to provide benefit to the owner. And that is exactly how Ponzi schemes work.

People profited or benefited from other people's actual things like dollars, goods or services, not from changed spreadsheet digits. No one can benefit from that. No one can benefit from Bitcoin.

Bitcoin holder can benefit from bitcoin only if someone voluntarily chooses to buy it.
<cut> And that's the definition of a ponzi-like scheme.

I will repeat: the whole point of this topic is the question how can you benefit from bitcoins without selling them to someone.

Now the question: can you benefit from the quantity next to your address without a new investor voluntarily accepting this quantity?

What are you trying ti achieve with this sophistry?

Snowshow / Antithesis / antikvark / fxsurfer, you've been doing this since 2017. So I would like to ask you the same question: what are you trying to achieve with this sophistry?

Surely, there seems to be some artificialities to the way the question is raised by either the same person or some dumbass talking point coordination center.

A decent lack of thought because we know that bitcoin buyers/accumulators have tended to benefit from being in bitcoin the longer that they have been in - even though in bitcoin's so far price history, there sometimes could be periods of up  3.5 years in which purchased BTC was not in profits.. yet for anyone with any level of sophistication, the data should not show us to get in and out of bitcoin but rather attempt to have a longer term plan and to accumulate bitcoin through the up and down periods, and in the longer run you are likely going to be in profits and if you continue to accumulate BTC, it is quite likely that you are not even going to have to wait 3.5 years to be in profits and to benefit from BTC.

Lot's of nonsense spread by bitcoin naysayers like Snowshow / Antithesis / antikvark / fxsurfer and perhaps some others on their naysaying team of one.. hahahahahaaha

So far in bitcoin's history, Bitcoin's price performance has brought actual tangible benefits that can be measured in the real world for those persons who had cashed out, and the argument would not even be that you have to cash out (beyond keeping your profits "on paper") so long as bitcoin at least maintains its value/price and perhaps continues to at least gravitate in the upwards direction with price in the coming years (even if there might continue to be some further downs along the way too).

One of the worst kinds of losing scenarios in bitcoin would be if the BTC price continues to gravitate downward in price and never recovers from that downward gravitation, and another kind of losing scenario would be some kind of sudden drop in price to bring bitcoin prices either down to zero or to real low values that causes great impacts on the confidence of BTC HODLers/accumulators.

In my glancing through this thread, I can see presumptions that bitcoin is either not sufficiently holding value or that bitcoin has value on paper only - but those kinds of presumptions are contrary to the actual facts (rather than the fantasy facts presented by bitcoin naysayers like Snowshow / Antithesis / antikvark / fxsurfer).

I am surely a subscriber to the theory that any myth has some real facts attached to it, so in that regard, there would need to be some weighing of which kinds of facts are more material and relevant than others, and for sure with bitcoin price is not the ONLY way to attempt to measure the extent to which some things in the material world actually back it... which we should be able to see and appreciate with the passage of time that bitcoin's network effects continue build.. There are a lot of ways that we could individually measure bitcoin's network effects to attempt to figure out if progress continues to be made.**

**Trace Mayer had been outlining bitcoin's seven network effects going back for several years

I am not going to go into any kind of detailed discussion of how each of the network effects are growing, and surely Snowshow / Antithesis / antikvark / fxsurfer have their rights to express their own fantasylandia opinions and conclusions to the extent that they do not end up getting banned for their disingenuineness ongoing misrepresentations.

[Snowshow]

And what that has to do with the question I am always asking: how people can benefit from Bitcoin without new buyers or investors?

In other words, one can profit or benefit from bitcoin only by selling it to new investors for their utilizable resources. These resources can then be practically utilized to provide benefit to the owner. And that is exactly how Ponzi schemes work.

People profited or benefited from other people's actual things like dollars, goods or services, not from changed spreadsheet digits. No one can benefit from that. No one can benefit from Bitcoin.

Bitcoin holder can benefit from bitcoin only if someone voluntarily chooses to buy it.
<cut> And that's the definition of a ponzi-like scheme.

I will repeat: the whole point of this topic is the question how can you benefit from bitcoins without selling them to someone.

Now the question: can you benefit from the quantity next to your address without a new investor voluntarily accepting this quantity?

What are you trying ti achieve with this sophistry?

Snowshow / Antithesis / antikvark / fxsurfer, you've been doing this since 2017. So I would like to ask you the same question: what are you trying to achieve with this sophistry?

So you're performing an investigation on forum users to achieve exactly what?

Surely, there seems to be some artificialities to the way the question is raised by either the same person or some dumbass talking point coordination center.

A decent lack of thought because we know that bitcoin buyers/accumulators have tended to benefit from being in bitcoin the longer that they have been in - even though in bitcoin's so far price history, there sometimes could be periods of up  3.5 years in which purchased BTC was not in profits.. yet for anyone with any level of sophistication, the data should not show us to get in and out of bitcoin but rather attempt to have a longer term plan and to accumulate bitcoin through the up and down periods, and in the longer run you are likely going to be in profits and if you continue to accumulate BTC, it is quite likely that you are not even going to have to wait 3.5 years to be in profits and to benefit from BTC.

Lot's of nonsense spread by bitcoin naysayers like Snowshow / Antithesis / antikvark / fxsurfer and perhaps some others on their naysaying team of one.. hahahahahaaha

So far in bitcoin's history, Bitcoin's price performance has brought actual tangible benefits that can be measured in the real world for those persons who had cashed out, and the argument would not even be that you have to cash out (beyond keeping your profits "on paper") so long as bitcoin at least maintains its value/price and perhaps continues to at least gravitate in the upwards direction with price in the coming years (even if there might continue to be some further downs along the way too).

One of the worst kinds of losing scenarios in bitcoin would be if the BTC price continues to gravitate downward in price and never recovers from that downward gravitation, and another kind of losing scenario would be some kind of sudden drop in price to bring bitcoin prices either down to zero or to real low values that causes great impacts on the confidence of BTC HODLers/accumulators.

In my glancing through this thread, I can see presumptions that bitcoin is either not sufficiently holding value or that bitcoin has value on paper only - but those kinds of presumptions are contrary to the actual facts (rather than the fantasy facts presented by bitcoin naysayers like Snowshow / Antithesis / antikvark / fxsurfer).

I am surely a subscriber to the theory that any myth has some real facts attached to it, so in that regard, there would need to be some weighing of which kinds of facts are more material and relevant than others, and for sure with bitcoin price is not the ONLY way to attempt to measure the extent to which some things in the material world actually back it... which we should be able to see and appreciate with the passage of time that bitcoin's network effects continue build.. There are a lot of ways that we could individually measure bitcoin's network effects to attempt to figure out if progress continues to be made.**

**Trace Mayer had been outlining bitcoin's seven network effects going back for several years

I am not going to go into any kind of detailed discussion of how each of the network effects are growing, and surely Snowshow / Antithesis / antikvark / fxsurfer have their rights to express their own fantasylandia opinions and conclusions to the extent that they do not end up getting banned for their disingenuineness ongoing misrepresentations.

You got it all wrong. I don't have presumptions that bitcoin is either not sufficiently holding value or that bitcoin has value on paper only.

All I am doing here is describing the fact that bitcoin doesn't exist, that is, that bitcoin is just a name, while the bitcoin system is a scam system.

You can prove this by asking people that invested in the bitcoin system if they are able to benefit from within the system. In all investment systems that are legit, the investors are able to benefit from within these systems. On the other hand, in all investment systems that are scam, people are not able to benefit in that way. That's obviously because there's no value, no economic resources in such systems.

As you can see, I am stating simple facts. You can preach all day long about bitcoin's value, but the very fact that not a single holder in the bitcoin system is able to benefit from within this system is an indisputable empirical proof that your preaching is without basis in reality. In the bitcoin system there's zero value. And bitcoin doesn't exist. The only purpose of the whole thing is to trick people out of their money.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

You got it all wrong. I don't have presumptions that bitcoin is either not sufficiently holding value or that bitcoin has value on paper only.

All I am doing here is describing the fact that bitcoin doesn't exist, that is, that bitcoin is just a name, while the bitcoin system is a scam system.

That sounds like a distinction without a difference. You try to make it seem that you are creatively genius, but in the end, we already know that a whole practice has been built around BTC and bitcoin has shown itself to be a paradigm shifting invention that causes various dynamics through out the world to have to be reframed...

You can ignore it and downplay it to your peril.. hopefully there are not too many people who follow such reality ignoring fantasy proposition.

You can prove this by asking people that invested in the bitcoin system if they are able to benefit from within the system. In all investment systems that are legit, the investors are able to benefit from within these systems. On the other hand, in all investment systems that are scam, people are not able to benefit in that way. That's obviously because there's no value, no economic resources in such systems.

First you are creating a false framework, and second, benefits from bitcoin can be measured in various ways within various bitcoin systems, and also the longer that bitcoin exists, the more that bitcoin touches upon a variety of systems that are somewhat outside of it (or historically had been outside of it).. So benefits from bitcoin can increasingly be measured through its various interactions with a larger and larger number of systems that may have had little to no connection with anything like bitcoin.

Maybe another aspect of your seemingly false framework is trying to too strictly categorize bitcoin, and surely bitcoin had a bit of an invention with the publication of the October 31, 2008 white paper and also with its underlying software that started running on January 3, 2009... but also, bitcoin was not invented out of thin air, but instead was built upon quite a few concepts that had been theorized, explored, attempted and built upon prior to bitcoin's being named in its 2008 white paper.   

Of course, there seems to be some innovative ways that already existing concepts were put together in bitcoin which causes some of that to have been potentially inventions or discoveries rather than prior work.  Another dynamic is that bitcoin has not remained stagnant since its 2008 announcement and its 2009 beginning to run, but there have been systems built within bitcoin and around bitcoin, proposals made, rejected and adopted, and various kinds of learning is ongoing - even if arguments can be made that bitcoin has been running since 2009 - it has tended to serve as an example of a project that runs like a plane in flight and continues to fly while being built upon.

Ignore, poo-poo and denigrate bitcoin to your peril - and surely perhaps even the various shitcoins, associated projects/promotionals, proposals (even the rejected ones) and even attack vehicles can serve as learning mechanisms for people considering bitcoin and ways to potentially learn, employ or build upon bitcoin.

As you can see, I am stating simple facts.

Well maybe your simple facts are too simple since they seem to be attempting to proclaim either a kind of reality that does not exist or some kind of aspect of the world that you would like to believe does not exist by your mere wishing it away (or proclaiming to ignore it while creating threads about what you are proclaiming to ignore).

You can preach all day long about bitcoin's value, but the very fact that not a single holder in the bitcoin system is able to benefit from within this system is an indisputable empirical proof that your preaching is without basis in reality.

Surely, you can label some of us (including yours truly) as preaching when the fact of the matter is more likely that we are attempting to engage in good faith descriptions of a world that we consider to be more accurate than your nonsenses.  Of course, not everyone acts in good faith when they engage in dialogues with others, and you seem to be falling into a kind of disingenuine bad faith and misleading camp rather than really identifying some kind of empirical truth that needs to be better fleshed out.

In the bitcoin system there's zero value. And bitcoin doesn't exist. The only purpose of the whole thing is to trick people out of their money.

The above set of ideas (to the extent that they could be considered as ideas rather than gobble-dee-gook inconsistent assertions?) hardly makes any sense.

For example, I am not much of a proponent of various shitcoins, but even I am going to concede that shitcoins have value, even if they are used to scam people.

Bitcoin is in another category.. but if you would like to lump bitcoin in with various kinds of shitcoins and then to consider the whole field as valueless, you would be both empirically and logically wrong on that front too.

[Snowshow]

[edited out]

You got it all wrong. I don't have presumptions that bitcoin is either not sufficiently holding value or that bitcoin has value on paper only.

All I am doing here is describing the fact that bitcoin doesn't exist, that is, that bitcoin is just a name, while the bitcoin system is a scam system.

That sounds like a distinction without a difference. You try to make it seem that you are creatively genius, but in the end, we already know that a whole practice has been built around BTC and bitcoin has shown itself to be a paradigm shifting invention that causes various dynamics through out the world to have to be reframed...

You can ignore it and downplay it to your peril.. hopefully there are not too many people who follow such reality ignoring fantasy proposition.

You can prove this by asking people that invested in the bitcoin system if they are able to benefit from within the system. In all investment systems that are legit, the investors are able to benefit from within these systems. On the other hand, in all investment systems that are scam, people are not able to benefit in that way. That's obviously because there's no value, no economic resources in such systems.

First you are creating a false framework, and second, benefits from bitcoin can be measured in various ways within various bitcoin systems, and also the longer that bitcoin exists, the more that bitcoin touches upon a variety of systems that are somewhat outside of it (or historically had been outside of it).. So benefits from bitcoin can increasingly be measured through its various interactions with a larger and larger number of systems that may have had little to no connection with anything like bitcoin.

Maybe another aspect of your seemingly false framework is trying to too strictly categorize bitcoin, and surely bitcoin had a bit of an invention with the publication of the October 31, 2008 white paper and also with its underlying software that started running on January 3, 2009... but also, bitcoin was not invented out of thin air, but instead was built upon quite a few concepts that had been theorized, explored, attempted and built upon prior to bitcoin's being named in its 2008 white paper.   

Of course, there seems to be some innovative ways that already existing concepts were put together in bitcoin which causes some of that to have been potentially inventions or discoveries rather than prior work.  Another dynamic is that bitcoin has not remained stagnant since its 2008 announcement and its 2009 beginning to run, but there have been systems built within bitcoin and around bitcoin, proposals made, rejected and adopted, and various kinds of learning is ongoing - even if arguments can be made that bitcoin has been running since 2009 - it has tended to serve as an example of a project that runs like a plane in flight and continues to fly while being built upon.

Ignore, poo-poo and denigrate bitcoin to your peril - and surely perhaps even the various shitcoins, associated projects/promotionals, proposals (even the rejected ones) and even attack vehicles can serve as learning mechanisms for people considering bitcoin and ways to potentially learn, employ or build upon bitcoin.

As you can see, I am stating simple facts.

Well maybe your simple facts are too simple since they seem to be attempting to proclaim either a kind of reality that does not exist or some kind of aspect of the world that you would like to believe does not exist by your mere wishing it away (or proclaiming to ignore it while creating threads about what you are proclaiming to ignore).

You can preach all day long about bitcoin's value, but the very fact that not a single holder in the bitcoin system is able to benefit from within this system is an indisputable empirical proof that your preaching is without basis in reality.

Surely, you can label some of us (including yours truly) as preaching when the fact of the matter is more likely that we are attempting to engage in good faith descriptions of a world that we consider to be more accurate than your nonsenses.  Of course, not everyone acts in good faith when they engage in dialogues with others, and you seem to be falling into a kind of disingenuine bad faith and misleading camp rather than really identifying some kind of empirical truth that needs to be better fleshed out.

In the bitcoin system there's zero value. And bitcoin doesn't exist. The only purpose of the whole thing is to trick people out of their money.

The above set of ideas (to the extent that they could be considered as ideas rather than gobble-dee-gook inconsistent assertions?) hardly makes any sense.

For example, I am not much of a proponent of various shitcoins, but even I am going to concede that shitcoins have value, even if they are used to scam people.

Bitcoin is in another category.. but if you would like to lump bitcoin in with various kinds of shitcoins and then to consider the whole field as valueless, you would be both empirically and logically wrong on that front too.

You're trying to deny facts with words. It's is not important what you or other people see in the bitcoin system or say about it. That's just perception and conepts - products of imagination. What is important is the fact that once people invested into this system, they can't get anything out of the system, except if someone enters into it.

Now, thell me, how's that possible if there's value in the system? Just try to think about it for a moment. All that electricity invested into the system, all the goods, services,  dollars... but literally nothing can be taken out without someone voluntarily entering into the system. So, how that possible if there's value in the system? Or to put it another way: where's the value that you see or preach about, except in your imagination?