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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency  (Read 4450642 times)
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January 02, 2015, 11:16:37 PM
 #18701

I would love to help but I bought in at about the peak and hold so little it would be a drop in the bucket.

but this Freemarket Idea is certainly the way to go. It is even better if it could be integrated into the gui wallet to be released. This should be a consideration from inception so as to make integration seamless from the getgo.

I certainly wouldn't support this, and if the rest of the core team did I would probably leave the core team. Privacy is a design component of Monero there for numerous other reasons than to break laws, just as it is for Tor. OpenBazaar is an experiment on top of the Bitcoin protocol, and if it becomes the de facto world standard for illegal drug marketplaces I certainly wouldn't want such a thing intertwined with Monero on any level.

I don't understand you. Are you saying private money is okay but private trading is not? How is a decentralized marketplace any less legitimate?

For reasons of personal safety, the core devs must uncategorically eschew any support for empowering the peasantry to enjoy private/voluntary/mutually beneficial transactions.

Take their cover-their-ass statements with an accordingly sized grain of plausibly deniable salt.

And put me down for 500 XMR, to be paid out of escrow upon delivery of FreeMarket beta!   Cool

Agree.

Also, please put me down for the 150 that I had pledged for the AMD open source miner.

I am withdrawing the 150 I had pledged for that, due to apparent total lack of interest, and putting it towards this.

Wind picked up: F4BC1F4BC0A2A1C4

banditryandloot goin2mars kbm keyboard-mash theusualstuff

probably a few more that don't matter for much.
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January 02, 2015, 11:24:47 PM
 #18702

I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

Certainly I can't control how anyone uses it, but I would not personally support such endeavours.

Has this account been hijacked?

So what your saying is you don't support fiat? It is used daily to murder rape and pillage.

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January 02, 2015, 11:32:38 PM
 #18703

I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

Certainly I can't control how anyone uses it, but I would not personally support such endeavours.

Has this account been hijacked?

So what your saying is you don't support fiat? It is used daily to murder rape and pillage.

How is this being made into an issue?

People are literally asking the developers to put into place a function in the wallet that will 100% be used to rape, murder, pillage, sell drugs, assassinate, pay for theft, etc, and this is the point that is being resisted currently.

The fact that you say, oh well we're just giving them an avenue to conduct transactions privately on a neutral ground doesn't change this fact. Sure, private transactions are great, but I wouldn't want that kinda shit on my computer.

All of this can be coded to use Monero, and none of it has to be inside the wallet software that the developers provide.

Let them provide the multisig, unadulterated wallet software, eliminate security flaws and refine the core functionality of the software .. but I wouldn't expect them to start picking and choosing apps to put into it.

I wouldn't want an ebay bank account ... why would I?


Wind picked up: F4BC1F4BC0A2A1C4

banditryandloot goin2mars kbm keyboard-mash theusualstuff

probably a few more that don't matter for much.
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January 02, 2015, 11:36:42 PM
 #18704

I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

Certainly I can't control how anyone uses it, but I would not personally support such endeavours.

Has this account been hijacked?

So what your saying is you don't support fiat? It is used daily to murder rape and pillage.

How is this being made into an issue?

People are literally asking the developers to put into place a function in the wallet that will 100% be used to rape, murder, pillage, sell drugs, assassinate, pay for theft, etc, and this is the point that is being resisted currently.

The fact that you say, oh well we're just giving them an avenue to conduct transactions privately on a neutral ground doesn't change this fact. Sure, private transactions are great, but I wouldn't want that kinda shit on my computer.

All of this can be coded to use Monero, and none of it has to be inside the wallet software that the developers provide.

Let them provide the multisig, unadulterated wallet software, eliminate security flaws and refine the core functionality of the software .. but I wouldn't expect them to start picking and choosing apps to put into it.

I wouldn't want an ebay bank account ... why would I?



Untrue, Just because something can be used for evil does not mean it will be and can't be used for good. We are not the Moral POLICE. I am of the opinion that I should be able to buy a joint for my dieing mother, I'm sorry you feel I don't have that right.

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January 02, 2015, 11:53:21 PM
 #18705

I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

Certainly I can't control how anyone uses it, but I would not personally support such endeavours.

Has this account been hijacked?

So what your saying is you don't support fiat? It is used daily to murder rape and pillage.

How is this being made into an issue?

People are literally asking the developers to put into place a function in the wallet that will 100% be used to rape, murder, pillage, sell drugs, assassinate, pay for theft, etc, and this is the point that is being resisted currently.

The fact that you say, oh well we're just giving them an avenue to conduct transactions privately on a neutral ground doesn't change this fact. Sure, private transactions are great, but I wouldn't want that kinda shit on my computer.

All of this can be coded to use Monero, and none of it has to be inside the wallet software that the developers provide.

Let them provide the multisig, unadulterated wallet software, eliminate security flaws and refine the core functionality of the software .. but I wouldn't expect them to start picking and choosing apps to put into it.

I wouldn't want an ebay bank account ... why would I?



just to clarify, we are talking about the "secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency" as mentioned in the title for the past 9 months, right?
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January 02, 2015, 11:57:56 PM
 #18706

It would be an insane idea to incorporate such functionality (Dark Market Payments Integration) directly into the Monero wallet.  It would forever taint the image.  Such functionality is not needed in the least for Monero to be used by Dark Market folks.


I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

Certainly I can't control how anyone uses it, but I would not personally support such endeavours.

Has this account been hijacked?

So what your saying is you don't support fiat? It is used daily to murder rape and pillage.

How is this being made into an issue?

People are literally asking the developers to put into place a function in the wallet that will 100% be used to rape, murder, pillage, sell drugs, assassinate, pay for theft, etc, and this is the point that is being resisted currently.

The fact that you say, oh well we're just giving them an avenue to conduct transactions privately on a neutral ground doesn't change this fact. Sure, private transactions are great, but I wouldn't want that kinda shit on my computer.

All of this can be coded to use Monero, and none of it has to be inside the wallet software that the developers provide.

Let them provide the multisig, unadulterated wallet software, eliminate security flaws and refine the core functionality of the software .. but I wouldn't expect them to start picking and choosing apps to put into it.

I wouldn't want an ebay bank account ... why would I?


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January 03, 2015, 12:26:02 AM
 #18707

actually, everything can get discussed ... we will see in process
one of the thing I just though about, I maybe get a helper, who contacted me. should I suggests him to work for free and get earning some day...

I don't call everyone to trust me, I offered various solutions

Only accepting 100% prepayment/refusing escrow are red flags for many of us, and requires everyone to trust you completely.

Luckily, most of the pledges so far are unconditional so you can prepay your helper and cover other expenses.  The escrowed funds are a bonus and possible source of profit, which is a standard, reasonable risk-sharing arrangement used by many contractors.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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January 03, 2015, 12:26:58 AM
 #18708

Untrue, Just because something can be used for evil does not mean it will be and can't be used for good. We are not the Moral POLICE. I am of the opinion that I should be able to buy a joint for my dieing mother, I'm sorry you feel I don't have that right.

Sorry, just a difference of opinion.

IMO it's not so much a moral issue as much as it is going to be a hierarchy dictating which decentralized marketplaces I'm allowed to use and which ones I'm not...

Do you see what I'm trying to say here?

I don't mind at all that people use the currency for whatever they want to use it for (I would; however, be just as disturbed that people use Monero to pay for illicit activities as I would be if someone were to use fiat/cash for the same), but asking someone to shove a marketplace in my face when I may want to use another, may never want to use it, may want to make my own, or may just consider Monero solely a store of value, or whatever..

We're asking a group of elected officials to tell us what's right, and put it in software we use, rather than leave the software they provide as bare essentials as possible, and painting our own picture.

I understand that the marketplace may be used for both good and evil, but it wasn't from the earth that I demanded my neighbor trade my stones for wood, and it wasn't from my god or king that I demanded the merchant trade me gold for diamonds.

I get that we're not the police, but placing a decentralized marketplace right in the software, rather than having two complimentary software packages, limits future options.

What happens when the world used openbazaar only and we're stuck on freebazaar? I've already posted what I'd like to donate, so I'm definitely in favor of it existing, but having it as an integral part of this is something I don't really agree with.

Who are we to dictate that people must trade on a marketplace we tell them is the best decentralized marketplace? Isn't that a little contradictory?

just to clarify, we are talking about the "secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency" as mentioned in the title for the past 9 months, right?

Yeah, sorry if the response seemed pretty limited. Please let me know if the above sentences help clarify my position?

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January 03, 2015, 12:28:36 AM
 #18709

I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

Certainly I can't control how anyone uses it, but I would not personally support such endeavours.

Has this account been hijacked?

So what your saying is you don't support fiat? It is used daily to murder rape and pillage.

How is this being made into an issue?

I agree that including open/free bazaar features in the official wallet is not a good move. I also don't expect the core team to condone illicit activity in any way.

What alarms me is TacoTime's hasty objection to decentralized marketplaces, but not to the decentralized private currency he's currently working on.

He then throws out the word 'intimidation' in a statement that alone could be interpreted as threatening or intimidating. It makes me wonder if he himself is under some kind of duress.

If it were anyone else, I'd assume his comments were made in bad judgement. But this is a person who seems to choose his words very carefully.
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January 03, 2015, 12:33:50 AM
 #18710

I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

Certainly I can't control how anyone uses it, but I would not personally support such endeavours.

Has this account been hijacked?

So what your saying is you don't support fiat? It is used daily to murder rape and pillage.

How is this being made into an issue?

I agree that including open/free bazaar features in the official wallet is not a good move. I also don't expect the core team to condone illicit activity in any way.

And I contend that building a p2p marketplace is not "condoning illicit activity", it is trying to build a better, more efficient way to conduct trade.

But I also think it is rather absurd to think about the Monero core team building any kind of marketplace in the forseeable future. That is so far outside of our charter it isn't worth discussing. We're focused on Monero the distributed cryptocurrency.

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January 03, 2015, 12:39:05 AM
 #18711

To make my point as clear as possible, openBazaar devs could easily make the same exact statement about Monero as TacoTime did about openBazaar:

Quote from: TacoTime
I certainly wouldn't support this, and if the rest of the core team did I would probably leave the core team. Privacy is a design component of Monero there for numerous other reasons than to break laws, just as it is for Tor. OpenBazaar is an experiment on top of the Bitcoin protocol, and if it becomes the de facto world standard for illegal drug marketplaces I certainly wouldn't want such a thing intertwined with Monero on any level.

See what I mean?

Quote from: nobody
If Monero becomes the de facto world standard for illegal drug trade I certainly wouldn't want such a thing intertwined with openBazaar on any level.
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January 03, 2015, 12:46:17 AM
 #18712

Monero*--a decentralized anonymous currency.

Freebazaar*--a decentralized market for Monero that IS NOT part of the official GUI.


*The devs are not responsible for the use of this technology for good or evil--especially since one man's evil is another man's good and vice versa depending on where, when and how you live.

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January 03, 2015, 12:54:54 AM
 #18713

I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

Certainly I can't control how anyone uses it, but I would not personally support such endeavours.

Has this account been hijacked?

So what your saying is you don't support fiat? It is used daily to murder rape and pillage.

How is this being made into an issue?

I agree that including open/free bazaar features in the official wallet is not a good move. I also don't expect the core team to condone illicit activity in any way.

What alarms me is TacoTime's hasty objection to decentralized marketplaces, but not to the decentralized private currency he's currently working on.

He then throws out the word 'intimidation' in a statement that alone could be interpreted as threatening or intimidating. It makes me wonder if he himself is under some kind of duress.

If it were anyone else, I'd assume his comments were made in bad judgement. But this is a person who seems to choose his words very carefully.

My understanding from his response was a total rejection to placing the decentralized marketplace in the upcoming gui wallet, a slight objection toward using Monero in a decentralized marketplace due to lack of academic understanding and audit, and a large objection toward using Monero to purchase illegal goods on a decentralzied marketplace due to the illegality.

I would be very doubtful of duress, the sentence included "computational attacks or by intimidation", which .. well let's be honest here it wouldn't take much. We've got some publicly traceable developers, a protocol with no IP obfuscation, full disclosure for the most part over open channels on IRC and this board ... intimidation wouldn't be hard if it were to assume a role as the goto currency for illicit activity at this point in time. It's just not a big project yet. And crypto has no guns.

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January 03, 2015, 12:56:41 AM
 #18714

To make my point as clear as possible, openBazaar devs could easily make the same exact statement about Monero as TacoTime did about openBazaar:

Quote from: TacoTime
I certainly wouldn't support this, and if the rest of the core team did I would probably leave the core team. Privacy is a design component of Monero there for numerous other reasons than to break laws, just as it is for Tor. OpenBazaar is an experiment on top of the Bitcoin protocol, and if it becomes the de facto world standard for illegal drug marketplaces I certainly wouldn't want such a thing intertwined with Monero on any level.

See what I mean?

Quote from: nobody
If Monero becomes the de facto world standard for illegal drug trade I certainly wouldn't want such a thing intertwined with openBazaar on any level.

Hmm, ty for ideas.

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January 03, 2015, 01:36:17 AM
 #18715

Seems silly to chime in in this discussion amongst these 4-5 gold coin peeps.

But I agree with the sentiment that the Monero GUI wallet should not contain an integrated marketplace. I don't do my shopping at the bank. And I don't do my banking at a store.

Of course, obviously, this is the world of open source development we're talking about, so its not like somebody can stop the development of a marketplace + wallet app down the road.

Also in reference to some of the discussed points, I had an interesting discussion with one of my in-laws over the new years holiday. This is a guy who teaches economics to college students. He essentially only knows that bitcoin exists - nothing of their underlying technology, etc, or the fact that other cryptocurrencies exist.

The one thing he commented on - the ONE thing - was that bitcoin won't function as a currency because it can be traced.

Again - this is a guy who professes economics to students, has only the most fleeting understanding or knowledge of bitcoin, and the one thing he knows is that it can be traced, and this is enough for him to know that it won't be a great currency.

< Track your bitcoins! > < Track them again! > <<< [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qomqt/what_a_landmark_legal_case_from_mid1700s_scotland/] What is fungibility? >>> 46P88uZ4edEgsk7iKQUGu2FUDYcdHm2HtLFiGLp1inG4e4f9PTb4mbHWYWFZGYUeQidJ8hFym2WUmWc p34X8HHmFS2LXJkf <<< Free subdomains at moneroworld.com!! >>> <<< If you don't want to run your own node, point your wallet to node.moneroworld.com, and get connected to a random node! @@@@ FUCK ALL THE PROFITEERS! PROOF OF WORK OR ITS A SCAM !!! @@@@
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January 03, 2015, 01:39:58 AM
 #18716

actually, everything can get discussed ... we will see in process
one of the thing I just though about, I maybe get a helper, who contacted me. should I suggests him to work for free and get earning some day...

I don't call everyone to trust me, I offered various solutions

Only accepting 100% prepayment/refusing escrow are red flags for many of us, and requires everyone to trust you completely.

Luckily, most of the pledges so far are unconditional so you can prepay your helper and cover other expenses.  The escrowed funds are a bonus and possible source of profit, which is a standard, reasonable risk-sharing arrangement used by many contractors.

anonymous crypto area is the ground of distrust for every party..
what conditions do you suggest for escrow, who will decide whether the work corresponds with donator's expectation and vision? the issue is that is not an ordered project with a well-defined detailed technical specifications. no fixed conception of how it should look like, in which way can be realized... many unknown variables. there is NO "" exactly plan with details on exactly what and when something will be completed ""
this is rather a creative project, I choose in process the most optimal in my opinion details, but that could be many different opinions disagreed with each other..

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January 03, 2015, 01:54:07 AM
 #18717

Seems silly to chime in in this discussion amongst these 4-5 gold coin peeps.

But I agree with the sentiment that the Monero GUI wallet should not contain an integrated marketplace. I don't do my shopping at the bank. And I don't do my banking at a store.

Of course, obviously, this is the world of open source development we're talking about, so its not like somebody can stop the development of a marketplace + wallet app down the road.

Also in reference to some of the discussed points, I had an interesting discussion with one of my in-laws over the new years holiday. This is a guy who teaches economics to college students. He essentially only knows that bitcoin exists - nothing of their underlying technology, etc, or the fact that other cryptocurrencies exist.

The one thing he commented on - the ONE thing - was that bitcoin won't function as a currency because it can be traced.

Again - this is a guy who professes economics to students, has only the most fleeting understanding or knowledge of bitcoin, and the one thing he knows is that it can be traced, and this is enough for him to know that it won't be a great currency.

Some can be traced - the ones where addresses are reused.  It's all up to the user and his address habits.

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January 03, 2015, 02:03:22 AM
 #18718

I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

Certainly I can't control how anyone uses it, but I would not personally support such endeavours.

Has this account been hijacked?

So what your saying is you don't support fiat? It is used daily to murder rape and pillage.

How is this being made into an issue?

I agree that including open/free bazaar features in the official wallet is not a good move. I also don't expect the core team to condone illicit activity in any way.

What alarms me is TacoTime's hasty objection to decentralized marketplaces, but not to the decentralized private currency he's currently working on.

He then throws out the word 'intimidation' in a statement that alone could be interpreted as threatening or intimidating. It makes me wonder if he himself is under some kind of duress.

If it were anyone else, I'd assume his comments were made in bad judgement. But this is a person who seems to choose his words very carefully.

I agree with that objection that Monero should stay away from direct contact with potentially illegal markets, for the sake of the coin we should never talk about condoning its use here, but if Monero is used there is nothing we can do about that.

But thats not what I want to talk about, its about Tacotime, he is cozy with Bitcoin developers, we all know they dislike Monero because its a threat to Bitcoin, he will probably leave Monero one day to work in a sidechain with ring signature on Bitcoin, mark my words, it also will in my opinion fail but thats also conjecture.

Just be glad the Monero github is under a public and more trustworthy person.
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January 03, 2015, 02:08:49 AM
 #18719

I agree with you insofar as my own moral foundation stands.  But a core value for me is freedom, and I would not assume to dictate to the users or markets how they use a cryptocurrency.

I rather see the neutral aspect of Monero being a digital cash for transactions which benefit from privacy.  It is a use case agnostic position.  

Certainly I can't control how anyone uses it, but I would not personally support such endeavours.

Has this account been hijacked?

So what your saying is you don't support fiat? It is used daily to murder rape and pillage.

How is this being made into an issue?

I agree that including open/free bazaar features in the official wallet is not a good move. I also don't expect the core team to condone illicit activity in any way.

What alarms me is TacoTime's hasty objection to decentralized marketplaces, but not to the decentralized private currency he's currently working on.

He then throws out the word 'intimidation' in a statement that alone could be interpreted as threatening or intimidating. It makes me wonder if he himself is under some kind of duress.

If it were anyone else, I'd assume his comments were made in bad judgement. But this is a person who seems to choose his words very carefully.

I agree with that objection that Monero should stay away from direct contact with potentially illegal markets, for the sake of the coin we should never talk about condoning its use here, but if Monero is used there is nothing we can do about that.

But thats not what I want to talk about, its about Tacotime, he is cozy with Bitcoin developers, we all know they dislike Monero because its a threat to Bitcoin, he will probably leave Monero one day to work in a sidechain with ring signature on Bitcoin, mark my words, it also will in my opinion fail but thats also conjecture.

Just be glad the Monero github is under a public and more trustworthy person.

The sidechain with ring signatures is called XMR.

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January 03, 2015, 02:19:40 AM
 #18720

Seems silly to chime in in this discussion amongst these 4-5 gold coin peeps.

But I agree with the sentiment that the Monero GUI wallet should not contain an integrated marketplace. I don't do my shopping at the bank. And I don't do my banking at a store.

Of course, obviously, this is the world of open source development we're talking about, so its not like somebody can stop the development of a marketplace + wallet app down the road.

Also in reference to some of the discussed points, I had an interesting discussion with one of my in-laws over the new years holiday. This is a guy who teaches economics to college students. He essentially only knows that bitcoin exists - nothing of their underlying technology, etc, or the fact that other cryptocurrencies exist.

The one thing he commented on - the ONE thing - was that bitcoin won't function as a currency because it can be traced.

Again - this is a guy who professes economics to students, has only the most fleeting understanding or knowledge of bitcoin, and the one thing he knows is that it can be traced, and this is enough for him to know that it won't be a great currency.

Some can be traced - the ones where addresses are reused.  It's all up to the user and his address habits.

This a common misconception. Avoiding address reuse is a good practice that improves your privacy by reduced linking (somewhat similar to stealth addresses) but does not prevent tracing. Every coin still has a history that can be traced back to the coinbase where it was created. To get around that you need some kind of mixing (either centralized or decentralized), but that won't be very effective as long as mixing is an unusual thing that is only done when people want to mix because the anonymity set will be small.
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