[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[papa_lazzarou]

xmrmonero.com

I think moneroclub would be a nice addition to the main page slideshow. As if suggesting "you can buy it here [monero club] and you can track your account here [mymonero]".

Can we add/edit content?

[wpalczynski]

If there are fairly simple instructions on how to test the DB and report bugs or issues I have a couple of spare computers I could use to assist with testing (Windows 8.1).  Please provide a link if such instructions exist.

So i havnt really been keeping up with whats going on here. Do we have databases worked out? Do we finally have it so that monero isnt loading the blockchain into ram? Do we have a dev supported gui? In general whats changed?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583449.msg10062838#msg10062838

I can tell you first hand that the daemon is working with the database. On my 2 gig computer, it uses 800 megs of ram. So far I've run it for multiple 8 hour runs on the main net. I'm currently running it continuously - gonna see how long it goes.

I highly recommend that anyone who can should test drive the database.

I forget if it was explicitly stated somewhere, but in my mind, the logic was - we need to get the blockchain out of memory before releasing the GUI... so, the sooner the database build is released, the sooner the GUI happens.... so if you really wanna see things happen, you're gonna have to beta test the database build! At some point I can provide noob-approved instructions for doing this, and I'm thinking about offering XMR rewards for bug reports. I don't have much XMR to reward with, and I don't want to be taken to the bank with false bug reports, so we'll have to figure out a method.

[equipoise]

Code:

5 XMR
?->?

But

Code:

? XMR
?->?

Because even the amount of XMR sent is not known.

Good point, I will try and get around to updating gif this weekend. I've been meaning to anyway, but that will be some extra impetus.

You know the maximum amount sent, right?

[Eugen123]

This great to see.

A few suggestions: multiple websites/forums at various states of development and with different styles really confuses newcomers and makes the project seem a bit disorganised (which is why people default back to bitcointalk).  This site should make clear immediately what it is (e.g. title/subtitle indicating this is the MEW website), and should have clear links to the official website/forum on the front page.  KISS suggest to me highlight/focus on things missing elsewhere: e.g. a place for the FAQ, a nice, regular core blog highlighting news, development reports, the various infographics going around, and other things.  Have the blog on the front page to keep things fresh.  Have a cryptokingdom tab as that seems a core aspect of MEW.

A lot of people (rightly) complain about the lack of marketing for Monero. There are two reasons for that. The first is that marketing an alpha software is a surefire way to disappoint a lot of people who won’t give it a second chance later on. The second is that it is not the job of the core team, which takes care of the technical development. This is the job of MEW (what is MEW?).

Last weeks, I've been working with a restricted team (namely, ArticMine and lyth0s) on a website for MEW. Contrary to the monero.cc website which is, in both its current and future iterations, a website devoted to the technology and everything the core team is working on, this new website will be devoted to the non technical aspects: improving visibility and fostering economy (this will include crypto-kingdom). As a reminder, I am a member of both the core team and the MEW.

My philosophy (most of it is from The Cathedral and the Bazaar and Wikipedia):

DONE - release early, release often;
       done is better than perfect;
       JFDI, Just Fuckin Do It (© jaybeeuk).
KISS - keep it simple, it'll get complex by itself soon enough;
       when something is done, check how to achieve the same thing, but simpler;
       perfection is when there is nothing more to take away.
PLAN - have some vision, know where you're going;
       this may mean doing "nothing" for days - it's fine.
NICE - assume good faith.
HELP - learn to delegate and to do it well;
       doing everything yourself is a fail, not a success;
       avoid the Not-Invented-Here™ syndrome.
QUIT - You’ll eventually quit so look in advance for competent successor.

So here it is, a Drupal-powered website which is multilingual, mobile-ready, multi-user and has a static part, a forum, a wiki, one blog per user, a CRM and probably more as time goes on. My job now (I am a plant) is much less to add more stuff and much more to allow empowerment: seize this website as yours. I'll be here to help you, but I'd like this website to be driven by the community - irrespective of whether or not you are MEW members - although MEW will ultimately have some advantages, of course.

No milestone, no roadmap, no bullshit:

xmrmonero.com

[papa_lazzarou]

If there are fairly simple instructions on how to test the DB and report bugs or issues I have a couple of spare computers I could use to assist with testing (Windows 8.1).  Please provide a link if such instructions exist.

There are instructions, but I'm afraid they are Linux only.

[wpalczynski]

Could someone please make instructions for testing the DB on Windows? 

If there are fairly simple instructions on how to test the DB and report bugs or issues I have a couple of spare computers I could use to assist with testing (Windows 8.1).  Please provide a link if such instructions exist.

There are instructions, but I'm afraid they are Linux only.

[GingerAle]

Could someone please make instructions for testing the DB on Windows? 

If there are fairly simple instructions on how to test the DB and report bugs or issues I have a couple of spare computers I could use to assist with testing (Windows 8.1).  Please provide a link if such instructions exist.

There are instructions, but I'm afraid they are Linux only.

I plan on working these out tonight..... (US eastern here... currently at my day job)

[equipoise]

Code:

5 XMR
?->?

But

Code:

? XMR
?->?

Because even the amount of XMR sent is not known.

Good point, I will try and get around to updating gif this weekend. I've been meaning to anyway, but that will be some extra impetus.

You know the maximum amount sent, right?

You may also know the minimum amount (or the exact amount) for some of the transactions. For example in this recent transaction it seems the amount sent is between 247 XMR and 297.40 XMR, so:

Code:

Between X and Y XMR sent (where X may be equal to Y)
?->?

This may lead to more questions then answers in this short video presentation (and even could mislead people). Maybe it should stay the way it's now.

[binaryFate]

Code:

5 XMR
?->?

But

Code:

? XMR
?->?

Because even the amount of XMR sent is not known.

Good point, I will try and get around to updating gif this weekend. I've been meaning to anyway, but that will be some extra impetus.

You know the maximum amount sent, right?

You may also know the minimum amount (or the exact amount) for some of the transactions. For example in this recent transaction it seems the amount sent is between 247 XMR and 297.40 XMR, so:

Code:

Between X and Y XMR sent (where X may be equal to Y)
?->?

This may lead to more questions then answers in this short video presentation (and even could mislead people). Maybe it should stay the way it's now.

I would put a question mark. In more details, yes it is bounded in a range, but a question mark is still good enough to get the point.

[smooth]

You may also know the minimum amount (or the exact amount) for some of the transactions. For example in this recent transaction it seems the amount sent is between 247 XMR and 297.40 XMR, so:

Code:

Between X and Y XMR sent (where X may be equal to Y)
?->?

This may lead to more questions then answers in this short video presentation (and even could mislead people). Maybe it should stay the way it's now.

Not entirely. I haven't looked carefully at the rules used by simplewallet but other wallets may use different rules, and there is nothing to prevent a wallet from deliberately adding extra inputs that aren't needed, increasing the amount of change (and further obscuring the amount of the payment). So for example, that 200 output could be change and not part of the amount being paid at all.

This could even be useful aside from privacy, as a way of consolidating outputs for lower transaction fees. Consider two examples:

1. The transaction 5.01 kb in its original construction. If the wallet adds another few inputs, bringing it up to 5.99 kb, so no added fee but an opportunity to combine some small outputs into one larger one (reducing the cost of future payments).

2. The change would be 1999, requiring three outputs. By adding an extra 1 to the inputs, the change is now 2000, which requires only one output, making both the current payment, and potentially future payments, smaller and cheaper.

[wpalczynski]

Thanks!

Could someone please make instructions for testing the DB on Windows? 

If there are fairly simple instructions on how to test the DB and report bugs or issues I have a couple of spare computers I could use to assist with testing (Windows 8.1).  Please provide a link if such instructions exist.

There are instructions, but I'm afraid they are Linux only.

I plan on working these out tonight..... (US eastern here... currently at my day job)

[David Latapie]

moneroeconomy.com

I think moneroclub would be a nice addition to the main page slideshow. As if suggesting "you can buy it here [monero club] and you can track your account here [mymonero]".

Can we add/edit content?

Good idea. For the moment, the slider is not "drupal-native" (AFAIK), so it has to be edited by hand, FTP-side. lyth0s could help on this. I would like it to be editable straigtht from Drupal in the future - it might require changing it completely. There are a lot of carousel modules for Drupal, but I did not investigated them. Again, either lyth0s (webdesigne for the site) or someone conversant in Drupal would be of use.

For the rest (i.e. non-carousel-content), yes, you can edit. You must first create an account. After that, you shall normally be able to create blog entries that will appear in the blog tab (https://moneroeconomy.com/blog - for reason unknown, I cannot rename it https://moneroeconomy.com/blogs, with an "s"). Later, I could give access to other contents, but I'd like to start slowly. Blog entries are for personal considerations. Ultimately, I plan to make them available only for MEW members once I created a MEW role (you already are a MEW member so everything is fine).

I purposefully do not give you more instructions, to check how easy/hard it is to create an account and start blogging with no information.
I created a new tab, "News", which will announce latest news. It will be in-between regular pages like about us, contact, what is Monero... and informal texts like blogs. I started by announcing Jojatetok's newest release.

https://moneroeconomy.com/news

This great to see.

A few suggestions: multiple websites/forums at various states of development and with different styles really confuses newcomers and makes the project seem a bit disorganised (which is why people default back to bitcointalk).  This site should make clear immediately what it is (e.g. title/subtitle indicating this is the MEW website), and should have clear links to the official website/forum on the front page.  KISS suggest to me highlight/focus on things missing elsewhere: e.g. a place for the FAQ, a nice, regular core blog highlighting news, development reports, the various infographics going around, and other things.  Have the blog on the front page to keep things fresh.  Have a cryptokingdom tab as that seems a core aspect of MEW.

I update the site information
Title: Monero Economy Workgroup
Slogan: Fostering Monero adoption
Both are open to change, just say and we'll see.

I'd like to have a translation slogan in Dutch, German and Spanish (but only once any potential about the slogan is addressed)
For a link to the official forum, I ran out of inspiration. One possibility is to have a clickable link on the slogan (which I did), but it goes against the principle of least astonishment. There will eventually by an introductory page linking to the official website, but it won't appear on main page (well, it coul, but it would not be highly visible, since it will be in a page, not as a link). Last possibility would a tab to the official forum, but I really don't like this. Tabs are for navigating inside a website, not outside of it.

The FAQ is already here, check the menu bar
Regular blog with news is addressed now, this is the "news" (I understand that the "blogs" menu bar might confuse people, since blogs are users' (or devs') blogs, not official news, maybe I should find another term. Monday Monero Missives will be announced (and duplicated) here too.
Cryptokingdom will have a page or even a section, yet to see.
Infographics, block explorer... I think a "reference" section would make sense.

Instructions for testing the DB shall appear on the website. Both for Linux and GingerAle ones. Ginger Ale, you could even post them as a blog entry.

Thank you for all these constructive suggestions, it proves there is a demand! Don't forget you can participate yourself!

I would put a question mark. In more details, yes it is bounded in a range, but a question mark is still good enough to get the point.

Exactly. The point of the presentation is to 1) quickly 2) give an idea.

[equipoise]

You may also know the minimum amount (or the exact amount) for some of the transactions. For example in this recent transaction it seems the amount sent is between 247 XMR and 297.40 XMR, so:

Code:

Between X and Y XMR sent (where X may be equal to Y)
?->?

This may lead to more questions then answers in this short video presentation (and even could mislead people). Maybe it should stay the way it's now.

Not entirely. I haven't looked carefully at the rules used by simplewallet but other wallets may use different rules, and there is nothing to prevent a wallet from deliberately adding extra inputs that aren't needed, increasing the amount of change (and further obscuring the amount of the payment). So for example, that 200 output could be change and not part of the amount being paid at all.

This could even be useful aside from privacy, as a way of consolidating outputs for lower transaction fees. Consider two examples:

1. The transaction 5.01 kb in its original construction. If the wallet adds another few inputs, bringing it up to 5.99 kb, so no added fee but an opportunity to combine some small outputs into one larger one (reducing the cost of future payments).

2. The change would be 1999, requiring three outputs. By adding an extra 1 to the inputs, the change is now 2000, which requires only one output, making both the current payment, and potentially future payments, smaller and cheaper.

It would be great to have such functionality implemented in a wise way. I may be wrong, but such a transaction reveals the minimum wallet amount of the sender at the time of the transaction. The receiver would know that you had at least 2000 XMR few minutes ago. You could manually send the exact amount + fee to another wallet and then send it to the receiver, but it would be even better if no manual user intervention is needed at some future time. Thank you for the answer.

[btell]

Thus it is not a crowdfunding. It is a donation.
We asked many times (dev fund, hall of fame, MEW) and none of them worked. Maybe it was not announce the right way (like what you propose), but I still doubt it. That being said, why not try again, especially now that I have released xmrmonero.com

IMHO That is classic 'Selection Bias', http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias.

People who have time and/or desire to read this forum periodically... they have just no enouh money to donate!
Also, Monero specifics such as Cryptonote technology is too sophisticated to be understood by masses.

But Monero benefits are understandable clearly ('total anonymity with mathematical proof').

One way to find investors is just 'scan all the friends of friends', being known for any two people un-dated there does exist a people chain of length not more 6, that connects that people via intermediate friends.

Who knows... May be via real life, or twitter, facebook, etc. you can achieve Elon Mask or Bill Gates, etc.?

Or you will find 10000 people willing to pay $.0.2 per day? (10000*$0.2=$2000 per day is a typical price of full time working day of dev team with some 5-7 members).

Summarizing that all, imagine ways that run outside this forum's plane!

[smooth]

I may be wrong, but such a transaction reveals the minimum wallet amount of the sender at the time of the transaction.

This is a good point, it does reveal something about the minimum amount held by the sender, and that minimum increases if more inputs+outputs are added.

Interesting how we are still figuring out some of the finer points of the cryptonote protocol after all these months!

[aminorex]

Idea:  Development bond, denominated in XMR, sold for BTC, priced 100% over market at offer date.  Development bond pays 8% annual interest in XMR in quarterly coupons, 5 year maturity.  Seller hedges by buying enough XMR to redeem all bonds at maturity.  The result is that ~51% of the bond fix premium funds development, and 49% becomes an XMR profit to the buyer.

Buyer motivation:  Increase XMR holdings, while contributing to the appreciation of the value of XMR as a commodity.
Seller motivation:  Fund development with a fair offer.

[Drhiggins]

Windows will be the most important platform to get right for the DB and GUI release. I am happy to test on Windows 7 and maybe 8.1. Are there any instructions?
Q

I can test too.  Window 8.0.  Include me in your noob instructions for windows Ginger_Ale when you have it ready.

[Drhiggins]

Can someone explain to me when sending a payment what the mixin does?  Is there an ideal number to use?   Thanks
 

[smooth]

Can someone explain to me when sending a payment what the mixin does?  Is there an ideal number to use?   Thanks

It is a number of "fake" outputs that are used to construct your transaction such that an observer can't tell the difference between those fake outputs and yours. So this provides untraceability.

The larger the number the more fake outputs will be used so more ambiguity as to the real source and more untracability, however this will make your transaction larger and more expensive. For general use something like 3 is probably fine. If you have a particular transaction you really want to be very untraceable, you can use a higher number, 20, 100 or more (again at the cost of higher a transaction fee). Don't use 0 or 1 at all if you are concerned about privacy, although even if you did it wouldn't mean a particular transaction could instantly be identified as yours, it is more of a question of overall health of the system.

The animation under "Blockchain analysis resistance" here may be somewhat helpful: https://cryptonote.org/inside/

[Drhiggins]

Can someone explain to me when sending a payment what the mixin does?  Is there an ideal number to use?   Thanks

It is a number of "fake" outputs that are used to construct your transaction such that an observer can't tell the difference between those fake outputs and yours. So this provides untraceability.

The larger the number the more fake outputs will be used so more ambiguity as to the real source and more untracability, however this will make your transaction larger and more expensive. For general use something like 3 is probably fine. If you have a particular transaction you really want to be very untraceable, you can use a higher number, 20, 100 or more (again at the cost of higher a transaction fee). Don't use 0 or 1 at all if you are concerned about privacy, although even if you didn't it wouldn't mean a particular transaction could instantly be identified as yours, it is more of a question of overall health of the system.

The animation under "Blockchain analysis resistance" here may be somewhat helpful: https://cryptonote.org/inside/

Ok that is crystal clear for me now.  Thanks smooth.