[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[rocoro]

I see the same dispute over the original idea that I have always seen in that there is always someone saying that the original idea should be stuck to but the truth is that it doesn't matter because ideas change and evolve over time, what was thought to be a good idea may not be in retrospect.

Ok so that's like saying...  meh today we hate gold and gold should be worth nothing. 
Let's change our thinking, just consider it that way and yep its worthless.

What a bunch of bs.   

If real trust is to be established, don't fck around with what you originally intended and what original value is being placed on.
One the main parts of this coin is how it was distributed.

[lovewiki]

I could only stake one block in 2 weeks, with around 200 CLAM

What size stacks did you have the 200 split into?

Since he only staked once, it doesn't really matter. Even if the 200 CLAM was in a single output the one stake will have frozen it for 8 hours only, so he was still actively staking for 13.6 days of the 14.

Seems like a better option would be to split that 200 into smaller amounts say 10-15 in size and allow for a month to pass. Having a large stack locked up for 8 hours seems like a waste

It was 10 x 20 CLAM already.

8 hours? I thought the minimum stake age is 4 hours only in the code.

Anyway I wasted almost 14 days not just a few hours. The main problem I think should be the JD staking wallet is 'too powerful'.

[Hippie Tech]

Speaking of "socks"...

Hippie Tech == BayAreaCoins?
BayAreaCoins == 'axe to grind'?

You truly are a wack job.

I am me.  I control no other accounts that post here.

Congrats for telling the truth for a change.

Now apologize for going along with TECHSHARE's drama queen bullshit.

@all
The mods are welcome to confirm that we are not the same person.

[cryptospout]

I could only stake one block in 2 weeks, with around 200 CLAM

What size stacks did you have the 200 split into?

Since he only staked once, it doesn't really matter. Even if the 200 CLAM was in a single output the one stake will have frozen it for 8 hours only, so he was still actively staking for 13.6 days of the 14.

Seems like a better option would be to split that 200 into smaller amounts say 10-15 in size and allow for a month to pass. Having a large stack locked up for 8 hours seems like a waste

It was 10 x 20 CLAM already.

8 hours? I thought the minimum stake age is 4 hours only in the code.

Anyway I wasted almost 14 days not just a few hours. The main problem I think should be the JD staking wallet is 'too powerful'.

its random as I recall, I had 100 coins stake practically as soon as they had matured but 600+ has been going on a week or so without a stake.

[Hippie Tech]

Informing people about the sockpuppet parade seen here IS productive.

The person said they are going to sell all their CLAM for BTC.
I would assume they would be staking their huge stash now.  This will cut the stakes for Just-Dice and increase the # of CLAMs to be liquidated by the whale holder.
I'd say it looks like a scam at this point for sure or at least merits investigation.  
Happy to be out with my head.

Speaking of "socks"...

Hippie Tech == BayAreaCoins?
BayAreaCoins == 'axe to grind'?

The hypocrisy here is astounding.

Did you remember to remove your previous scam from your alt's sig yet ?

I had nothing to do with that dice site beyond a paid signature, and you know it.

Soooo  Where are your posts for that month that preceeded the damning revelations ?

If you didn't have any.. why did he/they pay you ?

Is it yet another coincidence that you, xploited and Dabs, (who btw has his own 64block scam ongoing), just happened to be there just in time to set up "the grand finale" ?

Did you "forget/not get around to" removing the dicebitco sig because you were phishing for noobs ?

Are you running out of socks and thus why you have had to resort to necroing these recent ones ?

HAHAHA freakin HA

[dooglus]

You truly are a wack job.
I am me.  I control no other accounts that post here.

I am sure you don't.

*wink*
*wink*
 

I seriously do hope you die during child birth and really quit libeling me.

I seriously hope you think about what you just wrote and apologise.

What kind of person says something like that?

[gamblingbad]

You truly are a wack job.
I am me.  I control no other accounts that post here.

I am sure you don't.

*wink*
*wink*
 

I seriously do hope you die during child birth and really quit libeling me.

I seriously hope you think about what you just wrote and apologise.

What kind of person says something like that?

Mostly psychopaths wants stuff like that.

[smooth]

Suddenly when people start claiming / digging their Clams, as originally intended in the 'fair' distribution and the price fell accordingly (supply and demand) people start to complain and want to change the rules.

Would the situation be better or worse if the distribution had been proportional to Bitcoin holdings (like a "spin-off" described in Peter R's old thread) instead of trying to be 'fair' by giving a flat amount to each funded address? I'm a fan of Clams, but I've been skeptical of attempts to make the distribution 'fair'.

It depends on your objectives.

The spin off concept:

1. Distributes coins to many people
2. Distributes only a relatively small number of coins to most people
3. Distributes many coins to exchanges, services, etc.
4. Distributes huge numbers of coins to satoshi and other extreme early adopters
5. Is not vulnerable to insider manipulation by insiders moving coins to multiple outputs
6. Is vulnerable to insider trading if the snapshot time stamp isn't announced in advance

The per-output concept:

1. Distributes coins to many people
2. Distributes more coins to most people (assuming manipulation is limited at least)
3. Distributes many coins to exchanges, etc. in some cases (e.g. whale digger)
4. Satoshi and other extreme early adopters may still receive many coins, but comparable to some others.
5. Is vulnerable to insider manipulation by insiders moving coins to multiple outputs
6. Is vulnerable to insider trading if the snapshot time stamp isn't announced in advance

[smooth]

It might even be able to survive if Satoshi starts digging, since his supply is probably similar to the current whale digger.

I'm not sure he even has as many. If he mined every single block during the first year (he didn't) and never consolidated them, that would only be 50K. It is also extremely unlikely, of course, he is going to dig using his old Bitcoin private keys when he hasn't even moved his Bitcoins.

The main issue with this distribution method is that large numbers of small outputs have disproportionate value. Satoshi had no reason to create many such outputs, but other people have had reasons to do so since.

[dooglus]

Did you remember to remove your previous scam from your alt's sig yet ?

I had nothing to do with that dice site beyond a paid signature, and you know it.

Soooo  Where are your posts for that month that preceeded the damning revelations ?

If you didn't have any.. why did he/they pay you ?

Is it yet another coincidence that you, xploited and Dabs, (who btw has his own 64block scam ongoing), just happened to be there just in time to set up "the grand finale" ?

You may not have been around the gambling subforum when dicebitco.in was running, but let me remind you:

 * Just-Dice had recently shut down, leaving a big hole in the "investment dice site" market

 * Lots of people suddenly found themselves with BTC burning a hole in their pocket, and nowhere trustworthy to invest it; we were having to choose between the fancy looking new sites and PRCdice, which had its own problems at the time

 * dicebitco.in appeared from nowhere, looking very polished and professional, and offering decent signature ad payments

 * Lots of forum members started advertising for them. I ran their ad in my signature for a month myself before reconsidering

There's no coincidence here. Pick any random forum member involved in the gambling sub-forum at the time and the chances are pretty high that they ran the dicebitco.in ad for a while.

[seedtrue]

[rocoro]

My previous post was about not doing updates.

That method won't work considering where the majority of clams are sitting.

Whoever made the point about who has *control* (not ownership) of clams was right.

[thefix]

I haven't posted much in the Clams thread but I am a fan of Clams because it has some of the best built code.

I really with you guys would stop arguing with each other over petty things, if you guys are so concerned about the digging then just fork it out. I see the same dispute over the original idea that I have always seen in that there is always someone saying that the original idea should be stuck to but the truth is that it doesn't matter because ideas change and evolve over time, what was thought to be a good idea may not be in retrospect.

So for the love of god stop arguing and blaming each other and start working together on a solution, persuade everyone why your solution is best or why it should stay as it is, take some polls and rest the matter.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147.4980

A solution was offered to please both sides

I am for it or at least the option to vote on it

[Crestington]

I haven't posted much in the Clams thread but I am a fan of Clams because it has some of the best built code.

I really with you guys would stop arguing with each other over petty things, if you guys are so concerned about the digging then just fork it out. I see the same dispute over the original idea that I have always seen in that there is always someone saying that the original idea should be stuck to but the truth is that it doesn't matter because ideas change and evolve over time, what was thought to be a good idea may not be in retrospect.

So for the love of god stop arguing and blaming each other and start working together on a solution, persuade everyone why your solution is best or why it should stay as it is, take some polls and rest the matter.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147.4980

A solution was offered to please both sides

I am for it or at least the option to vote on it

The thing is that I like Clams and I might even have some addresses somewhere that I might be able to claim some Coins. I would buy some and Stake with them but what is preventing me from doing that is that there is a large number of undug Coins ready to be released onto the market and devalue the worth so I would need to wait until the majority of those Coins have already been dumped before getting in, otherwise the risk is too great.

I think the best option would be to set a claim-by date within 3-6 months and then go from there.

[presstab]

I haven't posted much in the Clams thread but I am a fan of Clams because it has some of the best built code.

I really with you guys would stop arguing with each other over petty things, if you guys are so concerned about the digging then just fork it out. I see the same dispute over the original idea that I have always seen in that there is always someone saying that the original idea should be stuck to but the truth is that it doesn't matter because ideas change and evolve over time, what was thought to be a good idea may not be in retrospect.

So for the love of god stop arguing and blaming each other and start working together on a solution, persuade everyone why your solution is best or why it should stay as it is, take some polls and rest the matter.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147.4980

A solution was offered to please both sides

I am for it or at least the option to vote on it

The thing is that I like Clams and I might even have some addresses somewhere that I might be able to claim some Coins. I would buy some and Stake with them but what is preventing me from doing that is that there is a large number of undug Coins ready to be released onto the market and devalue the worth so I would need to wait until the majority of those Coins have already been dumped before getting in, otherwise the risk is too great.

I think the best option would be to set a claim-by date within 3-6 months and then go from there.

I haven't poked my head in here for a little while. Damn it sucks that all this is going on, I hope you all can reach consensus on a proper solution to this!

[thefix]

I could only stake one block in 2 weeks, with around 200 CLAM

What size stacks did you have the 200 split into?

Since he only staked once, it doesn't really matter. Even if the 200 CLAM was in a single output the one stake will have frozen it for 8 hours only, so he was still actively staking for 13.6 days of the 14.

Seems like a better option would be to split that 200 into smaller amounts say 10-15 in size and allow for a month to pass. Having a large stack locked up for 8 hours seems like a waste

It was 10 x 20 CLAM already.

8 hours? I thought the minimum stake age is 4 hours only in the code.

Anyway I wasted almost 14 days not just a few hours. The main problem I think should be the JD staking wallet is 'too powerful'.

14 days is not that bad and if you still have that wallet and didn't move any coins you should open it so the other stacks have a chance to stake.

The 8 Hours was a reference to a stake being available after 510 confirmations

[dooglus]

The thing is that I like Clams and I might even have some addresses somewhere that I might be able to claim some Coins. I would buy some and Stake with them but what is preventing me from doing that is that there is a large number of undug Coins ready to be released onto the market and devalue the worth so I would need to wait until the majority of those Coins have already been dumped before getting in, otherwise the risk is too great.

Your addresses are worth 4.6 CLAMs whenever you dig them (according to the rules as they currently stand).

It makes no sense to delay digging them. If you dig them now, you can start staking them immediately. By this time next year you'll have almost twice as many, through staking.

If you wait until this time next year, you'll still only get 4.6 per address, even assuming the digging rules haven't changed by then.

As for stopping digging after 3 or 6 months, that's for the community to decide. Creative is putting together a system that will allow CLAM stakeholders to vote on-chain for proposals that change the CLAM consensus rules. Your proposal would be one such thing you could vote for. If it's popular enough, it will happen.

[clf99]

there is only one application in the world for clams, and that is justdice.
it is amazingly cool.  all the talk of staking and digging is fine

but in order to make the currency matter it needs more than one place to use the cash.

fiat currencies use taxes to make themselves relevant (u must pay the IRS in $)

bitcoin is just starting to be relevant due to people getting paid their payroll in btc and that you can spend it at dell and overstock

devote your energies to creating the next justdice if you want to make clams matter

if they're worth 40cents with one useful clambiz (justdice) they'll be worth 3x that with two, and 5x that with 3.  its exponential

[Bitco¡n]

if they're worth 40cents with one useful clambiz (justdice) they'll be worth 3x that with two, and 5x that with 3.  its exponential

Why would they be worth 3x with 2 places to use clam? And why 5x with 3 places?

[rocoro]

if they're worth 40cents with one useful clambiz (justdice) they'll be worth 3x that with two, and 5x that with 3.  its exponential

Why would they be worth 3x with 2 places to use clam? And why 5x with 3 places?

Because then they won't be so centralized & controlled [even though not owned] by one entity.