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Author Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"  (Read 1150760 times)
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smooth
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December 05, 2015, 06:51:54 PM
 #5881

We've been doing this for a long time, and last times we've decided to warn people before the storm FUD so we can make more money on our short positions, is the minimum we can do. Wink

FTFY

The game is what it is of course. Carry on.




C'mon Smooth don't be annoyed.

I'm not.
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smooth
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December 05, 2015, 06:56:53 PM
 #5882

people can vote sending clam, but can someone send many times the same coins?

No.
You can't support a petition by 'sending' CLAM.

Supporting a petition requires staking a block.

But need 50% of votes for change? So if jd have 750k clam votes change will happend?

There is no specific threshold of what votes are "needed". Nothing automatic happens as a result of the petitions (unlike the case where a fork is deployed in the code and waits for a certain number of block votes to activate). It is a poll. After that, developers, users, stakers, service operators, etc. will all decide what to do having been informed by the opinions of the current (at least during some past time window) stakers.
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December 05, 2015, 07:25:35 PM
 #5883

Be prepared for serious dumps to happen in the next days and weeks, now we have the control.

Our message is simple as always: Relevant big traders of the circle (me included) have big short positions in CLAMS, so the price will not rise above 0.003 anymore while we are in control.

I'm not an expert, but doesn't having a big short position mean that you already borrowed a bunch of CLAM and sold them? If so, why would there be dumps happening? It sounds to me like you're hoping people will panic in response to your message and sell cheap so you can buy back the coins you already dumped and get out of the hole you are currently in.

Good luck with that!

If you are going to dump some coins cheap, let me know how many and what price and I'll take them off your hands OTC, to save us both the exchange fee.

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VultureFund
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December 05, 2015, 07:33:17 PM
 #5884

Be prepared for serious dumps to happen in the next days and weeks, now we have the control.

Our message is simple as always: Relevant big traders of the circle (me included) have big short positions in CLAMS, so the price will not rise above 0.003 anymore while we are in control.

I'm not an expert, but doesn't having a big short position mean that you already borrowed a bunch of CLAM and sold them? If so, why would there be dumps happening? It sounds to me like you're hoping people will panic in response to your message and sell cheap so you can buy back the coins you already dumped and get out of the hole you are currently in.

Good luck with that!

If you are going to dump some coins cheap, let me know how many and what price and I'll take them off your hands OTC, to save us both the exchange fee.


Hey doggy, if you want some information of how this works PM and I'll explain you. I cannot share this here.

And Yes, this message can be interpreted as FUD or a desesperate attempt to close my positions, but my intention is just to warn.

As I said, a fair price for clams is 0.0004-0.0005-0.0006 , if you want "cheap" Clams, put your orders there. And no, I will not sell you OTC, this game don't works like that. Wink
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December 05, 2015, 07:36:48 PM
 #5885

Be prepared for serious dumps to happen in the next days and weeks, now we have the control.

Our message is simple as always: Relevant big traders of the circle (me included) have big short positions in CLAMS, so the price will not rise above 0.003 anymore while we are in control.

I'm not an expert, but doesn't having a big short position mean that you already borrowed a bunch of CLAM and sold them? If so, why would there be dumps happening? It sounds to me like you're hoping people will panic in response to your message and sell cheap so you can buy back the coins you already dumped and get out of the hole you are currently in.

Good luck with that!

If you are going to dump some coins cheap, let me know how many and what price and I'll take them off your hands OTC, to save us both the exchange fee.


Lol.. i watched 60K CLAM disappear from the Lending offers at 0.0016 a few days ago.. i wouldn't want to be holding that bag right now Cheesy
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December 05, 2015, 07:38:14 PM
 #5886

Be prepared for serious dumps to happen in the next days and weeks, now we have the control.

Our message is simple as always: Relevant big traders of the circle (me included) have big short positions in CLAMS, so the price will not rise above 0.003 anymore while we are in control.

I'm not an expert, but doesn't having a big short position mean that you already borrowed a bunch of CLAM and sold them? If so, why would there be dumps happening? It sounds to me like you're hoping people will panic in response to your message and sell cheap so you can buy back the coins you already dumped and get out of the hole you are currently in.

Good luck with that!

If you are going to dump some coins cheap, let me know how many and what price and I'll take them off your hands OTC, to save us both the exchange fee.


Hey doggy, if you want some information of how this works PM and I'll explain you. I cannot share this here.

And Yes, this message can be interpreted as FUD or a desesperate attempt to close my positions, but my intention is just to warn.

As I said, a fair price for clams is 0.0004-0.0005-0.0006 , if you want "cheap" Clams, put your orders there. And no, I will not sell you OTC, this game don't works like that. Wink


LOL listen to this guy thinking he has some kind of inside information.

You're 'bout to get squeezed into a forced liquidation son.. enjoy!
VultureFund
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December 05, 2015, 07:41:36 PM
 #5887

Be prepared for serious dumps to happen in the next days and weeks, now we have the control.

Our message is simple as always: Relevant big traders of the circle (me included) have big short positions in CLAMS, so the price will not rise above 0.003 anymore while we are in control.

I'm not an expert, but doesn't having a big short position mean that you already borrowed a bunch of CLAM and sold them? If so, why would there be dumps happening? It sounds to me like you're hoping people will panic in response to your message and sell cheap so you can buy back the coins you already dumped and get out of the hole you are currently in.

Good luck with that!

If you are going to dump some coins cheap, let me know how many and what price and I'll take them off your hands OTC, to save us both the exchange fee.


Hey doggy, if you want some information of how this works PM and I'll explain you. I cannot share this here.

And Yes, this message can be interpreted as FUD or a desesperate attempt to close my positions, but my intention is just to warn.

As I said, a fair price for clams is 0.0004-0.0005-0.0006 , if you want "cheap" Clams, put your orders there. And no, I will not sell you OTC, this game don't works like that. Wink


LOL listen to this guy thinking he has some kind of inside information.

You're 'bout to get squeezed into a forced liquidation son.. enjoy!


Yes man, you're right Cool

You could try to pump this shit, we have a surprise for you at 0.003 . But you can try! Grin

That's for you, you deserve it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPl7lJbga38

 Wink Wink
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December 05, 2015, 07:46:14 PM
 #5888

Be prepared for serious dumps to happen in the next days and weeks, now we have the control.

Our message is simple as always: Relevant big traders of the circle (me included) have big short positions in CLAMS, so the price will not rise above 0.003 anymore while we are in control.

I'm not an expert, but doesn't having a big short position mean that you already borrowed a bunch of CLAM and sold them? If so, why would there be dumps happening? It sounds to me like you're hoping people will panic in response to your message and sell cheap so you can buy back the coins you already dumped and get out of the hole you are currently in.

Good luck with that!

If you are going to dump some coins cheap, let me know how many and what price and I'll take them off your hands OTC, to save us both the exchange fee.


Hey doggy, if you want some information of how this works PM and I'll explain you. I cannot share this here.

And Yes, this message can be interpreted as FUD or a desesperate attempt to close my positions, but my intention is just to warn.

As I said, a fair price for clams is 0.0004-0.0005-0.0006 , if you want "cheap" Clams, put your orders there. And no, I will not sell you OTC, this game don't works like that. Wink


LOL listen to this guy thinking he has some kind of inside information.

You're 'bout to get squeezed into a forced liquidation son.. enjoy!


Yes man, you're right Cool

You could try to pump this shit, we have a surprise for you at 0.003 . But you can try! Grin

That's for you, you deserve it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPl7lJbga38

 Wink Wink

I see just words and no action


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edmundduke
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December 05, 2015, 08:00:36 PM
 #5889

Yes man, you're right Cool

You could try to pump this shit, we have a surprise for you at 0.003 . But you can try! Grin

That's for you, you deserve it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPl7lJbga38

 Wink Wink

I see just words and no action

I have to agree just words and no action. And as Dooglus mentioned above it seems that you have the short end of the stick right now.
Ill keep an eye on the CLAM price and see what happens with it, credits to you if you really somehow manage to drop the price to that range.
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December 05, 2015, 08:28:04 PM
 #5890




Yes man, you're right Cool

You could try to pump this shit, we have a surprise for you at 0.003 . But you can try! Grin

That's for you, you deserve it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPl7lJbga38

 Wink Wink


Hey cool video.. but who needs to pump yet? it's more entertaining watching you spend 0.5% / day on your short positions  Cheesy

And what would be the point of pumping to 0.003? It would only take 44,000 USD to go straight to 0.005999.. can you sustain it? Better add some more collateral to your account Cheesy
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December 05, 2015, 08:36:40 PM
 #5891




Yes man, you're right Cool

You could try to pump this shit, we have a surprise for you at 0.003 . But you can try! Grin

That's for you, you deserve it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPl7lJbga38

 Wink Wink


Hey cool video.. but who needs to pump yet? it's more entertaining watching you spend 0.5% / day on your short positions  Cheesy

And what would be the point of pumping to 0.003? It would only take 44,000 USD to go straight to 0.005999.. can you sustain it? Better add some more collateral to your account Cheesy

Yes, they need bid interest up to 1% i will loanout what i got. Then i can buy more cheap. That sounds great.


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Bit-Exo



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o_dima
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December 05, 2015, 09:25:50 PM
 #5892

WBB??!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked  C'mon eat my shit man!!
You look serious but WBB???  Muahahaahaha. If WBB is a good coin my shit smells like heaven man. Cool Cool
I'm in, like you, but my profits of this scam-shit will be to invest in serious coins like ETH, LTC and CLAMS. Good try to pump your shitty WBB! Wink Wink

(in Sep. 26 CLAM price was around 0.0055)

Hi CLAM believers. I'm not gonna lie, I have bad news for you.
Your shitty coin is so overpriced, so we have decided to act in this market.

What has happened to you in just 2 months? Who hurt you? Who turn your serious coins to invest into shitty coins?
VultureFund
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December 05, 2015, 09:53:43 PM
 #5893

WBB??!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked  C'mon eat my shit man!!
You look serious but WBB???  Muahahaahaha. If WBB is a good coin my shit smells like heaven man. Cool Cool
I'm in, like you, but my profits of this scam-shit will be to invest in serious coins like ETH, LTC and CLAMS. Good try to pump your shitty WBB! Wink Wink

(in Sep. 26 CLAM price was around 0.0055)

Hi CLAM believers. I'm not gonna lie, I have bad news for you.
Your shitty coin is so overpriced, so we have decided to act in this market.

What has happened to you in just 2 months? Who hurt you? Who turn your serious coins to invest into shitty coins?


Hehe  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy I was expecting for one "smart-guy" to say so. But you made a big mistake little boy.  Cool

I said "invest", but not if I invested in long or short positions young man. Grin Grin Grin I'm short in all these shits since middle of year and you just cannot imagine how my trading wallet looks like, but even with HUGE profits on CLAMS, I keep saying that this shit is super overvalued, and I'm not the only one who thinks so...

Have a nice day bigfoots. I expect someone to raise this to 0.003, it would be very funny. Wink Anyway, it's not gonna happen, want facts? Here you have one: 0.0025 WAS THE TOP, IT WILL NEVER TOUCH NOR SURPASS IT AGAIN.

Keep buying these shits man, but then don't cry saying SCAM! SCAM! SCAM!! like teenagers. Wink
edmundduke
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December 05, 2015, 09:59:40 PM
 #5894

WBB??!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked  C'mon eat my shit man!!
You look serious but WBB???  Muahahaahaha. If WBB is a good coin my shit smells like heaven man. Cool Cool
I'm in, like you, but my profits of this scam-shit will be to invest in serious coins like ETH, LTC and CLAMS. Good try to pump your shitty WBB! Wink Wink

(in Sep. 26 CLAM price was around 0.0055)

Hi CLAM believers. I'm not gonna lie, I have bad news for you.
Your shitty coin is so overpriced, so we have decided to act in this market.

What has happened to you in just 2 months? Who hurt you? Who turn your serious coins to invest into shitty coins?


Hehe  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy I was expecting for one "smart-guy" to say so. But you made a big mistake little boy.  Cool

I said "invest", but not if I invested in long or short positions young man. Grin Grin Grin I'm short in all these shits since middle of year and you just cannot imagine how my trading wallet looks like, but even with HUGE profits on CLAMS, I keep saying that this shit is super overvalued, and I'm not the only one who thinks so...

Have a nice day bigfoots. I expect someone to raise this to 0.003, it would be very funny. Wink Anyway, it's not gonna happen, want facts? Here you have one: 0.0025 WAS THE TOP, IT WILL NEVER TOUCH NOR SURPASS IT AGAIN.

Keep buying these shits man, but then don't cry saying SCAM! SCAM! SCAM!! like teenagers. Wink

I believe you have talked and gloated enough about how amazing of a trader you are and how you and your investing friends will drop the CLAM market into the 40-50k range. Time to stop talking, its come time to show if you have any backbone to back up the claims or are you one of those who just cant stop talking.
goose20
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December 05, 2015, 10:03:07 PM
 #5895

WBB??!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked  C'mon eat my shit man!!
You look serious but WBB???  Muahahaahaha. If WBB is a good coin my shit smells like heaven man. Cool Cool
I'm in, like you, but my profits of this scam-shit will be to invest in serious coins like ETH, LTC and CLAMS. Good try to pump your shitty WBB! Wink Wink

(in Sep. 26 CLAM price was around 0.0055)

Hi CLAM believers. I'm not gonna lie, I have bad news for you.
Your shitty coin is so overpriced, so we have decided to act in this market.

What has happened to you in just 2 months? Who hurt you? Who turn your serious coins to invest into shitty coins?


Hehe  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy I was expecting for one "smart-guy" to say so. But you made a big mistake little boy.  Cool

I said "invest", but not if I invested in long or short positions young man. Grin Grin Grin I'm short in all these shits since middle of year and you just cannot imagine how my trading wallet looks like, but even with HUGE profits on CLAMS, I keep saying that this shit is super overvalued, and I'm not the only one who thinks so...

Have a nice day bigfoots. I expect someone to raise this to 0.003, it would be very funny. Wink Anyway, it's not gonna happen, want facts? Here you have one: 0.0025 WAS THE TOP, IT WILL NEVER TOUCH NOR SURPASS IT AGAIN.

Keep buying these shits man, but then don't cry saying SCAM! SCAM! SCAM!! like teenagers. Wink

I believe you have talked and gloated enough about how amazing of a trader you are and how you and your investing friends will drop the CLAM market into the 40-50k range. Time to stop talking, its come time to show if you have any backbone to back up the claims or are you one of those who just cant stop talking.

Dont feed the troll, he is full of bs.
There are too many of us who value clam - it'll never drop that low.
VultureFund
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December 05, 2015, 10:15:18 PM
 #5896

WBB??!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked  C'mon eat my shit man!!
You look serious but WBB???  Muahahaahaha. If WBB is a good coin my shit smells like heaven man. Cool Cool
I'm in, like you, but my profits of this scam-shit will be to invest in serious coins like ETH, LTC and CLAMS. Good try to pump your shitty WBB! Wink Wink

(in Sep. 26 CLAM price was around 0.0055)

Hi CLAM believers. I'm not gonna lie, I have bad news for you.
Your shitty coin is so overpriced, so we have decided to act in this market.

What has happened to you in just 2 months? Who hurt you? Who turn your serious coins to invest into shitty coins?


Hehe  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy I was expecting for one "smart-guy" to say so. But you made a big mistake little boy.  Cool

I said "invest", but not if I invested in long or short positions young man. Grin Grin Grin I'm short in all these shits since middle of year and you just cannot imagine how my trading wallet looks like, but even with HUGE profits on CLAMS, I keep saying that this shit is super overvalued, and I'm not the only one who thinks so...

Have a nice day bigfoots. I expect someone to raise this to 0.003, it would be very funny. Wink Anyway, it's not gonna happen, want facts? Here you have one: 0.0025 WAS THE TOP, IT WILL NEVER TOUCH NOR SURPASS IT AGAIN.

Keep buying these shits man, but then don't cry saying SCAM! SCAM! SCAM!! like teenagers. Wink

I believe you have talked and gloated enough about how amazing of a trader you are and how you and your investing friends will drop the CLAM market into the 40-50k range. Time to stop talking, its come time to show if you have any backbone to back up the claims or are you one of those who just cant stop talking.


Hey man relax a little, we won't dump this from one day to another. Don't worry about our margin calls, its literally IMPOSSIBLE to margin call us. So if you have illusion pump it to the price you want, but remember that we have the control, and our plan is to drop the price to 0.0005 zone.

Don't think your CLAMS are very special, we've done much more profitable operations, but this one it's just too easy. Grin Just think about earning a hundred BTC in half a year, without much work, and with ZERO risk. That's my situation, and I won't change it with any of you.

And yes, I love to talk, because I don't have the need to be working like a slave for a shitty salary. Wink

Northstar
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December 05, 2015, 10:16:50 PM
 #5897

Hi CLAM believers. I'm not gonna lie, I have bad news for you.

Your shitty coin is so overpriced, so we have decided to act in this market.

Be prepared for serious dumps to happen in the next days and weeks, now we have the control.

Our message is simple as always: Relevant big traders of the circle (me included) have big short positions in CLAMS, so the price will not rise above 0.003 anymore while we are in control.

Our plan is to put CLAMS at the price that actually deserves, that is in the range of 0.0004-0.0005 .

Don't blame us, blame the CLAM distribution scheme, blame poloniex for allowing margin trading, and blame Curious for allowing us having the control of the market.

Don't worry, we're just here to make money and justice, once CLAMS gets to it's fair value ($150K-$200K market cap) we'll be out of this shit. But now, be prepared for dumps incoming. Wink  

This is not a joke or a threat, just information of what's gonna happen here. We've been doing this for a long time, and last times we've decided to warn people before the storm, is the minimum we can do. Wink

Finally, for those CLAM chickens who're gonna troll us, we give you the same message as XMR holders recieved:

That's CLAMS holders situation in two months: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPl7lJbga38



LOL so let me get this straight: you are concerned with "fairness" and "justice", yet you have "Vulture" in your name and are in the pump n'dump business?...

I am flattered by your honesty and concern regarding the fairness of the coin. I am also very thankful that you are willing to right things for us. For those not endowed with intimate knowledge of the ways of a pumper/dumper, let me fill you guys in:

He says he will bring the price down. Then gives a bullshit excuse for doing so, that is at odds with his very posting. So allow me to translate: the reason why he is "warning" is not out of the good of his heart, but rather, because he wants to suppress the price. Probably because he realizes that he missed the digger's dumps, failed to get on the bandwagon, and sees that the people who bought the majority of digger coins have no interest in selling at current prices. He is panicking trying to buy, a missed opportunity. His obvious "noble intentions" aside, why would he warn us of an impending dump? It's in his best interest to let the price rise and slowly exit his positions, selling into the buys on the way up. Of course, he needs to have something to sell in the first place Wink

So forgive me, Mr. Noble Vulture for me being so frank, when I tell you in no uncertain terms to go fuck yourself .!.
cryptospout
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December 05, 2015, 10:22:58 PM
 #5898

WBB??!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked  C'mon eat my shit man!!
You look serious but WBB???  Muahahaahaha. If WBB is a good coin my shit smells like heaven man. Cool Cool
I'm in, like you, but my profits of this scam-shit will be to invest in serious coins like ETH, LTC and CLAMS. Good try to pump your shitty WBB! Wink Wink

(in Sep. 26 CLAM price was around 0.0055)

Hi CLAM believers. I'm not gonna lie, I have bad news for you.
Your shitty coin is so overpriced, so we have decided to act in this market.

What has happened to you in just 2 months? Who hurt you? Who turn your serious coins to invest into shitty coins?


Hehe  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy I was expecting for one "smart-guy" to say so. But you made a big mistake little boy.  Cool

I said "invest", but not if I invested in long or short positions young man. Grin Grin Grin I'm short in all these shits since middle of year and you just cannot imagine how my trading wallet looks like, but even with HUGE profits on CLAMS, I keep saying that this shit is super overvalued, and I'm not the only one who thinks so...

Have a nice day bigfoots. I expect someone to raise this to 0.003, it would be very funny. Wink Anyway, it's not gonna happen, want facts? Here you have one: 0.0025 WAS THE TOP, IT WILL NEVER TOUCH NOR SURPASS IT AGAIN.

Keep buying these shits man, but then don't cry saying SCAM! SCAM! SCAM!! like teenagers. Wink

I believe you have talked and gloated enough about how amazing of a trader you are and how you and your investing friends will drop the CLAM market into the 40-50k range. Time to stop talking, its come time to show if you have any backbone to back up the claims or are you one of those who just cant stop talking.


Hey man relax a little, we won't dump this from one day to another. Don't worry about our margin calls, its literally IMPOSSIBLE to margin call us. So if you have illusion pump it to the price you want, but remember that we have the control, and our plan is to drop the price to 0.0005 zone.

Don't think your CLAMS are very special, we've done much more profitable operations, but this one it's just too easy. Grin Just think about earning a hundred BTC in half a year, without much work, and with ZERO risk. That's my situation, and I won't change it with any of you.

And yes, I love to talk, because I don't have the need to be working like a slave for a shitty salary. Wink



please drop the price asap I need more cheap clams for my retirement fund
Northstar
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December 05, 2015, 10:24:57 PM
 #5899

WBB??!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked  C'mon eat my shit man!!
You look serious but WBB???  Muahahaahaha. If WBB is a good coin my shit smells like heaven man. Cool Cool
I'm in, like you, but my profits of this scam-shit will be to invest in serious coins like ETH, LTC and CLAMS. Good try to pump your shitty WBB! Wink Wink

(in Sep. 26 CLAM price was around 0.0055)

Hi CLAM believers. I'm not gonna lie, I have bad news for you.
Your shitty coin is so overpriced, so we have decided to act in this market.

What has happened to you in just 2 months? Who hurt you? Who turn your serious coins to invest into shitty coins?


Hehe  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy I was expecting for one "smart-guy" to say so. But you made a big mistake little boy.  Cool

I said "invest", but not if I invested in long or short positions young man. Grin Grin Grin I'm short in all these shits since middle of year and you just cannot imagine how my trading wallet looks like, but even with HUGE profits on CLAMS, I keep saying that this shit is super overvalued, and I'm not the only one who thinks so...

Have a nice day bigfoots. I expect someone to raise this to 0.003, it would be very funny. Wink Anyway, it's not gonna happen, want facts? Here you have one: 0.0025 WAS THE TOP, IT WILL NEVER TOUCH NOR SURPASS IT AGAIN.

Keep buying these shits man, but then don't cry saying SCAM! SCAM! SCAM!! like teenagers. Wink

You know one more way to tell you're full of shit up to your ears? Wink I could disprove your assertion with a measily 16BTC right now, in one swipe I could blast through 250K sats just like that. It really doesn't take much to raise the price.

You make only 15BTC/month and you think you are untouchable? LOL

Kid, just stop talking and leave. You are a fool and nothing more than a little keyboard warrior
navaman
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December 05, 2015, 10:37:26 PM
 #5900

Welp, it was disheartening to read people in JD already descend into the fuck you, i got mine, jack, stakeholder democracy.  When it comes down to it, the guy who owns a boatload of clams is entitled to protect his ass vs the guy who uses the currency everyday.  This was entirely my point of the basic ignorance of most of the crypto world of even basic economics.  What is velocity? Why does our current system of finance corrupt us?  The are questions best left to ScotchHorse pissing his pants about rather than a proper debate.  Heaven forbid Chuck gets offended and starts banning people for self-expression.  Should i bother offering amendments to the basic staking process when the average person can't understand why such might be necessary even if they aren't actually correct?  You see, I entertain the possibility I might be wrong which is derived from the fact I know we have, and I, have limited understanding of economics and various processes that drive it.  I wish I could say crypto is the future when that is dubious even just looking at applications of the technology in such coins as Eth and BTS.  Crypto looks a lot like the the present system because nothing has changed.  I said in JD chat that I laughed at everybody in Cyrpto with a friend of mine because y'all railed against Wall Street and the IMF but had no clue what Basel is.  I'm still laughing at you.

Help develop DarkClam.  The Just-Dice currency of the future.  Helps is needed with development, funding and a lot of ideas.

Go here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1362098.msg13861544#msg13861544
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