[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[crazyivan]

This kind of BS reply can write only the digger himself or someone who uses the same tactics. What s the problem in selling slowly? He d make more money and the rest of the CLAM community would make more money. The only ones who would pay more are new CLAM entrants and event them would make money from staking a highly valueble coin.

While I don't think the tone of DrkLvr_'s reply was helpful, I think I see things the same way as him.

If the digger makes more money, the rest of us make less. There's no way for everyone to make more.

You talked about how when you are a "top 10" holder of a coin and want out, you sell it slowly so that you get a better price for it. That means you make more than if you would by dumping it quickly, but the buyers *pay* more than they would if you had dumped it quickly. That's good for Ivan, and bad for everyone else.

Somebody selling 500k CLAMs into an 800k market is always going to depress the price. Selling them cheap is better for *us* than selling them expensive.

If you're looking for someone to "blame", I think you need to look at the developers who came up with the initial distribution method. They're the ones who (probably unknowingly) gave 500k CLAMs to a single person. In retrospect, rewarding people with CLAMs for filling the BTC blockchain with unspent outputs wasn't the best idea. The rest was pretty much inevitable from that point. Each market participant acts in their own perceived best interest.

I agree with the second part of your post, the dev team should have thought this better but also I should ve thought this better when joining CLAM. Also, I went out when the price started falling so I dont hold much ATM and this is not the primary reason why I write this. So again, I do not blame anyone and I m not angy, just disappointed.

About the first part of your post, getting 500k at cheaper price s always good, in case you have market to stake and sell them back. My point is, with such a huge amount being dumped, CLAM s not going to have extremely hard time recovering, if ever. So, if an average holder need to wait for 5 years to sell his CLAM in order to make money from buying CLAM cheap, this is not gonna work.

You already have this in practice. The digger has removed most of his huge sale orders and we have only 30k on Polo but the price still goes down. Why? Cause people know what s going to happen.

Killing the dig is the only option I can think of for CLAM to survive. If I am mistaken and there s something wrong with my logic, pls show me where I am wrong. I am an easy guy to talk to.

 

[nakaone]

do not get me wrong, I could not follow the whole discussion:

Is it not possible by market mechanisms to solve the problem? I simply believe that the market was wrong about the (expected) price. The market corrected (massively). The functunality and the contract of clams as well as just-dice usage are not affected are they?

[smooth]

This imo is what was happening. I know what the digger has said. But initially his sizeable sells were causing the price to drop. Definitely caused an imbalance.

How do you know the sells were his?

[crazyivan]

It is true that if I had been more careful and not revealed my total dig amount, people would not have caught on so quickly, and I could probably have made more BTC from my CLAMs. But as dooglus said, I was adding 500k clams to a total supply of 800k clams. The price will go down no matter what. If no one knew how many I had and I sold it real slow, the price might have gone down much slower. I would have made a lot more money, and a lot more people would have lost money.

Remember that CLAM price had a huge run up before I started digging. Clam had only 1 use case, which is JustDice. The price at that time was not sustainable. I saw that and decided to cash out at that time. I'm sure others saw it too and cashed out. Waves and waves of selling is not because of me. Of course, I added to the selling pressure by putting in limit sells above market. But that doesn't really matter, because once Dooglus revealed my total dig amount, the market started to panic. The price fairly quickly dropped to the new "true" price given the new information out there. I did not increase my selling. Actually, my selling strategy has remained unchanged since the beginning.

I have nothing against you, you have your own interests to take care and CLAM rules allowed you to dig and sell whenever you want.

Revealing your existence and the number of coins you own, in addition to your selling pressure, has probably been crucial for this price dump.

But the main question is what now? Where do we go from now? Cause if this the whole plan, you digging and dumping, I m afraid you wont have anyone to sell to. Cause I know I would not place a single satoshi as a buy order knowing the price s gonna go only down. Also, only a noob would enter the market now and buy so new people re out too. I know some people re gonna say I m sharing negative marketing to CLAM but I would not like for these noobs who enter PoS for the first time to come here and lose their money without even having a chance to profit. On the other hand, I would like CLAM to go down, ever. I hope you see my point, what do we do now? Where does CLAM go from here?

Not to mention the fact I hope you do plan to keep some of your CLAM to stake and profit from PoS in the future as well. So, dev team, community, where do we go from here? What is the way out? Sitting and doing nothing isnt cause one does not need to be a genius to figure out where all this is gonna end if nothing s being done.

[Trent Russell]

...
If you're looking for someone to "blame", I think you need to look at the developers who came up with the initial distribution method. They're the ones who (probably unknowingly) gave 500k CLAMs to a single person. In retrospect, rewarding people with CLAMs for filling the BTC blockchain with unspent outputs wasn't the best idea. The rest was pretty much inevitable from that point. Each market participant acts in their own perceived best interest.

I agree with the second part of your post, the dev team should have thought this better but also I should ve thought this better when joining CLAM.

Someone could criticize BTC in the same way: there are "whales" (e.g., Satoshi) and so don't join up. Do you have the same concerns about BTC?

Killing the dig is the only option I can think of for CLAM to survive. If I am mistaken and there s something wrong with my logic, pls show me where I am wrong. I am an easy guy to talk to.

So, dev team, community, where do we go from here? What is the way out? Sitting and doing nothing isnt cause one does not need to be a genius to figure out where all this is gonna end if nothing s being done.

It's not clear to me how this will end up if nothing is changed.

The current selling by curious and (even perhaps moreso) other people is pushing down the price a lot. That's bad.

Eventually curious won't have such a large stash to sell (same for the people who are choosing to get out now) and there will be fewer clams on the market. That's good.

Some people will be afraid of a future whale digger and will stay away from Clams. That's bad.

Some people will hear someone got a free six figure jackpot from Clams initial distribution and then take the time to look into Clams. That's good.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm only saying it's not clear to me you're right.

[crazyivan]

I have nothing against you, you have your own interests to take care and CLAM rules allowed you to dig and sell whenever you want.

Revealing your existence and the number of coins you own, in addition to your selling pressure, has probably been crucial for this price dump.

But the main question is what now? Where do we go from now? Cause if this the whole plan, you digging and dumping, I m afraid you wont have anyone to sell to. Cause I know I would not place a single satoshi as a buy order knowing the price s gonna go only down. Also, only a noob would enter the market now and buy so new people re out too. I know some people re gonna say I m sharing negative marketing to CLAM but I would not like for these noobs who enter PoS for the first time to come here and lose their money without even having a chance to profit. On the other hand, I would like CLAM to go down, ever. I hope you see my point, what do we do now? Where does CLAM go from here?

Not to mention the fact I hope you do plan to keep some of your CLAM to stake and profit from PoS in the future as well. So, dev team, community, where do we go from here? What is the way out? Sitting and doing nothing isnt cause one does not need to be a genius to figure out where all this is gonna end if nothing s being done.

No doubt, the digging was the catalyst of the price dump. But CLAMs were previously overpriced. The price today is closer to the right price given the current situation: there are potentially still millions of undug CLAMs and the only use case for clams is JustDice.

I think you and others are focused way too much on the price of CLAM. If your only interest in Clam is to profit from it then Clams won't go anywhere. The price matters very little. For Clams to succeed, there needs to more reasons to own Clams.

Haha. We re focusing on the price of CLAM?? So why did you dump any of them if you believed so much in reasons to own CLAMS? You could have staked all of them and sell stakes only.

[ethought]

I have nothing against you, you have your own interests to take care and CLAM rules allowed you to dig and sell whenever you want.

Revealing your existence and the number of coins you own, in addition to your selling pressure, has probably been crucial for this price dump.

But the main question is what now? Where do we go from now? Cause if this the whole plan, you digging and dumping, I m afraid you wont have anyone to sell to. Cause I know I would not place a single satoshi as a buy order knowing the price s gonna go only down. Also, only a noob would enter the market now and buy so new people re out too. I know some people re gonna say I m sharing negative marketing to CLAM but I would not like for these noobs who enter PoS for the first time to come here and lose their money without even having a chance to profit. On the other hand, I would like CLAM to go down, ever. I hope you see my point, what do we do now? Where does CLAM go from here?

Not to mention the fact I hope you do plan to keep some of your CLAM to stake and profit from PoS in the future as well. So, dev team, community, where do we go from here? What is the way out? Sitting and doing nothing isnt cause one does not need to be a genius to figure out where all this is gonna end if nothing s being done.

No doubt, the digging was the catalyst of the price dump. But CLAMs were previously overpriced. The price today is closer to the right price given the current situation: there are potentially still millions of undug CLAMs and the only use case for clams is JustDice.

I think you and others are focused way too much on the price of CLAM. If your only interest in Clam is to profit from it then Clams won't go anywhere. The price matters very little. For Clams to succeed, there needs to more reasons to own Clams.

Haha. We re focusing on the price of CLAM?? So why did you dump any of them if you believed so much in reasons to own CLAMS? You could have staked all of them and sell stakes only.

I think you are missing his point. What I think he is trying to say is aside from the price there are no reasons to own Clams apart from JustDice.

Killing the dig is the only option I can think of for CLAM to survive. If I am mistaken and there s something wrong with my logic, pls show me where I am wrong. I am an easy guy to talk to.

Killing the dig makes Clams just like any of the hundreds (thousands) of other altcoins out there. The dig was the only thing that made Clams what it is. Like I said before the price was unrealistically high, probably still too high - especially if a couple more whales come along.

[clf99]

   getinfo shows

"moneysupply" : 15418603.13048927,
    "digsupply" : 818675.02325388,
    "stakesupply" : 644201.72641731,
    "activesupply" : 1462876.74967119,

What is the definition of activesupply.  Why is stakesupply so low if JD has 900k+ coins invested?  How long does it take an active coin to become staked?

[SuperClam]

   getinfo shows
"moneysupply" : 15418603.13048927,
    "digsupply" : 818675.02325388,
    "stakesupply" : 644201.72641731,
    "activesupply" : 1462876.74967119,

What is the definition of activesupply.  Why is stakesupply so low if JD has 900k+ coins invested?  How long does it take an active coin to become staked?

'digsupply' is the amount of CLAM "claimed".
'stakesupply' is the amount of CLAM created via staking.
'activesupply' is the 'stakesupply' + 'digsupply'.
'moneysupply' is the 'stakesupply' + 'digsupply' + those CLAM yet to be claimed.

[Chuck_Bartowski]

@SuperClam

Can we have a status when "finally" the Voting System will be announced?

Since you said this a couple of days ago...

i think it would help the community to see where we stand now and what is done for / against the current situation.

Greetings, Chuck

[goose20]

This imo is what was happening. I know what the digger has said. But initially his sizeable sells were causing the price to drop. Definitely caused an imbalance.

How do you know the sells were his?

Yep, good point. I don't know. Putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. My comments are my opinions based on my observations.

Like you said in your earlier post, could be just one or several coincidences.

[SuperClam]

@SuperClam
Can we have a status when "finally" the Voting System will be announced?
Since you said this a couple of days ago...
i think it would help the community to see where we stand now and what is done for / against the current situation.
Greetings, Chuck

Taking a bit longer than expected to get final kinks worked out of a collaboratively edited 'Google Doc' and a proper UI in the client to make creation and expression of 'petitions' as simple as possible so everyone can be included.

The Document is basically complete, with a few format and wording conflicts yet to be resolved between dooglus and I.
Kefkius is finishing up the petition specific UI, with some of the related UI updates already having been pushed to the repository.

Considering the influence of JD on the network at the moment, it is important that JD have a provable UI for user voting as well; would have to talk to dooglus concerning any progress in that arena.

Of course, the Thanksgiving holiday(in the U.S.) certainly didn't help.

[Hippie Tech]

It is true that if I had been more careful and not revealed my total dig amount, people would not have caught on so quickly, and I could probably have made more BTC from my CLAMs. But as dooglus said, I was adding 500k clams to a total supply of 800k clams. The price will go down no matter what. If no one knew how many I had and I sold it real slow, the price might have gone down much slower. I would have made a lot more money, and a lot more people would have lost money.

Remember that CLAM price had a huge run up before I started digging. Clam had only 1 use case, which is JustDice. The price at that time was not sustainable. I saw that and decided to cash out at that time. I'm sure others saw it too and cashed out. Waves and waves of selling is not because of me. Of course, I added to the selling pressure by putting in limit sells above market. But that doesn't really matter, because once Dooglus revealed my total dig amount, the market started to panic. The price fairly quickly dropped to the new "true" price given the new information out there. I did not increase my selling. Actually, my selling strategy has remained unchanged since the beginning.

Were you being just as careless when you let the crypto world know the who and where of how to access your vast crypto wealth ?

Only an uber noob would do that.

Ti les bvre Stavo ! O agios malakas !

edit

Thanks BIP38 seems like what I want. But there doesn't seem to be an easy tool to do the encryption or decryption yet. I don't run Windows.
And here's my dead man's switch: h t t p  :/ /www .deadmansswitch . net / (DO NOT TRUST !)

You were looking for the best encryption for your site right ?

Magas ?

[dooglus]

Were you being just as careless when you let the crypto world know the who and where of how to access your vast crypto wealth ?

here's my dead man's switch: h t t p  :/ /www .deadmansswitch . net / (DO NOT TRUST !)

As usual, you have misunderstood. He is saying that he USES deadmansswitch.net, not that he OWNS it.

[clf99]

btw i bought coffee from this guy http://cryptomercado.com/collections/all w/ clams (via email ultimately) and he claims it is in the mail

so, it's not just 'jd' anymore

[jaysabi]

It is true that if I had been more careful and not revealed my total dig amount, people would not have caught on so quickly, and I could probably have made more BTC from my CLAMs. But as dooglus said, I was adding 500k clams to a total supply of 800k clams. The price will go down no matter what. If no one knew how many I had and I sold it real slow, the price might have gone down much slower. I would have made a lot more money, and a lot more people would have lost money.

Remember that CLAM price had a huge run up before I started digging. Clam had only 1 use case, which is JustDice. The price at that time was not sustainable. I saw that and decided to cash out at that time. I'm sure others saw it too and cashed out. Waves and waves of selling is not because of me. Of course, I added to the selling pressure by putting in limit sells above market. But that doesn't really matter, because once Dooglus revealed my total dig amount, the market started to panic. The price fairly quickly dropped to the new "true" price given the new information out there. I did not increase my selling. Actually, my selling strategy has remained unchanged since the beginning.

I have nothing against you, you have your own interests to take care and CLAM rules allowed you to dig and sell whenever you want.

Revealing your existence and the number of coins you own, in addition to your selling pressure, has probably been crucial for this price dump.

But the main question is what now? Where do we go from now? Cause if this the whole plan, you digging and dumping, I m afraid you wont have anyone to sell to. Cause I know I would not place a single satoshi as a buy order knowing the price s gonna go only down. Also, only a noob would enter the market now and buy so new people re out too. I know some people re gonna say I m sharing negative marketing to CLAM but I would not like for these noobs who enter PoS for the first time to come here and lose their money without even having a chance to profit. On the other hand, I would like CLAM to go down, ever. I hope you see my point, what do we do now? Where does CLAM go from here?

Not to mention the fact I hope you do plan to keep some of your CLAM to stake and profit from PoS in the future as well. So, dev team, community, where do we go from here? What is the way out? Sitting and doing nothing isnt cause one does not need to be a genius to figure out where all this is gonna end if nothing s being done.

Nothing fundamental has changed about CLAMs. It's going now the same place it was going before, the rate it was getting there has just been accelerated.

[smooth]

My prediction.

As long as the Just-Dice site remains successful and popular and continues to use CLAMs, the price will recover quickly. The lower price means that people will gamble larger numbers of CLAMs (this is already somewhat apparent on the site stats), which means it will be profitable to buy CLAMs for the purpose of putting them in the bankroll to back that higher volume of play. Ultimately most of the active supply will find its way into the bankroll, as it has before.

I expect the price to recover to around 0.002-0.003 before long, which is a 100-200% return from the current price. This opportunity won't be lost on investors. Capital will flow in, absorb the digger's coins (if he even chooses to sell them here -- I wouldn't) and then it will be business as usual, including pushing for more adoption and decentralization of CLAMs beyond JD which can take the price sustainably beyond the 0.003 level.

There is no need to panic, no need to start gutting the USP of the coin, nor running petitions to gut the USP of the coin. Just relax and focus on adoption. The price will take care of itself. If you are in a position to invest here, consider my previous paragraph carefully.

Obviously do your own research, understand risks, and don't invest based on what some idiot on an Internet forum wrote.

Nothing fundamental has changed about CLAMs. It's going now the same place it was going before, the rate it was getting there has just been accelerated.

Somewhat agree. Unfortunately what did change is that the episode revealed that many in this community, including unfortunately the lead developers, are not committed to the unique attributes of the coin and willing to throw all that under the bus as soon as people start crying about the price. That is a fundamental negative. Ideally they would walk some of that back, but even so the damage is done.

[rocoro]

What is USP ?  Unique selling point?

[SuperClam]

What is USP ?  Unique selling point?

In college, I was taught 'proposition'; but, basically the same I suppose.

[SuperClam]

...
Unfortunately what did change is that the episode revealed that many in this community, including unfortunately the lead developers, are not committed to the unique attributes of the coin and willing to throw all that under the bus as soon as people start crying about the price. That is a fundamental negative. Ideally they would walk some of that back, but even so the damage is done.

I disagree - though I am obviously a bit biased on this issue

There have been talks between xploited and I for months concerning distributed governance.
Likely at least since the idea of larger blocks came up as a widely debated issue in the BTC network.

The process we are preparing is essentially a means to establish support in the same way one would establish support for a soft-fork.

The difference is that our system will allow anyone to initiate the process, anyone to vote according to their stake in the network and have the data available before any development effort is spent on a proposal.
I believe this is a net boon for the network, and hence there is nothing to 'walk back'.


This a double-edged sword.

For instance: consider the conversation around privacy in the BTC network.
Getting such a change implemented into the BTC codebase may very well be difficult given the variety of parties, including governmental bodies, with interests in the network.

This would allow the users of CLAM, purely on their own initiative, to evangelize for such a change and prove the network supports it.

At that point, it does not matter what 'dev team' issues the update/code.
Support has been provably demonstrated, with no permission need.
With support proven, the success of the forking change can be considered more likely.

That is quite important, in my honest opinion.
It adds resilience.
It adds decentralization of development, in a fashion, though crippled at the moment with such a small community.