Bitcoin Forum
December 05, 2016, 04:51:54 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 [762] 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 ... 1560 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804664 times)
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 1974


View Profile
November 01, 2014, 04:48:48 PM
 #15221

...
As for the Blockstream guys, making a living off an open-source project is very common and most often benefits both the community and the clients who will pay them.  You may be serious in trying to spin this thing as something nefarious, but in that case you are just showing more of you ignorance.

The point is less that "it happens all the time", and more that SC are potentially competition for Bitcoin as much as they are collaboration with Bitcoin.
How many of your competition work in the core engine of your business, and how comfortable are you with that notion?

I strongly reject the premise that there is any 'competition' here.  Sidechains are to me (and have been since mid 2011) the natural progression of Bitcoin which will allow it to serve it's promise to the edges of it's userbase (free individuals) in a flexible way while preserving defense against those who would be threatened by such a solution and allowing it to adapt to meet the defensive challenges.  Put another way; to scale.


Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1480956714
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480956714

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480956714
Reply with quote  #2

1480956714
Report to moderator
Blitz­
Moderator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596


"Cut Your Loose"


View Profile
November 01, 2014, 04:56:43 PM
 #15222

simple theory question for all SC proponents.  so simple in fact what am i missing?

we have 13M BTC @ around $325.  SC comes along and lets say 3M BTC --> scBTC (just for illustration).  we know that the price of scBTC has to be lower given MM, newness, being unproven, risk of failure, etc.  let's say price starts off @ $100.

why don't arb bots circle back around and drive BTC price down to say $250-270 or whatever the equilibrium is btwn BTC and scBTC, which we know is lower?  multiply this by 1000 SC's.
I haven't kept up with the side chain hype. What's the mechanism of arbitrage here? How would you be able to profit off a price differential between this sidechain coin and bitcoin?

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 01, 2014, 04:58:15 PM
 #15223

simple theory question for all SC proponents.  so simple in fact what am i missing?

we have 13M BTC @ around $325.  SC comes along and lets say 3M BTC --> scBTC (just for illustration).  we know that the price of scBTC has to be lower given MM, newness, being unproven, risk of failure, etc.  let's say price starts off @ $100.

why don't arb bots circle back around and drive BTC price down to say $250-270 or whatever the equilibrium is btwn BTC and scBTC, which we know is lower?  multiply this by 1000 SC's.
I haven't kept up with the side chain hype. What's the mechanism of arbitrage here? How would you be able to profit off a price differential between this sidechain coin and bitcoin?

read up above
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:03:35 PM
 #15224

My point being there will be a motive to short the SC token.

great point.  the shorts will do this b/c they will recognize that the SC is less secure and more prone to failure.

as they drive the price of scBTC down, all those here who think the 1:1 peg demands that the price of 1 BTC= 1 scBTC will sell their BTC to follow.
Blitz­
Moderator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596


"Cut Your Loose"


View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:11:45 PM
 #15225

I read it but I feel like I'm missing something:

Quote
its a 2 way peg, so both BTC and scBTC can move freely back and forth.
Can you elaborate? How are the both to be pegged? How is the peg rate determined, and does it float?

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064



View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:13:05 PM
 #15226

let me put it in simple terms w/o numbers.

you're taking a chunk of coin off a very secure ledger and moving them over to a less secure ledger.  it's too be expected those coins moved will be worth less b/c they are now less secure.  

b/c of arbitrage, you can expect the moved coin to drag down the price of the not moved coin to a lower equilibrium.

But why will you move the coins in the first place???

for experimentation, speculation, stupidity, pump and dump, who knows?  we know it will occur.

But why will you sell them for a lower price instead of transfering them back to BTC?

you don't have to do anything.  the arb bots will take care of it for you.

What??? Someone have to sell the cheap coins?

do you seriously think that when a SC is first established on Day 1, 1 scBTC = 1 BTC in fiat terms?.  it can't be b/c of newness, less security, chance of failure, etc.  with time, as it proves itself, the arb bots will equilibrate the price but at a lower level b/c of the always present risk of failure of the SC.  the SC is not Bitcoin.  

"newness, less security, chance of failure, etc." is compensated with "increased utility"  so yes on Day 1, 1 scBTC = 1 BTC in is fiat terms and forever until SC crash.

another way to address your point is that a "theoretical" will never trump a "known".

we know MM is less secure than direct mining.  we don't know that a new untested "innovation" will counter weigh the value of less security.

MM is only one type of SC (it is good only for world wide use).  It is possible to use "oracle" for mining or ...  group of people at an island can use private SC with fixed difficulity (b/c they know each others) ... they can use their virtual currency, and this currency can be exchanged 1:1 bitcoin. They do not have to pay transaction fees if they agree and use only 1 confirmation (every 2 min).

any SC that employs security any less than MM is even less secure.  therefore, its scBTC will be valued even less.  the feedback thru arb bots will be to drag down BTC even more.

Alot of scBTC will be only valuable inside community what creates(and secure) them. But inside this community it will have value exactly 1 BTC. No matter what is your value. It is win : win strategy
a) they do not spam bitcoin network.
b) they do not pay transaction fees.

And it can be more secure than Bitcoin -> b/c those members can met in personally and build safe "oracle (timestamp server)" what will sign every transaction.
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 1974


View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:16:59 PM
 #15227

I read it but I feel like I'm missing something:

Quote
its a 2 way peg, so both BTC and scBTC can move freely back and forth.
Can you elaborate? How are the both to be pegged? How is the peg rate determined, and does it float?

The free market.  Shudder the thought.


Kupsi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1190


9.9.2012: I predict that single digits... <- FAIL


View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:18:18 PM
 #15228

My point being there will be a motive to short the SC token.

great point.  the shorts will do this b/c they will recognize that the SC is less secure and more prone to failure.

as they drive the price of scBTC down, all those here who think the 1:1 peg demands that the price of 1 BTC= 1 scBTC will sell their BTC to follow.

No one will try to short scBTC. If someone tried, people will buy the lower priced scBTC, transfer them to BTC and sell them for the real price.
Kupsi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1190


9.9.2012: I predict that single digits... <- FAIL


View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:20:06 PM
 #15229

I read it but I feel like I'm missing something:

Quote
its a 2 way peg, so both BTC and scBTC can move freely back and forth.
Can you elaborate? How are the both to be pegged? How is the peg rate determined, and does it float?

Since you are free to move coins between BTC and scBTC, the price will be the same. You don't sell scBTC for a lower price when you can transfer it back to BTC and sell it for the full price.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:21:13 PM
 #15230

My point being there will be a motive to short the SC token.

great point.  the shorts will do this b/c they will recognize that the SC is less secure and more prone to failure.

as they drive the price of scBTC down, all those here who think the 1:1 peg demands that the price of 1 BTC= 1 scBTC will sell their BTC to follow.

No one will try to short scBTC. If someone tried, people will buy the lower priced scBTC, transfer them to BTC and sell them for the real price.

let me put it in simple terms w/o numbers.

you're taking a chunk of coin off a very secure ledger and moving them over to a less secure ledger.  it's to be expected those coins moved will be worth less b/c they are now less secure. 

b/c of arbitrage, you can expect the moved coin to drag down the price of the not moved coin to a lower equilibrium.
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064



View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:26:54 PM
 #15231

My point being there will be a motive to short the SC token.

great point.  the shorts will do this b/c they will recognize that the SC is less secure and more prone to failure.

as they drive the price of scBTC down, all those here who think the 1:1 peg demands that the price of 1 BTC= 1 scBTC will sell their BTC to follow.

No one will try to short scBTC. If someone tried, people will buy the lower priced scBTC, transfer them to BTC and sell them for the real price.

let me put it in simple terms w/o numbers.

you're taking a chunk of coin off a very secure ledger and moving them over to a less secure ledger.  it's to be expected those coins moved will be worth less b/c they are now less secure. 

b/c of arbitrage, you can expect the moved coin to drag down the price of the not moved coin to a lower equilibrium.

I'll take your arguments only if you sell me your bitcoins for $100 or at least you find me somebody who sell. :-)
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:34:07 PM
 #15232

Alot of scBTC will be only valuable inside community what creates(and secure) them. But inside this community it will have value exactly 1 BTC. No matter what is your value. It is win : win strategy
a) they do not spam bitcoin network.
b) they do not pay transaction fees.

And it can be more secure than Bitcoin -> b/c those members can met in personally and build safe "oracle (timestamp server)" what will sign every transaction.

why use Bitcoin then?  you might as well use Berkshare Bucks if you want or desire such a centralized solution.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:35:00 PM
 #15233

My point being there will be a motive to short the SC token.

great point.  the shorts will do this b/c they will recognize that the SC is less secure and more prone to failure.

as they drive the price of scBTC down, all those here who think the 1:1 peg demands that the price of 1 BTC= 1 scBTC will sell their BTC to follow.

No one will try to short scBTC. If someone tried, people will buy the lower priced scBTC, transfer them to BTC and sell them for the real price.

let me put it in simple terms w/o numbers.

you're taking a chunk of coin off a very secure ledger and moving them over to a less secure ledger.  it's to be expected those coins moved will be worth less b/c they are now less secure. 

b/c of arbitrage, you can expect the moved coin to drag down the price of the not moved coin to a lower equilibrium.

I'll take your arguments only if you sell me your bitcoins for $100 or at least you find me somebody who sell. :-)

you can try to personalize this but it doesn't negate my generalized market based argument.
Blitz­
Moderator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596


"Cut Your Loose"


View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:37:23 PM
 #15234

I read it but I feel like I'm missing something:

Quote
its a 2 way peg, so both BTC and scBTC can move freely back and forth.
Can you elaborate? How are the both to be pegged? How is the peg rate determined, and does it float?

Since you are free to move coins between BTC and scBTC, the price will be the same. You don't sell scBTC for a lower price when you can transfer it back to BTC and sell it for the full price.
But how does this work? Is it just a way of destroying Bitcoins without actually destroying them (ie destroying Bitcoin and creating Sidecoins and vice versa creating Bitcoins and destroying Sidecoins, "converting" them 1:1) at the protocol level? I suppose cypherdoc's argument is that assuming Sidecoins will be valued less than Bitcoins of equal convertible value, people will be arbitraging that.

If I have understood correctly, then this doesn't seem a problem. To profit off this arbitrage, you need to buy Sidecoins (for USD say) and sell them for Bitcoins (selling those again). Thus the price has to rise to a level where friction prohibits arbitrage. It sounds like we're discussing a perpetuum mobile here. Either that, or I still misunderstand. Cheesy

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064



View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:38:45 PM
 #15235

Alot of scBTC will be only valuable inside community what creates(and secure) them. But inside this community it will have value exactly 1 BTC. No matter what is your value. It is win : win strategy
a) they do not spam bitcoin network.
b) they do not pay transaction fees.

And it can be more secure than Bitcoin -> b/c those members can met in personally and build safe "oracle (timestamp server)" what will sign every transaction.

why use Bitcoin then?  you might as well use Berkshare Bucks if you want or desire such a centralized solution.


b/c
advantage:
at the moment I need some utility (e.g. I want trade on exchange, I want buy cofe or gas) =>

I accept:
at the same moment I cannot make international transfers. I can only transact with small group who accepts SC (for some utility).
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:43:35 PM
 #15236

Alot of scBTC will be only valuable inside community what creates(and secure) them. But inside this community it will have value exactly 1 BTC. No matter what is your value. It is win : win strategy
a) they do not spam bitcoin network.
b) they do not pay transaction fees.

And it can be more secure than Bitcoin -> b/c those members can met in personally and build safe "oracle (timestamp server)" what will sign every transaction.

why use Bitcoin then?  you might as well use Berkshare Bucks if you want or desire such a centralized solution.


b/c
advantage:
at the moment I need some utility (e.g. I want trade on exchange, I want buy cofe or gas) =>

I accept:
at the same moment I cannot make international transfers. I can only transact with small group who accepts SC (for some utility).

well then, it's obvious you're putting your priorities and wants above those of the community in general.  in other words, you want the Bitcoin network to provide the security for your localized SC and you don't care if the price of BTC drops as a result.
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064



View Profile
November 01, 2014, 05:52:02 PM
 #15237

Alot of scBTC will be only valuable inside community what creates(and secure) them. But inside this community it will have value exactly 1 BTC. No matter what is your value. It is win : win strategy
a) they do not spam bitcoin network.
b) they do not pay transaction fees.

And it can be more secure than Bitcoin -> b/c those members can met in personally and build safe "oracle (timestamp server)" what will sign every transaction.

why use Bitcoin then?  you might as well use Berkshare Bucks if you want or desire such a centralized solution.


b/c
advantage:
at the moment I need some utility (e.g. I want trade on exchange, I want buy cofe or gas) =>

I accept:
at the same moment I cannot make international transfers. I can only transact with small group who accepts SC (for some utility).

well then, it's obvious you're putting your priorities and wants above those of the community in general.  in other words, you want the Bitcoin network to provide the security for your localized SC and you don't care if the price of BTC drops as a result.

if BTC drops as a result then same happens to scBTC. But I do not know why. The less BTC is available at MC the more scarce BTC are, and the more utility BTC can provide. SC does not print new money.

SC brings new utility. (value)
Kupsi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1190


9.9.2012: I predict that single digits... <- FAIL


View Profile
November 01, 2014, 06:01:37 PM
 #15238

I read it but I feel like I'm missing something:

Quote
its a 2 way peg, so both BTC and scBTC can move freely back and forth.
Can you elaborate? How are the both to be pegged? How is the peg rate determined, and does it float?

Since you are free to move coins between BTC and scBTC, the price will be the same. You don't sell scBTC for a lower price when you can transfer it back to BTC and sell it for the full price.
But how does this work? Is it just a way of destroying Bitcoins without actually destroying them (ie destroying Bitcoin and creating Sidecoins and vice versa creating Bitcoins and destroying Sidecoins, "converting" them 1:1) at the protocol level? I suppose cypherdoc's argument is that assuming Sidecoins will be valued less than Bitcoins of equal convertible value, people will be arbitraging that.

If I have understood correctly, then this doesn't seem a problem. To profit off this arbitrage, you need to buy Sidecoins (for USD say) and sell them for Bitcoins (selling those again). Thus the price has to rise to a level where friction prohibits arbitrage. It sounds like we're discussing a perpetuum mobile here. Either that, or I still misunderstand. Cheesy

You got it right.
molecular
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2128



View Profile
November 01, 2014, 06:07:04 PM
 #15239

let me put it in simple terms w/o numbers.

you're taking a chunk of coin off a very secure ledger and moving them over to a less secure ledger.  it's too be expected those coins moved will be worth less b/c they are now less secure. 

b/c of arbitrage, you can expect the moved coin to drag down the price of the not moved coin to a lower equilibrium.

But why will you move the coins in the first place???

for experimentation, speculation, stupidity, pump and dump, who knows?  we know it will occur.

But why will you sell them for a lower price instead of transfering them back to BTC?

you don't have to do anything.  the arb bots will take care of it for you.

What??? Someone have to sell the cheap coins?

do you seriously think that when a SC is first established on Day 1, 1 scBTC = 1 BTC in fiat terms?.  it can't be b/c of newness, less security, chance of failure, etc.  with time, as it proves itself, the arb bots will equilibrate the price but at a lower level b/c of the always present risk of failure of the SC.  the SC is not Bitcoin. 

I think there wont be a need for scBTC <-> fiat exchange. Since coins can be moved to main chain with low cost, it doesn't make much sense to directly trade sc/fiat, does it? As someone else put it: why would anyone sell scBTC when you can just move them back to BTC main chain?

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
molecular
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2128



View Profile
November 01, 2014, 06:10:14 PM
 #15240

simple theory question for all SC proponents.  so simple in fact what am i missing?

we have 13M BTC @ around $325.  SC comes along and lets say 3M BTC --> scBTC (just for illustration).  we know that the price of scBTC has to be lower given MM, newness, being unproven, risk of failure, etc.  let's say price starts off @ $100.

why don't arb bots circle back around and drive BTC price down to say $250-270 or whatever the equilibrium is btwn BTC and scBTC, which we know is lower?  multiply this by 1000 SC's.

Btc price would go up first, because lower monetary base in the proven old bitcoin block chain (13m -> 10m)

no, the BTC have just been transformed to lower value units, scBTC, b/c they have been moved to a less secure, unproven ledger.  this will drag down the BTC price to an equilibrium price btwn the two.

In order for the arb to work, the coins have to move back to the bitcoin blockchain.
The first app is a mixing service for stolen coins it is likely there will be arb opportunities and likely Bitcoin price will drop.

Why? People will just move dirty BTC to mixSCBTC, stirr well, and then move them back to mainchain, no?


PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
Pages: « 1 ... 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 [762] 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 ... 1560 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!