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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1907351 times)
cypherdoc
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November 05, 2014, 03:42:22 PM
 #15741


b/c there will always be some idiots who WILL value it. just look at altcoin valuations.  they're small but they're there and can be sold for fiat.  it would also be possible for the sidecoin to actually take off in value which would really be a huge bonus.


ok,

SC must provide some utility (eg. fast tx) to be useful.
and then somebody creates SC with same utility without "sidecoin" and sc-block-chain will have only 1/2 size (b/c he removes garbage).

When miner have limited resources then what chain will he prefer.
He can mine 4 useful chains(he can take profit) or only 2 with garbage.

sideZerocoin, for a Bitcoin miner currently losing money, would be an excellent speculative bet for directly mining sideZerocoin.

not only that, speculators would buy sideZerocoin on exchanges for cash establishing value to draw miners in.
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brg444
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November 05, 2014, 03:42:47 PM
 #15742

and you are simply economically illiterate. 

who says the price of the sidecoin has to be $0?  what if the sidecoin was sideZerocoin as in rocks example?  a speculator, like myself, would seriously buy up a bunch of sideZerocoin on an exchange for FIAT and that alone could drive the price sky high.

Maybe you're just playing stupid?

The price of the sidecoin is 0$ because no one uses it.

Answer that :

Who would you buy sideZerocoin when you have the option to use scZEROBTC on a 1:1 peg risk-free?

Do you realise there is NO reason for the sidecoin to exist if you can replicate the feature on a 1:1 scBTC

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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November 05, 2014, 03:45:37 PM
 #15743

and you are simply economically illiterate. 

who says the price of the sidecoin has to be $0?  what if the sidecoin was sideZerocoin as in rocks example?  a speculator, like myself, would seriously buy up a bunch of sideZerocoin on an exchange for FIAT and that alone could drive the price sky high.

Maybe you're just playing stupid?

The price of the sidecoin is 0$ because no one uses it.

Answer that :

Who would you buy sideZerocoin when you have the option to use scZEROBTC on a 1:1 peg risk-free?

Do you realise there is NO reason for the sidecoin to exist if you can replicate the feature on a 1:1 scBTC

define this:  scZEROBTC

are you saying another SC would arise once removed from MC?
brg444
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November 05, 2014, 03:45:53 PM
 #15744


b/c there will always be some idiots who WILL value it. just look at altcoin valuations.  they're small but they're there and can be sold for fiat.  it would also be possible for the sidecoin to actually take off in value which would really be a huge bonus.


ok,

SC must provide some utility (eg. fast tx) to be useful.
and then somebody creates SC with same utility without "sidecoin" and sc-block-chain will have only 1/2 size (b/c he removes garbage).


When miner have limited resources then what chain will he prefer.
He can mine 4 useful chains(he can take profit) or only 2 with garbage.

he just doesn't get it...

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Adrian-x
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November 05, 2014, 03:46:11 PM
 #15745

One could design a SC with a sidecoin plus a faster  tx time for scBTC, I think.

Which goes back to the question i had for you yesterday, is this possible?

Possible I guess, but let me spin the question around. Is this desirable?

Remember that in that scenario the sidecoin does NOT have the same value as the scBTC residing on the same chain.

Ok, we're making progres.  If it's possible then it's a given it will be done. And if it's done, miners WILL defect out of greed to the sc.  So now you'd have 2 drivers of the sc; users and miners. That will kill Bitcoi.  

 Roll Eyes

Why are you so conveniently ignoring the essential argument?

NO ONE CARES FOR A SIDECHAIN WITH A SIDECOIN. Users will NOT use it because it does not offer the risk-free put and if users do NOT use it then miners have no incentive to mine it.

maybe we're having a definitional misunderstanding?  as i understand it "sidecoin", as you've termed it, is an independent coin that can only be produced on the SC thru mining SC blocks for reward.  it cannot be interchanged with scBTC which is derived from BTC as a result of the 1:1 peg. and sidecoin can't travel thru the peg into the MC.  in this scenario, i envision both travelling securely within the SC, both being secured by MM or direct mining.  they will both be mined for tx fees on the SC and both can take advantage of faster tx times.

is this technically accurate and possible?  b/c if it is, then Bitcoin will die.  if it's not, then your argument is strengthened altho i still see problems.

Why would you transfer "sidecoin" when they have $0 value ?  You cannot transfer value using invaluable tokens.  It is like a want buy gold and you give me  gold + your garbage. How this garbage can add value to gold ?

Actually most still think it's gold it's paper gold you transact with it because it's better than gold in that you can move it faster.
It is inflationary. It works with a theoretical 1:1 peg and is discouraged with hi transaction fees.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
brg444
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November 05, 2014, 03:56:13 PM
 #15746


define this:  scZEROBTC

are you saying another SC would arise once removed from MC?

So we have two sidechains :

A sidechain using only 1:1 pegged unit. This unit offers whatever feature you want, faster tx or zerocoin type privacy.

A sidechain also using 1:1 pegged but issuing, for unknown reasons, a sidecoin. The sidecoin is not fungible with BTC or the scBTC. It has to create its own value. The problem with this chain is there is no interest for the user to use the sidecoin because : a. it offers no additional value than the scBTC on the same chain b. it offers no "risk-free put"

Which chain are people going to use?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Odalv
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November 05, 2014, 03:59:39 PM
 #15747


b/c there will always be some idiots who WILL value it. just look at altcoin valuations.  they're small but they're there and can be sold for fiat.  it would also be possible for the sidecoin to actually take off in value which would really be a huge bonus.


ok,

SC must provide some utility (eg. fast tx) to be useful.
and then somebody creates SC with same utility without "sidecoin" and sc-block-chain will have only 1/2 size (b/c he removes garbage).

When miner have limited resources then what chain will he prefer.
He can mine 4 useful chains(he can take profit) or only 2 with garbage.

sideZerocoin, for a Bitcoin miner currently losing money, would be an excellent speculative bet for directly mining sideZerocoin.

not only that, speculators would buy sideZerocoin on exchanges for cash establishing value to draw miners in.

but this blockchains can be separed into 2 chains.
1. chain will be with zeroBTC(1:1 btc) and 2. chain zeroCoin(altCoin)

If they are on same blockchain then it is exchange  betwen btc and zeroCoin.
We allready have  btc <-> alt-coin exchanges.
brg444
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November 05, 2014, 04:02:02 PM
 #15748

Actually most still think it's gold it's paper gold you transact with it because it's better than gold in that you can move it faster.
It is inflationary. It works with a theoretical 1:1 peg and is discouraged with hi transaction fees.

Not true at all. My gold can move as fast as your garbage.

The scBTC has the same feature as garbagecoin + risk-free put so I'm not gonna use garbage coin.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Odalv
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November 05, 2014, 05:01:53 PM
 #15749

Actually most still think it's gold it's paper gold you transact with it because it's better than gold in that you can move it faster.
It is inflationary. It works with a theoretical 1:1 peg and is discouraged with hi transaction fees.

Not true at all. My gold can move as fast as your garbage.

The scBTC has the same feature as garbagecoin + risk-free put so I'm not gonna use garbage coin.

I want to add.

There are miners, they transport gold.
There are users who use miners transport service.

1. Miner A - transports shit together with gold.
2. Miner B - transport gold in clean transporter.

User can choose, transport service (does he want gold dirty from shit ... maybe service is cheaper).
Miner must decide how to make more money.
brg444
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November 05, 2014, 05:05:13 PM
 #15750

Actually most still think it's gold it's paper gold you transact with it because it's better than gold in that you can move it faster.
It is inflationary. It works with a theoretical 1:1 peg and is discouraged with hi transaction fees.

Not true at all. My gold can move as fast as your garbage.

The scBTC has the same feature as garbagecoin + risk-free put so I'm not gonna use garbage coin.

I want to add.

There are miners, they transport gold.
There are users who use miners transport service.

1. Miner A - transports shit together with gold.
2. Miner B - transport gold in clean transporter.

User can choose, transport service (does he want gold dirty from shit ... maybe service is cheaper).
Miner must decide how to make more money.

That's a cool analogy but I think it is backward because users actually determine what good the miners will choose to transport. And no one wants shit stained gold

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
tvbcof
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November 05, 2014, 05:05:27 PM
 #15751

Gold collapsing, Bitcoin UP!

Yay!
I guess you have fun with your PM shorts recently. Wink

I closed them out one dump too soon but that's ok. Ive made  plenty off of tvbcof already. 

You bought some of the BTC I sold up around $1000?  Nicely played!

I know you didn't impact my phyz since it is safe and secure.  It hasn't moved since I bought it (last batch in the mid-late 00's) and I don't expect it to for another decade or two.


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November 05, 2014, 05:12:16 PM
 #15752

Actually most still think it's gold it's paper gold you transact with it because it's better than gold in that you can move it faster.
It is inflationary. It works with a theoretical 1:1 peg and is discouraged with hi transaction fees.

Not true at all. My gold can move as fast as your garbage.

The scBTC has the same feature as garbagecoin + risk-free put so I'm not gonna use garbage coin.

I'm ignorant here how does one move physical gold as fast as a paper receipt or digital proof of it in electronic form.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Blitz­
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November 05, 2014, 05:15:27 PM
 #15753

Bitcoin UP!

Surely this has something to do with Sidechains. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
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November 05, 2014, 05:16:48 PM
 #15754

Gold collapsing, Bitcoin UP!

Yay!
I guess you have fun with your PM shorts recently. Wink

I closed them out one dump too soon but that's ok. Ive made  plenty off of tvbcof already. 

You bought some of the BTC I sold up around $1000?  Nicely played!

I know you didn't impact my phyz since it is safe and secure.  It hasn't moved since I bought it (last batch in the mid-late 00's) and I don't expect it to for another decade or two.



I think you guys are deluding yourselves. Once the gold is in a central repository no one moves it unless it is necessary,  people just swap the paper recipes.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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November 05, 2014, 05:19:51 PM
 #15755


define this:  scZEROBTC

are you saying another SC would arise once removed from MC?

So we have two sidechains :

A sidechain using only 1:1 pegged unit. This unit offers whatever feature you want, faster tx or zerocoin type privacy.

A sidechain also using 1:1 pegged but issuing, for unknown reasons, a sidecoin. The sidecoin is not fungible with BTC or the scBTC. It has to create its own value. The problem with this chain is there is no interest for the user to use the sidecoin because : a. it offers no additional value than the scBTC on the same chain b. it offers no "risk-free put"

Which chain are people going to use?

why wouldn't a new investor buy scZC on a fiat exchange?  why wouldn't a miner want to not only mine tx fees for scBTC as well as mine scZC block rewards + scZC tx fees?

don't say there is no one "using" scZC.  Bitcoin's price started out at $0 when no one was "using" it.  look what happened to it.
cypherdoc
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November 05, 2014, 05:20:50 PM
 #15756

Bitcoin UP!

Surely this has something to do with Sidechains. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

or in spite of.  for now.
sickpig
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November 05, 2014, 05:28:23 PM
 #15757

Bitcoin UP!

Surely this has something to do with Sidechains. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You're way too fast, I was planning to post the same as soon as btc start rise again, but you bit me :/ Smiley

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
brg444
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November 05, 2014, 05:28:48 PM
 #15758

why wouldn't a new investor buy scZC on a fiat exchange?  why wouldn't a miner want to not only mine tx fees for scBTC as well as mine scZC block rewards + scZC tx fees?

don't say there is no one "using" scZC.  Bitcoin's price started out at $0 when no one was "using" it.  look what happened to it.

Why? Because it's essentially a new alt coin. How is the actual zerocoin doing? Any miners bothered merged mining it?

The new investor can either buy the scZC and expose himself to all the risks or buy BTC and use the scBTC zerocoin feature pegged 1:1 with the risk-free put.

Which one would you use?

Sidechains are there to create new applications/features that are not possible on the Bitcoin chain. There's no reason why you would create a sidecoin on top because it defeats the whole purpose of the 2wp.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Blitz­
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November 05, 2014, 05:31:47 PM
 #15759

Bitcoin UP!

Surely this has something to do with Sidechains. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

or in spite of.  for now.
You're worrying too much/overthinking it/seeing shadows IMO. If we had a couple more months without a new low, would you be as concerned?

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
brg444
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November 05, 2014, 05:33:48 PM
 #15760

why wouldn't a new investor buy scZC on a fiat exchange?  why wouldn't a miner want to not only mine tx fees for scBTC as well as mine scZC block rewards + scZC tx fees?

don't say there is no one "using" scZC.  Bitcoin's price started out at $0 when no one was "using" it.  look what happened to it.

Quote
A second problem is that such altchains, like Bitcoin, typically have their own native
cryptocurrency, or altcoin, with a floating price. To access the altchain, users must use a market to
obtain this currency, exposing them to the high risk and volatility associated with new currencies.
Further, the requirement to independently solve the problems of initial distribution and valuation,
while at the same time contending with adverse network effects and a crowded market, discourages
technical innovation while at the same time encouraging market games. This is dangerous not only
100 to those directly participating in these systems, but also to the cryptocurrency industry as a whole.
If the field is seen as too risky by the public, adoption may be hampered, or cryptocurrencies might
be deserted entirely (voluntarily or legislatively)

By creating a sidecoin booted on top of a sidechain you basically reintroduce this problem.

Do you see why when the option exist to enable different features BUT with a risk-averse 2wp, then automatically the market will congregate toward that option and ignore any similar attempt using sidecoins?

Unless of course you want to speculate on pump and dump shitcoins. That's not gonna stop some people from doing that but sidechains do not introduce that problem

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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