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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1979514 times)
sickpig
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November 05, 2014, 05:40:23 PM
 #15741


define this:  scZEROBTC

are you saying another SC would arise once removed from MC?

So we have two sidechains :

A sidechain using only 1:1 pegged unit. This unit offers whatever feature you want, faster tx or zerocoin type privacy.

A sidechain also using 1:1 pegged but issuing, for unknown reasons, a sidecoin. The sidecoin is not fungible with BTC or the scBTC. It has to create its own value. The problem with this chain is there is no interest for the user to use the sidecoin because : a. it offers no additional value than the scBTC on the same chain b. it offers no "risk-free put"

Which chain are people going to use?

why wouldn't a new investor buy scZC on a fiat exchange?  why wouldn't a miner want to not only mine tx fees for scBTC as well as mine scZC block rewards + scZC tx fees?

don't say there is no one "using" scZC.  Bitcoin's price started out at $0 when no one was "using" it.  look what happened to it.

You serious? Are you really comparing btc with this hypothetical scZC?

Btc incubation period was at least a decade long. The amount of innovation in the bitcoin project is huge, but more to the point the reasons why such an hypothetical  sidechain would die young are the same reasons why no other altcoin has already supplanted btc.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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brg444
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November 05, 2014, 05:44:12 PM
 #15742

why wouldn't a new investor buy scZC on a fiat exchange?  why wouldn't a miner want to not only mine tx fees for scBTC as well as mine scZC block rewards + scZC tx fees?

don't say there is no one "using" scZC.  Bitcoin's price started out at $0 when no one was "using" it.  look what happened to it.

Why? Because it's essentially a new alt coin. How is the actual zerocoin doing? Any miners bothered merged mining it?

The new investor can either buy the scZC and expose himself to all the risks or buy BTC and use the scBTC zerocoin feature pegged 1:1 with the risk-free put.

Which one would you use?

Sidechains are there to create new applications/features that are not possible on the Bitcoin chain. There's no reason why you would create a sidecoin on top because it defeats the whole purpose of the 2wp.



if the scZC is priced at, let's say $0.006/scZC compared to $342/BTC, i would buy the coin with the greater upside (scZC) that has the same anonymity feature as scBTC since the SC has MM for security with actual direct mining from small miners defecting.

 Cheesy

Miners do not mergemine shitchain.

You're so dishonest in your arguments it is mind blowing. There is no "greater upside". The upside is in using the coin with the biggest liquidity and network effect. Of course speculators are gonna speculate but the market will go for the risk-free put if it wants to protect the value of its investment while using a particular feature.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 05:47:22 PM
 #15743

You serious? Are you really comparing btc with this hypothetical scZC?

Btc incubation period was at least a decade long. The amount of innovation in the bitcoin project is huge, but more to the point the reasons why such an hypothetical  sidechain would die young are the same reasons why no other altcoin has already supplanted btc.

He doesn't understand that sidecoin = altcoin.

He can't comprehend why there is no more incentive for miners to merge mine or smaller miners to direct mine sidecoins than regular altcoins.

He doesn't want to admit that the market wants to protect the value of their investment and make it possible to use new features : the essence of sidechains.

Or maybe he does, but he is so disingenuous he will not admit it.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
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November 05, 2014, 05:48:39 PM
 #15744

Sidechains are there to create new applications/features that are not possible on the Bitcoin chain. There's no reason why you would create a sidecoin on top because it defeats the whole purpose of the 2wp.
Unless that is the reason.

 Roll Eyes

An inferior shitcoin will defeat the superior option of risk-averse 2wp?

Do you realise what you are saying here?


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 05:59:27 PM
 #15745

Sidechains are there to create new applications/features that are not possible on the Bitcoin chain. There's no reason why you would create a sidecoin on top because it defeats the whole purpose of the 2wp.
Unless that is the reason.

 Roll Eyes

An inferior shitcoin will defeat the superior option of risk-averse 2wp?

Do you realise what you are saying here?



my assumption is that the sidecoin, whatever it is, may offer features with greater appeal than Bitcoin itself.  scZC is a good example as it might give perfect anonymity.  and if it's paired with faster tx times for both scZC and scBTC, then yes, alot of ppl should be attracted to it including miners.  especially if the block rewards are being given out in the form of scZC.
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November 05, 2014, 06:01:25 PM
 #15746

He doesn't want to admit that the market wants to protect the value of their investment

when you say this do you realize that you're only talking about Bitcoiners?

a SC can be created by anyone with any utility or an agenda, like scZC, or even scGOV.  
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November 05, 2014, 06:03:21 PM
 #15747

why wouldn't a new investor buy scZC on a fiat exchange?  why wouldn't a miner want to not only mine tx fees for scBTC as well as mine scZC block rewards + scZC tx fees?

don't say there is no one "using" scZC.  Bitcoin's price started out at $0 when no one was "using" it.  look what happened to it.

Why? Because it's essentially a new alt coin. How is the actual zerocoin doing? Any miners bothered merged mining it?

The new investor can either buy the scZC and expose himself to all the risks or buy BTC and use the scBTC zerocoin feature pegged 1:1 with the risk-free put.

Which one would you use?

Sidechains are there to create new applications/features that are not possible on the Bitcoin chain. There's no reason why you would create a sidecoin on top because it defeats the whole purpose of the 2wp.



if the scZC is priced at, let's say $0.006/scZC compared to $342/BTC, i would buy the coin with the greater upside (scZC) that has the same anonymity feature as scBTC since the SC has MM for security with actual direct mining from small miners defecting.

 Cheesy

Miners do not mergemine shitchain.

You're so dishonest in your arguments it is mind blowing. There is no "greater upside". The upside is in using the coin with the biggest liquidity and network effect. Of course speculators are gonna speculate but the market will go for the risk-free put if it wants to protect the value of its investment while using a particular feature.



again, when you say "market" you're confining your definition perspective to that of Bitcoiners only.  other ppl/entities with other agendas will look at this totally differently.
brg444
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November 05, 2014, 06:11:17 PM
 #15748

my assumption is that the sidecoin, whatever it is, may offer features with greater appeal than Bitcoin itself.  scZC is a good example as it might give perfect anonymity.  and if it's paired with faster tx times for both scZC and scBTC, then yes, alot of ppl should be attracted to it including miners.  especially if the block rewards are being given out in the form of scZC.

But sidecoin with feature is competing with scBTC with the same feature, greater market acceptance, more liquidity, bigger network effect.

Sidecoin reintroduces risk of greater volatility, sketchy distribution and likely inferior network security.

Sidecoin = altcoin

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 06:15:26 PM
 #15749

He doesn't want to admit that the market wants to protect the value of their investment

when you say this do you realize that you're only talking about Bitcoiners?

a SC can be created by anyone with any utility or an agenda, like scZC, or even scGOV.  

And your bet is that these altcoins are going to catch up to Bitcoin's network effect because?

(please don't say they have more innovative features, Bitcoin has these same features through its 2wp 1:1 sidechains)

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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November 05, 2014, 06:16:04 PM
 #15750

my assumption is that the sidecoin, whatever it is, may offer features with greater appeal than Bitcoin itself.  scZC is a good example as it might give perfect anonymity.  and if it's paired with faster tx times for both scZC and scBTC, then yes, alot of ppl should be attracted to it including miners.  especially if the block rewards are being given out in the form of scZC.

But sidecoin with feature is competing with scBTC with the same feature, greater market acceptance, more liquidity, bigger network effect.

Sidecoin reintroduces risk of greater volatility, sketchy distribution and likely inferior network security.

Sidecoin = altcoin

yes it is competing. but if scZC is only $0.006/scZC vs $340/scBTC and ppl like me like perfect anonymity but don't want to pay $340/scBTC, i will buy the $0.006/scZC with fiat on an exchange.

and once scZC establishes a value, miners will be encouraged to direct mine or MM.
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November 05, 2014, 06:17:11 PM
 #15751

again, when you say "market" you're confining your definition perspective to that of Bitcoiners only.  other ppl/entities with other agendas will look at this totally differently.

other ppl/entities have been trying to disrupt Bitcoin's market leading position for quite some time now. so far they have failed quite spectacularly. how is sidechains helping them again?

(please don't say merged mining)

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 06:20:55 PM
 #15752

Unless that is the reason.
I swear I saw a post once where one of the wallet developers (Hivewallet???) announced it was his personal and professional goal to break the limited issuance of Bitcoin as a currency.
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November 05, 2014, 06:23:13 PM
 #15753

yes it is competing. but if scZC is only $0.006/scZC vs $340/scBTC and ppl like me like perfect anonymity but don't want to pay $340/scBTC, i will buy the $0.006/scZC with fiat on an exchange.

and once scZC establishes a value, miners will be encouraged to direct mine or MM.

So finally you admit that miners will not care to mine or MM a shitsidecoin with no market acceptance/value.

Therefore you propose that some users will prefer storing their value in a sideshitcoin that is more volatile, less risk-averse, less secure and has no distinct feature.

 Roll Eyes

btw you can buy Monero right now, perfect anonymity, and you only have to pay a fraction of BTC's price, a real bargain! don't lose your chance!

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 06:24:43 PM
 #15754

Unless that is the reason.
I swear I saw a post once where one of the wallet developers (Hivewallet???) announced it was his personal and professional goal to break the limited issuance of Bitcoin as a currency.

Well good luck to those party pooper going against the mass of people who want to preserve it

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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November 05, 2014, 06:24:44 PM
 #15755

again, when you say "market" you're confining your definition perspective to that of Bitcoiners only.  other ppl/entities with other agendas will look at this totally differently.

other ppl/entities have been trying to disrupt Bitcoin's market leading position for quite some time now. so far they have failed quite spectacularly. how is sidechains helping them again?

(please don't say merged mining)

mainly by breaking the inextricable linkage btwn the BTC currency unit and its blockchain, the MC.  it allows all these games we've been discussing for the last few dozens of pages to be played.
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November 05, 2014, 06:26:08 PM
 #15756

mainly by breaking the inextricable linkage btwn the BTC currency unit and its blockchain, the MC.  it allows all these games we've been discussing for the last few dozens of pages to be played.

So you're saying altcoins are going to take over because it is potentially easier to transfer BTC to sidechains than it is to buy them on exchange?

That's not a very good argument

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 06:28:48 PM
 #15757

yes it is competing. but if scZC is only $0.006/scZC vs $340/scBTC and ppl like me like perfect anonymity but don't want to pay $340/scBTC, i will buy the $0.006/scZC with fiat on an exchange.

and once scZC establishes a value, miners will be encouraged to direct mine or MM.

So finally you admit that miners will not care to mine or MM a shitsidecoin with no market acceptance/value.

so instead of giving me a rational argument about why my above scenario is wrong, you'd rather deflect the issue?
any nowhere did i say that miners will not care to mine or MM this scZC.  i said the opposite, they would be encouraged to mine or MM it.
Quote
Therefore you propose that some users will prefer storing their value in a sideshitcoin that is more volatile, less risk-averse, less secure and has no distinct feature.

the scBTC have no every reason to store on scZC b/c of the risk free put.  and the miners have every reason to mine or MM scZC b/c of the extra block rewards and tx fees from both scZC and scBTC.
Quote
Roll Eyes

btw you can buy Monero right now, perfect anonymity, and you only have to pay a fraction of BTC's price, a real bargain! don't lose your chance!
Peter R
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November 05, 2014, 06:29:33 PM
 #15758

If you've been following the pre-sidechain discussions in this thread about money as a ledger and the inseparability of currency from the Blockchain, you'll recognize the irony in this CoinDesk article about lighter regulations for "non-financial use of blockchain technology":

http://www.coindesk.com/lawsky-non-financial-block-chain-projects-exempt-current-bitlicense/

However untrue it may be, I'm starting to see that the meme "blockchain technology has a bright future but the currency-aspect is dubious" is actually in our benefit.  I'm rolling with it  Cheesy.  People can accept this premise much easier and thereby recognize the importance of the Network and the Blockchain.  

Of course this meme is a Trojan horse.  Once one has accepted the importance of a decentralized, trustless, and unforgeable ledger, it's a much smaller step to realize that our most important records (and also the one's most tempting to alter) should be stored on that ledger.  These records are money itself. Bitcoin will force the world to re-learn what money is...  

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
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November 05, 2014, 06:35:20 PM
 #15759

If you've been following the pre-sidechain discussions in this thread about money as a ledger and the inseparability of currency from the Blockchain, you'll recognize the irony in this CoinDesk article about lighter regulations for "non-financial use of blockchain technology":

http://www.coindesk.com/lawsky-non-financial-block-chain-projects-exempt-current-bitlicense/

However untrue it may be, I'm starting to see that the meme "blockchain technology has a bright future but the currency-aspect is dubious" is actually in our benefit.  I'm rolling with it  Cheesy.  People can accept this premise much easier and thereby recognize the importance of the Network and the Blockchain.  

Of course this meme is a Trojan horse.  Once one has accepted the importance of a decentralized, trustless, and unforgeable ledger, it's a much smaller step to realize that our most important records (and also the one's most tempting to alter) should be stored on that ledger.  These records are money itself. Bitcoin will force the world to re-learn what money is...  

Well put as usual Peter. This is along the same lines as Apple Pay, which is a great product in the sense that it will get the general population accustomed to using their smartphone as a wallet. It will eventually help Bitcoin adoption, it can't  compete (or at least won't win) because it is orders of magnitude less efficient by design.
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November 05, 2014, 06:39:08 PM
 #15760

Of course this meme is a Trojan horse.  Once one has accepted the importance of a decentralized, trustless, and unforgeable ledger, it's a much smaller step to realize that our most important records (and also the one's most tempting to alter) should be stored on that ledger.  These records are money itself. Bitcoin will force the world to re-learn what money is...  
The largest risk of that strategy is underestimating the intelligence of whomever the Trojan horse is supposed to fool.
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