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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1807454 times)
tvbcof
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October 31, 2014, 12:57:23 AM
 #15061

Using a properly implemented sidechain IS using Bitcoin.
+1

you sure are one desperate dude.

You sure are one scared dude.  Why would that be???


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October 31, 2014, 12:57:48 AM
 #15062


 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

my man, I have to say you almost had me. I, for one second, had the impression I was conversing with a smart fellow. You should be ashamed of such deception.

your argument is GOVcoin, with inflationary features and corporate sponsors will kill Bitcoin?

well my friend, this is the beauty of cryptocurrency. the democracy of money, where people vote with their $ (or BTC) and may the best man win.

let them have their attempt at GOVcoin and the free market will decide who the winner is.

I, for one, will have no part in it but I wish them luck. they will need lots of it.

I only half joke, but seriously SC are the technical manifestation of "the blckchain the ledger is separate from Bitcoin the currency."

Who can predict how this ends and what SC will manifest.
If money is memory then the ledger is the money.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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October 31, 2014, 12:58:53 AM
 #15063


 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

my man, I have to say you almost had me. I, for one second, had the impression I was conversing with a smart fellow. You should be ashamed of such deception.

your argument is GOVcoin, with inflationary features and corporate sponsors will kill Bitcoin?

well my friend, this is the beauty of cryptocurrency. the democracy of money, where people vote with their $ (or BTC) and may the best man win.

let them have their attempt at GOVcoin and the free market will decide who the winner is.

I, for one, will have no part in it but I wish them luck. they will need lots of it.

I only half joke, but seriously SC are the technical manifestation of "the blckchain the ledger is separate from Bitcoin the currency."

Who can predict how this ends and what SC will manifest.
If money is memory then the ledger is the money.


yep, +1
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October 31, 2014, 01:00:18 AM
 #15064


I'm going to quote Justus again  Smiley
Currencies only have value if people use them, so there is no way for Bitcoin to have / behave as a store of value in the long term except as a direct consequence of its use as a medium of exchange.
...

Using a properly implemented sidechain IS using Bitcoin.



+1

you sure are one desperate dude.

justusranvier: Fundamental misconception here. The urge to hold, and only that, is the source of the value of money. The demand and supply are the wish to hold (expressed as bid for bitcoins on an exchange or elsewhere) and the wish to hold less (as expressed as bid for fiat on an exchange or a bid for some good).

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October 31, 2014, 01:02:30 AM
 #15065

I only half joke, but seriously SC are the technical manifestation of "the blckchain the ledger is separate from Bitcoin the currency."

Who can predict how this ends and what SC will manifest.
If money is memory then the ledger is the money.


The ledger is shared between chains. Sidechains are digital fiat to Bitcoin's gold. Only with the advantage of no counterparty risk and therefore no central bank inflation.

I will predict that no matter how this end, there will forever be a limited supply cryptocurrency as long as there are libertarians walking the earth.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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October 31, 2014, 01:04:12 AM
 #15066

I still need to understand how, to me it looks like using ones Bitcoin as collateral while one uses a SC's utility.

well technically this is what it is. but being that the peg is 1:1 and that they are utility chains that are application specific, their value will mirror BTC's. this does not make them fungible : as others have pointed out and as is properly explained in Konrad Graf's paper, various cost, risks and uncertainties will initially create a likely discount of the BTCpeg (if it were to be traded on the open market, for example). in all likelyhood though, market maturity, infrastructure reinforcement and arbitrage should help narrow that gap significantly in the long term.


My understanding is a 1:1 peg is optional. And there is no mention of pegging the block rewards which would also be required to maintain a 1:1 pegged relationship.

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October 31, 2014, 01:07:47 AM
 #15067

I only half joke, but seriously SC are the technical manifestation of "the blckchain the ledger is separate from Bitcoin the currency."

Who can predict how this ends and what SC will manifest.
If money is memory then the ledger is the money.


The ledger is shared between chains. Sidechains are digital fiat to Bitcoin's gold. Only with the advantage of no counterparty risk and therefore no central bank inflation.

I will predict that no matter how this end, there will forever be a limited supply cryptocurrency as long as there are libertarians walking the earth.

no, they are distinct ledgers with different properties +/- a sidecoin.  the SC initially will be inherently weaker and therefore less secure from MM.  this is a given since not all miners will agree to MM the SC.  they are not shared when firewalled off from one another.
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October 31, 2014, 01:08:30 AM
 #15068


My understanding is a 1:1 peg is optional. And there is no mention of pegging the block rewards which would also be required to maintain a 1:1 pegged relationship.


1:1 is optional indeed but then the sidechain is no more a BTC application specific chain but a sidecoin, the younger brother of the altcoin.

Pegging the block reward? I think this explains your misunderstanding.

A 1:1 sidechain is not created with any unit in it. There are no block reward issued coins on a 1:1 sidechain, only coins that are locked by their owners in that chain.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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October 31, 2014, 01:10:56 AM
 #15069

There are no block reward issued coins on a 1:1 sidechain, only coins that are locked by their owners in that chain.

it doesn't have to be that way.

which is precisely why SC's are a prelude to a shit fest with all sorts of blossoming SC's even worse than the altcoin explosion.
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October 31, 2014, 01:11:14 AM
 #15070

I only half joke, but seriously SC are the technical manifestation of "the blckchain the ledger is separate from Bitcoin the currency."

Who can predict how this ends and what SC will manifest.
If money is memory then the ledger is the money.


The ledger is shared between chains. Sidechains are digital fiat to Bitcoin's gold. Only with the advantage of no counterparty risk and therefore no central bank inflation.

I will predict that no matter how this end, there will forever be a limited supply cryptocurrency as long as there are libertarians walking the earth.

no, they are distinct ledgers with different properties +/- a sidecoin.  the SC initially will be inherently weaker and therefore less secure from MM.  this is a given since not all miners will agree to MM the SC.  they are not shared when firewalled off from one another.

sorry, you are right. that was indeed an incorrect statement.

the ledger is not shared between sidechains but all 1:1 sidechains abide by its entries.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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October 31, 2014, 01:13:00 AM
 #15071

I only half joke, but seriously SC are the technical manifestation of "the blckchain the ledger is separate from Bitcoin the currency."

Who can predict how this ends and what SC will manifest.
If money is memory then the ledger is the money.


The ledger is shared between chains. Sidechains are digital fiat to Bitcoin's gold. Only with the advantage of no counterparty risk and therefore no central bank inflation.

I will predict that no matter how this end, there will forever be a limited supply cryptocurrency as long as there are libertarians walking the earth.

no, they are distinct ledgers with different properties +/- a sidecoin.  the SC initially will be inherently weaker and therefore less secure from MM.  this is a given since not all miners will agree to MM the SC.  they are not shared when firewalled off from one another.

sorry, you are right. that was indeed an incorrect statement.

the ledger is not shared between sidechains but all 1:1 sidechains abide by its entries.

no offense.  but one could mistake you for a gmax sock puppet given the pervasiveness of your posts.  you're everywhere with everyone.
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October 31, 2014, 01:15:09 AM
 #15072

There are no block reward issued coins on a 1:1 sidechain, only coins that are locked by their owners in that chain.

it doesn't have to be that way.

which is precisely why SC's are a prelude to a shit fest with all sorts of blossoming SC's even worse than the altcoin explosion.

 Lips sealed

I know!

But to be honest I couldn't care less about this. Scammers will scam and speculators, suckers and fools will lose money. Sidechain doesn't enable them. In reality it confronts them with the question I have presented before : now that 1:1 sidechains exist, what is so special about the features you are proposing that they need their own coin to function, because the guy next door is doing just the same thing BUT on a 1:1 peg.

If they answer me like smooth believe they will : "because I want it to be so". Then F*** them, I'll buy from your neighbour at the 1:1 shop, there's MUCH less risk.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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October 31, 2014, 01:16:32 AM
 #15073

no offense.  but one could mistake you for a gmax sock puppet given the pervasiveness of your posts.  you're everywhere with everyone.

you complain even when I admit I was wrong?  Cry

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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October 31, 2014, 01:20:27 AM
 #15074

no offense.  but one could mistake you for a gmax sock puppet given the pervasiveness of your posts.  you're everywhere with everyone.

you complain even when I admit I was wrong?  Cry

that wasn't a response to your admission.

it's just that you popped up here in this thread with a vengeance the day the whitepaper was released and have countered every single one of my posts and any other negative post in this thread.

it's odd b/c i know for a fact that the Blockstream ppl knew ahead of time i was going to be trouble given my vocalness about SC's going back months to its original announcement.  in that sense, i'm not surprised by someone like you popping up here.

but geez, you are persistent!  you'd think alot of money was involved!
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October 31, 2014, 01:27:49 AM
 #15075

looking forward to tomorrow's end of the week for gold, you can see we are going to generate a weekly/intermediate term sell signal, already.  that's really bad for gold and even weaker than i expected as you all know i covered my gold and silver shorts (ZSL & DZZ) right before the very short term bounce (weep).  in fact, you can see a very bearish large, multi month descending triangle forming:

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October 31, 2014, 01:33:17 AM
 #15076

that wasn't a response to your admission.

it's just that you popped up here in this thread with a vengeance the day the whitepaper was released and have countered every single one of my posts and any other negative post in this thread.

it's odd b/c i know for a fact that the Blockstream ppl knew ahead of time i was going to be trouble given my vocalness about SC's going back months to its original announcement.  in that sense, i'm not surprised by someone like you popping up here.

but geez, you are persistent!  you'd think alot of money was involved!

oh come on now.

if you really wanna know I'm 24, I have a pretty shitty job right now and close to all of my personal wealth is in BTC at the moment so if for a second I thought sidechains would be a menace to Bitcoin I for sure as hell wouldn't be "defending" it. because indeed "alot of money is involved"

you are right that I rarely show up to comment in this thread, that's cause I mostly prefer to lurk and most of the time I agree with the content being discussed here.

but when it comes to the truth and fighting off misinformation I can indeed be very persistent. I don't think you're generally ill intented but I found discomfort and unfairness in your witchhunt so I had to address it. What I realize is most of your arguments all boiled down to misunderstanding of the new dynamics at stake. Which is okay, because I admittedly have made a couple of ignorant mistakes myself throughtout the argument. Fortunately, this whole discussion has been very educational for me and for that I am god honest thankful to you and everyone who has been participating.

just to fuel your paranoia though I have to say I'll be in Montreal tomorrow. you know where Blockstream is incorporated right  Wink

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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October 31, 2014, 01:39:42 AM
 #15077

that wasn't a response to your admission.

it's just that you popped up here in this thread with a vengeance the day the whitepaper was released and have countered every single one of my posts and any other negative post in this thread.

it's odd b/c i know for a fact that the Blockstream ppl knew ahead of time i was going to be trouble given my vocalness about SC's going back months to its original announcement.  in that sense, i'm not surprised by someone like you popping up here.

but geez, you are persistent!  you'd think alot of money was involved!

oh come on now.

if you really wanna know I'm 24, I have a pretty shitty job right now and close to all of my personal wealth is in BTC at the moment so if for a second I thought sidechains would be a menace to Bitcoin I for sure as hell wouldn't be "defending" it. because indeed "alot of money is involved"

you are right that I rarely show up to comment in this thread, that's cause I mostly prefer to lurk and most of the time I agree with the content being discussed here.

but when it comes to the truth and fighting off misinformation I can indeed be very persistent. I don't think you're generally ill intented but I found discomfort and unfairness in your witchhunt so I had to address it. What I realize is most of your arguments all boiled down to misunderstanding of the new dynamics at stake. Which is okay, because I admittedly have made a couple of ignorant mistakes myself throughtout the argument. Fortunately, this whole discussion has been very educational for me and for that I am god honest thankful to you and everyone who has been participating.

just to fuel your paranoia though I have to say I'll be in Montreal tomorrow. you know where Blockstream is incorporated right  Wink

well, if that's all true, they should consider hiring you for marketing.
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October 31, 2014, 01:41:22 AM
 #15078

well, if that's all true, they should consider hiring you for marketing.

Well to be honest I won't act like I would say no  Cheesy

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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October 31, 2014, 01:44:30 AM
 #15079

well, if that's all true, they should consider hiring you for marketing.

Well to be honest I won't act like I would say no  Cheesy

you could use this thread as your resume.
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October 31, 2014, 01:46:17 AM
 #15080

Instead of fearing what sidechains might do to bitcoin's value proposition, let's take a look at what is broken and how sidechains could help.  What has been the lesson of software monoculture time and time again?  Software monoculture increases the attack potential by ensuring high value for any found bugs/attacks.  This is right in line with the reasons for decentralization in the first place.  Worse than at a software level (which is actually fairly diverse and getting better), Bitcoin relying on one public key curve with a single set of parameters, with one single hashing algorithm used for mining is a disaster looking for a place to happen.  Sidechains would allow for innovative new ways of locking and unlocking coins according to more complex scripts, without exposing bitcoin itself to a turing complete scripting system.  Bitcoin miners merely have to check that you have an SPV proof that goes back to the hash you provided when locked the coins and allow time for someone to contest it with a higher value SPV proof.  The sidechain itself can implement different cryptography, time locking with m-of-n early release capability, smart contracts, or many other possible innovations.  Bitcoin will remain the backbone value and transactional network, while we will be able to use our bitcoins in new and exciting ways without needing to resort to centralized services to implement these features for us.

Enough FUD, if you're that insecure about your bitcoin position, I suggest you sell.  Sidechains can't be stopped anyway... Even if the majority of miners refuse, it can be implemented by replacing a NO_OP, so the blocks will still be valid, just not standard.  It will just drive up transaction fees, which will give the miners who do support sidechains a premium.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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