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brg444
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November 02, 2014, 12:50:54 AM
 #15281


trying to say a new, untested "innovation" will exactly offset the discount the market will apply b/c of less security is naive.  that might only be true over a given time period during which that innovation is tested.


did you ever think that the sidechain will be tested and vetted by the community BEFORE it is launched for public use thus mitigating your concerns

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 02, 2014, 01:18:48 AM
 #15282


I think we all agree that Bitcoin is good enough right now and actually pretty close to being perfect as is. As I have mentionned above, its only shortcomings are in its transportive properties : confirmation times and inability to provide private transactions natively. This leads me to believe these two aspects are likely the only ones that who will lead to the creation of utility sidechains that are used as subsets of Bitcoin-money. In all honesty, is there anything more we need from Bitcoin, as a mean of exchange, than faster confirmation time and a privacy option? I don't think so.

Thousands of other sidechains will be created for different purposes but none will be competing with Bitcoin for its position as crypto-money. Some might try, but will realise they will be better off applying their competing idea to an actual altcoin.

Back to my two utility sidechains : these will never take over Bitcoin as they are effectively serving only a certain application or subset of money. Considering these two applications are using a BTC-peg as their transacting unit they are, barring some technicalities, a part of the Bitcoin network and closely tied to the native bitcoin unit, so much in fact that their 1:1 value will always gravitate toward each others and this correlation will become narrower as arbitrage comes into effect and time allows the technology to mature.
Bitcoin as is, is crippled. The perfect Bitcoin has a limit on supply not the number of transactions.
Other shortcomings are peripheral.

Confirmation times are optimized for block dissemination to maintain the preferred chain. (This is a feature not a bug)
Privacy is not anonymity, the goal should be privacy we have that in Bitcoin if you want it.

Your want for Bitcoin to change are better found in an alt, why change something that predates you?. Just adopt something better. If you think it's better and if the market agrees you were correct.

SC don't peg value they peg BTC the currency, and create an opotunity to create value on another blockchain.

Proponents of SC's 1 know this and intended to profit from it or 2 don't see it and blindly support the idea.

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November 02, 2014, 01:22:51 AM
 #15283

Something is making the guy soil himself multiple times per day.  ...
That's insulting.  ...
No!  Really???


Give a real reason then not a personal attack.

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November 02, 2014, 01:29:10 AM
 #15284

This thread was more interesting to read prior to SC discussion taking over... Roll Eyes

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brg444
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November 02, 2014, 01:31:27 AM
 #15285

Bitcoin as is, is crippled. The perfect Bitcoin has a limit on supply not the number of transactions.
Other shortcomings are peripheral.

Confirmation times are optimized for block dissemination to maintain the preferred chain. (This is a feature not a bug)
Privacy is not anonymity, the goal should be privacy we have that in Bitcoin if you want it.

Your want for Bitcoin to change are better found in an alt, why change something that predates you?. Just adopt something better. If you think it's better and if the market agrees you were correct.

SC don't peg value they peg BTC the currency, and create an opotunity to create value on another blockchain.

Proponents of SC's 1 know this and intended to profit from it or 2 don't see it and blindly support the idea.

Sidechains are the crutches that will allow it to serve all of its intended purposes.

I agree with your comment about confirmation times.

I'm not sure how you can say that privacy, on the model of the blockchain historical transaction registry and transparent ledger, is not aligned with the ability to make anonymous transactions.

I don't want Bitcoin to change, I already told you I believe it is as good as it gets (in the cryptocurrency world) from the standpoint of network, infrastructure, economic features and distribution.

Alts, while they may offer a particular desirable feature, do not come close to offering a value proposition similar to Bitcoin in regard to the features mentioned above.

I don't understand exactly what is wrong with wanting to incorporate a layer to Bitcoin so as to leverage its advantages while increasing its usability and features.

The value created on the utility sidechain is mirrored in BTC's value. I don't see how you can argue this.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 02, 2014, 01:54:30 AM
 #15286

Something is making the guy soil himself multiple times per day.  ...
That's insulting.  ...
No!  Really???
Give a real reason then not a personal attack.

Trolling trolls primarily in this particular case.   Edit:  What cyph's real problem is is actually kind of an interesting mystery to me at this point, but clearly from the content of his recent work he has one.  It's pretty obvious and other's have noted it too.


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November 02, 2014, 01:58:01 AM
 #15287


There is no 1:1 peg guarantee. If the SC is inflationary and appeals to a central bank more than Bitcoin they'll use that not BTC. And the minority who want BTC hard money will be eaten for breakfast.

you have lost all of the credibility you have here ever since you started spouting that nonsense. IMO

you have to realize that there is no incentive for someone to create GOVcoin as a sidechain so thus your argument is that the GOV altcoin is going to take BTC over. if that were to happen and if you truly believe that then I suggest you sell all of your BTCs because sidechains are NOT going to have an impact on whether this happens or not

It's not my goal .

Quote from:  Austin Hill  http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blockchain-2-0-let-a-thousand-chains-blossom/
I want to build a blockchain that could support a nation-state putting its national currency and phasing out paper dollars.
[/quote]

Listen to the recording, the referenced text is an abbreviation. He isn't concerned with preserving Bitcoin but rather leveraging it.

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November 02, 2014, 02:01:35 AM
 #15288


Trolling trolls primarily in this particular case.   Edit:  What cyph's real problem is is actually kind of an interesting mystery to me at this point, but clearly from the content of his recent work he has one.  It's pretty obvious and other's have noted it too.

I'm pretty sure the problem is simply ego and inability to concede the inappropriateness of his inital stance.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 02, 2014, 02:14:00 AM
 #15289

Listen to the recording, the referenced text is an abbreviation. He isn't concerned with preserving Bitcoin but rather leveraging it.

 Roll Eyes

5 minutes in :

"The KEY idea here is to protect the concept of digital scarcity and 21 million Bitcoin limit"

"We essentially set Bitcoin as a transactional currency for all innovation"

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 02, 2014, 02:50:40 AM
 #15290


Trolling trolls primarily in this particular case.   Edit:  What cyph's real problem is is actually kind of an interesting mystery to me at this point, but clearly from the content of his recent work he has one.  It's pretty obvious and other's have noted it too.

I'm pretty sure the problem is simply ego and inability to concede the inappropriateness of his inital stance.

Not so sure.  Although the guy has always been 'active' shall we say, he has really bumped it up a notch for the sidechains thing.  My best guess is that he invested some of his stash into a venture which is predicated on Bitcoin going the Bitcoin Foundation direction (e.g., an alt or more likely a Coinbase clone, both of which will be reamed by functional sidechains) and is in a desperate panic right about now.  It wouldn't surprise me if he's flying all over the country in an attempt to ensure that he isn't the partner that takes the lions-share of the ass-reaming.


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November 02, 2014, 04:04:29 AM
 #15291

Luke Jr. is that twat that spammed the blockchain with Catholic prayers no?

He did many many things and keeps confirming he's an asshole but the actual trigger to lose trust? Using his pool to kill and alt coin years ago without permission of the miners. If anyone in the world ever liked abusing power it's this guy right here.
LukeJr is bitcoin's official stress tester.

LukeJr is an eccentric fundamentalist reactionary, but that just makes me like him more.  Plus he's young and very bright.

At least he's upfront about his beliefs and WYSIWYG.  Attacking shitcoins like Coil, Mastercoin, and Counterparty is actually pretty lulzy stuff for a fundy!   Smiley

"Spam" is unsolicited commercial email, and has nothing to do with blockchain graffiti.  Just because you don't like the content, the Catholic stuff isn't any different than Satoshi and other early Bitcoiners' contributions. 

SatoshiDice, Mastercoin, and Counterpary's ongoing unwanted parasitic blockchain pollution is much more akin to spam than the harmless early graffiti.  You are probably just butthurt about the prayers because you hate Catholics.   Roll Eyes

Now that the Pope has OK'd the Big Bang and evolution, both of you may suffer a little less cognitive dissonance and calm down a bit.   Cheesy


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whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
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November 02, 2014, 04:15:55 AM
 #15292


LukeJr is an eccentric fundamentalist reactionary, but that just makes me like him more.  Plus he's young and very bright.

At least he's upfront about his beliefs and WYSIWYG.  Attacking shitcoins like Coil, Mastercoin, and Counterparty is actually pretty lulzy stuff for a fundy!   Smiley

"Spam" is unsolicited commercial email, and has nothing to do with blockchain graffiti.  Just because you don't like the content, the Catholic stuff isn't any different than Satoshi and other early Bitcoiners' contributions. 

SatoshiDice, Mastercoin, and Counterpary's ongoing unwanted parasitic blockchain pollution is much more akin to spam than the harmless early graffiti.  You are probably just butthurt about the prayers because you hate Catholics.   Roll Eyes

Now that the Pope has OK'd the Big Bang and evolution, both of you may suffer a little less cognitive dissonance and calm down a bit.   Cheesy

Attacking almost any alt for no particularly good reason is kind of low class in my opinion, but not a showstopper.  Using pool resources without permission is a somewhat bigger deal, but like anything with Bitcoin, when one puts there trust in someone they need to be staying on the ball...and should not do so unless absolutely necessary.

The only thing I have/had against the guy is that I didn't like his attitude toward UPnP.  I never could tell whether he was just ignorant of the risks or was aware of them and seemed to favor a somewhat deceptive route (like pretty much all of the other devs to some extent.)  Anyway it was a long time ago (and no, I'm not going to spend an hour with the sucky search facilities of this forum trying to find reference.)


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November 02, 2014, 04:49:15 AM
 #15293

I do want to ask though, does this mean you're bearish on Bitcoin now?
I had to sell some, Gavin talking about a fork not an evolution, and this this is devastating IMO.
Forks are the definition of evolution. Every species goes extinct. All of them. We are not the same species as our predecessors and our future progeny will not be the same species as us. Still, they trace a direct lineage. Forking the blockchain will allow a more adaptable Bitcoin that can survive the changing economic environment. Just because all the others who have tried failed, doesn't mean Gavin's version will fail. What will happen if nothing is done?

Once again, cbeast demonstrates why he fails science class.   Grin

Bitcoin is not a natural creation, although we may borrow terms like niche and ecosystem from the vocabulary of biology to discuss it.

Bitcoin is defined by its social contract and the terms of that social contract produce its value, while the features of the software produce its utility.

Scamchains are a change to that social contract, and undermine what has thus far made Bitcoin a runaway success.

Even accepting your clumsy metaphor, some species change little in millions of years (sharks, horseshoe crabs, Coelacanths).  And blue-green algae is doing just fine, 3.5 billion years after its ancestors built stromatolites.

Bitcoin works very well and we shouldn't try to fix it until it breaks.  The proper venue for experimental variations (mutations) of Bitcoin is in the altcoin space.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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November 02, 2014, 04:50:36 AM
 #15294


The value created on the utility sidechain is mirrored in BTC's value. I don't see how you can argue this.

I believe this is the issue either I'm wrong or you're wrong.

Bitcoin the currency is a mental bridge to understanding money as memory. The blockchain is the money. The blockchains existence is dependent on the economic incentive to wright transactions to it, it is an economic ledger if you adopt it. (Adopting Bitcoin is agreeing with the utility that it is the ledger.)

When rewards drop to a low quantity, possibly 20 months from now more likely 6 years, transaction fees will be a significant portion of the incentive to mine blocks. The network is dependent on incentivizing miners - to write transactions. In this model there is no wasted hashing, hashing grows to a point where it is supported by the value it provides eventually it grows to the marginal cost of transactions fees necessary to secure the network.  The drop in reward forces efficiency. And competition to mine for fees is incentivized by accepting the lowest fees possible. The mining market will tend to maximize profit by accepting the lowest fees that are viable or competition will get a sustaining advantage.

Messing with this has ramifications it changes the core of Bitcoin.
It really doesn't matter what miners think so long as they are at least 2 and they are in competition to write to the ledger in exchange for value that is redeemable in that ledger. The economic incentives, the value in the network, will ensure the appropriate industrial energy is invested.

SC offer a secure way to use your BTC (Bitcoin the currency) but they don't secure the value, SC give me a choice transfer the value into another chain if it has greater value, and exchange it back if the other chain has less value.

I only believe BTC has a value because the only way in and out is by moving economic energy to the blockchain, Bitcoin in my mind is the blockchain and the currency are inseparable. It is just money is memory, value on the blockchain.

SC obviously have to be innovative (cypher' arguments have largely IMO focused on how you can fake success by messing with price.) But assuming they offer better value fake or real BTC will lock in. The BTC stay there but the value expressed as economic energy moves across.

To secure this value it will need to be mined, MM is the only option as the value will be comparable to that of Bitcoin.
The miners will mine where ever the value is. If the SC becomes more valuable than Bitcoin (note the value can come from speculation manipulation or innovation we don't get a choice) then miners will derive there reward from the chain that gives the most incentives, nothing guarantees it will be Bitcoin.

We also know Bitcoin will be disadvantaged over time with it's diminishing reward, and if the value is in a SC it will derive the highest reward from transaction fees. (The most viable argument I've heard is miners just MM all the SC, and I don't think that is a secure stratergy.) SC's could be anything even have an inflation rate however improbable that is it's not impossible, and not unlikely.   I conclude that miners will treat the value chain as the main chain and the Bitcoin blockchain would become less secure as miners don't have an economic incentive to keep it secure. (They earn off another chain)

Given we don't know who how or what SC will prevail we can probably expect a greater variety than we see with Alts as there are fiewer risks, we know if they fail to become the value chain they lose nothng and everything to gain if they succeeded.

SC represent an attack vector fare more viable than a 51% attack, I for one wouldn't want to get 1:1 BTC back if the SC had more liquidity and a bigger network. And if that happened Bitcoin would not be as viable for me.

I am convinced Bitcoin has no place being the dominant money or Master Chain unless it represent the economic memory or the greatest liquidity, SC change that, one may emerge that is adopted for reasons that appeal to non Austrian ideals, and absorbs Bitcoins value.

It looks to me like SC enthusiasts believe BTC the currency is inseparable from the value in Bitcoin the blockchain. When in fact SC only secure BTC the currency and facilitate Blockchain the money to move onto a different chain with different incentives or rules. In reality securing BTC is easier than securing the value on the blockchain. I'm a proponent of Bitcoin the blockchain not blockchain technology.

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November 02, 2014, 05:59:47 AM
 #15295

I do want to ask though, does this mean you're bearish on Bitcoin now?
I had to sell some, Gavin talking about a fork not an evolution, and this this is devastating IMO.
Forks are the definition of evolution. Every species goes extinct. All of them. We are not the same species as our predecessors and our future progeny will not be the same species as us. Still, they trace a direct lineage. Forking the blockchain will allow a more adaptable Bitcoin that can survive the changing economic environment. Just because all the others who have tried failed, doesn't mean Gavin's version will fail. What will happen if nothing is done?

Once again, cbeast demonstrates why he fails science class.   Grin

Bitcoin is not a natural creation, although we may borrow terms like niche and ecosystem from the vocabulary of biology to discuss it.

Bitcoin is defined by its social contract and the terms of that social contract produce its value, while the features of the software produce its utility.

Scamchains are a change to that social contract, and undermine what has thus far made Bitcoin a runaway success.

Even accepting your clumsy metaphor, some species change little in millions of years (sharks, horseshoe crabs, Coelacanths).  And blue-green algae is doing just fine, 3.5 billion years after its ancestors built stromatolites.

Bitcoin works very well and we shouldn't try to fix it until it breaks.  The proper venue for experimental variations (mutations) of Bitcoin is in the altcoin space.
I guess you don't know much about speciation. I guess you think a "social contract" is not influenced by biology. In fact, everything related to organism, even social contracts are evolutionary. Unless you think you are immortal in which case nobody can help you.

edit: I guess I take this subject much more seriously than most people. I think the notion of money will lead to the death of our planet.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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November 02, 2014, 07:48:42 AM
 #15296


Trolling trolls primarily in this particular case.   Edit:  What cyph's real problem is is actually kind of an interesting mystery to me at this point, but clearly from the content of his recent work he has one.  It's pretty obvious and other's have noted it too.

I'm pretty sure the problem is simply ego and inability to concede the inappropriateness of his inital stance.

Not so sure.  Although the guy has always been 'active' shall we say, he has really bumped it up a notch for the sidechains thing.  My best guess is that he invested some of his stash into a venture which is predicated on Bitcoin going the Bitcoin Foundation direction (e.g., an alt or more likely a Coinbase clone, both of which will be reamed by functional sidechains) and is in a desperate panic right about now.  It wouldn't surprise me if he's flying all over the country in an attempt to ensure that he isn't the partner that takes the lions-share of the ass-reaming.



The only man crush around here is you for me.

No, I have no alternate investment in the space other than Bitcoin. It should be clear I simply don't believe in SC's. I think they will hurt Bitcoin and that is all I'm  fighting against.
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November 02, 2014, 10:28:01 AM
 #15297


Trolling trolls primarily in this particular case.   Edit:  What cyph's real problem is is actually kind of an interesting mystery to me at this point, but clearly from the content of his recent work he has one.  It's pretty obvious and other's have noted it too.

I'm pretty sure the problem is simply ego and inability to concede the inappropriateness of his inital stance.

Not so sure.  Although the guy has always been 'active' shall we say, he has really bumped it up a notch for the sidechains thing.  My best guess is that he invested some of his stash into a venture which is predicated on Bitcoin going the Bitcoin Foundation direction (e.g., an alt or more likely a Coinbase clone, both of which will be reamed by functional sidechains) and is in a desperate panic right about now.  It wouldn't surprise me if he's flying all over the country in an attempt to ensure that he isn't the partner that takes the lions-share of the ass-reaming.



The only man crush around here is you for me.

No, I have no alternate investment in the space other than Bitcoin. It should be clear I simply don't believe in SC's. I think they will hurt Bitcoin and that is all I'm  fighting against.

SC's already exist. Exchanges, web wallets, payment processors are  SC's. Those SC's require trusted entity.

You think Bitcoin will be better without those services ?
I'm sure Bitcoin will be better if we can create those services without trust to service provider.
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November 02, 2014, 10:44:20 AM
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Forks are the definition of evolution. Every species goes extinct. All of them. We are not the same species as our predecessors ...

Indeed ...

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November 02, 2014, 10:56:00 AM
 #15299


Trolling trolls primarily in this particular case.   Edit:  What cyph's real problem is is actually kind of an interesting mystery to me at this point, but clearly from the content of his recent work he has one.  It's pretty obvious and other's have noted it too.

I'm pretty sure the problem is simply ego and inability to concede the inappropriateness of his inital stance.

Not so sure.  Although the guy has always been 'active' shall we say, he has really bumped it up a notch for the sidechains thing.  My best guess is that he invested some of his stash into a venture which is predicated on Bitcoin going the Bitcoin Foundation direction (e.g., an alt or more likely a Coinbase clone, both of which will be reamed by functional sidechains) and is in a desperate panic right about now.  It wouldn't surprise me if he's flying all over the country in an attempt to ensure that he isn't the partner that takes the lions-share of the ass-reaming.



The only man crush around here is you for me.

No, I have no alternate investment in the space other than Bitcoin. It should be clear I simply don't believe in SC's. I think they will hurt Bitcoin and that is all I'm  fighting against.

SC's already exist. Exchanges, web wallets, payment processors are  SC's. Those SC's require trusted entity.

You think Bitcoin will be better without those services ?
I'm sure Bitcoin will be better if we can create those services without trust to service provider.

SC seem more like Crypto Currency Casasius coins to me.
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November 02, 2014, 12:30:45 PM
 #15300


The value created on the utility sidechain is mirrored in BTC's value. I don't see how you can argue this.

I believe this is the issue either I'm wrong or you're wrong.

Bitcoin the currency is a mental bridge to understanding money as memory. The blockchain is the money. The blockchains existence is dependent on the economic incentive to wright transactions to it, it is an economic ledger if you adopt it. (Adopting Bitcoin is agreeing with the utility that it is the ledger.)

When rewards drop to a low quantity, possibly 20 months from now more likely 6 years, transaction fees will be a significant portion of the incentive to mine blocks. The network is dependent on incentivizing miners - to write transactions. In this model there is no wasted hashing, hashing grows to a point where it is supported by the value it provides eventually it grows to the marginal cost of transactions fees necessary to secure the network.  The drop in reward forces efficiency. And competition to mine for fees is incentivized by accepting the lowest fees possible. The mining market will tend to maximize profit by accepting the lowest fees that are viable or competition will get a sustaining advantage.

Messing with this has ramifications it changes the core of Bitcoin.
It really doesn't matter what miners think so long as they are at least 2 and they are in competition to write to the ledger in exchange for value that is redeemable in that ledger. The economic incentives, the value in the network, will ensure the appropriate industrial energy is invested.

SC offer a secure way to use your BTC (Bitcoin the currency) but they don't secure the value, SC give me a choice transfer the value into another chain if it has greater value, and exchange it back if the other chain has less value.

I only believe BTC has a value because the only way in and out is by moving economic energy to the blockchain, Bitcoin in my mind is the blockchain and the currency are inseparable. It is just money is memory, value on the blockchain.

SC obviously have to be innovative (cypher' arguments have largely IMO focused on how you can fake success by messing with price.) But assuming they offer better value fake or real BTC will lock in. The BTC stay there but the value expressed as economic energy moves across.

To secure this value it will need to be mined, MM is the only option as the value will be comparable to that of Bitcoin.
The miners will mine where ever the value is. If the SC becomes more valuable than Bitcoin (note the value can come from speculation manipulation or innovation we don't get a choice) then miners will derive there reward from the chain that gives the most incentives, nothing guarantees it will be Bitcoin.

We also know Bitcoin will be disadvantaged over time with it's diminishing reward, and if the value is in a SC it will derive the highest reward from transaction fees. (The most viable argument I've heard is miners just MM all the SC, and I don't think that is a secure stratergy.) SC's could be anything even have an inflation rate however improbable that is it's not impossible, and not unlikely.   I conclude that miners will treat the value chain as the main chain and the Bitcoin blockchain would become less secure as miners don't have an economic incentive to keep it secure. (They earn off another chain)

Given we don't know who how or what SC will prevail we can probably expect a greater variety than we see with Alts as there are fiewer risks, we know if they fail to become the value chain they lose nothng and everything to gain if they succeeded.

SC represent an attack vector fare more viable than a 51% attack, I for one wouldn't want to get 1:1 BTC back if the SC had more liquidity and a bigger network. And if that happened Bitcoin would not be as viable for me.

I am convinced Bitcoin has no place being the dominant money or Master Chain unless it represent the economic memory or the greatest liquidity, SC change that, one may emerge that is adopted for reasons that appeal to non Austrian ideals, and absorbs Bitcoins value.

It looks to me like SC enthusiasts believe BTC the currency is inseparable from the value in Bitcoin the blockchain. When in fact SC only secure BTC the currency and facilitate Blockchain the money to move onto a different chain with different incentives or rules. In reality securing BTC is easier than securing the value on the blockchain. I'm a proponent of Bitcoin the blockchain not blockchain technology.


Everyone needs to read and digest this thoroughly.

One grammar error is that I believe  you meant SC proponents think BTC and Blockchain are "separable".
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