Bitcoin Forum
December 11, 2016, 02:14:21 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 765 [766] 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 ... 1560 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808741 times)
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:29:57 AM
 #15301

that's b/c altcoins don't have the luxury of being MM'd by the Bitcoin miners.

the only chance SC's have to sell their whole concept is if Austin Hill can introduce a market distortion by convincing miners to MM.  you know, the "something for nothing" concept.

"market distortion"

 Cheesy

surely you mean "profit incentive" right?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
1481465661
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481465661

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481465661
Reply with quote  #2

1481465661
Report to moderator
1481465661
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481465661

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481465661
Reply with quote  #2

1481465661
Report to moderator
"Your bitcoin is secured in a way that is physically impossible for others to access, no matter for what reason, no matter how good the excuse, no matter a majority of miners, no matter what." -- gmaxwell
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481465661
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481465661

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481465661
Reply with quote  #2

1481465661
Report to moderator
1481465661
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481465661

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481465661
Reply with quote  #2

1481465661
Report to moderator
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:36:13 AM
 #15302

I do want to ask though, does this mean you're bearish on Bitcoin now?
I had to sell some, Gavin talking about a fork not an evolution, and this this is devastating IMO.
Forks are the definition of evolution. Every species goes extinct. All of them. We are not the same species as our predecessors and our future progeny will not be the same species as us. Still, they trace a direct lineage. Forking the blockchain will allow a more adaptable Bitcoin that can survive the changing economic environment. Just because all the others who have tried failed, doesn't mean Gavin's version will fail. What will happen if nothing is done?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1988


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:37:18 AM
 #15303

the guy is not known for his manners.  in fact, if i say one thing, you can be guaranteed he'll just say the opposite to disagree.

Not true.  We were both saying BTC was possibly a good buy in late 2011.  Just saying it in different tones, and possibly for different reasons.  My clairvoyance is not sufficient to speak authoritatively about the latter though.  You are pretty much right since that time though.  We disagree about more than we agree about to be sure.  And I do have a propensity to disagree (and often enough to be disagreeable.)


solex
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1078


100 satoshis -> ISO code


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:37:49 AM
 #15304

I do want to ask though, does this mean you're bearish on Bitcoin now?
I had to sell some, Gavin talking about a fork not an evolution, and this this is devastating IMO.
Forks are the definition of evolution. Every species goes extinct. All of them. We are not the same species as our predecessors and our future progeny will not be the same species as us. Still, they trace a direct lineage. Forking the blockchain will allow a more adaptable Bitcoin that can survive the changing economic environment. Just because all the others who have tried failed, doesn't mean Gavin's version will fail. What will happen if nothing is done?

Apes losing their tail was a fork in the evolution of primates.

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:38:27 AM
 #15305

another way to address your point is that a "theoretical" will never trump a "known".

we know MM is less secure than direct mining.  we don't know that a new untested "innovation" will exactly counter weigh the value of less security.

remember a week ago when you proposed that your anonymous sidechain would be so attractive it would effectively siphon all the BTC out of the mainchain  Huh

now you are not so certain about "innovations" because they don't fit your argument ?

via a speculative attack.

point being, there are many scenarios here where problems could occur.
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:39:05 AM
 #15306

I do want to ask though, does this mean you're bearish on Bitcoin now?
I had to sell some, Gavin talking about a fork not an evolution, and this this is devastating IMO.
Forks are the definition of evolution. Every species goes extinct. All of them. We are not the same species as our predecessors and our future progeny will not be the same species as us. Still, they trace a direct lineage. Forking the blockchain will allow a more adaptable Bitcoin that can survive the changing economic environment. Just because all the others who have tried failed, doesn't mean Gavin's version will fail. What will happen if nothing is done?

Apes losing their tail was a fork in the evolution of primates.
No. That's not the point and also not true.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:39:15 AM
 #15307

unfortunately, i gotta go for a few hours.

back later.
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:40:52 AM
 #15308


There is no 1:1 peg guarantee. If the SC is inflationary and appeals to a central bank more than Bitcoin they'll use that not BTC. And the minority who want BTC hard money will be eaten for breakfast.

you have lost all of the credibility you have here ever since you started spouting that nonsense. IMO

you have to realize that there is no incentive for someone to create GOVcoin as a sidechain so thus your argument is that the GOV altcoin is going to take BTC over. if that were to happen and if you truly believe that then I suggest you sell all of your BTCs because sidechains are NOT going to have an impact on whether this happens or not

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:44:17 AM
 #15309

another way to address your point is that a "theoretical" will never trump a "known".

we know MM is less secure than direct mining.  we don't know that a new untested "innovation" will exactly counter weigh the value of less security.

remember a week ago when you proposed that your anonymous sidechain would be so attractive it would effectively siphon all the BTC out of the mainchain  Huh

now you are not so certain about "innovations" because they don't fit your argument ?

via a speculative attack.

point being, there are many scenarios here where problems could occur.

and the beauty of open-source is the mind share of all of the Bitcoin community can work together to mitigate these problem scenarios..

the obvious point here is you choose to focus on doomsday scenarios without ever considering the successful ones.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:50:54 AM
 #15310


trying to say a new, untested "innovation" will exactly offset the discount the market will apply b/c of less security is naive.  that might only be true over a given time period during which that innovation is tested.


did you ever think that the sidechain will be tested and vetted by the community BEFORE it is launched for public use thus mitigating your concerns

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1330



View Profile
November 02, 2014, 01:18:48 AM
 #15311


I think we all agree that Bitcoin is good enough right now and actually pretty close to being perfect as is. As I have mentionned above, its only shortcomings are in its transportive properties : confirmation times and inability to provide private transactions natively. This leads me to believe these two aspects are likely the only ones that who will lead to the creation of utility sidechains that are used as subsets of Bitcoin-money. In all honesty, is there anything more we need from Bitcoin, as a mean of exchange, than faster confirmation time and a privacy option? I don't think so.

Thousands of other sidechains will be created for different purposes but none will be competing with Bitcoin for its position as crypto-money. Some might try, but will realise they will be better off applying their competing idea to an actual altcoin.

Back to my two utility sidechains : these will never take over Bitcoin as they are effectively serving only a certain application or subset of money. Considering these two applications are using a BTC-peg as their transacting unit they are, barring some technicalities, a part of the Bitcoin network and closely tied to the native bitcoin unit, so much in fact that their 1:1 value will always gravitate toward each others and this correlation will become narrower as arbitrage comes into effect and time allows the technology to mature.
Bitcoin as is, is crippled. The perfect Bitcoin has a limit on supply not the number of transactions.
Other shortcomings are peripheral.

Confirmation times are optimized for block dissemination to maintain the preferred chain. (This is a feature not a bug)
Privacy is not anonymity, the goal should be privacy we have that in Bitcoin if you want it.

Your want for Bitcoin to change are better found in an alt, why change something that predates you?. Just adopt something better. If you think it's better and if the market agrees you were correct.

SC don't peg value they peg BTC the currency, and create an opotunity to create value on another blockchain.

Proponents of SC's 1 know this and intended to profit from it or 2 don't see it and blindly support the idea.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1330



View Profile
November 02, 2014, 01:22:51 AM
 #15312

Something is making the guy soil himself multiple times per day.  ...
That's insulting.  ...
No!  Really???


Give a real reason then not a personal attack.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
kodtycoon
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 01:29:10 AM
 #15313

This thread was more interesting to read prior to SC discussion taking over... Roll Eyes

"Pioneering a revolutionary novel consensus mechanism called proof of importance."
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 01:31:27 AM
 #15314

Bitcoin as is, is crippled. The perfect Bitcoin has a limit on supply not the number of transactions.
Other shortcomings are peripheral.

Confirmation times are optimized for block dissemination to maintain the preferred chain. (This is a feature not a bug)
Privacy is not anonymity, the goal should be privacy we have that in Bitcoin if you want it.

Your want for Bitcoin to change are better found in an alt, why change something that predates you?. Just adopt something better. If you think it's better and if the market agrees you were correct.

SC don't peg value they peg BTC the currency, and create an opotunity to create value on another blockchain.

Proponents of SC's 1 know this and intended to profit from it or 2 don't see it and blindly support the idea.

Sidechains are the crutches that will allow it to serve all of its intended purposes.

I agree with your comment about confirmation times.

I'm not sure how you can say that privacy, on the model of the blockchain historical transaction registry and transparent ledger, is not aligned with the ability to make anonymous transactions.

I don't want Bitcoin to change, I already told you I believe it is as good as it gets (in the cryptocurrency world) from the standpoint of network, infrastructure, economic features and distribution.

Alts, while they may offer a particular desirable feature, do not come close to offering a value proposition similar to Bitcoin in regard to the features mentioned above.

I don't understand exactly what is wrong with wanting to incorporate a layer to Bitcoin so as to leverage its advantages while increasing its usability and features.

The value created on the utility sidechain is mirrored in BTC's value. I don't see how you can argue this.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1988


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 01:54:30 AM
 #15315

Something is making the guy soil himself multiple times per day.  ...
That's insulting.  ...
No!  Really???
Give a real reason then not a personal attack.

Trolling trolls primarily in this particular case.   Edit:  What cyph's real problem is is actually kind of an interesting mystery to me at this point, but clearly from the content of his recent work he has one.  It's pretty obvious and other's have noted it too.


Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1330



View Profile
November 02, 2014, 01:58:01 AM
 #15316


There is no 1:1 peg guarantee. If the SC is inflationary and appeals to a central bank more than Bitcoin they'll use that not BTC. And the minority who want BTC hard money will be eaten for breakfast.

you have lost all of the credibility you have here ever since you started spouting that nonsense. IMO

you have to realize that there is no incentive for someone to create GOVcoin as a sidechain so thus your argument is that the GOV altcoin is going to take BTC over. if that were to happen and if you truly believe that then I suggest you sell all of your BTCs because sidechains are NOT going to have an impact on whether this happens or not

It's not my goal .

Quote from:  Austin Hill  http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blockchain-2-0-let-a-thousand-chains-blossom/
I want to build a blockchain that could support a nation-state putting its national currency and phasing out paper dollars.
[/quote]

Listen to the recording, the referenced text is an abbreviation. He isn't concerned with preserving Bitcoin but rather leveraging it.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 02:01:35 AM
 #15317


Trolling trolls primarily in this particular case.   Edit:  What cyph's real problem is is actually kind of an interesting mystery to me at this point, but clearly from the content of his recent work he has one.  It's pretty obvious and other's have noted it too.

I'm pretty sure the problem is simply ego and inability to concede the inappropriateness of his inital stance.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 02:14:00 AM
 #15318

Listen to the recording, the referenced text is an abbreviation. He isn't concerned with preserving Bitcoin but rather leveraging it.

 Roll Eyes

5 minutes in :

"The KEY idea here is to protect the concept of digital scarcity and 21 million Bitcoin limit"

"We essentially set Bitcoin as a transactional currency for all innovation"

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1988


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 02:50:40 AM
 #15319


Trolling trolls primarily in this particular case.   Edit:  What cyph's real problem is is actually kind of an interesting mystery to me at this point, but clearly from the content of his recent work he has one.  It's pretty obvious and other's have noted it too.

I'm pretty sure the problem is simply ego and inability to concede the inappropriateness of his inital stance.

Not so sure.  Although the guy has always been 'active' shall we say, he has really bumped it up a notch for the sidechains thing.  My best guess is that he invested some of his stash into a venture which is predicated on Bitcoin going the Bitcoin Foundation direction (e.g., an alt or more likely a Coinbase clone, both of which will be reamed by functional sidechains) and is in a desperate panic right about now.  It wouldn't surprise me if he's flying all over the country in an attempt to ensure that he isn't the partner that takes the lions-share of the ass-reaming.


iCEBREAKER
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1512


Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


View Profile WWW
November 02, 2014, 04:04:29 AM
 #15320

Luke Jr. is that twat that spammed the blockchain with Catholic prayers no?

He did many many things and keeps confirming he's an asshole but the actual trigger to lose trust? Using his pool to kill and alt coin years ago without permission of the miners. If anyone in the world ever liked abusing power it's this guy right here.
LukeJr is bitcoin's official stress tester.

LukeJr is an eccentric fundamentalist reactionary, but that just makes me like him more.  Plus he's young and very bright.

At least he's upfront about his beliefs and WYSIWYG.  Attacking shitcoins like Coil, Mastercoin, and Counterparty is actually pretty lulzy stuff for a fundy!   Smiley

"Spam" is unsolicited commercial email, and has nothing to do with blockchain graffiti.  Just because you don't like the content, the Catholic stuff isn't any different than Satoshi and other early Bitcoiners' contributions. 

SatoshiDice, Mastercoin, and Counterpary's ongoing unwanted parasitic blockchain pollution is much more akin to spam than the harmless early graffiti.  You are probably just butthurt about the prayers because you hate Catholics.   Roll Eyes

Now that the Pope has OK'd the Big Bang and evolution, both of you may suffer a little less cognitive dissonance and calm down a bit.   Cheesy

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Pages: « 1 ... 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 765 [766] 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 ... 1560 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!