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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2010829 times)
notme
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October 24, 2014, 05:20:03 PM
 #14481

I don't understand how the peg will work.

Let's say 10 000 BTC are locked and give access to a SideChain, if that Sidecoin is more succesful than BTC then the Sidecoin could be sell for more than the peg on the open market. If the sidecoin fail than the sidecoin holder can exit the sidechain and retreive their old BTC.

So basically a sidecoin is an option and there is a massive incentive to leave the BTC blockchain to the sidechain and enjoy you free option, so basically this will destroy Bitcoin. What I don't understand?

If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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October 24, 2014, 05:27:06 PM
 #14482

I don't understand how the peg will work.

Let's say 10 000 BTC are locked and give access to a SideChain, if that Sidecoin is more succesful than BTC then the Sidecoin could be sell for more than the peg on the open market. If the sidecoin fail than the sidecoin holder can exit the sidechain and retreive their old BTC.

So basically a sidecoin is an option and there is a massive incentive to leave the BTC blockchain to the sidechain and enjoy you free option, so basically this will destroy Bitcoin. What I don't understand?

If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.
But if not...
The pegging will be done on-the-fly in-and-out as needed by the users. It will only need a small amount of bitcoins to start. If a better SC comes out, you can switch back to your bitcoins and switch to another SC anytime.

If someone builds the uber SC, then a lot of people will switch, but the bitcoins will still exist just in case a better SC comes along someday. Bitcoin will not be destroyed because it is the primary liquidity for the SC. In fact it should drive the price of BTC up for cold storage purposes just in case the SC gets broken. Miners will be the sentinels for Bitcoin.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
BldSwtTrs
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October 24, 2014, 05:34:07 PM
 #14483

I don't understand how the peg will work.

Let's say 10 000 BTC are locked and give access to a SideChain, if that Sidecoin is more succesful than BTC then the Sidecoin could be sell for more than the peg on the open market. If the sidecoin fail than the sidecoin holder can exit the sidechain and retreive their old BTC.

So basically a sidecoin is an option and there is a massive incentive to leave the BTC blockchain to the sidechain and enjoy you free option, so basically this will destroy Bitcoin. What I don't understand?

If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.
But if not...
The pegging will be done on-the-fly in-and-out as needed by the users. It will only need a small amount of bitcoins to start. If a better SC comes out, you can switch back to your bitcoins and switch to another SC anytime.

If someone builds the uber SC, then a lot of people will switch, but the bitcoins will still exist just in case a better SC comes along someday. Bitcoin will not be destroyed because it is the primary liquidity for the SC. In fact it should drive the price of BTC up for cold storage purposes just in case the SC gets broken. Miners will be the sentinels for Bitcoin.
Why BTC is the primary liquidity for SC? What prevent people to buy the SC the open market with fiat?

Either the fiat price is higher than the peg and then BTC is an option in the money which will be used, either it's lower and then people will don't use BTC to get SC but buy them with fiat.
cypherdoc
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October 24, 2014, 05:37:06 PM
 #14484

I don't understand how the peg will work.

Let's say 10 000 BTC are locked and give access to a SideChain, if that Sidecoin is more succesful than BTC then the Sidecoin could be sell for more than the peg on the open market. If the sidecoin fail than the sidecoin holder can exit the sidechain and retreive their old BTC.

So basically a sidecoin is an option and there is a massive incentive to leave the BTC blockchain to the sidechain and enjoy you free option, so basically this will destroy Bitcoin. What I don't understand?

If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.

i'm confused about this.  i've heard different stories from, "it's not possible to lose your scBTC to a SC failure b/c you can always access the peg back to BTC"  versus "you'll lose everything".   then this from LukeJr:

[–]Freemanix 2 points 7 hours ago

What if the child chain is defunct/abandoned? How can I return my funds back onto parent chain?

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[–]luke-jr [-6] 3 points 7 hours ago

Mining it yourself? There's potentially ways to do a unilateral transfer, but that's something beyond simple sidechains for now.
cbeast
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October 24, 2014, 05:38:00 PM
 #14485

I don't understand how the peg will work.

Let's say 10 000 BTC are locked and give access to a SideChain, if that Sidecoin is more succesful than BTC then the Sidecoin could be sell for more than the peg on the open market. If the sidecoin fail than the sidecoin holder can exit the sidechain and retreive their old BTC.

So basically a sidecoin is an option and there is a massive incentive to leave the BTC blockchain to the sidechain and enjoy you free option, so basically this will destroy Bitcoin. What I don't understand?

If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.
But if not...
The pegging will be done on-the-fly in-and-out as needed by the users. It will only need a small amount of bitcoins to start. If a better SC comes out, you can switch back to your bitcoins and switch to another SC anytime.

If someone builds the uber SC, then a lot of people will switch, but the bitcoins will still exist just in case a better SC comes along someday. Bitcoin will not be destroyed because it is the primary liquidity for the SC. In fact it should drive the price of BTC up for cold storage purposes just in case the SC gets broken. Miners will be the sentinels for Bitcoin.
Why BTC is the primary liquidity for SC? What prevent people to buy the SC on the open market with fiat?
It will still have to be pegged with bitcoin or else it is a fiat altcoin. So Bitcoin will have not only the same value, but also the ability to magically convert to that SC or any other SC and thus the ultimate arbitrage between SC coins that can bypass exchanges.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
cbeast
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October 24, 2014, 05:39:40 PM
 #14486

I don't understand how the peg will work.

Let's say 10 000 BTC are locked and give access to a SideChain, if that Sidecoin is more succesful than BTC then the Sidecoin could be sell for more than the peg on the open market. If the sidecoin fail than the sidecoin holder can exit the sidechain and retreive their old BTC.

So basically a sidecoin is an option and there is a massive incentive to leave the BTC blockchain to the sidechain and enjoy you free option, so basically this will destroy Bitcoin. What I don't understand?

If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.

i'm confused about this.  i've heard different stories from, "it's not possible to lose your scBTC to a SC failure b/c you can always access the peg back to BTC"  versus "you'll lose everything".   then this from LukeJr:

[–]Freemanix 2 points 7 hours ago

What if the child chain is defunct/abandoned? How can I return my funds back onto parent chain?

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[–]luke-jr [-6] 3 points 7 hours ago

Mining it yourself? There's potentially ways to do a unilateral transfer, but that's something beyond simple sidechains for now.

So basically, SC is just an idea with nothing fleshed out.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
cypherdoc
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October 24, 2014, 05:43:37 PM
 #14487

I don't understand how the peg will work.

Let's say 10 000 BTC are locked and give access to a SideChain, if that Sidecoin is more succesful than BTC then the Sidecoin could be sell for more than the peg on the open market. If the sidecoin fail than the sidecoin holder can exit the sidechain and retreive their old BTC.

So basically a sidecoin is an option and there is a massive incentive to leave the BTC blockchain to the sidechain and enjoy you free option, so basically this will destroy Bitcoin. What I don't understand?

If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.
But if not...
The pegging will be done on-the-fly in-and-out as needed by the users. It will only need a small amount of bitcoins to start. If a better SC comes out, you can switch back to your bitcoins and switch to another SC anytime.

If someone builds the uber SC, then a lot of people will switch, but the bitcoins will still exist just in case a better SC comes along someday. Bitcoin will not be destroyed because it is the primary liquidity for the SC. In fact it should drive the price of BTC up for cold storage purposes just in case the SC gets broken. Miners will be the sentinels for Bitcoin.
Why BTC is the primary liquidity for SC? What prevent people to buy the SC on the open market with fiat?
It will still have to be pegged with bitcoin or else it is a fiat altcoin. So Bitcoin will have not only the same value, but also the ability to magically convert to that SC or any other SC and thus the ultimate arbitrage between SC coins that can bypass exchanges.

earlier i was trying to conceive a scenario where the mining fees required to transit the peg might become exorbitant thus negating the perfect arbitrage.  what would happen if either BTC or scBTC is perceived to be in crisis and failing?  anyone trying to get out from the failing unit might have to pay thru the nose to do so as the miner would be taking signif fee risk with a unit heading to zero.
justusranvier
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October 24, 2014, 05:43:57 PM
 #14488

i'm confused about this.  i've heard different stories from, "it's not possible to lose your scBTC to a SC failure b/c you can always access the peg back to BTC"  versus "you'll lose everything".   then this from LukeJr:

[–]Freemanix 2 points 7 hours ago

What if the child chain is defunct/abandoned? How can I return my funds back onto parent chain?

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    parent
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[–]luke-jr [-6] 3 points 7 hours ago

Mining it yourself? There's potentially ways to do a unilateral transfer, but that's something beyond simple sidechains for now.

wtf?
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October 24, 2014, 05:45:11 PM
 #14489



If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.


It will still have to be pegged with bitcoin or else it is a fiat altcoin. So Bitcoin will have not only the same value, but also the ability to magically convert to that SC or any other SC and thus the ultimate arbitrage between SC coins that can bypass exchanges.

^^This is how I understand it - the owner of the scBTC is always in control of the original BTC, it's just locked. A malfunction/default/shutdown of the SC doesn't effect your ability to unlock the original BTC. Correct me if I'm wrong on the following from a technical standpoint:

A SC only references that the original BTC is continually "locked" in the correct way. As soon as it is unlocked the SC asset ceases to exist as well (regardless if the SC network is actively functioning)
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October 24, 2014, 05:46:00 PM
 #14490

Main reason that i prefer bitcoin, but i like in the same case gold because in gold there isn't same speculation that we have in bitcoin  Angry
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October 24, 2014, 05:48:32 PM
 #14491



If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.


It will still have to be pegged with bitcoin or else it is a fiat altcoin. So Bitcoin will have not only the same value, but also the ability to magically convert to that SC or any other SC and thus the ultimate arbitrage between SC coins that can bypass exchanges.

^^This is how I understand it - the owner of the scBTC is always in control of the original BTC, it's just locked. A malfunction/default/shutdown of the SC doesn't effect your ability to unlock the original BTC. Correct me if I'm wrong on the following from a technical standpoint:

A SC only references that the original BTC is continually "locked" in the correct way. As soon as it is unlocked the SC asset ceases to exist as well (regardless if the SC network is actively functioning)
So in this case SC stands for Scam Coin.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 24, 2014, 05:49:44 PM
 #14492

nullc, in pm's with me, has admitted that there are cases where scBTC can be lost on SC's.  i should've gotten into the specifics.
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October 24, 2014, 05:50:48 PM
 #14493



If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.


It will still have to be pegged with bitcoin or else it is a fiat altcoin. So Bitcoin will have not only the same value, but also the ability to magically convert to that SC or any other SC and thus the ultimate arbitrage between SC coins that can bypass exchanges.

^^This is how I understand it - the owner of the scBTC is always in control of the original BTC, it's just locked. A malfunction/default/shutdown of the SC doesn't effect your ability to unlock the original BTC. Correct me if I'm wrong on the following from a technical standpoint:

A SC only references that the original BTC is continually "locked" in the correct way. As soon as it is unlocked the SC asset ceases to exist as well (regardless if the SC network is actively functioning)
If that's true nobody will have an incentive to stay in the main blockchain. Every body will leave the BTC blockchain to enjoy an upside potentiel without downside in a sidechain. That's really bad.
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October 24, 2014, 05:51:53 PM
 #14494

I don't understand how the peg will work.

Let's say 10 000 BTC are locked and give access to a SideChain, if that Sidecoin is more succesful than BTC then the Sidecoin could be sell for more than the peg on the open market. If the sidecoin fail than the sidecoin holder can exit the sidechain and retreive their old BTC.

So basically a sidecoin is an option and there is a massive incentive to leave the BTC blockchain to the sidechain and enjoy you free option, so basically this will destroy Bitcoin. What I don't understand?

If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.
But if not...
The pegging will be done on-the-fly in-and-out as needed by the users. It will only need a small amount of bitcoins to start. If a better SC comes out, you can switch back to your bitcoins and switch to another SC anytime.

If someone builds the uber SC, then a lot of people will switch, but the bitcoins will still exist just in case a better SC comes along someday. Bitcoin will not be destroyed because it is the primary liquidity for the SC. In fact it should drive the price of BTC up for cold storage purposes just in case the SC gets broken. Miners will be the sentinels for Bitcoin.
Why BTC is the primary liquidity for SC? What prevent people to buy the SC on the open market with fiat?
It will still have to be pegged with bitcoin or else it is a fiat altcoin. So Bitcoin will have not only the same value, but also the ability to magically convert to that SC or any other SC and thus the ultimate arbitrage between SC coins that can bypass exchanges.

earlier i was trying to conceive a scenario where the mining fees required to transit the peg might become exorbitant thus negating the perfect arbitrage.  what would happen if either BTC or scBTC is perceived to be in crisis and failing?  anyone trying to get out from the failing unit might have to pay thru the nose to do so as the miner would be taking signif fee risk with a unit heading to zero.
If it's open source there should be safeguards to keep those things from happening surreptitiously. But then again, it looks like we are only discussing theory and hypotheticals as it is unlikely SC will even get as far as Ethereum as anything more than an altcoin.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 24, 2014, 05:53:20 PM
 #14495



If you leave to the sidechain, there is a chance the sidechain will explode in your face and take all BTC that have been moved to it it with it.


It will still have to be pegged with bitcoin or else it is a fiat altcoin. So Bitcoin will have not only the same value, but also the ability to magically convert to that SC or any other SC and thus the ultimate arbitrage between SC coins that can bypass exchanges.

^^This is how I understand it - the owner of the scBTC is always in control of the original BTC, it's just locked. A malfunction/default/shutdown of the SC doesn't effect your ability to unlock the original BTC. Correct me if I'm wrong on the following from a technical standpoint:

A SC only references that the original BTC is continually "locked" in the correct way. As soon as it is unlocked the SC asset ceases to exist as well (regardless if the SC network is actively functioning)
If that's true nobody will have an incentive to stay in the main blockchain. Every body will leave the BTC blockchain to enjoy an upside potentiel without downside in a sidechain. That's really bad.

now that's a really damn good point.
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October 24, 2014, 05:53:58 PM
 #14496

Great points

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October 24, 2014, 05:54:05 PM
 #14497

nullc, in pm's with me, has admitted that there are cases where scBTC can be lost on SC's.  i should've gotten into the specifics.
Yeah, SC is just Proof of Burn. Season of the Witch.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 24, 2014, 05:56:40 PM
 #14498

where the fuck is brg444 when we need him?
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October 24, 2014, 06:02:43 PM
 #14499

From the paper - implies there is no risk of degraded sidechains. Also, that there is no real harm of a SC becoming more used than BTC because the side chain coins are backed by BTC:

---
Furthermore, because sidechains transfer existing assets from the parent chain rather than creating new ones, sidechains cannot cause unauthorised creation of coins, relying instead on the parent chain to maintain the security and scarcity of its assets.

Further still, participants do not need to be as concerned that their holdings are locked in a single experimental altchain, since sidechain coins can be redeemed for an equal number of parent chain coins. This provides an exit strategy, reducing harm from unmaintained software.

On the other hand, because sidechains are still blockchains independent of Bitcoin, they are free to experiment with new transaction designs, trust models, economic models, asset issuance semantics, or cryptographic features. We will explore many of the possibilities for sidechains further in Section 5.

An additional benefit to this infrastructure is that making changes to Bitcoin itself becomes much less pressing: rather than orchestrating a fork which all parties need to agree on and implement in tandem, a new “changed Bitcoin” could be created as a sidechain. If, in the medium term, there
were wide agreement that the new system was an improvement, it may end up seeing significantly more use than Bitcoin. As there are no changes to parent chain consensus rules, everyone can switch in their own time without any of the risks associated with consensus failure.
---
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October 24, 2014, 06:09:47 PM
 #14500

From the paper - implies there is no risk of degraded sidechains. Also, that there is no real harm of a SC becoming more used than BTC because the side chain coins are backed by BTC:

---
Furthermore, because sidechains transfer existing assets from the parent chain rather than creating new ones, sidechains cannot cause unauthorised creation of coins, relying instead on the parent chain to maintain the security and scarcity of its assets.

Further still, participants do not need to be as concerned that their holdings are locked in a single experimental altchain, since sidechain coins can be redeemed for an equal number of parent chain coins. This provides an exit strategy, reducing harm from unmaintained software.

On the other hand, because sidechains are still blockchains independent of Bitcoin, they are free to experiment with new transaction designs, trust models, economic models, asset issuance semantics, or cryptographic features. We will explore many of the possibilities for sidechains further in Section 5.

An additional benefit to this infrastructure is that making changes to Bitcoin itself becomes much less pressing: rather than orchestrating a fork which all parties need to agree on and implement in tandem, a new “changed Bitcoin” could be created as a sidechain. If, in the medium term, there
were wide agreement that the new system was an improvement, it may end up seeing significantly more use than Bitcoin. As there are no changes to parent chain consensus rules, everyone can switch in their own time without any of the risks associated with consensus failure.
---

i think we've identified numerous potential problems in different scenarios in the last several pages that need answering.  i'm not going to repeat them yet again.
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