Bitcoin Forum
November 24, 2017, 04:37:13 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 [764] 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 ... 1558 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2013501 times)
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:00:47 AM
 #15261

Bitcoin is a self contained financial system, meaning that its bitcoin are inextricably linked to its blockchain.  they give each other mutual value.  they only interact with the fiat system in terms of the price at the edges at exchanges or in p2p tx's.

anything that breaks this linkage potentially kills Bitcoin.

SC's break this linkage as it moves these units onto a different blockchain with a different security model and different properties.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1511498233
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511498233

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511498233
Reply with quote  #2

1511498233
Report to moderator
1511498233
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511498233

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511498233
Reply with quote  #2

1511498233
Report to moderator
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:01:49 AM
 #15262

Increased utility has to make up for less security if someone is willing to use the SC. The price will be the same with a two way peg.

So obvious yet seemingly so hard to understand

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372



View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:03:38 AM
 #15263

I do want to ask though, does this mean you're bearish on Bitcoin now?
I had to sell some, Gavin talking about a fork not an evolution, and this this is devastating IMO.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372



View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:05:17 AM
 #15264

Initially we can't expect shit IMO, because the volume will be low, and that's assuming some credible exchange lists SCs. The amount that is arbed until the price gets close shouldn't be too high. I'm certain that if a credible exchange took it up and it actually had significant volume while being substantially below peg rate, despite any doubts of people with newly converted to SCs, the pressure up would be far higher than the pressure down.

Why a thousand SCs? Are people really going to flow to so many, or do you expect them to do it in series as one gets deserted after the other?

there will be thousands b/c it's just software.  no real work involved.

Yes, BUT some are world wide and some are local.

Closed systems may benefit but global ones will kill Bitcoin.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:09:37 AM
 #15265

Increased utility has to make up for less security if someone is willing to use the SC. The price will be the same with a two way peg.

So obvious yet seemingly so hard to understand

how do you know a brand new will be effective even if it is vetted by devs?  only with use, time, and multiple hacking attempts will you know definitively.  otoh, you know for a fact that a MM rate of say 50% that of the Bitcoin network will cause a decrease in security for the SC.  the market will price that in even though you won't.

so naive.
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:10:08 AM
 #15266

but that won't be proven right out of the box.  it will take time, experimentation, and speculation on the SC before the market will "trust" the SC, if ever at all.  in the meantime, expect the true value of 1 scBTC < 1 BTC.

this is another thing you don't understand, the 1:1 sidechain "market" doesn't have to prove itself, and in fact it is very likely there is no such speculation that you are referencing.

the likeliest candidates to sidechains are UTILITY chains on a 1:1 peg issuing no assets. they are to be used "in and out" or with only a fraction of the user's BTC trusted to it.

it seems very probable to me these sidechains can be proven valuable and secure "out of the box". assuming the sidechain concept (two-way peg, merged mining, etc.)has been implemented, tested and vetted for some time. From there on, candidate sidechain essentially leverages this implementation and present a code that discloses the exact behaviour of the chain which is then reviewed extensively by the community before an "official launch". Additionaly, we also have to consider that the SC could also be leveraging existing technologies or concepts that have been confirmed to work successfuly in a different environment.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:12:35 AM
 #15267

how do you know a brand new will be effective even if it is vetted by devs?  only with use, time, and multiple hacking attempts will you know definitively.  otoh, you know for a fact that a MM rate of say 50% that of the Bitcoin network will cause a decrease in security for the SC.  the market will price that in even though you won't.

so naive.

read above for the first part of your question.

as for MM. I expect the MAJORITY of miners to support an utility sidechain putting forth a significant feature that should attract considerable use and therefore profit for them.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:20:38 AM
 #15268

there may be some in scBTC who need to get out fast for IRL reasons and would rather take a slight loss selling on an exchange rather than going back thru the peg with it's contest/confirmation delays.  ppl do all sorts of crazy shit.

several proponents here have already agreed scBTC would be priced less than BTC, at least initially.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

so your argument relies on ppl doing all sort of crazy shit but you expect me to prove things without the shadow of a doubt

you can't be serious  Huh

this is a terrible, terrible answer and in fact there is no reasonable scenario for such a thing to happen. the only one I can envision where people would be selling their scBTC at a fiat loss instead of returning to the BTC mainchain is if a failure in the SC implementation doesn't allow it i.e. extremely unlikely and would be an exception that does not define the rule

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 2324


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:22:21 AM
 #15269

Something is making the guy soil himself multiple times per day.  ...
That's insulting.  ...
No!  Really???


cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:23:20 AM
 #15270

Bitcoin is a self contained financial system, meaning that its bitcoin are inextricably linked to its blockchain.  they give each other mutual value. 
What if all bitcoins were destroyed but one? Would it have less value?

they only interact with the fiat system in terms of the price at the edges at exchanges or in p2p tx's.

You can think of SCs as exchanges because they are in fact different currencies.

anything that breaks this linkage potentially kills Bitcoin.
Don't more exchanges actually increase liquidity?

SC's break this linkage as it moves these units onto a different blockchain with a different security model and different properties.
How is that any different than selling them for fiat like is happening now? Bitcoin will have to earn confidence, and that will just take time. If a better altcoin comes along, then so be it, but SCs will be designed to trade risk for additional functionality. If they become altcoins, then they will suffer the same fate as their 1000 predecessors.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:26:57 AM
 #15271

another way to address your point is that a "theoretical" will never trump a "known".

we know MM is less secure than direct mining.  we don't know that a new untested "innovation" will exactly counter weigh the value of less security.

remember a week ago when you proposed that your anonymous sidechain would be so attractive it would effectively siphon all the BTC out of the mainchain  Huh

now you are not so certain about "innovations" because they don't fit your argument ?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:29:57 AM
 #15272

that's b/c altcoins don't have the luxury of being MM'd by the Bitcoin miners.

the only chance SC's have to sell their whole concept is if Austin Hill can introduce a market distortion by convincing miners to MM.  you know, the "something for nothing" concept.

"market distortion"

 Cheesy

surely you mean "profit incentive" right?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:36:13 AM
 #15273

I do want to ask though, does this mean you're bearish on Bitcoin now?
I had to sell some, Gavin talking about a fork not an evolution, and this this is devastating IMO.
Forks are the definition of evolution. Every species goes extinct. All of them. We are not the same species as our predecessors and our future progeny will not be the same species as us. Still, they trace a direct lineage. Forking the blockchain will allow a more adaptable Bitcoin that can survive the changing economic environment. Just because all the others who have tried failed, doesn't mean Gavin's version will fail. What will happen if nothing is done?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 2324


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:37:18 AM
 #15274

the guy is not known for his manners.  in fact, if i say one thing, you can be guaranteed he'll just say the opposite to disagree.

Not true.  We were both saying BTC was possibly a good buy in late 2011.  Just saying it in different tones, and possibly for different reasons.  My clairvoyance is not sufficient to speak authoritatively about the latter though.  You are pretty much right since that time though.  We disagree about more than we agree about to be sure.  And I do have a propensity to disagree (and often enough to be disagreeable.)


solex
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1078


100 satoshis -> ISO code


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:37:49 AM
 #15275

I do want to ask though, does this mean you're bearish on Bitcoin now?
I had to sell some, Gavin talking about a fork not an evolution, and this this is devastating IMO.
Forks are the definition of evolution. Every species goes extinct. All of them. We are not the same species as our predecessors and our future progeny will not be the same species as us. Still, they trace a direct lineage. Forking the blockchain will allow a more adaptable Bitcoin that can survive the changing economic environment. Just because all the others who have tried failed, doesn't mean Gavin's version will fail. What will happen if nothing is done?

Apes losing their tail was a fork in the evolution of primates.

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:38:27 AM
 #15276

another way to address your point is that a "theoretical" will never trump a "known".

we know MM is less secure than direct mining.  we don't know that a new untested "innovation" will exactly counter weigh the value of less security.

remember a week ago when you proposed that your anonymous sidechain would be so attractive it would effectively siphon all the BTC out of the mainchain  Huh

now you are not so certain about "innovations" because they don't fit your argument ?

via a speculative attack.

point being, there are many scenarios here where problems could occur.
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:39:05 AM
 #15277

I do want to ask though, does this mean you're bearish on Bitcoin now?
I had to sell some, Gavin talking about a fork not an evolution, and this this is devastating IMO.
Forks are the definition of evolution. Every species goes extinct. All of them. We are not the same species as our predecessors and our future progeny will not be the same species as us. Still, they trace a direct lineage. Forking the blockchain will allow a more adaptable Bitcoin that can survive the changing economic environment. Just because all the others who have tried failed, doesn't mean Gavin's version will fail. What will happen if nothing is done?

Apes losing their tail was a fork in the evolution of primates.
No. That's not the point and also not true.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:39:15 AM
 #15278

unfortunately, i gotta go for a few hours.

back later.
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:40:52 AM
 #15279


There is no 1:1 peg guarantee. If the SC is inflationary and appeals to a central bank more than Bitcoin they'll use that not BTC. And the minority who want BTC hard money will be eaten for breakfast.

you have lost all of the credibility you have here ever since you started spouting that nonsense. IMO

you have to realize that there is no incentive for someone to create GOVcoin as a sidechain so thus your argument is that the GOV altcoin is going to take BTC over. if that were to happen and if you truly believe that then I suggest you sell all of your BTCs because sidechains are NOT going to have an impact on whether this happens or not

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
November 02, 2014, 12:44:17 AM
 #15280

another way to address your point is that a "theoretical" will never trump a "known".

we know MM is less secure than direct mining.  we don't know that a new untested "innovation" will exactly counter weigh the value of less security.

remember a week ago when you proposed that your anonymous sidechain would be so attractive it would effectively siphon all the BTC out of the mainchain  Huh

now you are not so certain about "innovations" because they don't fit your argument ?

via a speculative attack.

point being, there are many scenarios here where problems could occur.

and the beauty of open-source is the mind share of all of the Bitcoin community can work together to mitigate these problem scenarios..

the obvious point here is you choose to focus on doomsday scenarios without ever considering the successful ones.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Pages: « 1 ... 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 [764] 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 ... 1558 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!