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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2011164 times)
cypherdoc
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November 05, 2014, 03:03:39 PM
 #15701

One could design a SC with a sidecoin plus a faster  tx time for scBTC, I think.

Which goes back to the question i had for you yesterday, is this possible?

Possible I guess, but let me spin the question around. Is this desirable?

Remember that in that scenario the sidecoin does NOT have the same value as the scBTC residing on the same chain.

Ok, we're making progress.  If it's possible then it's a given it will be done. And if it's done, miners WILL defect out of greed to the sc.  So now you'd have 2 drivers of the sc; users and miners. That will kill Bitcoin.  
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brg444
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November 05, 2014, 03:08:33 PM
 #15702

One could design a SC with a sidecoin plus a faster  tx time for scBTC, I think.

Which goes back to the question i had for you yesterday, is this possible?

Possible I guess, but let me spin the question around. Is this desirable?

Remember that in that scenario the sidecoin does NOT have the same value as the scBTC residing on the same chain.

Ok, we're making progres.  If it's possible then it's a given it will be done. And if it's done, miners WILL defect out of greed to the sc.  So now you'd have 2 drivers of the sc; users and miners. That will kill Bitcoi.  

 Roll Eyes

Why are you so conveniently ignoring the essential argument?

NO ONE CARES FOR A SIDECHAIN WITH A SIDECOIN. Users will NOT use it because it does not offer the risk-free put and if users do NOT use it then miners have no incentive to mine it.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 03:14:11 PM
 #15703

One could design a SC with a sidecoin plus a faster  tx time for scBTC, I think.

Which goes back to the question i had for you yesterday, is this possible?

Possible I guess, but let me spin the question around. Is this desirable?

Remember that in that scenario the sidecoin does NOT have the same value as the scBTC residing on the same chain.

Ok, we're making progres.  If it's possible then it's a given it will be done. And if it's done, miners WILL defect out of greed to the sc.  So now you'd have 2 drivers of the sc; users and miners. That will kill Bitcoi.  

 Roll Eyes

Why are you so conveniently ignoring the essential argument?

NO ONE CARES FOR A SIDECHAIN WITH A SIDECOIN. Users will NOT use it because it does not offer the risk-free put and if users do NOT use it then miners have no incentive to mine it.

maybe we're having a definitional misunderstanding?  as i understand it "sidecoin", as you've termed it, is an independent coin that can only be produced on the SC thru mining SC blocks for reward.  it cannot be interchanged with scBTC which is derived from BTC as a result of the 1:1 peg. and sidecoin can't travel thru the peg into the MC.  in this scenario, i envision both travelling securely within the SC, both being secured by MM or direct mining.  they will both be mined for tx fees on the SC and both can take advantage of faster tx times.

is this technically accurate and possible?  b/c if it is, then Bitcoin will die.  if it's not, then your argument is strengthened altho i still see problems.

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November 05, 2014, 03:17:57 PM
 #15704

Goldbugs!  take joy in the fact that i weep in my sleep; everynight now since covering  Sad Cheesy  (not really)



brg444
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November 05, 2014, 03:18:26 PM
 #15705

maybe we're having a definitional misunderstanding?  as i understand it "sidecoin", as you've termed it, is an independent coin that can only be produced on the SC thru mining SC blocks for reward.  it cannot be interchanged with scBTC which is derived from BTC as a result of the 1:1 peg. and sidecoin can't travel thru the peg into the MC.  in this scenario, i envision both travelling securely within the SC, both being secured by MM or direct mining.  they will both be mined for tx fees on the SC and both can take advantage of faster tx times.

is this technically accurate and possible?  b/c if it is, then Bitcoin will die.  if it's not, then your argument is strengthened altho i still see problems.

!!!

yes it is possible.

but address this question : is this desirable for the user? why would I use a sidechain that issues sidecoin if I can use a sidechain with the exact same feature that works only with the 1:1 peg. who would use the "sidecoin" when he has the option of the risk free put of the scBTC


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 03:23:12 PM
 #15706

One could design a SC with a sidecoin plus a faster  tx time for scBTC, I think.

Which goes back to the question i had for you yesterday, is this possible?

Possible I guess, but let me spin the question around. Is this desirable?

Remember that in that scenario the sidecoin does NOT have the same value as the scBTC residing on the same chain.

Ok, we're making progres.  If it's possible then it's a given it will be done. And if it's done, miners WILL defect out of greed to the sc.  So now you'd have 2 drivers of the sc; users and miners. That will kill Bitcoi.  

 Roll Eyes

Why are you so conveniently ignoring the essential argument?

NO ONE CARES FOR A SIDECHAIN WITH A SIDECOIN. Users will NOT use it because it does not offer the risk-free put and if users do NOT use it then miners have no incentive to mine it.

maybe we're having a definitional misunderstanding?  as i understand it "sidecoin", as you've termed it, is an independent coin that can only be produced on the SC thru mining SC blocks for reward.  it cannot be interchanged with scBTC which is derived from BTC as a result of the 1:1 peg. and sidecoin can't travel thru the peg into the MC.  in this scenario, i envision both travelling securely within the SC, both being secured by MM or direct mining.  they will both be mined for tx fees on the SC and both can take advantage of faster tx times.

is this technically accurate and possible?  b/c if it is, then Bitcoin will die.  if it's not, then your argument is strengthened altho i still see problems.

Why would you transfer "sidecoin" when they have $0 value ?  You cannot transfer value using invaluable tokens.  It is like a want buy gold and you give me  gold + your garbage. How this garbage can add value to gold ?
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November 05, 2014, 03:24:42 PM
 #15707

maybe we're having a definitional misunderstanding?  as i understand it "sidecoin", as you've termed it, is an independent coin that can only be produced on the SC thru mining SC blocks for reward.  it cannot be interchanged with scBTC which is derived from BTC as a result of the 1:1 peg. and sidecoin can't travel thru the peg into the MC.  in this scenario, i envision both travelling securely within the SC, both being secured by MM or direct mining.  they will both be mined for tx fees on the SC and both can take advantage of faster tx times.

is this technically accurate and possible?  b/c if it is, then Bitcoin will die.  if it's not, then your argument is strengthened altho i still see problems.

!!!

yes it is possible.

but address this question : is this desirable for the user? why would I use a sidechain that issues sidecoin if I can use a sidechain with the exact same feature that works only with the 1:1 peg. who would use the "sidecoin" when he has the option of the risk free put of the scBTC



as a user and a miner myself, who is losing money mining btw, i would use this SC for 2 reasons; faster tx times for my scBTC thru the peg  and because it's protected by the risk free put AND i would mine the SC either thru MM or directly b/c of the added revenue of sidecoin block rewards and the associated tx fees.

this is called greed in action.

edit:  AND as a speculative bet on the sidecoin appreciation.
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November 05, 2014, 03:26:48 PM
 #15708

One could design a SC with a sidecoin plus a faster  tx time for scBTC, I think.

Which goes back to the question i had for you yesterday, is this possible?

Possible I guess, but let me spin the question around. Is this desirable?

Remember that in that scenario the sidecoin does NOT have the same value as the scBTC residing on the same chain.

Ok, we're making progres.  If it's possible then it's a given it will be done. And if it's done, miners WILL defect out of greed to the sc.  So now you'd have 2 drivers of the sc; users and miners. That will kill Bitcoi.  

 Roll Eyes

Why are you so conveniently ignoring the essential argument?

NO ONE CARES FOR A SIDECHAIN WITH A SIDECOIN. Users will NOT use it because it does not offer the risk-free put and if users do NOT use it then miners have no incentive to mine it.

maybe we're having a definitional misunderstanding?  as i understand it "sidecoin", as you've termed it, is an independent coin that can only be produced on the SC thru mining SC blocks for reward.  it cannot be interchanged with scBTC which is derived from BTC as a result of the 1:1 peg. and sidecoin can't travel thru the peg into the MC.  in this scenario, i envision both travelling securely within the SC, both being secured by MM or direct mining.  they will both be mined for tx fees on the SC and both can take advantage of faster tx times.

is this technically accurate and possible?  b/c if it is, then Bitcoin will die.  if it's not, then your argument is strengthened altho i still see problems.

Why would you transfer "sidecoin" when they have $0 value ?  You cannot transfer value using invaluable tokens.  It is like a want buy gold and you give me  gold + your garbage. How this garbage can add value to gold ?

b/c there will always be some idiots speculating miners and investors who WILL value it. just look at altcoin valuations.  they're small but they're there and can be sold for fiat.  it would also be possible for the sidecoin to actually take off in value which would really be a huge bonus.
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November 05, 2014, 03:31:25 PM
 #15709

gold is at lowest level since 2011
its trading at price of march 2010
and still no one know how much it can drop
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November 05, 2014, 03:31:54 PM
 #15710

gold is at lowest level since 2011
its trading at price of march 2010
and still no one know how much it can drop

i know (how much it can drop)
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November 05, 2014, 03:32:03 PM
 #15711

We can't have democracy without choice.  I have one legit chain to point my hardware at.  I would love to continue to mine Bitcoin, but also be given the choice to support other chains at the same time if they can work synergistically with Bitcoin.  There is a higher bar for sidechains because it is so very obvious that it is a waste of time if it doesn't gain at least a solid niche use.  As a miner, I would want to thoroughly vet a sidechain before I would give up known Bitcoin rewards for transaction-fee only sidechain blocks.  If merge mining were used, we would be pushing the 1 MB limit before long as every chain would want their block hashes on the bitcoin blockchain, so I'm not terribly keen to support that route unless perhaps after a sidechain has proven itself by mining fee-only for some time.

What about this SC.
1. Server(or miners on SC) will collect transactions in SC.
2. When server collect enough fees then server will mine block  and use this fees for timestamping hash of block on MC
3. I think my SC will have same security level as MC -> hidden MM

And if it works, you've just made my point about how you can suck value out of Bitcoin with games by severing the link between the currency and MC

The link can even be severed by MM SC and 51% hashing attack on Bitcoin. The insensitive to mine Bitcoin for profit is no longer preventing this as the profit comes from mining the SC.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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November 05, 2014, 03:36:22 PM
 #15712

as a user and a miner myself, who is losing money mining btw, i would use this SC for 2 reasons; faster tx times for my scBTC thru the peg  and because it's protected by the risk free put AND i would mine the SC either thru MM or directly b/c of the added revenue of sidecoin block rewards and the associated tx fees.

this is called greed in action.

You really don't understand.

I'm at a loss for words

The sidecoin is worthless if people do not use it. As you have stated yourself, people will not use it because they have the option of using the risk free put of the scBTC for the same fast tx feature.

For this reason, if you are capable of any logic, there are no incentives for miners to mine the worthless sidecoin.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 03:39:15 PM
 #15713

as a user and a miner myself, who is losing money mining btw, i would use this SC for 2 reasons; faster tx times for my scBTC thru the peg  and because it's protected by the risk free put AND i would mine the SC either thru MM or directly b/c of the added revenue of sidecoin block rewards and the associated tx fees.

this is called greed in action.

You really don't understand.

I'm at a loss for words

The sidecoin is worthless if people do not use it. As you have stated yourself, people will not use it because they have the option of using the risk free put of the scBTC for the same fast tx feature.

For this reason, if you are capable of any logic, there are no incentives for miners to mine a worthless sidecoin.

and you are simply economically illiterate. 

who says the price of the sidecoin has to be $0?  what if the sidecoin was sideZerocoin as in rocks example?  a speculator, like myself, would seriously buy up a bunch of sideZerocoin on an exchange for FIAT and that alone could drive the price sky high.
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November 05, 2014, 03:40:46 PM
 #15714


b/c there will always be some idiots who WILL value it. just look at altcoin valuations.  they're small but they're there and can be sold for fiat.  it would also be possible for the sidecoin to actually take off in value which would really be a huge bonus.


ok,

SC must provide some utility (eg. fast tx) to be useful.
and then somebody creates SC with same utility without "sidecoin" and sc-block-chain will have only 1/2 size (b/c he removes garbage).

When miner have limited resources then what chain will he prefer.
He can mine 4 useful chains(he can take profit) or only 2 with garbage.
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November 05, 2014, 03:42:22 PM
 #15715


b/c there will always be some idiots who WILL value it. just look at altcoin valuations.  they're small but they're there and can be sold for fiat.  it would also be possible for the sidecoin to actually take off in value which would really be a huge bonus.


ok,

SC must provide some utility (eg. fast tx) to be useful.
and then somebody creates SC with same utility without "sidecoin" and sc-block-chain will have only 1/2 size (b/c he removes garbage).

When miner have limited resources then what chain will he prefer.
He can mine 4 useful chains(he can take profit) or only 2 with garbage.

sideZerocoin, for a Bitcoin miner currently losing money, would be an excellent speculative bet for directly mining sideZerocoin.

not only that, speculators would buy sideZerocoin on exchanges for cash establishing value to draw miners in.
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November 05, 2014, 03:42:47 PM
 #15716

and you are simply economically illiterate. 

who says the price of the sidecoin has to be $0?  what if the sidecoin was sideZerocoin as in rocks example?  a speculator, like myself, would seriously buy up a bunch of sideZerocoin on an exchange for FIAT and that alone could drive the price sky high.

Maybe you're just playing stupid?

The price of the sidecoin is 0$ because no one uses it.

Answer that :

Who would you buy sideZerocoin when you have the option to use scZEROBTC on a 1:1 peg risk-free?

Do you realise there is NO reason for the sidecoin to exist if you can replicate the feature on a 1:1 scBTC

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 03:45:37 PM
 #15717

and you are simply economically illiterate. 

who says the price of the sidecoin has to be $0?  what if the sidecoin was sideZerocoin as in rocks example?  a speculator, like myself, would seriously buy up a bunch of sideZerocoin on an exchange for FIAT and that alone could drive the price sky high.

Maybe you're just playing stupid?

The price of the sidecoin is 0$ because no one uses it.

Answer that :

Who would you buy sideZerocoin when you have the option to use scZEROBTC on a 1:1 peg risk-free?

Do you realise there is NO reason for the sidecoin to exist if you can replicate the feature on a 1:1 scBTC

define this:  scZEROBTC

are you saying another SC would arise once removed from MC?
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November 05, 2014, 03:45:53 PM
 #15718


b/c there will always be some idiots who WILL value it. just look at altcoin valuations.  they're small but they're there and can be sold for fiat.  it would also be possible for the sidecoin to actually take off in value which would really be a huge bonus.


ok,

SC must provide some utility (eg. fast tx) to be useful.
and then somebody creates SC with same utility without "sidecoin" and sc-block-chain will have only 1/2 size (b/c he removes garbage).


When miner have limited resources then what chain will he prefer.
He can mine 4 useful chains(he can take profit) or only 2 with garbage.

he just doesn't get it...

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 03:46:11 PM
 #15719

One could design a SC with a sidecoin plus a faster  tx time for scBTC, I think.

Which goes back to the question i had for you yesterday, is this possible?

Possible I guess, but let me spin the question around. Is this desirable?

Remember that in that scenario the sidecoin does NOT have the same value as the scBTC residing on the same chain.

Ok, we're making progres.  If it's possible then it's a given it will be done. And if it's done, miners WILL defect out of greed to the sc.  So now you'd have 2 drivers of the sc; users and miners. That will kill Bitcoi.  

 Roll Eyes

Why are you so conveniently ignoring the essential argument?

NO ONE CARES FOR A SIDECHAIN WITH A SIDECOIN. Users will NOT use it because it does not offer the risk-free put and if users do NOT use it then miners have no incentive to mine it.

maybe we're having a definitional misunderstanding?  as i understand it "sidecoin", as you've termed it, is an independent coin that can only be produced on the SC thru mining SC blocks for reward.  it cannot be interchanged with scBTC which is derived from BTC as a result of the 1:1 peg. and sidecoin can't travel thru the peg into the MC.  in this scenario, i envision both travelling securely within the SC, both being secured by MM or direct mining.  they will both be mined for tx fees on the SC and both can take advantage of faster tx times.

is this technically accurate and possible?  b/c if it is, then Bitcoin will die.  if it's not, then your argument is strengthened altho i still see problems.

Why would you transfer "sidecoin" when they have $0 value ?  You cannot transfer value using invaluable tokens.  It is like a want buy gold and you give me  gold + your garbage. How this garbage can add value to gold ?

Actually most still think it's gold it's paper gold you transact with it because it's better than gold in that you can move it faster.
It is inflationary. It works with a theoretical 1:1 peg and is discouraged with hi transaction fees.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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November 05, 2014, 03:56:13 PM
 #15720


define this:  scZEROBTC

are you saying another SC would arise once removed from MC?

So we have two sidechains :

A sidechain using only 1:1 pegged unit. This unit offers whatever feature you want, faster tx or zerocoin type privacy.

A sidechain also using 1:1 pegged but issuing, for unknown reasons, a sidecoin. The sidecoin is not fungible with BTC or the scBTC. It has to create its own value. The problem with this chain is there is no interest for the user to use the sidecoin because : a. it offers no additional value than the scBTC on the same chain b. it offers no "risk-free put"

Which chain are people going to use?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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