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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2008771 times)
Odalv
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November 05, 2014, 11:50:20 AM
 #15681

if the scBTC can take advantage of faster tx times, why not?  

miners would like it too as they'd get all those sources of income, tx fees from scBTC and sidecoin, as well as block rewards of sidecoin.  

Because users have no interest for a sidechain with an additional sidecoin. Users will go for the more safe, most risk-averse chain which is the scBTC 1:1 peg model

but the SC would be MM.  just like Namecoin is today with 70% of the Bitcoin hashrate.

Only largely accepted and used sidechains will be mined because only those will have value. As I've stated many times, miners will not MM speculative coins or other obscure schemes that gain little traction, there's no incentive for them to do so.

A sidechain using both scBTC and issued assets (sidecoins) for whatever reason is simply inferior to the superior scBTC 1:1 chain. To serve monetary functions ex: faster transactions, the appSidechain or as I have called them, utility chain, is simply the more logic choice.

That makes no sense.

Miners have nothing to lose by mining the sidecoin in this scenario as it's its own asset  independent from scBTC and not inflationary to it as rocks is trying to imply.. It's just extra money in a different form which they will gladly take.

1. Miners is wasting resources if he keeps another blockchain.
2. Miners is wasting resources on MC adding worthless hash into MC block.
The Bitcoin network protocol was designed to be extremely flexible. It can be used to create timed transactions, escrow transactions, multi-signature transactions, etc. The current features of the client only hint at what will be possible in the future.
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November 05, 2014, 11:52:14 AM
 #15682

Gold collapsing, Bitcoin UP!

Yay!
I guess you have fun with your PM shorts recently. Wink

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November 05, 2014, 11:54:12 AM
 #15683

We can't have democracy without choice.  I have one legit chain to point my hardware at.  I would love to continue to mine Bitcoin, but also be given the choice to support other chains at the same time if they can work synergistically with Bitcoin.  There is a higher bar for sidechains because it is so very obvious that it is a waste of time if it doesn't gain at least a solid niche use.  As a miner, I would want to thoroughly vet a sidechain before I would give up known Bitcoin rewards for transaction-fee only sidechain blocks.  If merge mining were used, we would be pushing the 1 MB limit before long as every chain would want their block hashes on the bitcoin blockchain, so I'm not terribly keen to support that route unless perhaps after a sidechain has proven itself by mining fee-only for some time.

What about this SC.
1. Server(or miners on SC) will collect transactions in SC.
2. When server collect enough fees then server will mine block  and use this fees for timestamping hash of block on MC
3. I think my SC will have same security level as MC -> hidden MM

And if it works, you've just made my point about how you can suck value out of Bitcoin with games by severing the link between the currency and MC

New transaction templates can be added as needed.  Within a few days, there will be plenty of GPU power that accepts and works on it.  Network support will be thorough long before there'll be enough clients who understand how to receive and interpret the new transaction.

Timestamp hashes are still already possible:

txin: 0.01
txout: 0.00  <appid, hash> OP_CHECKSIG
fee: 0.01

If there's an actual application like BitDNS getting ready to actually start inserting hashes, we can always add a specific transaction template for timestamps.

I like Hal Finney's idea for user-friendly timestamping. Convert the hash of a file to a bitcoin address and send 0.01 to it:

I thought of a simple way to implement the timestamp concept I mentioned above. Run sha1sum on the file you want to timestamp. Convert the result to a Bitcoin address, such as via http://blockexplorer.com/q/hashtoaddress . Then send a small payment to that address.

The money will be lost forever, as there is no way to spend it further, but the timestamp Bitcoin address will remain in the block chain as a record of the file's existence.

I understand that this is arguably not a good use of the Bitcoin distributed database, but nothing stops people from doing this so we should be aware that it may be done.

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November 05, 2014, 11:58:03 AM
 #15684

if the scBTC can take advantage of faster tx times, why not?  

miners would like it too as they'd get all those sources of income, tx fees from scBTC and sidecoin, as wel
l as block rewards of sidecoin.  

Because users have no interest for a sidechain with an additional sidecoin. Users will go for the more safe, most risk-averse chain which is the scBTC 1:1 peg model

but the SC would be MM.  just like Namecoin is today with 70% of the Bitcoin hashrate.

Only largely accepted and used sidechains will be mined because only those will have value. As I've stated many times, miners will not MM speculative coins or other obscure schemes that gain little traction, there's no incentive for them to do so.

A sidechain using both scBTC and issued assets (sidecoins) for whatever reason is simply inferior to the superior scBTC 1:1 chain. To serve monetary functions ex: faster transactions, the appSidechain or as I have called them, utility chain, is simply the more logic choice.

That makes no sense.

Miners have nothing to lose by mining the sidecoin in this scenario as it's its own asset  independent from scBTC and not inflationary to it as rocks is trying to imply.. It's just extra money in a different form which they will gladly take.

1. Miners is wasting resources if he keeps another blockchain.
2. Miners is wasting resources on MC adding worthless hash into MC block.


Yes  but maybe more than counterbalanced by sidecoin appreciation.
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November 05, 2014, 12:01:07 PM
 #15685

Gold collapsing, Bitcoin UP!

Yay!
I guess you have fun with your PM shorts recently. Wink

I closed them out one dump too soon but that's ok. Ive made  plenty off of tvbcof already. 
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November 05, 2014, 12:14:44 PM
 #15686

Side Chains present new existential risks to Bitcoin that may result in the end of Bitcoin.
Side Chains present new opportunities that may lead to vastly more adoption, reducing risks to Bitcoin, improving its value, and making it more secure.
Both of the above statements are true.
If you think only one of them is true, you don't understand Side Chains.

> "Side Chains present new existential risks to Bitcoin that may result in the end of Bitcoin."
How can you prove this ?

 - SC is not new. We have a lot of SC. (Exchanges, WebWallets, payment processors, OT, ...)
 - Blockstream whitepaper only gave them names  2wp, SPV proof, blockchain concept ... and brings new ideas how to use them.


it's not the same.  you are separating the currency units from its original secure blockchain.  

Bitstamp, Houbi, OkCoin, BTC-E exist. Those are 2-way-peg SCs. They use CENTRAL entity controlled 2wp.
If some exchange switch into Federated peg or will use oracles then we will have safer exchanges.

I'm not separating nothing. Traders send bitcoin to exchange (to sidechain controled by central entity).


Quote
yes, an exchange keeps its own internal order book and tracks trades but the actual aggregate BTC still sit securely on the exchanges private keys.

when an exchange gets hacked its those private keys that get stolen, not the order book.

Using different 2wp hacking can be harder  b/c BTC are not stored in exchange wallet (bitcoin can be locked in MC)
This does not require any change to bitcoin protocol.

I don't have a problem with federated pegs because they don't involve protocol changes.
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November 05, 2014, 12:36:47 PM
 #15687



I haven't had time to go over the 100+ pages on the topic

And it shows.

sideZerocoins are not convertible to scZerocoins and therefore BTC. They are it's own unique asset and therfore not inflationary to BTC

As far as  your second point about a fixed supply of 21M BTC always holding value despite being spread out over a thousand different sidechains? Think if it this way. You're taking a chunk of highly valued, highly secure coins off an unhackable ledger  and moving them over to a thousand different insecure quite hackable ledgers.  The equilibrium BTC  price after arb   will be dragged lower
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November 05, 2014, 12:52:52 PM
 #15688

Odalv. Out  of  curiosity, what's your relative positions of altcoins to
bitcoins? Do you own many bitcoins?
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November 05, 2014, 01:40:42 PM
 #15689

Bitcoin rocket fueling up
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November 05, 2014, 01:47:42 PM
 #15690

Not looking good...

Buyers of physical will - in the end - determine the price.
Good luck getting to "the end". ermember "markets can stay irrational longer than you can remain solvent"

Yes. Most phyzz investors are not in the game for a dollar value (at least, not the current dollar).

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November 05, 2014, 01:50:25 PM
 #15691

Bitcoin rocket fueling up
I am ready!



 
 
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Odalv
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November 05, 2014, 02:18:04 PM
 #15692

Odalv. Out  of  curiosity, what's your relative positions of altcoins to
bitcoins? Do you own many bitcoins?

I only own BTC. I do not have any ShitCoins and I do not plan to hold any.
SC is not ShitCoin. Sidechain is technology how to build services on top of bitcoin protocol.

network {TCP/IP, Novel, ... }
services {mail, http, ftp, dns, ...}

network=MC {Bitcoin, Litecoin, ...}
services=SC {ExchangeSC{MergerSC}, FastWalletSC, MixerSC, ...}

I want to scale Bitcoin to the level -> Bitcoin is used everywhere.
 - keep what bitcoin is (store of value, and value highway -> you can transfer any amount of value thru bitcon-blockchain)
 - OTOH I understand how to add new functionality into it. (better security, privacy, transaction speed, small block-chain - I WANT to keep my copy of main-blockchain where I store my value)


Edit:
Federated peg is good enough for me.
I was only trying to explain you what SC is.
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November 05, 2014, 02:32:02 PM
 #15693

That makes no sense.

Miners have nothing to lose by mining the sidecoin in this scenario as it's its own asset  independent from scBTC and not inflationary to it as rocks is trying to imply.. It's just extra money in a different form which they will gladly take.

man you are stubborn....

miners have no incentive mining the sidecoin because it will not be used. there will be no value in it.

exactly for the same reason they don't mine most of the altcoins right now. no reason to bother.

a sidecoin booted on top of a sidechain is an inferior chain to its equivalent 1:1 scBTC peg. that's all it comes down to

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 02:35:58 PM
 #15694


Yes  but maybe more than counterbalanced by sidecoin appreciation.

except no one is using the sidecoin

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 02:40:52 PM
 #15695

That makes no sense.

Miners have nothing to lose by mining the sidecoin in this scenario as it's its own asset  independent from scBTC and not inflationary to it as rocks is trying to imply.. It's just extra money in a different form which they will gladly take.

man you are stubborn....

miners have no incentive mining the sidecoin because it will not be used. there will be no value in it.

exactly for the same reason they don't mine most of the altcoins right now. no reason to bother.

a sidecoin booted on top of a sidechain is an inferior chain to its equivalent 1:1 scBTC peg. that's all it comes down to

You haven't explained why no one would use the Sc. It has a faster tx time. 
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November 05, 2014, 02:41:41 PM
 #15696

That makes no sense.

Miners have nothing to lose by mining the sidecoin in this scenario as it's its own asset  independent from scBTC and not inflationary to it as rocks is trying to imply.. It's just extra money in a different form which they will gladly take.

man you are stubborn....

miners have no incentive mining the sidecoin because it will not be used. there will be no value in it.

exactly for the same reason they don't mine most of the altcoins right now. no reason to bother.

a sidecoin booted on top of a sidechain is an inferior chain to its equivalent 1:1 scBTC peg. that's all it comes down to

You haven't explained why no one would use the Sc. It has a faster tx time. 

scBTC also has the faster tx time. it doesn't need sidecoin to do that

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 02:44:52 PM
 #15697

That makes no sense.

Miners have nothing to lose by mining the sidecoin in this scenario as it's its own asset  independent from scBTC and not inflationary to it as rocks is trying to imply.. It's just extra money in a different form which they will gladly take.

man you are stubborn....

miners have no incentive mining the sidecoin because it will not be used. there will be no value in it.

exactly for the same reason they don't mine most of the altcoins right now. no reason to bother.

a sidecoin booted on top of a sidechain is an inferior chain to its equivalent 1:1 scBTC peg. that's all it comes down to

You haven't explained why no one would use the Sc. It has a faster tx time. 

scBTC also has the faster tx time. it doesn't need sidecoin to do that

That's precisely my point. ScBTC has faster  tx time. Therefore SC will be used and even
more so because miners can earn sidecoin as well. 
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November 05, 2014, 02:50:06 PM
 #15698

That makes no sense.

Miners have nothing to lose by mining the sidecoin in this scenario as it's its own asset  independent from scBTC and not inflationary to it as rocks is trying to imply.. It's just extra money in a different form which they will gladly take.

man you are stubborn....

miners have no incentive mining the sidecoin because it will not be used. there will be no value in it.

exactly for the same reason they don't mine most of the altcoins right now. no reason to bother.

a sidecoin booted on top of a sidechain is an inferior chain to its equivalent 1:1 scBTC peg. that's all it comes down to

You haven't explained why no one would use the Sc. It has a faster tx time. 

scBTC also has the faster tx time. it doesn't need sidecoin to do that

That's precisely my point. ScBTC has faster  tx time. Therefore SC will be used and even
more so because miners can earn sidecoin as well. 

 Huh

where do you get the idea that there is any sidecoin created. that is precisely my point. yes the SC will be used. NO there will not be any sidecoin subsidy. there is no reason or need for one.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 05, 2014, 02:54:27 PM
 #15699

That makes no sense.

Miners have nothing to lose by mining the sidecoin in this scenario as it's its own asset  independent from scBTC and not inflationary to it as rocks is trying to imply.. It's just extra money in a different form which they will gladly take.

man you are stubborn....

miners have no incentive mining the sidecoin because it will not be used. there will be no value in it.

exactly for the same reason they don't mine most of the altcoins right now. no reason to bother.

a sidecoin booted on top of a sidechain is an inferior chain to its equivalent 1:1 scBTC peg. that's all it comes down to

You haven't explained why no one would use the Sc. It has a faster tx time. 

scBTC also has the faster tx time. it doesn't need sidecoin to do that

That's precisely my point. ScBTC has faster  tx time. Therefore SC will be used and even
more so because miners can earn sidecoin as well. 

 Huh

where do you get the idea that there is any sidecoin created. that is precisely my point. yes the SC will be used. NO there will not be any sidecoin subsidy. there is no reason or need for one.

One could design a SC with a sidecoin plus a faster  tx time for scBTC, I think.

Which goes back to the question i had for you yesterday, is this possible?
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November 05, 2014, 02:58:55 PM
 #15700

One could design a SC with a sidecoin plus a faster  tx time for scBTC, I think.

Which goes back to the question i had for you yesterday, is this possible?

Possible I guess, but let me spin the question around. Is this desirable?

Remember that in that scenario the sidecoin does NOT have the same value as the scBTC residing on the same chain. Users & miners have no use for the sidecoin as the scBTC is safer, more risk-averse (it has the "risk-free" put as you put it)

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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