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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808621 times)
tvbcof
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October 26, 2014, 07:49:32 PM
 #14661

...
These reasonably high valuations have resulted in amazingly fast growth in the mining side of infrastructure.  Pretty much only the mining side, unfortunately, because that is where the designer(s) saw fit to provide a reward.  When I first read about Bitcoin I was under the misconception that transferring transactions was rewarded.  Then I thought that there was a mechanism imagined for it but it just was not implemented yet.  Now I see no sign of it.  Oh well.
...

I don't see it like that, the blockchain is maintained by the nodes, the nodes are the ones paying the price for included transactions, they pay for bandwidth and storage. As a result they hold the ability to propagate the protocol  that is used (including mining fees). Miners on the other hand are competing for the fees, they have the ability to charge, but not at the expense of exclusion from acceptance by the nodes.

That's pretty much what I was saying.  There is no reward for running nodes which simply transfer transactions without mining and thus as it becomes more difficult to do so they are increasingly underrepresented.

From day one I felt that transmission of transactions was more important than mining.  Maybe Satoshi didn't anticipate pooled efforts and overlay networks so that even those with mining gear need not be transfer agents, but I find it unlikely.  I'm sorely disappointed that the system did not incentivize development of a robust and diverse transmission network.

There is excess mining now and will be most likely untill the latter half of 2016,  but they won't be able to sustain themselves with high fees, (effectively they want huge transaction (in data size) not value to earn more while nodes want less.

SC take advantage of excess mining capacity and security today but will not allow mining power to scale to the appropriate size to protect the value stored on the blockchain in say 1 or 2 halvings. As the miners won't secure it if the value isn't reflected in there reward and fees. (SC depend on Bitcoin, boasting that they take the load off the network, adding value elsewhere at the protocol level) - seems like a blockchain cancer to me when I project 6 years ahead.  

Actually, as I read the SC whitepaper, there is incentive to mine Bitcoin even if it is unprofitable because, as the value foundation, Bitcoin is critical to the function of the sidechain.  Score another one for sidechains.

The key element behind all of this is that Bitcoin proper maintains it's value.  And speaking for myself, the value of Bitcoin rests in huge part on it being independent from centralized control and realistically defensible from attack by those with significant resources (esp, governments and the judicial influence they have on corporations.)  Should that foundation fail so would the sidechain efforts which ride on top of it.


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October 26, 2014, 07:51:20 PM
 #14662

-- This is equivalent to saying there is no reason to use Monero in the first place. Everyone there was there because they believed in a pure anonymous coin and the market it served. However now with that possibility achieved via sidechains, there remains no reason to be in Monero any longer (imo).

This is jumping the gun a little, isn't it?
Isn't it a bit like saying:  "Now with the theory of relativity, there is no reason to use gasoline".
Or "because of the theory of quantum cryptography, there remains no reason to be in Bitcoin any longer".
A description of a thing, is quite different from the thing itself.


It was a jump a few months back when it was just an iffy concept - that is a few days ago when 3 of the core devs signed onto blockstream. Now its implementation is all but inevitable (imo). So, no its not much of a jump. It's essentially a recap of the first comment I made in this thread which started people talking about sidechains in the first place.

Still... jumping the gun.
Or jumping the vaporware if you'd rather.
Is there a delivery date with committed features even?
This seems like telling people to sell Quicken because Microsoft announces they are going to make "Microsoft Money".


We will see. This is the speculation forum after all  Wink

Bro, do you even blockchain?
-E Voorhees
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October 26, 2014, 08:14:50 PM
 #14663

https://xapo.com/post/what-is-bitcoin-the-best-money-in-human-history/

a nice write up from Ted Rogers at Xapo.

obviously inspired by Wences speeches but still a good, condensed, text version


Yeah, that was great. I'm glad to see the Xapo leadership really making an effort to educate people about what a breakthrough in *money* bitcoin is. This phase we're in where it's fashionable in tech/fintech circles to disregard the currency yet still talk up "blockchain tech" is very frustrating.

I'm even seeing it on ZapChain, which is supposed to be a community of bitcoin leaders. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the tech-oriented crowd doesn't think through, or really care about, societal economic/monetary/history issues at all, and so it's easier for them to miss the point and just get all wide-eyed about this "amazing blockchain tech". Fortunately, the technology is what it is, and they'll have to make these realizations eventually. At some point, market forces will make them think hard about what exactly blockchains do well, what they don't, and *why*.

In the meantime, as I've said for years, one of bitcoin's biggest hurdles is education. It's remarkably multidisciplinary, and to *truly* get it, you have to understand tech/cs, as well as monetary theory, some econ and history, and have an open-mind to boot. Not a frequent combo, which is why I'm continually amazed that bitcoin has gotten as far as it has in only 5 years.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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October 26, 2014, 09:18:12 PM
 #14664

http://gendal.wordpress.com/2014/10/26/a-simple-explanation-of-bitcoin-sidechains/

Found this on Reddit. Nice breakdown for us non-techies.
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October 26, 2014, 10:20:30 PM
 #14665

http://gendal.wordpress.com/2014/10/26/a-simple-explanation-of-bitcoin-sidechains/

Found this on Reddit. Nice breakdown for us non-techies.

"If you’ve followed Bitcoin for any time, you’ll know this is a seriously eminent group of authors"

I plead ignorance, but none of these names are familiar to me. Bitcoinica, Goxxed, Prirate40 etc, on the other hand...  Grin

But having said so, the breakdown in the link is indeed a very comprehensible layman's summary of side chains.


Like this post? you can tip me (BTC) 1LGi2DMhectdFSkBid5srrnHk8WHgD3V1d or very WoW (Doge) D9p6FZQb1sKkq9hApy4tnjSduYfdnc74bb
nanobrain
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Dumb broad


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October 27, 2014, 12:40:23 AM
 #14666

just had a good laugh  Cheesy

Quote
Therefore, for any of you out there thinking that bitcoin is dead in the water, it might be.  The currency is not the important factor.  The important factor is the cryptographically secure blockchain protocol, as this gives the protocol the ability to record and transfer value without trusted third parties such as banks.  That technology, given to the world by Satoshi Nakamoto, may just transform everything including banking.

http://thefinanser.co.uk/fsclub/2014/10/the-importance-of-cryptocurrencies-and-the-blockchain-to-banks-and-everyone.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


It's a little insane how willing people are to make statements of certainty without understanding what they're talking about. I often wonder whether people prone to that are knowingly speaking without a full understanding, or if they're just too stupid to know that they don't know something.
Absolutely, the speed with wich this meme is spreading shows how few people of the top tier of society are able to think for themselves. Pretty scary.

Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

nothing to see here
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October 27, 2014, 12:48:34 AM
 #14667

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Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.

dillpicklechips
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October 27, 2014, 01:17:06 AM
 #14668

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Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.
Perhaps very few people actually understand the technology and are repeating what other are saying. Since so many are praising the blockchain it's easy to repeat the sentiment. The currency part and the blockchain from a layperson may appear seperate. It doesn't really bother me though as eventually they will have to concede that either they were wrong about blockchains or the currency. I have a feeling it may be the later.
Odalv
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October 27, 2014, 01:42:51 AM
 #14669

Quote
Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.
Perhaps very few people actually understand the technology and are repeating what other are saying. Since so many are praising the blockchain it's easy to repeat the sentiment. The currency part and the blockchain from a layperson may appear seperate. It doesn't really bother me though as eventually they will have to concede that either they were wrong about blockchains or the currency. I have a feeling it may be the later.

There is blockchain as technology. It is very easy to create as many blockchains as possible.  Blockchain can be POW, POS, DPOS,  cetralized ...  but it can transfer a valuable tokens only if it has valuable tokens. And the most valuable tokens are bitcoins.
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October 27, 2014, 01:46:14 AM
 #14670


In the meantime, as I've said for years, one of bitcoin's biggest hurdles is education. It's remarkably multidisciplinary, and to *truly* get it, you have to understand tech/cs, as well as monetary theory, some econ and history, and have an open-mind to boot. Not a frequent combo, which is why I'm continually amazed that bitcoin has gotten as far as it has in only 5 years.

I've wondered the same thing. That combo is so rare that one can only conclude that the system of incentives is working.

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
brg444
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October 27, 2014, 01:49:13 AM
 #14671


In the meantime, as I've said for years, one of bitcoin's biggest hurdles is education. It's remarkably multidisciplinary, and to *truly* get it, you have to understand tech/cs, as well as monetary theory, some econ and history, and have an open-mind to boot. Not a frequent combo, which is why I'm continually amazed that bitcoin has gotten as far as it has in only 5 years.

I've wondered the same thing. That combo is so rare that one can only conclude that the system of incentives is working.

Indeed, a masterful job of bootstrapping by Satoshi.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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October 27, 2014, 02:01:03 AM
 #14672

Bitcoin as it stands today is way undervalued as simply a reserve currency for final settlements. Even if they raise the transaction fee to 20 USD it would still be cheap for an irreversible international wire transfer. Even if they only use it for high finance, it's still way undervalued. This is why we are long in Bitcoin.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
tvbcof
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October 27, 2014, 02:23:33 AM
 #14673


In the meantime, as I've said for years, one of bitcoin's biggest hurdles is education. It's remarkably multidisciplinary, and to *truly* get it, you have to understand tech/cs, as well as monetary theory, some econ and history, and have an open-mind to boot. Not a frequent combo, which is why I'm continually amazed that bitcoin has gotten as far as it has in only 5 years.

I've wondered the same thing. That combo is so rare that one can only conclude that the system of incentives is working.

I'm not totally convinced of that.  The world abounds with shitty designs and shockingly awful implementations which did extremely well.  Often on the back of a first-mover advantage, but also often enough on more basic accidents of fate.

Microsoft is an outstanding example.  As an operating system, DOS and Windows were both quick-n-dirty hack and well below state-of-the-art even at that time(*).  The legacy of fail is still felt today.  In terms of implementation Gates utterly missed the boat on the Internet and set the operation back by a fair bit yet the software still basically rules the roost anyway all these years later.

I'm not saying that Satoshi(s) didn't get the economics right, and he may well have gotten them amazingly right.  It is debatable however.  Hindsight is 20/20 but I, for one, see some things which I think would have worked better.  All I am saying really is that in the real world amazing success is possible even with some pretty significant defects.

(*)  One could argue that DOS and WFW were the best they could do with the processors and memory available at the time.  Maybe that is true for DOS, but I don't believe it is for NT (much less WFW).  I switched to FreeBSD from NT4.0 (Hardware: 486DX 8MB ram IIRC) and it was all around better.  I never switched back.  One could still argue that legal hassles intervened which is legit.


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Dumb broad


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October 27, 2014, 03:33:14 AM
 #14674

Quote
Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.

Thanks to those who responded.

As for this gem (above) -- I'm stunned but not surprised.  Everyone else except you is "clueless"; quelle surprise.

Since others seem to have pointed out the massive blind spot in your thinking I won't reiterate.

For those a little more flexible I suggest:
Bitcoin: It’s the platform, not the currency, stupid!
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/02/15/bitcoin-platform-currency/1/

Which nailed it back in February.

And of course, all this has happened before with radio, telecoms, the internet and other technology as Tim Wu's "The Master Switch" eloquently describes: the hegemony will strip "bitcoin" of all the useful components it needs to continue its control and leave the libertarians tilting at windmills.


nothing to see here
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October 27, 2014, 03:45:34 AM
 #14675

Quote
Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.

Thanks to those who responded.

As for this gem (above) -- I'm stunned but not surprised.  Everyone else except you is "clueless"; quelle surprise.

Since others seem to have pointed out the massive blind spot in your thinking I won't reiterate.

For those a little more flexible I suggest:
Bitcoin: It’s the platform, not the currency, stupid!
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/02/15/bitcoin-platform-currency/1/

Which nailed it back in February.

And of course, all this has happened before with radio, telecoms, the internet and other technology as Tim Wu's "The Master Switch" eloquently describes: the hegemony will strip "bitcoin" of all the useful components it needs to continue its control and leave the libertarians tilting at windmills.



 ... not waving, but drowning.

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October 27, 2014, 03:52:50 AM
 #14676

Quote
Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.
It's the bargaining stage of grief for people who procrastinated about buying Bitcoins.
brg444
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October 27, 2014, 04:11:38 AM
 #14677

Quote
Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.

Thanks to those who responded.

As for this gem (above) -- I'm stunned but not surprised.  Everyone else except you is "clueless"; quelle surprise.

Since others seem to have pointed out the massive blind spot in your thinking I won't reiterate.

For those a little more flexible I suggest:
Bitcoin: It’s the platform, not the currency, stupid!
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/02/15/bitcoin-platform-currency/1/

Which nailed it back in February.

And of course, all this has happened before with radio, telecoms, the internet and other technology as Tim Wu's "The Master Switch" eloquently describes: the hegemony will strip "bitcoin" of all the useful components it needs to continue its control and leave the libertarians tilting at windmills.

 Huh


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
marcus_of_augustus
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October 27, 2014, 04:29:13 AM
 #14678

Quote
For those a little more flexible I suggest:
Bitcoin: It’s the platform, not the currency, stupid!
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/02/15/bitcoin-platform-currency/1/

Which nailed it back in February.

sheesh, i didn't bother to read this link until now. It's just a bunch of VC-titillating fluffy buzzwords, no-one with a serious intention for examining this technology should be taking shit like this seriously.

If that is your "must read" "nailed it" material you are going to lose a lot of dough lady.

tabnloz
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October 27, 2014, 04:33:17 AM
 #14679

Quote


Thanks to those who responded.

As for this gem (above) -- I'm stunned but not surprised.  Everyone else except you is "clueless"; quelle surprise.





I dont think M of A was trying to be rude to you specifically Smiley

But anyway, I think this tweet sums up the line of thinking that says blockchain and currency cant be separated

@gendal: @robustus @Chris_Skinner @jonmatonis If you want decentralisation/censorship resistance/no central control, you need a native currency
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October 27, 2014, 04:39:21 AM
 #14680

Quote
For those a little more flexible I suggest:
Bitcoin: It’s the platform, not the currency, stupid!
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/02/15/bitcoin-platform-currency/1/

Which nailed it back in February.

sheesh, i didn't bother to read this until now. It's just a bunch of VC-titillating fluffy buzzwords, no-one with a serious intention for examining this technology should be taking shit like this seriously.

If that is your "must read" "nailed it" material you are going to lose a lot of dough lady.

I think his point may be that you ought to have some balance in your opinion of the blockchain vs. bitcoin debate.

Uninformed proponents championing the possibilities made possible by blockchain tech and dismissing the bitcoin money value should not have you ignore such possibilities.

At the same time, it does seem like putting the cart before the horse. All of the concepts in this article are well ahead in the future and can only truly be realized with the foundation of bitcoin the money.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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