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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1905938 times)
ssmc2
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October 26, 2014, 09:18:12 PM
 #14661

http://gendal.wordpress.com/2014/10/26/a-simple-explanation-of-bitcoin-sidechains/

Found this on Reddit. Nice breakdown for us non-techies.
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October 26, 2014, 10:20:30 PM
 #14662

http://gendal.wordpress.com/2014/10/26/a-simple-explanation-of-bitcoin-sidechains/

Found this on Reddit. Nice breakdown for us non-techies.

"If you’ve followed Bitcoin for any time, you’ll know this is a seriously eminent group of authors"

I plead ignorance, but none of these names are familiar to me. Bitcoinica, Goxxed, Prirate40 etc, on the other hand...  Grin

But having said so, the breakdown in the link is indeed a very comprehensible layman's summary of side chains.


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nanobrain
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October 27, 2014, 12:40:23 AM
 #14663

just had a good laugh  Cheesy

Quote
Therefore, for any of you out there thinking that bitcoin is dead in the water, it might be.  The currency is not the important factor.  The important factor is the cryptographically secure blockchain protocol, as this gives the protocol the ability to record and transfer value without trusted third parties such as banks.  That technology, given to the world by Satoshi Nakamoto, may just transform everything including banking.

http://thefinanser.co.uk/fsclub/2014/10/the-importance-of-cryptocurrencies-and-the-blockchain-to-banks-and-everyone.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


It's a little insane how willing people are to make statements of certainty without understanding what they're talking about. I often wonder whether people prone to that are knowingly speaking without a full understanding, or if they're just too stupid to know that they don't know something.
Absolutely, the speed with wich this meme is spreading shows how few people of the top tier of society are able to think for themselves. Pretty scary.

Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

nothing to see here
marcus_of_augustus
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October 27, 2014, 12:48:34 AM
 #14664

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Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.

dillpicklechips
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October 27, 2014, 01:17:06 AM
 #14665

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Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.
Perhaps very few people actually understand the technology and are repeating what other are saying. Since so many are praising the blockchain it's easy to repeat the sentiment. The currency part and the blockchain from a layperson may appear seperate. It doesn't really bother me though as eventually they will have to concede that either they were wrong about blockchains or the currency. I have a feeling it may be the later.
Odalv
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October 27, 2014, 01:42:51 AM
 #14666

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Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.
Perhaps very few people actually understand the technology and are repeating what other are saying. Since so many are praising the blockchain it's easy to repeat the sentiment. The currency part and the blockchain from a layperson may appear seperate. It doesn't really bother me though as eventually they will have to concede that either they were wrong about blockchains or the currency. I have a feeling it may be the later.

There is blockchain as technology. It is very easy to create as many blockchains as possible.  Blockchain can be POW, POS, DPOS,  cetralized ...  but it can transfer a valuable tokens only if it has valuable tokens. And the most valuable tokens are bitcoins.
majamalu
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October 27, 2014, 01:46:14 AM
 #14667


In the meantime, as I've said for years, one of bitcoin's biggest hurdles is education. It's remarkably multidisciplinary, and to *truly* get it, you have to understand tech/cs, as well as monetary theory, some econ and history, and have an open-mind to boot. Not a frequent combo, which is why I'm continually amazed that bitcoin has gotten as far as it has in only 5 years.

I've wondered the same thing. That combo is so rare that one can only conclude that the system of incentives is working.

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
brg444
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October 27, 2014, 01:49:13 AM
 #14668


In the meantime, as I've said for years, one of bitcoin's biggest hurdles is education. It's remarkably multidisciplinary, and to *truly* get it, you have to understand tech/cs, as well as monetary theory, some econ and history, and have an open-mind to boot. Not a frequent combo, which is why I'm continually amazed that bitcoin has gotten as far as it has in only 5 years.

I've wondered the same thing. That combo is so rare that one can only conclude that the system of incentives is working.

Indeed, a masterful job of bootstrapping by Satoshi.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cbeast
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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October 27, 2014, 02:01:03 AM
 #14669

Bitcoin as it stands today is way undervalued as simply a reserve currency for final settlements. Even if they raise the transaction fee to 20 USD it would still be cheap for an irreversible international wire transfer. Even if they only use it for high finance, it's still way undervalued. This is why we are long in Bitcoin.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 27, 2014, 02:23:33 AM
 #14670


In the meantime, as I've said for years, one of bitcoin's biggest hurdles is education. It's remarkably multidisciplinary, and to *truly* get it, you have to understand tech/cs, as well as monetary theory, some econ and history, and have an open-mind to boot. Not a frequent combo, which is why I'm continually amazed that bitcoin has gotten as far as it has in only 5 years.

I've wondered the same thing. That combo is so rare that one can only conclude that the system of incentives is working.

I'm not totally convinced of that.  The world abounds with shitty designs and shockingly awful implementations which did extremely well.  Often on the back of a first-mover advantage, but also often enough on more basic accidents of fate.

Microsoft is an outstanding example.  As an operating system, DOS and Windows were both quick-n-dirty hack and well below state-of-the-art even at that time(*).  The legacy of fail is still felt today.  In terms of implementation Gates utterly missed the boat on the Internet and set the operation back by a fair bit yet the software still basically rules the roost anyway all these years later.

I'm not saying that Satoshi(s) didn't get the economics right, and he may well have gotten them amazingly right.  It is debatable however.  Hindsight is 20/20 but I, for one, see some things which I think would have worked better.  All I am saying really is that in the real world amazing success is possible even with some pretty significant defects.

(*)  One could argue that DOS and WFW were the best they could do with the processors and memory available at the time.  Maybe that is true for DOS, but I don't believe it is for NT (much less WFW).  I switched to FreeBSD from NT4.0 (Hardware: 486DX 8MB ram IIRC) and it was all around better.  I never switched back.  One could still argue that legal hassles intervened which is legit.


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October 27, 2014, 03:33:14 AM
 #14671

Quote
Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.

Thanks to those who responded.

As for this gem (above) -- I'm stunned but not surprised.  Everyone else except you is "clueless"; quelle surprise.

Since others seem to have pointed out the massive blind spot in your thinking I won't reiterate.

For those a little more flexible I suggest:
Bitcoin: It’s the platform, not the currency, stupid!
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/02/15/bitcoin-platform-currency/1/

Which nailed it back in February.

And of course, all this has happened before with radio, telecoms, the internet and other technology as Tim Wu's "The Master Switch" eloquently describes: the hegemony will strip "bitcoin" of all the useful components it needs to continue its control and leave the libertarians tilting at windmills.


nothing to see here
marcus_of_augustus
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October 27, 2014, 03:45:34 AM
 #14672

Quote
Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.

Thanks to those who responded.

As for this gem (above) -- I'm stunned but not surprised.  Everyone else except you is "clueless"; quelle surprise.

Since others seem to have pointed out the massive blind spot in your thinking I won't reiterate.

For those a little more flexible I suggest:
Bitcoin: It’s the platform, not the currency, stupid!
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/02/15/bitcoin-platform-currency/1/

Which nailed it back in February.

And of course, all this has happened before with radio, telecoms, the internet and other technology as Tim Wu's "The Master Switch" eloquently describes: the hegemony will strip "bitcoin" of all the useful components it needs to continue its control and leave the libertarians tilting at windmills.



 ... not waving, but drowning.

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October 27, 2014, 03:52:50 AM
 #14673

Quote
Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.
It's the bargaining stage of grief for people who procrastinated about buying Bitcoins.
brg444
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October 27, 2014, 04:11:38 AM
 #14674

Quote
Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.

Please ... you really do not understand why bitcoin needs to be valuable for a decentralised blockchain to function?

It's just clueless idiots that are saying this, amazingly they seem to be able to get repeated without critique.

Thanks to those who responded.

As for this gem (above) -- I'm stunned but not surprised.  Everyone else except you is "clueless"; quelle surprise.

Since others seem to have pointed out the massive blind spot in your thinking I won't reiterate.

For those a little more flexible I suggest:
Bitcoin: It’s the platform, not the currency, stupid!
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/02/15/bitcoin-platform-currency/1/

Which nailed it back in February.

And of course, all this has happened before with radio, telecoms, the internet and other technology as Tim Wu's "The Master Switch" eloquently describes: the hegemony will strip "bitcoin" of all the useful components it needs to continue its control and leave the libertarians tilting at windmills.

 Huh


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
marcus_of_augustus
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October 27, 2014, 04:29:13 AM
 #14675

Quote
For those a little more flexible I suggest:
Bitcoin: It’s the platform, not the currency, stupid!
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/02/15/bitcoin-platform-currency/1/

Which nailed it back in February.

sheesh, i didn't bother to read this link until now. It's just a bunch of VC-titillating fluffy buzzwords, no-one with a serious intention for examining this technology should be taking shit like this seriously.

If that is your "must read" "nailed it" material you are going to lose a lot of dough lady.

tabnloz
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October 27, 2014, 04:33:17 AM
 #14676

Quote


Thanks to those who responded.

As for this gem (above) -- I'm stunned but not surprised.  Everyone else except you is "clueless"; quelle surprise.





I dont think M of A was trying to be rude to you specifically Smiley

But anyway, I think this tweet sums up the line of thinking that says blockchain and currency cant be separated

@gendal: @robustus @Chris_Skinner @jonmatonis If you want decentralisation/censorship resistance/no central control, you need a native currency
brg444
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October 27, 2014, 04:39:21 AM
 #14677

Quote
For those a little more flexible I suggest:
Bitcoin: It’s the platform, not the currency, stupid!
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/02/15/bitcoin-platform-currency/1/

Which nailed it back in February.

sheesh, i didn't bother to read this until now. It's just a bunch of VC-titillating fluffy buzzwords, no-one with a serious intention for examining this technology should be taking shit like this seriously.

If that is your "must read" "nailed it" material you are going to lose a lot of dough lady.

I think his point may be that you ought to have some balance in your opinion of the blockchain vs. bitcoin debate.

Uninformed proponents championing the possibilities made possible by blockchain tech and dismissing the bitcoin money value should not have you ignore such possibilities.

At the same time, it does seem like putting the cart before the horse. All of the concepts in this article are well ahead in the future and can only truly be realized with the foundation of bitcoin the money.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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October 27, 2014, 04:39:27 AM
 #14678


Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.
A meme being an evolutionary term, leaves one's lack of understand to a dead end.

While the blockchain is an immutable public ledger preserved for all time it can only preserve information that is equivalent to the value we give the currency. (Or something similar)

If the currency was removed and we just kept the blockchain who would be incentivized to protect it, the currently is the reason miners secure the network, it is the reason attacking the network is economically unsustainable. The value in currency ensures the blockchains existence. You can't have one with out the other.

Well there are the PoS proponents but they too weight the facts in a way that prevents them seeing the wood for the trees.
(All this ignorance means PoS will probably come into favor soonish, and then over time succumb to its shortcomings.)

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
brg444
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October 27, 2014, 04:44:38 AM
 #14679


Can someone explain to me why this is a 'meme' and by inference of the comments above untrue; I have always thought "its the technology, not the currency" is pretty much on the nose as a precis for BTC.  It's been around for some time now.

Or is this just the cool internet kids thinking that anyone in finance couldn't possibly 'understand' and therefore this must simply be parroted.
A meme being an evolutionary term, leaves one's lack of understand to a dead end.

While the blockchain is an immutable public ledger preserved for all time it can only preserve information that is equivalent to the value we give the currency. (Or something similar)

If the currency was removed and we just kept the blockchain who would be incentivized to protect it, the currently is the reason miners secure the network, it is the reason attacking the network is economically unsustainable. The value in currency ensures the blockchains existence. You can't have one with out the other.

Well there are the PoS proponents but they too weight the facts in a way that prevents them seeing the wood for the trees.
(All this ignorance means PoS will probably come into favor soonish, and then over time succumb to its shortcomings.)

PoS being the central bank to Bitcoin's gold, it is only right that incumbents cling on to familiarity in the face of the inevitable crypto revolution

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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October 27, 2014, 04:49:02 AM
 #14680

Quote


Thanks to those who responded.

As for this gem (above) -- I'm stunned but not surprised.  Everyone else except you is "clueless"; quelle surprise.


I dont think M of A was trying to be rude to you specifically Smiley

But anyway, I think this tweet sums up the line of thinking that says blockchain and currency cant be separated

@gendal: @robustus @Chris_Skinner @jonmatonis If you want decentralisation/censorship resistance/no central control, you need a native currency


Yep ... I don't know who is saying this "blockchain not bitcoin" crap but nanobrain has been around long enough you would think, but nothing specific was being levelled at her.

Let's spell it out:

- a distributed consensus needs a database that is protected from cheating by the nodes

- the security for the bitcoin blockchain database is the grinding of the hashing algorithm that guards against cheating

- the P.O.W. hashing is incentivised by the reward provided by the issuance of bitcoin, yes the currency!

- the security of the distributed consensus does NOT function and will get attacked without a sufficiently valuable bitcoin

and at the end of the day what is this amazing blockchain?? It is a sequence of files that have the hash of the previous file included within them ... what? that is it? the true multi-trillion dollar invention here?  Cheesy

In fact, the distributed global ledger is not the blockchain but the UTXO. The blockchain is merely the journal record of what TX took place ... who owns what is in the UTXO. That is where the innovation that bitcoin 2G tech will get built upon ... Wink

"Blockchain Buzz" is last year now, sidechains is the final nail in the coffin for that BS.

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