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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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cbeast
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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October 27, 2014, 06:58:48 AM
 #14661

And why it matters to truly get Bitcoin comes up in all sorts of contexts:

  • Should I invest in altcoins?
  • Can governments kill it?
  • Does switching to bits mean inflation?
  • What would be the effects of sidechains, or of spin-offs?
  • Can I be sure the coins will hold value?
  • Will mining centralization destroy Bitcoin?
  • Can the blockchain be separated from the currency?
  • Are premines an acceptable way of funding innovation?
  • Does the price drop mean Bitcoin is losing popularity?
  • What really gives bitcoins their value?
  • Is the sky falling?
  • Should I start a business, or invest in a business, doing X?

You can see examples of wrong answers to these questions every day, and how the wrong answers drive misguided decisions (and usually lost money).
This list needs to go into an FAQ.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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October 27, 2014, 07:00:16 AM
 #14662

Bitcoin needs a comic book to eli5 it's concepts.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 27, 2014, 07:00:30 AM
 #14663

I think the average user wouldn't care how it works, as long as it works. Only a handful of people understand the thing we nowadays call money either. Crypto must solve a real world problem to gain substantial use in everyday life. From my perspective, this premise is met.  It only takes some time (and perhaps a financial crisis or two) for the larger public to become interested.

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Zangelbert Bingledack
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October 27, 2014, 07:07:58 AM
 #14664

Here are some links to help deepen understanding of Bitcoin and its implications, updated from here:

Money as Memory

Wences Casares talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQTI1OFFFdw&t=2m49s
Polished video of the same: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP0jCjyrew8
Casares again, on Big Think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKkfhi8Eaiw
In text form: https://xapo.com/post/what-is-bitcoin-the-best-money-in-human-history/
Peter R on Money as Memory: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg9247581#msg9247581
From the Fed's own mouth: http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/sr/sr218.pdf
AJ on Money as Memory: http://libertyhq.freeforums.org/fed-economist-predicts-bitcoin-will-end-the-fed-t938-20.html
AJ on What Bitcoin Is: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/t/31743.aspx
Peter R on spin-offs: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563972.300

Natural Order

I, Pencil video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYO3tOqDISE
I, Pencil essay: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/I,_Pencil
How Wolves Change Rivers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q
The Obviousness of Anarchy: http://mises.org/journals/scholar/hasnas.pdf
The Depoliticization of Law: http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebsite/TIL.PDF
AJ on Why Anarchy Fails and Succeeds: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/t/8889.aspx
AJ on Emergent Order: http://archive.freecapitalists.org//forums/t/18619.aspx
Emergent Networks: http://greatestinstruments.net/the-rise-of-emergent-networks-part-2-of-2/
Decentralized Society and Bitcoin Contracts: http://prezi.com/vfdcr18qie2w/decentralized-society-and-bitcoin-contracts/
The Myth of Science as a Public Good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_PVI6V6o-4
Hayek, The Fatal Conceit (google it)

Panarchy

Balaji Srinivasan, Silicon Valley's Ultimate Exit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOubCHLXT6A&t=1m0s
http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/
http://www.panarchy.org/knott/bitcoin.html

Economics

Economics in One Lesson (google it)
Applying Economics to American History: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-LJ3wZjD4I
Libertarian Gallop through American History: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRhtmcxDSIs&t=3m15s
and many more

Investing

rpietila's SSS: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345065.0
Social Role of investors:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1mb27q/bitcoins_vast_overvaluation_appears_caused_by/cc7i6y8
and
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=678866.5
and many more

Smart Contracts

Nick Szabo: http://ojphi.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/548/469

General

Rumors of Bitcoin's Death Greatly Exaggerated: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/p/32931/512864.aspx
ZB on the philosophy of bitcoin (summary): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=230416.msg2450191#msg2450191

Future Applications

Mike Hearn's 2012 talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4L7xDNCmA
Decentralized prediction markets via spin-offs or sidechains: http://www.truthcoin.info/
much more here
brg444
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October 27, 2014, 07:14:36 AM
 #14665

Here are some links to help deepen understanding of Bitcoin and its implications, updated from here:

Money as Memory

Wences Casares talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQTI1OFFFdw&t=2m49s
Polished video of the same: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP0jCjyrew8
Peter R on Money as Memory: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg9247581#msg9247581
From the Fed's own mouth: http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/sr/sr218.pdf
AJ on Money as Memory: http://libertyhq.freeforums.org/fed-economist-predicts-bitcoin-will-end-the-fed-t938-20.html
AJ on What Bitcoin Is: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/t/31743.aspx
Peter R on spin-offs: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563972.300

Natural Order

I, Pencil video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYO3tOqDISE
I, Pencil essay: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/I,_Pencil
How Wolves Change Rivers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q
The Obviousness of Anarchy: http://mises.org/journals/scholar/hasnas.pdf
The Depoliticization of Law: http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebsite/TIL.PDF
AJ on Why Anarchy Fails and Succeeds: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/t/8889.aspx
AJ on Emergent Order: http://archive.freecapitalists.org//forums/t/18619.aspx
Emergent Networks: http://greatestinstruments.net/the-rise-of-emergent-networks-part-2-of-2/
Decentralized Society and Bitcoin Contracts: http://prezi.com/vfdcr18qie2w/decentralized-society-and-bitcoin-contracts/
The Myth of Science as a Public Good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_PVI6V6o-4
Hayek, The Fatal Conceit (google it)

Panarchy

Balaji Srinivasan, Silicon Valley's Ultimate Exit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOubCHLXT6A&t=1m0s
http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/
http://www.panarchy.org/knott/bitcoin.html

Economics

Economics in One Lesson (google it)
Applying Economics to American History: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-LJ3wZjD4I
Libertarian Gallop through American History: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRhtmcxDSIs&t=3m15s
and many more

Investing

rpietila's SSS: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345065.0
Social Role of investors:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1mb27q/bitcoins_vast_overvaluation_appears_caused_by/cc7i6y8
and
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=678866.5
and many more

Smart Contracts

Nick Szabo: http://ojphi.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/548/469

General

Rumors of Bitcoin's Death Greatly Exaggerated: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/p/32931/512864.aspx
ZB on the philosophy of bitcoin (summary): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=230416.msg2450191#msg2450191

Future Applications

Mike Hearn's 2012 talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4L7xDNCmA
Decentralized prediction markets via spin-offs or sidechains: http://www.truthcoin.info/
much more here

Fantastic list, much appreciated

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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October 27, 2014, 04:45:50 PM
 #14666

I think the average user wouldn't care how it works, as long as it works. Only a handful of people understand the thing we nowadays call money either. Crypto must solve a real world problem to gain substantial use in everyday life. From my perspective, this premise is met.  It only takes some time (and perhaps a financial crisis or two) for the larger public to become interested.

This is how I see it. As an investor and monetary activist  Wink I obviously need to "understand Bitcoin". But for mass adoption this is not necessary. Bitcoin/ledger either works and serves as better money/memory, or it does not. If it does, it becomes the future and will be used by everyone (and everything I see suggests this is exactly what is happening). Most everyone will never understand anything more about bitcoin than they do about http - they will only care that it works, is safe, freeing and reliable. "Education" will happen on its own.
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October 27, 2014, 06:23:07 PM
 #14667

I think the average user wouldn't care how it works, as long as it works. Only a handful of people understand the thing we nowadays call money either. Crypto must solve a real world problem to gain substantial use in everyday life. From my perspective, this premise is met.  It only takes some time (and perhaps a financial crisis or two) for the larger public to become interested.

This is how I see it. As an investor and monetary activist  Wink I obviously need to "understand Bitcoin". But for mass adoption this is not necessary. Bitcoin/ledger either works and serves as better money/memory, or it does not. If it does, it becomes the future and will be used by everyone (and everything I see suggests this is exactly what is happening). Most everyone will never understand anything more about bitcoin than they do about http - they will only care that it works, is safe, freeing and reliable. "Education" will happen on its own.


Indeed, but it *does* take that kernel of people who thoroughly understand it to bootstrap it to the point where the natural benefits can permeate to more people. That's what's happened faster than I assumed it would.

As Wences says, (paraphrasing) it's more amazing for bitcoin to have gone from nothing to where it is today, than to go from where it is today to 1-billion+ users.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
Cryptoasset rankings and metrics for investors: http://onchainfx.com
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October 27, 2014, 06:38:12 PM
 #14668

What got me first into bitcoin was a talk by Rick falvinge from a 2012 bitcoin conference. He talked about the rise of the internet and the end of banking. Superb, funny and to the point.
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October 27, 2014, 06:42:35 PM
 #14669

What got me first into bitcoin was a talk by Rick falvinge from a 2012 bitcoin conference. He talked about the rise of the internet and the end of banking. Superb, funny and to the point.

Did you hear his talk at the 2011 bitcoin conference in Prague, too? It's worth a watch, although parts are similar to the 2012 London one.



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October 27, 2014, 07:31:43 PM
 #14670

Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?
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October 27, 2014, 07:37:10 PM
 #14671

Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?
I don't interpret it that way.

Before you can get your BTC back, you've got to perform burn transaction on the sidechain.

So if the sidechain ceases to function entirely, you have no way to generate the SPV proof that lets you claim your BTC.
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October 27, 2014, 07:40:49 PM
 #14672

What got me first into bitcoin was a talk by Rick falvinge from a 2012 bitcoin conference. He talked about the rise of the internet and the end of banking. Superb, funny and to the point.

Did you hear his talk at the 2011 bitcoin conference in Prague, too? It's worth a watch, although parts are similar to the 2012 London one.




Actually I am mistaken. It was that one. But I only watched it in december 2012 Smiley
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October 27, 2014, 07:55:52 PM
 #14673

Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?

I have as long as one is careful to choose a well implemented and managed sidechain and one stays on the ball.

I personally would put only the value on sidechains that I could afford to lose.  This value would grow with time as the sidechains solution and the various implementations of it mature.

I would always only risk any value on a sidechain which could not fail in a way where someone else would end up with my BTC.  A failure mode would have to result in a total loss else I am utterly un-interested in playing.

My calculations are indeed very close to how I play Bitcoin itself.


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October 27, 2014, 08:00:49 PM
 #14674

Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?
I don't interpret it that way.

Before you can get your BTC back, you've got to perform burn transaction on the sidechain.

So if the sidechain ceases to function entirely, you have no way to generate the SPV proof that lets you claim your BTC.

But does the paper state that you have to perform this burn to get back or is that your interpretation of what has to happen?

Reason I ask is that many people seem to believe they can get back no matter what.
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October 27, 2014, 08:02:53 PM
 #14675

Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?

I have as long as one is careful to choose a well implemented and managed sidechain and one stays on the ball.

I personally would put only the value on sidechains that I could afford to lose.  This value would grow with time as the sidechains solution and the various implementations of it mature.

I would always only risk any value on a sidechain which could not fail in a way where someone else would end up with my BTC.  A failure mode would have to result in a total loss else I am utterly un-interested in playing.

My calculations are indeed very close to how I play Bitcoin itself.



what specifically would have to happen to get you to move a significant number of your btc over to the sc?
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October 27, 2014, 08:16:40 PM
 #14676

Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?

I have as long as one is careful to choose a well implemented and managed sidechain and one stays on the ball.

I personally would put only the value on sidechains that I could afford to lose.  This value would grow with time as the sidechains solution and the various implementations of it mature.

I would always only risk any value on a sidechain which could not fail in a way where someone else would end up with my BTC.  A failure mode would have to result in a total loss else I am utterly un-interested in playing.

My calculations are indeed very close to how I play Bitcoin itself.

I like your approach but with alts someone gets your Bitcoin, in effect the demand for Bitcoin is inherent in the trade and the Bitcoin network grows as a result scam or not.

With SC your approach is more conservative than with alts, I expect we'd see as many scam attempts with SC as we've seen with alts.

My question is should that feature be enabled at the protocol level when we have technology to do the same thing with Bitcoin on an application layer like OT?

Loved that Unix programming story earlier.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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October 27, 2014, 08:18:45 PM
 #14677

what specifically would have to happen to get you to move a significant number of your btc over to the sc?

once the sidechains technology has matured enough and has been vetted by different, independent, reviewers

much like Bitcoin, when it has been made clear that the *open-source* code of the sidechain is safe and sound then I see no reason to be concerned with sidechain failure.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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October 27, 2014, 08:20:49 PM
 #14678

Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?
I don't interpret it that way.

Before you can get your BTC back, you've got to perform burn transaction on the sidechain.

So if the sidechain ceases to function entirely, you have no way to generate the SPV proof that lets you claim your BTC.

But does the paper state that you have to perform this burn to get back or is that your interpretation of what has to happen?

Reason I ask is that many people seem to believe they can get back no matter what.
Many believe the exchange will be 1:1 over time and the SC won't can't  be inflated.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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October 27, 2014, 08:24:16 PM
 #14679

Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?
I don't interpret it that way.

Before you can get your BTC back, you've got to perform burn transaction on the sidechain.

So if the sidechain ceases to function entirely, you have no way to generate the SPV proof that lets you claim your BTC.

But does the paper state that you have to perform this burn to get back or is that your interpretation of what has to happen?

Reason I ask is that many people seem to believe they can get back no matter what.
Many believe the exchange will be 1:1 over time and the SC won't can't  be inflated.

Are the sidechains "rules" not set in stone at its creation?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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October 27, 2014, 08:27:06 PM
 #14680

what specifically would have to happen to get you to move a significant number of your btc over to the sc?

once the sidechains technology has matured enough and has been vetted by different, independent, reviewers

much like Bitcoin, when it has been made clear that the *open-source* code of the sidechain is safe and sound then I see no reason to be concerned with sidechain failure.



would a stable or rising price for scbtc enter into that assessment?
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