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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1981946 times)
cypherdoc
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November 02, 2014, 09:46:29 PM
 #15381

that was not his argument.  a simple SC with an innovation should be able to defeat the MC w/o the innovation once block rewards disappear.  why?  the risk free put and everyone taking advantage of the innovation to transact.

No, because a 1:1 SC with an innovation only serves as a subset of Bitcoin's money function.

Example :

An anonymous sidechain is only useful to those wanting to participate in private transactions.

A faster transacting is only useful to those needing faster transactions.

BTC, on the other hand, sit on the most liquid & secure chain, are supported by the biggest infrastructure, carry the most important network effect AND can move freely, back and forth, between the two aforementioned sidechains. The features are effectively user-defined and can be used at will, depending on the user's need.

I don't see exactly how the block reward is relevant considering there is no block subsidy on "a simple SC". Miners will mine both chains and profit from both chains' transactions.





you could be right about anonymity being a niche feature, altho i'd bet you're wrong on this.  the vast majority of Bitcoiners, i believe, want increased privacy.  as far as faster tx's, you are definitely wrong on this.  ask anyone, "would you rather have your tx confirmed in 1 min or 10min?  every single one of them would pick 1 min.

point being, when the block subsidy in MC runs out in 2140 or sooner, the SC will be competing with the MC simply on tx fees but the SC has the added advantage of faster tx's and/or anonymity.  which chain would you rather be on, especially if you were a miner?
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November 02, 2014, 09:49:05 PM
 #15382

In the end you do NOT have to run a SC-enabled client.

If enough of the network do NOT ....

I'll be running a SC-enabled client because they allow for organic network growth using scale-free principles free from hacks like hard-coded MAX_BLOCK_SIZE changes.

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November 02, 2014, 09:54:19 PM
 #15383

MM SC costs a lot of resources.
MM SC has to keep(and collect) all transaction from SC.
No one will be able to keep all sc-blockchain (for 1,000,000,000 SC) and MM them.

this sounds reasonable
Quote
=> There will be only few (1 .. 5 ?) MM SC's
MM will be only used for change bitcoin protocol.



but it doesn't solve the increase in mining centralization as only larger mining pools will be able to MM.
You can choose mining pools. Mining pools operators will offer you more than 1 pool. They will offer you
 a) 1 pool for MM SC1,
 b) 1 pool for MM SC2
 c) 1 pool for MM (SC1+SC2)
 d) 1 pool for NO MM

not sure how that helps.  as you said, only larger actors can afford storing the huge data reqs for MM.  since they are the only ones who can derive income from MM, they push out at the very least solo miners and smaller pools.  that's centralization.
Quote
Quote
and it doesn't solve the increased susceptibility to attack.

Please explain, I do not understand. How somebody will attack.

currently mining pie includes Discus 29%, ghash 18%, Knc 7%.  let's say Austin convinces all 3 of these pools to MM his SC.  well, right there all it would take is for Discus unilaterally to perform a 51% attack.  see Peter Todd explanation as to why this might be beneficial for Discus:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k01du/peter_todd_on_twitter_the_sidechains_paper_is/clgpjpx
bucktotal
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November 02, 2014, 09:58:52 PM
 #15384

Quote
... when the block subsidy in MC runs out in 2140 or sooner, the SC will be competing with the MC simply on tx fees but the SC has the added advantage of faster tx's and/or anonymity.  which chain would you rather be on, especially if you were a miner?

my take on it...

afaik, the peg is maintained algorithmically. there aren't new coins issued on the side chains, but rather, when you convert btc to SC, the units no longer reside on the MC. they now reside on the SC. there is no new issuance of coins. the total number of units is maintained. this is the peg.

as for merge mining. this means you mine both chains, or multiple chains simultaneously. no extra cost. no extra coins. what are the incentives for miners to also merge mine SCs? fees most likely, just like nmc, devcoin etc. whatever they are, they are in addition to the incentives for mining bitcoin. so its not creating a choice of which to be on. they are merge mined and you can transfer your coins back and forth. they reside on the main chain or side chain. the risk is that if you send your coins to a SC and something happens and you lose em, you can't send them back! same as burning them.

i think the idea is fascinating, and worth considering.

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November 02, 2014, 10:08:18 PM
 #15385

Quote
... when the block subsidy in MC runs out in 2140 or sooner, the SC will be competing with the MC simply on tx fees but the SC has the added advantage of faster tx's and/or anonymity.  which chain would you rather be on, especially if you were a miner?

my take on it...

afaik, the peg is maintained algorithmically. there aren't new coins issued on the side chains, but rather, when you convert btc to SC, the units no longer reside on the MC. they now reside on the SC. there is no new issuance of coins. the total number of units is maintained. this is the peg.

as for merge mining. this means you mine both chains, or multiple chains simultaneously. no extra cost. no extra coins. what are the incentives for miners to also merge mine SCs? fees most likely, just like nmc, devcoin etc. whatever they are, they are in addition to the incentives for mining bitcoin. so its not creating a choice of which to be on. they are merge mined and you can transfer your coins back and forth. they reside on the main chain or side chain. the risk is that if you send your coins to a SC and something happens and you lose em, you can't send them back! same as burning them.

i think the idea is fascinating, and worth considering.



but MM does come at a cost; data storage.  that's what odalv was saying above.  therefore when the MC has to compete with a SC simply on fees, miners and BTC holders will have to switch to mine the SC primarily b/c the innovation will have caused defection of BTC and miners and then choose what other blockchains might be out there to MM.  and it probably won't be Bitcoin.
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November 02, 2014, 10:12:18 PM
 #15386

I don't begrudge Cypherdoc not going into detail on dismembering these, because they aren't all that substantial as critic defenses go.  I don't know if it was sincere claim that these "debunk" all concerns for all people reading this or if that is just baiting.

Mistake 1 : Sidechains can protect the value through merged mining.
If at some point in the future, there is a particular SC that consumes the bulk of bitcoins in circulation, there is a non-zero risk to Bitcoin that there will be insufficient bitcoin transactions to support bitcoin mining in the later days.  It will have ended Bitcoin (albeit presumably for something better).  People are not always right, that's how we got to where we are with pervasive central banking

The bolded is what I cannot comprehend.

To suggest such a thing would happen is essentially to suggest that a sidechain would be created that carries all of Bitcoin features and more. So essentially, what you are speculating is that a sidechain could be created that is so innovative it removes the need for the Bitcoin blockchain.

But it begs the question : what features could be so compelling?

Anonymity? My opinion is this should be user-defined?
Faster transactions? This comes at the cost of network security

If such a chain emerges that offers these features in a user-defined manner without any tradeoff, then why should we not welcome it with open arms?

This one is simply wrong.  Further, it makes several claims in succession that are not entirely related.  These are specifically a risk that SC do introduce.  In the same way that if physical bitcoin were what everyone wanted, and we traded those instead, there wouldn't be any Bitcoin TX fees.  These do have greater value in the free market than electronic bitcoins.  There is no peg, what there is, is inclusion and embedding of btc in another block chain which is separately traded off Bitcoin's block chain.  

Analogy to physical bitcoin is asinine. There are transaction fees for every sidechains transactions and every miner is able to process and profit from these. And no, as I have stated in my previous comment, the features of a sidechain are user-defined and so I don't believe it is correct to assume "there wouldn't be any Bitcoin TX fees". There are several reasons for why I would prefer my transaction to take place on the main chain. I don't need anonymity or faster confirmation time for every transactions.

This is your mistake.
SC assures neither of these.
SC does not assure any preserving of the Bitcoin ledger.
The additional features are not in the Bitcoin ledger, they are on the SC.
They are "possible" effects.  You are using the word "can" here and pretending that it means "does", and suggesting that this answers the concern.  Many people do this subconsciously, it is human nature.  Don't feel too bad about it.

The essence of my argument throughout this thread is that the real innovations in sidechains are the utility of 1:1 two-way peg to make additional features possible WITHOUT disrupting the ledger/affecting the scarcity.

You can argue all day that altcoins could be created booted on top of sidechains and that they COULD be a danger to Bitcoin but this is not something that was enabled by sidechains. This risk (altcoins) was always present.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 02, 2014, 10:15:31 PM
 #15387

Considering the apparent serious implementation and backing behind the sidechain, the market starts using it and finds considerable value in it. price of BTC goes UP



why would price do this?

 Huh

People find value in the ability to make anonymous transactions. Buy BTC to use particular sidechain. Price of BTC goes up

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 02, 2014, 10:17:46 PM
 #15388

not sure how that helps.  as you said, only larger actors can afford storing the huge data reqs for MM.  since they are the only ones who can derive income from MM, they push out at the very least solo miners and smaller pools.  that's centralization.
p2ppool would be just plain out of luck for now.

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cypherdoc
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November 02, 2014, 10:18:15 PM
 #15389

Considering the apparent serious implementation and backing behind the sidechain, the market starts using it and finds considerable value in it. price of BTC goes UP



why would price do this?

 Huh

People find value in the ability to make anonymous transactions. Buy BTC to use particular sidechain. Price of BTC goes up

ah, but in your world it's not possible for a sidescam to cause the price of BTC to go down?
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November 02, 2014, 10:25:29 PM
 #15390

MM SC costs a lot of resources.
MM SC has to keep(and collect) all transaction from SC.
No one will be able to keep all sc-blockchain (for 1,000,000,000 SC) and MM them.

this sounds reasonable
Quote
=> There will be only few (1 .. 5 ?) MM SC's
MM will be only used for change bitcoin protocol.



but it doesn't solve the increase in mining centralization as only larger mining pools will be able to MM.
You can choose mining pools. Mining pools operators will offer you more than 1 pool. They will offer you
 a) 1 pool for MM SC1,
 b) 1 pool for MM SC2
 c) 1 pool for MM (SC1+SC2)
 d) 1 pool for NO MM

not sure how that helps.  as you said, only larger actors can afford storing the huge data reqs for MM.  since they are the only ones who can derive income from MM, they push out at the very least solo miners and smaller pools.  that's centralization.
Quote
Quote
and it doesn't solve the increased susceptibility to attack.

Please explain, I do not understand. How somebody will attack.

currently mining pie includes Discus 29%, ghash 18%, Knc 7%.  let's say Austin convinces all 3 of these pools to MM his SC.  well, right there all it would take is for Discus unilaterally to perform a 51% attack.  see Peter Todd explanation as to why this might be beneficial for Discus:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k01du/peter_todd_on_twitter_the_sidechains_paper_is/clgpjpx

>as you said, only larger actors can afford storing the huge data reqs for MM

As I said, there will be only few MM SC. (for purpose of protocol change).
There will be 1B SC's using different security model (oracles, trusted entities, SNARK, .. who knows)

It is possible to create SC what is resilient to 51% attack of MC(every SC what is not MM with MC). This makes 51% attack on MC even more worthless.
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November 02, 2014, 10:28:57 PM
 #15391

I don't begrudge Cypherdoc not going into detail on dismembering these, because they aren't all that substantial as critic defenses go.  I don't know if it was sincere claim that these "debunk" all concerns for all people reading this or if that is just baiting.

Mistake 1 : Sidechains can protect the value through merged mining.
If at some point in the future, there is a particular SC that consumes the bulk of bitcoins in circulation, there is a non-zero risk to Bitcoin that there will be insufficient bitcoin transactions to support bitcoin mining in the later days. It will have ended Bitcoin (albeit presumably for something better).  People are not always right, that's how we got to where we are with pervasive central banking

The bolded is what I cannot comprehend.

To suggest such a thing would happen is essentially to suggest that a sidechain would be created that carries all of Bitcoin features and more. So essentially, what you are speculating is that a sidechain could be created that is so innovative it removes the need for the Bitcoin blockchain.

But it begs the question : what features could be so compelling?

Anonymity? My opinion is this should be user-defined?
Faster transactions? This comes at the cost of network security

like i said above, user anonymity should be a widely sought after feature.  and your security argument is a logical fallacy in that it is perfectly reasonable to expect that faster tx times will be achieved in the future that doesn't effect network security, point being SC's coupled with that innovation will obsolete Bitcoin

Quote

If such a chain emerges that offers these features in a user-defined manner without any tradeoff, then why should we not welcome it with open arms?

you should.  but how inconvenient, insecure, along with identity compromise from having to move all your BTC to a SC every few years.
Quote
This one is simply wrong.  Further, it makes several claims in succession that are not entirely related.  These are specifically a risk that SC do introduce.  In the same way that if physical bitcoin were what everyone wanted, and we traded those instead, there wouldn't be any Bitcoin TX fees.  These do have greater value in the free market than electronic bitcoins.  There is no peg, what there is, is inclusion and embedding of btc in another block chain which is separately traded off Bitcoin's block chain.  

Analogy to physical bitcoin is asinine. There are transaction fees for every sidechains transactions and every miner is able to process and profit from these. And no, as I have stated in my previous comment, the features of a sidechain are user-defined and so I don't believe it is correct to assume "there wouldn't be any Bitcoin TX fees". There are several reasons for why I would prefer my transaction to take place on the main chain. I don't need anonymity or faster confirmation time for every transactions.

This is your mistake.
SC assures neither of these.
SC does not assure any preserving of the Bitcoin ledger.
The additional features are not in the Bitcoin ledger, they are on the SC.
They are "possible" effects.  You are using the word "can" here and pretending that it means "does", and suggesting that this answers the concern.  Many people do this subconsciously, it is human nature.  Don't feel too bad about it.

The essence of my argument throughout this thread is that the real innovations in sidechains are the utility of 1:1 two-way peg to make additional features possible WITHOUT disrupting the ledger/affecting the scarcity.

You can argue all day that altcoins could be created booted on top of sidechains and that they COULD be a danger to Bitcoin but this is not something that was enabled by sidechains. This risk (altcoins) was always present.

if a SC employs sidecoins/altcoins, the risk for Bitcoin is even greater than that of a simple SC alone just paying fees.  miners who defect would now be getting paid not only tx fees but also block rewards on a SC that everybody has migrated to b/c of the innovation.
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November 02, 2014, 10:30:03 PM
 #15392

you could be right about anonymity being a niche feature, altho i'd bet you're wrong on this.  the vast majority of Bitcoiners, i believe, want increased privacy.  as far as faster tx's, you are definitely wrong on this.  ask anyone, "would you rather have your tx confirmed in 1 min or 10min?  every single one of them would pick 1 min.

point being, when the block subsidy in MC runs out in 2140 or sooner, the SC will be competing with the MC simply on tx fees but the SC has the added advantage of faster tx's and/or anonymity.  which chain would you rather be on, especially if you were a miner?

I'd bet the picture your are painting of current BTC user does NOT represent the vast majority of future Bitcoin holder. Privacy should absolutely be user-defined in my opinion and the mainstream, right or wrong, has little need or want for anonymity.

As far as faster tx, remember that they come at the cost of lesser network security. I don't believe you can simply provide faster transactions on a POW algorithm without a tradeoff in security because if that were the case then Bitcoin would've had it by now.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
NewLiberty
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November 02, 2014, 10:32:13 PM
 #15393

I don't begrudge Cypherdoc not going into detail on dismembering these, because they aren't all that substantial as critic defenses go.  I don't know if it was sincere claim that these "debunk" all concerns for all people reading this or if that is just baiting.

Mistake 1 : Sidechains can protect the value through merged mining.
If at some point in the future, there is a particular SC that consumes the bulk of bitcoins in circulation, there is a non-zero risk to Bitcoin that there will be insufficient bitcoin transactions to support bitcoin mining in the later days.  It will have ended Bitcoin (albeit presumably for something better).  People are not always right, that's how we got to where we are with pervasive central banking

The bolded is what I cannot comprehend.

To suggest such a thing would happen is essentially to suggest that a sidechain would be created that carries all of Bitcoin features and more. So essentially, what you are speculating is that a sidechain could be created that is so innovative it removes the need for the Bitcoin blockchain.

But it begs the question : what features could be so compelling?
That isn't what begs the question means.

Anonymity? My opinion is this should be user-defined?
Faster transactions? This comes at the cost of network security

If such a chain emerges that offers these features in a user-defined manner without any tradeoff, then why should we not welcome it with open arms?

You may indeed welcome it.  But others may have many reasons not to do so.
It raises the risk to the minority.
It is similar to the problem of democratic voting.  One wins, one loses.  If you do not agree with the majority, you lose.
So "we" in this case is a subset of "we" that may not include cypherdoc or any other particular person.
Do you see why this is not a compelling argument?

This one is simply wrong.  Further, it makes several claims in succession that are not entirely related.  These are specifically a risk that SC do introduce.  In the same way that if physical bitcoin were what everyone wanted, and we traded those instead, there wouldn't be any Bitcoin TX fees.  These do have greater value in the free market than electronic bitcoins.  There is no peg, what there is, is inclusion and embedding of btc in another block chain which is separately traded off Bitcoin's block chain.  

Analogy to physical bitcoin is asinine. There are transaction fees for every sidechains transactions and every miner is able to process and profit from these. And no, as I have stated in my previous comment, the features of a sidechain are user-defined and so I don't believe it is correct to assume "there wouldn't be any Bitcoin TX fees". There are several reasons for why I would prefer my transaction to take place on the main chain. I don't need anonymity or faster confirmation time for every transactions.
Your opinion is noted.  We disagree.  I think it is a closer analogy to any of those you've used.
The bitcoin is contained within the SC similar to how it is contained within a physical bitcoin.  The physical bitcoin offers features that are not available on the main chain.  Transactions with physical bitcoin do not affect the Bitcoin block chain.  Huh, asinine... ok

Analogy aside, consider here that you are postulating that the SC features may bleed out some of the contained bitcoin to be used for TX fees and claiming that this potential feature which has never been implemented is going to happen, and so no one should have any worries about this?

This is your mistake.
SC assures neither of these.
SC does not assure any preserving of the Bitcoin ledger.
The additional features are not in the Bitcoin ledger, they are on the SC.
They are "possible" effects.  You are using the word "can" here and pretending that it means "does", and suggesting that this answers the concern.  Many people do this subconsciously, it is human nature.  Don't feel too bad about it.

The essence of my argument throughout this thread is that the real innovations in sidechains are the utility of 1:1 two-way peg to make additional features possible WITHOUT disrupting the ledger/affecting the scarcity.

You can argue all day that altcoins could be created booted on top of sidechains and that they COULD be a danger to Bitcoin but this is not something that was enabled by sidechains. This risk (altcoins) was always present.

Right...  There is no peg.  You claiming that there is one does not make it so.  The SC is a container for bitcoin with different characteristics.  This is not the same thing as a peg.
(a peg is not necessarily a good thing in any case)

Are you entirely certain you know what a Side Chain is?  Your explanation of them makes them sound really horrible.

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November 02, 2014, 10:35:57 PM
 #15394

Considering the apparent serious implementation and backing behind the sidechain, the market starts using it and finds considerable value in it. price of BTC goes UP



why would price do this?

 Huh

People find value in the ability to make anonymous transactions. Buy BTC to use particular sidechain. Price of BTC goes up

ah, but in your world it's not possible for a sidescam to cause the price of BTC to go down?

No.

Is the price of BTC going down because of altscams? In fact, a successful sidescam might push BTC's value up since it would essentially increase the scarcity of the remaining coins.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 02, 2014, 10:38:16 PM
 #15395

you could be right about anonymity being a niche feature, altho i'd bet you're wrong on this.  the vast majority of Bitcoiners, i believe, want increased privacy.  as far as faster tx's, you are definitely wrong on this.  ask anyone, "would you rather have your tx confirmed in 1 min or 10min?  every single one of them would pick 1 min.

point being, when the block subsidy in MC runs out in 2140 or sooner, the SC will be competing with the MC simply on tx fees but the SC has the added advantage of faster tx's and/or anonymity.  which chain would you rather be on, especially if you were a miner?

I'd bet the picture your are painting of current BTC user does NOT represent the vast majority of future Bitcoin holder. Privacy should absolutely be user-defined in my opinion and the mainstream, right or wrong, has little need or want for anonymity.

As far as faster tx, remember that they come at the cost of lesser network security. I don't believe you can simply provide faster transactions on a POW algorithm without a tradeoff in security because if that were the case then Bitcoin would've had it by now.



you are seriously twisting your argument to support your claim.  who knows the future?  to assume there will never be any innovation that gets added to a SC on top of a MC clone that won't make it more attractive to migrate to is asinine.  that's what SC are for!  and your security argument is a logical fallacy in that it is perfectly reasonable to expect that faster tx times will be achieved in the future that doesn't effect network security, point being SC's coupled with that innovation will obsolete Bitcoin.

and the whitepaper even acknowledges this migratory effect.  why won't you?
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November 02, 2014, 10:39:21 PM
 #15396

Considering the apparent serious implementation and backing behind the sidechain, the market starts using it and finds considerable value in it. price of BTC goes UP



why would price do this?

 Huh

People find value in the ability to make anonymous transactions. Buy BTC to use particular sidechain. Price of BTC goes up

ah, but in your world it's not possible for a sidescam to cause the price of BTC to go down?

No.

Is the price of BTC going down because of altscams? In fact, a successful sidescam might push BTC's value up since it would essentially increase the scarcity of the remaining coins.

wow, listen up everyone!  SC's, whether scam or not, can only make the price of BTC go up!  never down!
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November 02, 2014, 10:42:29 PM
 #15397

Considering the apparent serious implementation and backing behind the sidechain, the market starts using it and finds considerable value in it. price of BTC goes UP



why would price do this?

 Huh

People find value in the ability to make anonymous transactions. Buy BTC to use particular sidechain. Price of BTC goes up

ah, but in your world it's not possible for a sidescam to cause the price of BTC to go down?

No.

Is the price of BTC going down because of altscams? In fact, a successful sidescam might push BTC's value up since it would essentially increase the scarcity of the remaining coins.

Really, you ought to stop.
It is as though you are trying to convince people to hate Side Chains by making inaccurate statements one after another.
1) altscams can and do decrease BTC prices in more ways than one.
2) Consider a scan....If I introduce a SC with a hole in it, that lets me collect all the SC coin and then sell all the BTC connected to them?
There are many possible scams, only a failed one (that is an ineffective scam) might increase scarcity.

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November 02, 2014, 10:56:52 PM
 #15398

That isn't what begs the question means.
Cheesy

touché!

You may indeed welcome it.  But others may have many reasons not to do so.
It raises the risk to the minority.
It is similar to the problem of democratic voting.  One wins, one loses.  If you do not agree with the majority, you lose.
So "we" in this case is a subset of "we" that may not include cypherdoc or any other particular person.
Do you see why this is not a compelling argument?

No. I don't, because any evolution in the technology of money that serves the greater good should win.
"You may indeed welcome Bitcoin. But others may have many reasons not to do so. It raises the risk to the (cash) minority."

Your opinion is noted.  We disagree.  I think it is a closer analogy to any of those you've used.
The bitcoin is contained within the SC similar to how it is contained within a physical bitcoin.  The physical bitcoin offers features that are not available on the main chain.  Transactions with physical bitcoin do not affect the Bitcoin block chain.  Huh, asinine... ok

Is the physical bitcoin mined and profitable to the miners? Is the digital Bitcoin redeemable from the physical bitcoin at the algorithm level? Yes, asinine.

Analogy aside, consider here that you are postulating that the SC features may bleed out some of the contained bitcoin to be used for TX fees and claiming that this potential feature which has never been implemented is going to happen, and so no one should have any worries about this?

Not certain what you are insinuating here?

Right...  There is no peg.  You claiming that there is one does not make it so.  The SC is a container for bitcoin with different characteristics.  This is not the same thing as a peg.
(a peg is not necessarily a good thing in any case)

Are you entirely certain you know what a Side Chain is?  Your explanation of them makes them sound really horrible.

There is no peg  Huh But there absolutely is and should be a peg. The SC is a cointainer for bitcoin yes, but the innovation the two-way peg.

Correct.  I think its worth clarifying that the peg is algorithmic, because its seems from the thread that some people may not understand that.  You, personally, can ask the network automatically to swap unlimited quantities of BTC on the sidechain for BTC on the main bitcoin chain.

Maybe you mean there should not necessarily be a peg? Sure, but then it becomes just another altcoin.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 02, 2014, 11:06:29 PM
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Really, you ought to stop.
It is as though you are trying to convince people to hate Side Chains by making inaccurate statements one after another.
1) altscams can and do decrease BTC prices in more ways than one.
2) Consider a scan....If I introduce a SC with a hole in it, that lets me collect all the SC coin and then sell all the BTC connected to them?
There are many possible scams, only a failed one (that is an ineffective scam) might increase scarcity.

If you will allow me I will take back what I said. Foolishly I did not consider the scammer selling off the acquired BTC... I wouldn't  Grin

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 02, 2014, 11:14:41 PM
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like i said above, user anonymity should be a widely sought after feature.  and your security argument is a logical fallacy in that it is perfectly reasonable to expect that faster tx times will be achieved in the future that doesn't effect network security, point being SC's coupled with that innovation will obsolete Bitcoin

If it is so then it will be implemented in the mainchain

you should.  but how inconvenient, insecure, along with identity compromise from having to move all your BTC to a SC every few years.

As inconvenient, insecure as it was to move your fiat to BTC.

Every few years? the scenario I'm proposing would need to be, in my mind, a paradigm shift of the order of fiat money/Bitcoin. I wouldn't bet on such innovation pace because as I have said previously, Bitcoin is close to as good as it gets as is.

if a SC employs sidecoins/altcoins, the risk for Bitcoin is even greater than that of a simple SC alone just paying fees.  miners who defect would now be getting paid not only tx fees but also block rewards on a SC that everybody has migrated to b/c of the innovation.

That's not what I'm saying. My point is the sidecoin scenario is no different than any altcoin ie. the sidechains does not enable them in any significant way.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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