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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2011150 times)
cypherdoc
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November 04, 2014, 03:10:15 PM
 #15581


Think of it, govSC may use compromised cryptographic primitives giving them a back door on all the money.
Then they essentially own key escrow on all the coins and can also automatically tax them as needed.  Seize criminal assets etc.
That pretty much solves all the government's problems.

I agree with you. I'll not keep my BTC in govSC. But I would rather trade on gov secured exchange than on MtGox.
If SC are implemented in Bitcoin then Bitcoin is my first choice.

what's your answer again to the argument that all these billions of SC's are stealing tx fees away from Bitcoin miners?
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Odalv
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November 04, 2014, 03:20:35 PM
 #15582

scenario:  SC + sidecoin + innovation + MM + scBTC

is it possible for scBTC to take advantage of the innovation or is that impossible b/c the SC MM is specific to sidecoin?

I do not understand how creating more units (sidecoin) can be advantage.
I think SC + innovation + scBTC is better chain.  And if it is better than MC then innovation will be implemented into MC.
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November 04, 2014, 03:21:37 PM
 #15583


Think of it, govSC may use compromised cryptographic primitives giving them a back door on all the money.
Then they essentially own key escrow on all the coins and can also automatically tax them as needed.  Seize criminal assets etc.
That pretty much solves all the government's problems.

I agree with you. I'll not keep my BTC in govSC. But I would rather trade on gov secured exchange than on MtGox.
If SC are implemented in Bitcoin then Bitcoin is my first choice.

Exchange security doesn't require a government though... because multikey cryptography, or things like the Counterparty DEX.  So its a false dichotomy in either gov secured exchange vs MtGox.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
NewLiberty
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November 04, 2014, 03:25:51 PM
 #15584

scenario:  SC + sidecoin + innovation + MM + scBTC

is it possible for scBTC to take advantage of the innovation or is that impossible b/c the SC MM is specific to sidecoin?

I do not understand how creating more units (sidecoin) can be advantage.
I think SC + innovation + scBTC is better chain.  And if it is better than MC then innovation will be implemented into MC.

Except that we know from experience that this is not true.  MC ossifies or has unbreakable social contracts, so better doesn't get implemented into MC.

Instead what SC offers is that MC may 95% migrate to it and leave behind those that don't agree that the change is better.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
cbeast
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November 04, 2014, 03:27:29 PM
 #15585

what's your answer again to the argument that all these billions of SC's are stealing tx fees away from Bitcoin miners?
Are you concerned about revenue or block size? Isn't the point of SCs to allow Bitcoin to scale by mitigating its transactions through other chains?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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November 04, 2014, 03:28:03 PM
 #15586


Think of it, govSC may use compromised cryptographic primitives giving them a back door on all the money.
Then they essentially own key escrow on all the coins and can also automatically tax them as needed.  Seize criminal assets etc.
That pretty much solves all the government's problems.

I agree with you. I'll not keep my BTC in govSC. But I would rather trade on gov secured exchange than on MtGox.
If SC are implemented in Bitcoin then Bitcoin is my first choice.

what's your answer again to the argument that all these billions of SC's are stealing tx fees away from Bitcoin miners?

win:win
Smaller MC -> save resources. There are a lot thing  SC cannot do.
1. create new BTC
2. change amount of BTC in SC.

And there will be thousands SC (every company can have 1 SC for internal accounting, and 1 for public btcShares)
A lot of transactions for MC :-)

This SC transaction(IN/OUT rebalacing) will cost more. (they will be bigger)

Transaction fee per block is around 0.15 BTC now. No big deal for miners compared to 25 BTC (12.5 BTC, 6.75 BTC ... )
NewLiberty
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November 04, 2014, 03:30:53 PM
 #15587

Transaction fee per block is around 0.15 BTC now. No big deal for miners compared to 25 BTC (12.5 BTC, 6.75 BTC ... )
I think we all agree that NOW is not the basis of this concern.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
justusranvier
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November 04, 2014, 03:34:03 PM
 #15588

Isn't the point of SCs to allow Bitcoin to scale by mitigating its transactions through other chains?
if that is the point, it won't work.

Sidechains only have SPV security. If the entire main chain network does not validate a particular sidechain, then the resources required to produce fraudulent SPV proofs that redeem sidechains units for locked bitcoin are fewer.

If every node in the main chain network needs to watch every sidechain, there is no scalability improvement.

If every node on the main chain network does not watch every sidechain, then the security of the sidechains is low.
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November 04, 2014, 03:36:39 PM
 #15589


I'm sure that OT is SC (it looks to me as Federated 2-way-peg)

Different in many ways but the fundamental difference is that you don't need to change the Bitcoin protocol. And MM is not logical step in the evolution.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Odalv
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November 04, 2014, 03:37:02 PM
 #15590

Transaction fee per block is around 0.15 BTC now. No big deal for miners compared to 25 BTC (12.5 BTC, 6.75 BTC ... )
I think we all agree that NOW is not the basis of this concern.

I cannot imagine that there will ever exist somebody who can hold 1 copy of all world transactions. (if bitcoin is used by everyone)  and to keep bitcoin decentralized you need at least 5 copies. (100,000 copies is better :-) )
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November 04, 2014, 03:43:04 PM
 #15591

I cannot imagine that there will ever exist somebody who can hold 1 copy of all world transactions. (if bitcoin is used by everyone)  and to keep bitcoin decentralized you need at least 5 copies. (100,000 copies is better :-) )

If this were desired, what would prevent it?

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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November 04, 2014, 03:45:28 PM
 #15592

scenario:  SC + sidecoin + innovation + MM + scBTC

is it possible for scBTC to take advantage of the innovation or is that impossible b/c the SC MM is specific to sidecoin?

I do not understand how creating more units (sidecoin) can be advantage.
I think SC + innovation + scBTC is better chain.  And if it is better than MC then innovation will be implemented into MC.

Innovation = higher price for desirable feature. We are the minority when it comes to hard money as a desirable feature.

You won't lock your BTC in but if you sell your BTC someone will arb.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
btcney
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November 04, 2014, 03:53:24 PM
 #15593

NO SIDECHAIN DISCUSSION BELOW THIS LINE:


_______________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________ __________________________


            ███           ▄▄▄████████▄▄▄           ███       ▀███          ▀██▄ ▄██▀          ███▀
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            ███     ███                    ███     ███               ███▄██▀       ▀██▄██▀
            ███     ███                    ███     ███                ▀███▀         ▀███▀
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           ███▀       ▀███▄            ▄███▀       ▀███                ███           ███
██▄▄▄  ▄▄▄███▀          ▀████▄▄    ▄▄████▀          ▀███▄▄▄  ▄▄▄██     ███           ███
▀▀████████▀▀              ▀▀▀████████▀▀▀              ▀▀████████▀▀     ███           ███
........T H E   F U T U R E.................
......................o f   B E A U T Y
........


 ▀█▄             ▄▄▄▄▄▄
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cypherdoc
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November 04, 2014, 03:59:25 PM
 #15594

what's your answer again to the argument that all these billions of SC's are stealing tx fees away from Bitcoin miners?
Are you concerned about revenue or block size? Isn't the point of SCs to allow Bitcoin to scale by mitigating its transactions through other chains?

Sure if you ensure that dynamic. But why would anyone do their tx's on Mc if they can do them better on SC?
cypherdoc
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November 04, 2014, 04:00:45 PM
 #15595

scenario:  SC + sidecoin + innovation + MM + scBTC

is it possible for scBTC to take advantage of the innovation or is that impossible b/c the SC MM is specific to sidecoin?

I do not understand how creating more units (sidecoin) can be advantage.
I think SC + innovation + scBTC is better chain.  And if it is better than MC then innovation will be implemented into MC.
How about answering the question?
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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November 04, 2014, 04:02:52 PM
 #15596

Isn't the point of SCs to allow Bitcoin to scale by mitigating its transactions through other chains?
if that is the point, it won't work.

Sidechains only have SPV security. If the entire main chain network does not validate a particular sidechain, then the resources required to produce fraudulent SPV proofs that redeem sidechains units for locked bitcoin are fewer.

If every node in the main chain network needs to watch every sidechain, there is no scalability improvement.

If every node on the main chain network does not watch every sidechain, then the security of the sidechains is low.
The onus of SPV security is on the person risking their bitcoins. Bitcoin users don't care if the side chains succeed or fail. Bitcoin users don't care if those bitcoins go back to transacting or are lost forever. If the sidechain security is poor then the market will choose a better side chain. Bitcon doesn't need to see what is going on in the side chain, it only needs to see if it is broadcasting bitcoin transactions, which it should only do rarely.

I think somehow you believe that side chains are making actual bitcoin transactions, when they are actually just artificially Bitcoin flavored altcoins with a magical bridge to Bitcoin.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
cypherdoc
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November 04, 2014, 04:03:46 PM
 #15597


Think of it, govSC may use compromised cryptographic primitives giving them a back door on all the money.
Then they essentially own key escrow on all the coins and can also automatically tax them as needed.  Seize criminal assets etc.
That pretty much solves all the government's problems.

I agree with you. I'll not keep my BTC in govSC. But I would rather trade on gov secured exchange than on MtGox.
If SC are implemented in Bitcoin then Bitcoin is my first choice.

what's your answer again to the argument that all these billions of SC's are stealing tx fees away from Bitcoin miners?

win:win
Smaller MC -> save resources. There are a lot thing  SC cannot do.
1. create new BTC
2. change amount of BTC in SC.

And there will be thousands SC (every company can have 1 SC for internal accounting, and 1 for public btcShares)
A lot of transactions for MC :-)

This SC transaction(IN/OUT rebalacing) will cost more. (they will be bigger)

Transaction fee per block is around 0.15 BTC now. No big deal for miners compared to 25 BTC (12.5 BTC, 6.75 BTC ... )

MM does not save resources. It forces miners to keep track of more data and this leads to centralization by shutting out smaller miners.
cbeast
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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November 04, 2014, 04:07:12 PM
 #15598

what's your answer again to the argument that all these billions of SC's are stealing tx fees away from Bitcoin miners?
Are you concerned about revenue or block size? Isn't the point of SCs to allow Bitcoin to scale by mitigating its transactions through other chains?

Sure if you ensure that dynamic. But why would anyone do their tx's on Mc if they can do them better on SC?
They don't necessarily do them better. They have risk, but as minimal risk as possible. If they do in fact end up doing them better, then the MC will need to be improved. The SCs just buy time and take all the risk.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
Odalv
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November 04, 2014, 04:08:39 PM
 #15599

scenario:  SC + sidecoin + innovation + MM + scBTC

is it possible for scBTC to take advantage of the innovation or is that impossible b/c the SC MM is specific to sidecoin?

I do not understand how creating more units (sidecoin) can be advantage.
I think SC + innovation + scBTC is better chain.  And if it is better than MC then innovation will be implemented into MC.
How about answering the question?

What about telling me what  innovation is ? and what this innovation will do with current Bitcoin.  
Yes there can be innovation what kills bitcoins with or without SC. (Bitcoin already has SCs ... How do you stop them ? )
Odalv
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November 04, 2014, 04:14:41 PM
 #15600

what's your answer again to the argument that all these billions of SC's are stealing tx fees away from Bitcoin miners?
Are you concerned about revenue or block size? Isn't the point of SCs to allow Bitcoin to scale by mitigating its transactions through other chains?

Sure if you ensure that dynamic. But why would anyone do their tx's on Mc if they can do them better on SC?

You cannot transfer thru SC bigger amount then SC has allocated for arbitrage.
1. You want transfer 100 BTC  but SC has only 5 btc ready for arbitrage -> you need 20 transactions
2. If MC cost less than 20 SC transactions then you will use MC

equilibrium will be found  for MC fees and SC fees.
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